Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment

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Request name	Motions	Initiated	Votes
Aspersions cast by Thryduulf		16 July 2024	0/6/1

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Clarification and Amendment requests

Request name	Motions	Case	Posted
Clarification request: TimidGuy ban appeal	none	none	29 April 2013
[[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment#Clarification request: WP:ARBPIA/Jerusalem|Clarification request: WP:ARBPIA/Jerusalem]]	none	none	28 April 2013

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Requests for clarification and amendment

Use this section to request clarification or amendment of a closed Arbitration Committee case or decision.

• Requests for clarification are used to ask for further guidance or clarification about an existing completed Arbitration Committee case or decision.
• Requests for amendment are used to ask for an amendment or extension of existing sanctions (for instance, because the sanctions are ineffective, contain a loophole, or no longer cover a sufficiently wide topic); or appeal for the removal of sanctions (including bans).

To file a clarification or amendment request: (you must use this format!)

1. Choose one of the following options and open the page in a new tab or window:
   • Click here to file a request for clarification of an arbitration decision or procedure.
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2. Save your request and check that it looks how you think it should and says what you intended.
3. If your request will affect or involve other users (including any users you have named as parties), you must notify these editors of your submission; you can use {{subst:Arbitration CA notice|SECTIONTITLE}} to do this.
4. Add the diffs of the talk page notifications under the applicable header of the request.

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Clarification request: TimidGuy ban appeal

Initiated by MastCell ^Talk at 18:26, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

• MastCell (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (initiator)
• Will Beback (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) ([1])
• ImperfectlyInformed (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) ([2])
• IRWolfie- (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) ([3])
• SlimVirgin (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) ([4])
• Thryduulf (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) ([5])

(The list of affected users is simply a list of those who commented in the bottom subthread of this discussion. I've also posted a general note in that thread notifying readers of this request).

Statement by MastCell

In the TimidGuy ban appeal case, Will Beback (talk · contribs) was indefinitely banned from Wikipedia. In March 2013, Will stated on his talk page that he had appealed the ban to ArbCom, and that his appeal had been rejected ([6]).

Pursuant to this lengthy but inconclusive discussion, I am requesting the release of the simple vote count by which Will's appeal was declined (that is, a tally of which Arbs supported, opposed, or abstained on the appeal). Failing that, I am requesting a concise explanation of why such a tally cannot be released.

I am not requesting the release of any privacy-sensitive information, although of course individual Arbitrators are free to comment on their reasoning if they choose. MastCell ^Talk 18:33, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

SilkTork, I am not asking for the release of any internal deliberations. A simple "yes", "no", or "no comment" next to each Arb's name would suffice. If such a process didn't take place, then perhaps a one-word summary of each Arb's position is not too much ask. Failing that, perhaps you could explain why this information needs to remain secret. Finally, while I understand that you believe a vote tally "serves no purpose", a number of editors in good standing have requested the information as a matter of accountability, and clearly believe that it serves that purpose. MastCell ^Talk 20:03, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Comment by Collect

I am unaware of any precedent for such a request having any effect on ArbCom, and suggest that iteration of the same points is unlikely to have different results from the request made a short time back. While I am in favour of following "process" I find multiple requests are unlikely to result in much at all, other than many hours and many thousands of characters of discussion leading nowhere. I see no procedural, policy, or guideline basis for demanding vote tallies. Collect (talk) 19:36, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Statement by ImperfectlyInformed

Will Beback's ban occurred in public (see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/TimidGuy_ban_appeal/Proposed_decision#Will_Beback:_remedies for the vote tally) largely as a result of public evidence, presented above the decision. We know the original story. Even if we don't know what Will's emails to Jimbo looked like, ArbCom unanimously affirmed that Will Beback emailed Jimbo with allegations, and so on. It is unclear why the ban appeal needs to have special treatment such that even the vote tally needs to be kept secret. The denied appeal was never revealed to the community and no official statement was made; Will Beback said he also did not receive an explanation in its rejection. Will Beback apologized at length at his talkpage after the appeal denial (we don't know what his communications looked like, but he has said "I would be happy for any of my statements to the ArbCom to be made public"). Regardless of the result of this request, I intend to edit the policy and open a RfC on the change (I'll hold off so we don't have too many pots on the fire). There is, incidentally, precedent for revealing votes when the appeal is successful (such as Russavia's unblock appeal tally currently at WT:BASC).

On a larger issue, the purpose behind this goes back to Churchill's quote (now a cliche) that "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried" (called the Churchill Hypothesis in academic literature). ArbCom members have expressed concern about politicizing, and I understand that there is some purpose to being more deliberative than an angry mob. However, ArbCom is elected, and we need to know the votes to hold them accountable for their positions.

On a further note, this position of not allowing Will to have a second chance, or even a hint of a public hearing, is plain discouraging to other long-term editors as it suggests a basic lack of fairness and respect for those who have dedicated many hours into improving this encyclopedia. I should also note that I proposed a compromise: a revote, in public, with no requirement to repeat the prior vote. II | (t - c) 20:59, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Statement by NE Ent

Arbitration policy: Committee deliberations are often held privately though the Committee will make public detailed rationales for decisions related to cases, unless the matter is unsuitable for public discussion for privacy, legal or similar reasons. (emphasis mine) While I agree the "working notes" of committee should remain private, a consensus summary statement and vote tallies doesn't seem unreasonable per committee policy. Did the committee make any public announcement? I've reviewed the Timid Guy case and AC/N and am not seeing any. NE Ent 21:50, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Absurd. The scope of the committee does not extend to redefining commonly used English words. It should either follow the policy as written or change the policy to follow practice. The former is preferrable per the research quoted in last October's signpost

ensuring participation and transparency is crucial for maintaining the stability of self-governing communities.
— Schroeder, Wagner, Journal of the American Society for Information Science and Technology

NE Ent 22:48, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

References

Statement by IRWolfie-

@Roger Davies, as II has pointed out, Arbcom already releases tallies. IRWolfie- (talk) 22:08, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

@Salvio Are you suggesting that a clarification about a decision made by arbcom related to a case should not be done here? Are you suggesting that this appeal is not a decision related to a case? IRWolfie- (talk) 22:10, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

@Newyorkbrad I am sure they did vote in good faith, which is why I don't understand why other arbs are declining this measure. The alternative is, that Arbs who have declined to comment will be asked for clarification at the next election in the questions; the tin will be kicked down the road but for no apparent reason that I can discern. It isn't as though people are going to start waving pitchforks at the arbs. The justification that tallies can't be given because it violates a sacred trust or some such just doesn't appear to add up, particularly considering that other tallies have been released. IRWolfie- (talk) 23:36, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

• Perhaps a partial tally could be released, with those refusing to release their position noted as such? IRWolfie- (talk) 23:38, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

• How many sitting arbs actually voted? IRWolfie- (talk) 08:58, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Statement by SlimVirgin

I support the request that the vote tally be released. If the candidates stand for election again, there are editors who may want to support or oppose based on this issue alone, so we need the information to be an informed electorate.

I would like to add an additional request, namely that the committee agree to re-hear an appeal from Will now in public. I understand from the BASC page that once an appeal is decided, the committee "will not revisit it earlier than six months except at the request of a sitting arbitrator." I'm therefore asking that one sitting arbitrator agree to ask the committee to hear Will's appeal again now, given that the circumstances of his first appeal have caused concern.

Roger suggested below that Will do this, but as he can't edit he's not able to request it here. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 22:54, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Statement by RegentsPark

I know nought about TimidGuy or Will Beback and why they were banned. However, on the face of it, it doesn't seem unreasonable to ask for the vote on the appeal. Straw poll or formal vote, one hopes that the process was clear enough to make this information readily available. To RogerDavis's point below, it appears that all that is requested is a tally of votes, not for the release of information "lock, stock and barrel". --regentspark (comment) 01:15, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Will Beback

Request for public rehearing

I have made public and private apologies for my past behavior,[7][8][9] and committed to not repeating the same mistakes. Despite that, my appeal was denied without explanation or indication of how the committee voted. Since then I have seen various, sometimes conflicting reasons for the denial, or the initial ban, and unclear statements as to whether or not the committee even voted on my appeal. For those reasons, I am requesting a public rehearing of my appeal to my ban which resulted from Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/TimidGuy ban appeal. This is per the invitation of Roger Davies.[10]   Will Beback  talk  02:02, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Posted here by Will. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 02:07, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

• Decline. It wasn't a vote tally, it was a discussion held on the understanding that it was held in camera. Also, such a vote tally serves no purpose. Will can appeal again in six months, and hopefully when he does, he will address the concerns that have been shared with him. That is the appropriate way of dealing with this matter. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 19:35, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

• Decline release of tallies. Tallies in straw polls are informal documents created purely for the purpose of seeing which way the wind is blowing. They help They are part of the process of deliberating. What's more, they are rarely binary and usually express nuanced thoughts and positions. By releasing tallies, the committee would be releasing, in effect, private working papers. The committee handles too much sensitive stuff to establish a precedent that it should disclose deliberations lock, stock and barrel whenever the torches and pitchforks come out. If something is done in private with a reasonable and legitimate expectation of privacy, it's private. On the other hand, there has never been a problem with individual arbitrators stating, should they wish to do, what their position is on a particular issue.  Roger Davies ^talk 20:02, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
  • @II. The obvious thing to do is for WBB to request a review of his ban here. I have no difficulty with that at all and it mystifies me why this hasn't been done. Instead we've got this request based purely on procedural stuff, which isn't really of that much significance. (I've added "release of tallies" to my Decline above, to make it clearer what I'm declining.)  Roger Davies ^talk 21:25, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
• If MastCell wants to factor this failure to unban Will Beback into his vote come December 2013/4, he should be able to. I am disappointed in Arbitrators who opined that the appeal ought to be dismissed and are choosing not to reveal that fact to the public. NW (Talk) 20:52, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
• MastCell, this is not what clarification/amendment requests are for. In my opinion, if you wish to know how an individual arb voted, you should ask him on his talk page. That said, I believe that a more important question for Will to ask would be "why was my appeal declined?", so that he can take that into account when appealing next. This request should be archived. Salvio ^{Let's talk about it!} 21:32, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
  • NE Ent, the policy you quote only refers to cases, not to appeals; to my knowledge, the Committee has never made a public announcement whenever an appeal gets declined (considering BASC receives many appeals per week, that would be unwieldy). Declined appeals are usually only discussed with the appellant. Salvio ^{Let's talk about it!} 21:57, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
    • Are you suggesting that this appeal is not a decision related to a case? I believe that, according to current practice, appeals are not decisions related to cases, at least not in the sense meant by Wikipedia:Arbitration/Policy#Transparency and confidentiality: declined appeals have never been publically discussed. Salvio ^{Let's talk about it!} 22:23, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
• My internal comment when we considered this appeal in February was, in substance: "For us to decline this appeal, this long after the decision was issued and despite Will Beback's note to us, would be to say that Will Beback is one of Wikipedia's worst editors: that there is no set of restrictions and no amount of guidance that we could provide that would allow him to edit productively and within policy on any topic; or that the way he crossed the line with respect to TimidGuy was so unforgiveable that, to revive and modify a well-known phrase, he can never again be a Wikipedian. Given Will Beback's record of contributions, and despite his various failings, I am not prepared to say that." Accordingly, my vote was to grant the appeal and allow Will Beback to return, subject to appropriately tailored restrictions on his editing to reduce the likelihood of further problems. Because the majority voted to decline the appeal, we did not reach the issue of what the appropriate conditions for a return might have been. I do not feel at liberty to set forth the votes or comments of my colleagues, but I would stress that each of them commented and voted in good faith based on his or her evaluation of the original case and the appeal. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:30, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
• I didn't vote in the appeal because large parts of the appeal challenges the findings made in the original arbitration case, but I was unable to find the time to fully examine and evaluate the voluminous public and private evidence and discussions related to that case, and hence could not possibly reach an informed decision. As to whether the tally should be released, I'll defer to my colleagues who have actually voted in the matter. T. Canens (talk) 02:31, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
• There's no policy reason to release tallies for ban appeals. On occasion, we have used more formal votes as a clearer way of seeing where the arbs stand (for instance, if there are a number of options for unblock conditions, etc). But that's not applied retroactively, nor should it. As to entertaining Will's appeal earlier than six months, I don't see any reason why the consensus (or, depending on how you look at it, lack of consensus) that he should be unblocked even on narrow conditions would have changed, especially as a result of this carousel of RfCs, noticeboard posts and clarification requests. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 13:09, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
• I agree with T. Canens that finding the time to fully examine and evaluate the voluminous public and private evidence and discussions related to that case is indeed a problem. If arbitrators were expected to review even recent cases with the expectation of reversing or overturning them, the workload would be too much (some ban appeals that focus on righting past injustices as perceived by the appellant would require reviewing years and years of e-mail and on-wiki edits, which is just not possible). It is much better to take an approach whereby banned editors accept or move on from the details of a case, and accept that a return to editing will need to be under restrictions, and then gradually request those restrictions be lifted (rather than argue about them at the time of requesting a return to editing). On this particular matter, I agree with David Fuchs. There needs to be an acceptance that this appeal has failed, and a recognition that this formal on-wiki stage is the last step in the process of seeking clarification on the appeal. I do think that a more formal response here, as opposed to the ones provided at WT:BASC, was needed, but that should now be an end to the matter until the six months has elapsed. tldr: what SilkTork said. Carcharoth (talk) 23:22, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

---

Clarification request: WP:ARBPIA/Jerusalem

This is the page which is the subject of this proceeding: Talk:Jerusalem/2013_RfC_discussion.

Initiated by Steve, Sm8900 (talk) at 02:00, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

• sm8900 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
• Mr. Stradivarius (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) [11]
• Pgallert (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) [12]
• RegentsPark (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) [13]
• Keilana (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) [14]
• Ravpapa (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) [15]
• Evanh2008 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) [16]
• Dailycare (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) [17]
• Nishidani (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) [18]
• FormerIP (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) [19]
• The Devil's Advocate (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) [20]
• Tariqabjotu (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) [21]
• Sean.hoyland (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) [22]
• ClaudeReigns (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) [23]
• Zero0000 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) [24]
• Nableezy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) [25]
• Mor2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) [26]
• Sepsis II (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) [27]
• Hertz1888 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) [28]
• BritishWatcher (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) [29]
• Dlv999 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) [30]
• ZScarpia (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) [31]
• Ezzex (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) [32]

Notes by Sm8900 in regards to intent of process

Suggestion on process

I am reposting a note which I posted elsewhere, with a suggestion on how perhaps we could improve this processs. this suggestion was sort of my reason for posting this whole thing in the first place. --Sm8900 (talk) 17:34, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Suggestion: Hi there, all. this is just a suggestion. In the future, I think that any time that Arbcomm launches a process to discuss an RFC, then Arbcom or the moderator of the process should provide a set of the possible wordings or options which may be offered in the future RFC.

Then participants in the process for designing that RFC should be given the chance to say whether they are for or against each of those options, and why.

if we permit all discussion participants to offer their own options and to argue over that, then the process can become quickly derailed, and we may never get around to the RFC itself which was the reason for convening that process in the first place. just a thought. hope you don't mind. thanks. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 19:41, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Note on reason for process

by the way, one reason I made this a request for clarification is that I left notes on the personal talk pages for several arbitrators. However, I did not receive a reply,. So, based on the fact that I did not receive any reply at all, even when i tried to conduct this discussion on an informal basis with individual members of Arbcomm, I felt that it was advisable to post this. I appreciate your help. thanks. --Sm8900 (talk) 13:51, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Reply to Salvio

I would like to thank Salvio for his note, and would like to reply. Salvio, I will try to be equally frank. In my opinion, I think this process really started out with some good intentions. but I think the results are not what Arbcomm had hoped for, since their goal was to provide a process which would make the design process for an RFC more easier. I know it is not Arbcomm's intent to inflict counter-productive processes on Wikipedia, and they intended to make things more better for our editing community. in my opinion the the resulting process is very much counter to what Arbcomm intended or desired. I don't think the design process for an RFC should take so long that actually launching the RFC itself becomes an afterthought, or is even made to seem relatively unimportant due to the length of this design process. my point is, Arbcomm itself should be notified if a process which it mandated turns out to not have achieved the desired result, and in fact ends up being just as laborious as the conventional process which it was meant to replace.

I do appreciate all the hard work which Arbcomm does, and all the multiple benefits which it provides to the Wikipedia community. I hope it will be possible for Arbcomm to have a full discussion of this item, to discuss both the intent of this process, and the actual course it took, and to also lay out some clear and specific guidelines on how the process should be designed in the future, and what guidelines Arbcomm should define for itself for any similar process which it may mandate in the future. if this came up now, then it could possibly come up again. so I appreciate any progress which we as a community might be able to forge together. I appreciate your help and input. thanks. --Sm8900 (talk) 13:38, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Note on intent of process

By the way, one more note in regards to what Arbcomm should do. in my opinion, of course Arbcomm should intervene if possible to do so. the whole point of Arbcomm mandating a process, imo, is so that they will intervene when necessary at various intervals, in order to maintain that process and to keep it viable. I really see no reason for Arbcomm to be hands-off if it mandates a process, and then that process does not show some viable progress. --Sm8900 (talk) 13:59, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Original statement by Sm8900

I would like to request a clarification of the RFC process for Jerusalem article, which Arbcomm mandated, in regards to the points raised and queries in the following note on an Arbcomm talk page.

1. note: Arbitration/Requests#Mandated Jerusalem discussion appears to be a bureaucratic morass. (Permanent link.)
2. I would also like to suggest a solution and remedy for the problems discussed in this note. I have made these suggestions at the following talk page section: ARBPIA#comment_on_rfc_process_and_arbcomm.
3. The page which is referred to is located at: Talk:Jerusalem/2013_RfC_discussion.

thanks. --Sm8900 (talk) 14:11, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Note by sm8900

I would like to thank Arbcomm for replying to this. please note that my motion on this item is not necessarily a point of contention with any other editor who is part of this, but is rather a suggestion on the nature of this process itself. thanks very much. --Sm8900 (talk) 02:26, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Note in reply to moderator of process

I would like to reply and say that I do appreciate all the hard work which the moderator has put into helping this process to develop. I don't think it is any fault of the moderator that this has taken so long. I think that the structure of this process was flawed from the beginning. in the future, I feel that Arbcomm should be the one to provide the possible options to be used in a future RFC. then, as part of the design process for the RFC, all participants should simply comment on the possible options which Arbcomm has provided. I feel that this might allow the process to go much more smoothly. --Sm8900 (talk) 11:24, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Tariqabjotu

I'm not sure what exactly the "clarification" needed is, but, yes, this process is taking forever. I don't know what the problem is. A desire to get every minutae related to this RfC nailed down? Lack of participation (from those commenting or the mediator)? Excessive arguing over minor points?

That being said, while this process has taken a long time already, I feel the RfC discussion is close to its conclusion. On Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests, Looie496 said there are four steps left in the discussion before the RfC commences. However, that's not true; there are only two. One of them has been going on for more than a month now, so hopefully that should be drawing to its final conclusion (provided the moderator doesn't insist on several more questions). The last step is the finalization of implementation, which I imagine is just discussion of how the RfC will be advertised. The last two steps Looie referenced are the launch of the RfC and the analysis and implementation of the results -- i.e. the RfC itself.

I'm not a fan of this current drawn-out process, and I feel a small team of reasonable editors (maybe ArbCom itself?) could have come up with an RfC with a similar format months ago. But now that we've gone down this road, we might as well see it to its end -- although perhaps with a greater understanding from all parties involved that we need to speed this up. Many people, myself included, are becoming fatigued and losing interest in this whole thing. -- tariqabjotu 02:42, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Mr. Stradivarius

For those unfamiliar with the background, I'm the moderator of the RfC discussion. I'm a little surprised to see this clarification request, as I think this could have been sorted out on my talk page without involvement from the committee. Sm8900 did leave a note on my talk page a few days ago, but we didn't discuss the issue of the basic structure of the RfC discussion, which seems to be what this request is about.

Having said that, I do agree with him, with Tariqabjotu, and with Looie496, about the fact that this process has been taking too long. This is mostly the result of my decisions on how to structure the process, and I'm sorry for any unnecessary work or discussion that this has caused. It wasn't my intention to make the discussion last as long as this, and I might have been able to avoid this state of affairs with more foresight.

To add to this, there has been discontent among the participants at the latest stage of the proceedings. I made the mistake of posting what turned out to be very contentious questions for the participants to answer, right before I went travelling for a few days (on April 11). I wanted to post the questions before I left, as otherwise the process would have basically been stalled until I got back. However, this backfired, and resulted in a series of acrimonious exchanges which I wasn't able to moderate effectively due to my limited internet access. I think it is the negativity in this latest round of discussions that has led to the fatigue that Tariqabjotu mentions.

However, as Tariqabjotu also mentions above, this process is actually fairly near to completion, and I don't think there would be any benefit to radically changing its format at this stage. There are certainly lessons to be learned from this experience for the next time ArbCom tries something similar, and I myself have many things to reflect upon. What the actual process needs now, though, is for me to summarise the consensus from the latest discussions and to assemble a draft of the RfC text, not for there to be a change of procedure or of personnel. After the participants see an actual draft of the RfC, with any luck the fatigue should disappear. I have set aside today to do this, so you can expect to see some results later on. — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 04:57, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Looie496

In response to Salvio, let me note that this request is here because Carcharoth said it should be -- the issue was originally raised on the ArbCom talk page. In my view, the most important aspect of this is that ArbCom really needs to be conscious of how far off track the process has gone, otherwise similar things are likely to happen again. This is a remedy that did not work properly. Can the concept be modified to make it workable, or should remedies of this sort simply be avoided?

It would also be helpful, for the current case, to have the moderator set a more or less definite target date for when the RfC should go live. Looie496 (talk) 15:03, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Dailycare

I agree with the editors above in that the process, while long, is quite close to completion and in that regard prospects are bright. Mr. Stradivarius has been doing an admirable job in guiding the discussion toward the eventual goal of starting the RFC. I don't see why we shouldn't just finish the planning according to the agreed plan. Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 19:28, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

hmmm, I do hear your points. I would like to thank Dailycare for his reply here, as a fellow participant. thanks.--Sm8900 (talk) 15:58, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

• Taking care of the notifications now. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 01:27, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

• I've notified the moderator, closers and all users listed as participants. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 01:44, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Arbitrator views and discussion

• Thank-you for the request for clarification. Before this goes any further, we need to make sure that all those who need to be aware of this request have been notified and added to the notification section above. Could you or a clerk please do that. Thanks. Carcharoth (talk) 00:58, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
• Steve, frankly, I don't understand what you expect us to do here. It appears you're trying to provide us with feedback as to how the process we set up can be improved (and what its major flaws were): don't get me wrong, that's always welcome and, as far as I'm concerned, your suggestions will certainly be taken into account, should we do something like this again, but that's not something that requires a clarification or amendment request. If, on the other hand, you're asking the Committee to intervene, then my personal take is that we should not interfere now that the process is nearing completion... Salvio ^{Let's talk about it!} 12:13, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Can the concept be modified to make it workable [...]? Hopefully, yes: this process was fairly new and there are still kinks to iron out, obviously. That's why feedback from the various participants and from the mediator is much appreciated. Salvio ^{Let's talk about it!} 22:09, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
• My views align fairly closely with Salvio's on this one.  Roger Davies ^talk 20:15, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
• In general, I'm disinclined to intervene in processes like this unless it has gone badly off the rails; micromanaging by committee is one sure way to make the process fail. In this particular case, while perhaps some things could have been done differently, I see no cause for us to intervene now, especially at this late juncture. My suggestion is that everyone do their best to get the process to completion, after which we could assess its effectiveness, and decide on what should be improved next time around. T. Canens (talk) 20:01, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
• I agree with T. Canens. I directed Steve here because he appeared to be lost and posting on the wrong pages. Possibly I should have directed him to the moderator, but I think this clarification has been a useful reminder of this process that the committee mandated, a need to be aware of it, and to support it through to its conclusion, and then review it after that. Carcharoth (talk) 23:06, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

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