Talk:Chữ Nôm

Vote for Image for the Page

There is an edit war going on, for the image of this article, between two images:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/62/Ch%E1%BB%AF_N%C3%B4m-%EC%AF%94%EB%86%88-%E3%83%81%E3%83%A5%E3%83%8E%E3%83%A0-%E5%96%83%E5%AD%97.png

and: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/30/ChuNom.png

Please vote for which one you think is better. I believe the first one is not as visually appealing, on top of the fact that the typeface chosen is NOT a good one for for displaying Chu Nom. It's very mechanical and stiff, whereas the second image shows the brush strokes of how the characters SHOULD be written in the most natural and traditional form. Please cast your vote here. Onixz100 (talk) 10:13, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

• "𡨸" is pure Chữ Nôm, but "字" is also Chữ Hán, here using "𡨸喃" will be more Chữ Nôm style.
• The font of the first picture is "Nôm Na Tống" which especially edited for Chữ Nôm by Nguyễn Quang Hồng and Ngô Thanh Nhàn (Hanoi: © 2006 Viện Nghiên cứu Hán Nôm ,Việt Nam, and The Vietnamese Nôm Preservation Foundation, U.S.A.).
• No need to emphasis Chu Quoc Ngu, light color might be better.

--서공·Tây Cống·セイコゥ^? ★委^ủy班^ban復^phục活^hoạt漢^hán喃^nôm越^việt南^nam★ 12:58, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

The second one looks better, but regardless, it is typed up on the computer with an existing font. The font used in the second image has not been created for Chữ Nôm characters, so if someone wanted to write 𡨸, they're stuck with the first image.125.239.139.60 (talk) 07:41, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Personally I'd stick with the first image - "字" is not Chu Nom. It seems that the main argument is over which font to use, and what is visually appealing - this is not important, as we could always upload a newer revision of an image at any time. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 03:09, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it to be moved. It seems that a move to southern script might be acceptable. --Stemonitis 17:52, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Chữ Nôm → Chu Nom — Per WP:NC(UE), articles should be named using the Latin alphabet. This article uses the Vietnamese alphabet. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 02:21, 28 January 2007 (UTC) Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 02:21, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Survey

Add  # '''Support'''  or  # '''Oppose'''  on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~. Please remember that this survey is not a vote, and please provide an explanation for your recommendation.

Survey - in support of the move

1. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 02:21, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
2. I support the move, as well. --Ryanaxp 23:21, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
3. Support, but southern script would be better. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:02, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Survey - in opposition to the move

1. Oppose. WP:UE doesn't apply here since Chữ Nôm is not English anyway. (The English would be southern script). And the Vietnamese alphabet is a form of the Latin alphabet with diacritics (like with French or Hungarian) that Wikipedia freely uses in article titles. —  AjaxSmack  02:04, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
2. Oppose. The English and Vietnamese alphabets both use the same script: Latin. The title of the article will not be any more English with or without the diacritics. Diacritics hold meaning to some. Others may ignore them without any difficulty. A redirect already exists for Chu Nom, so there is no difficulty finding the page. Bendono 11:22, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

Just a comment - editors interested in this move request might also be interested in the same move request at Talk:Hán Tự. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 19:44, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure what should become of this. I suggest avoiding the use of diacritics that indicate tone; other diacritics might be acceptable. Should the result be Chư Nôm? Chu Nôm? Or, simply, Chu Nom?—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 20:11, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I suggest we use "Chu Nom". Diacritics are rarely used in English, and article titles ought to be in English. The diacritics can be indicated in the article itself. And one issue I also wonder about is, if a reader or editor does not have Vietnamese-language support on his or her computer, what does he see? My own computers have it, so I see it normally. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 20:42, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I have used the "what if a reader doesn't have Unicode support" argument to argue that Māori language, a legitimate English word, should not have a macron in the title but was assured that I was an idiot to argue such (Talk:Māori_language#Requested_move). And here, Hán Tự doesn't meet the threshold of English; that would be "Chinese character." —  AjaxSmack  19:27, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually that was not an argument, but a genuine concern. I honestly do not know how Vietnamese tone marks show up on someone's computer if he does not have Vietnamese language support. Anyway, I would argue that Hán Tự and Chữ Nôm both would fall under the "use English" naming convention in that these tone marks rarely appear, if they appear at all, in English-language publications. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 20:14, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Junam?

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Standardization of capital letter

I've standardized Chữ nôm as "chữ Nôm", following the Vietnamese Wikipedia's example. Cheers.--K.C. Tang 06:59, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I too have preserved this in my edits on other articles, but as I do not know much about Vietnamese, I was wondering if anyone could explain why Nôm is capitalized? It means south, I think -- is there a convention in Vietnamese that directions are capitalized?

It would be interesting and useful to have a Capitalization in Vietnamese article or similar explaining the conventions if they differ substantially from English usage, which seems likely. 70.132.14.22 02:10, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Proper nouns are capitalized, just as we do in English. In the case of "chu nom", "nom" is capitalized because it represents, or at least is perceived to represent, "Vietnam". Just like we write "Arabic script", not "arabic script". Cheers.--K.C. Tang 06:27, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

In contemporary usage, Vietnamese capitalization does differ considerably from that of English. Because so many words in Vietnamese are compound words, it can be awkward to capitalize every word in a proper noun. For instance, Quỹ Hỗ trợ Wikimedia is one way of translating "Wikimedia Foundation". Quỹ (fund), Hỗ trợ (to financially support), and Wikimedia are the từ (words, possibly compound) that make up this proper noun. This is a relatively recent change; most older writers, especially outside of Vietnam, would still write Quỹ Hỗ Trợ Wikimedia. In this case, there isn't much ambiguity if you capitalize every chữ (the things separated by spaces).

On the other hand, "Vietnamese Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia" is often written Bách khoa toàn thư mở Wikipedia, even if the rest of the document uses title case. In this case, Bách khoa toàn thư (encyclopedia), mở (open[-source]), and Wikipedia are the từ that make up this phrase. If you were to capitalize each từ, you'd get Bách khoa toàn thư Mở Wikipedia, which just looks weird to a Vietnamese reader, because Mở is now sticking out by itself. So a lot of this is aesthetic, not systematic.

Another example: Quốc hội Ấn Độ – Quốc hội (national assembly) and Ấn Độ (India). Many proper nouns like Ấn Độ can't be broken down into meaningful modern Vietnamese words – Ấn Độ is a transliteration from Sino-Vietnamese – so are typically fully capitalized. This depends on the writer: I've seen plenty of Ấn-độ or Ấn độ too. I probably haven't covered every capitalization "rule", but I hope this helps regardless.

 – Minh Nguyễn (talk, contribs) 03:42, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for your clarification! Yes, having spaces between the syllables (sometimes morphemes) of a single word is, I guess, the most complained-about thing in the modern Vietnamese writing system.--K.C. Tang 06:43, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Number of characters

Does the article give the total number of Chữ Nôm characters? It would be very good to list the total number of Chữ Nôm (including the total number of invented and borrowed characters). Badagnani (talk) 03:57, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Conflicting information

I remember clearly reading a Vietnamese literature book by Vietnamese literary scholar Nguyen Dinh Hoa which mentioned claims that Chu nom dates back at least to the 11th century (or 10th)..not 13th century as this article claims. Is there any online proof? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.190.22.152 (talk) 19:08, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Meaning of the word "nôm"

A few users insist that the word "Nôm" in "chữ Nôm" means "chattering". That's not correct. The error lies in confusing the ideas of character and word. In Chinese, the character 喃 is usually used to represent the word nam/nan "chattering", "murmuring". However, in the case of 字喃, the character 喃 is used phonetically to represent the Vietnamese word Nôm (i.e. Vietnam), not the Chinese word "chattering" (I don't think this Chinese word has been borrowed into Vietnamese). The term "chữ Nôm" ("Vietnamese script") is indeed used in contrast to the term "chữ Nho" ("Chinese script"). A comparison of the two terms make the meaning of "Nôm" clear. Hope the explanation make sense. Cheers.--K.C. Tang (talk) 09:38, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. The word Nôm does not represent Vietnam, and it never did. Where in the whole of Vietnamese history and culture has the world Nôm/喃 been used to symbolise Vietnam? The phrase chữ Nôm is identified as 'vernacular script' to represent the SPOKEN language of Vietnam (as opposed to chữ Nho, which was used to WRITE historical records). Maybe chữ Nôm doesn't mean 'chattering script', but when words are borrowed into another language they sometimes lose their original meaning and/or gain a new meaning. 'Vernacular' could be an extension of the word 'chattering', as they both have meaning on the basis of sound. Just to clarify something else for other users, Nôm/喃 DOES NOT MEAN SOUTH. Chữ Nôm is NOT 'southern script'; notice the '口' radical on '喃'. '南' means south, but chữ Nôm isn't '字南'. I have seen 'southern script' in this article a couple of times; that is incorrect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.238.23.72 (talk) 03:15, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

The word nôm in Vietnamese doesn't mean "chattering". In fact it's a bound morpheme which only occurs in a few compounds like chữ Nôm (according to my Vietnamese-Chinese dictionary, pls correct me if I'm wrong). The original meaning of this morpheme seems uncertain and controversial, so I think the best way to go is simply avoid the "lit." part.--K.C. Tang (talk) 04:40, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

By the way, what word a character represents can only be determined by the context. That's an important principle in Chinese philology. The word "south" can well be represented by 喃 or many other characters. But that's another story. Cheers.--K.C. Tang (talk) 04:47, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Good idea to remove the 'lit' part due to uncertainty. However, are you sure the word "south" can well be represented by 喃? Are there any examples? 南 is/was used to represent south in all of the CJKV languages. Also, the Vietnamese language doesn't have a native word for south; it is known as Hướng Nam (向南, 'southern direction'). The context which a character is written in can bend the meaning of the phrase/sentence, but it is very hard to modify the meaning of the original character. Whatever context 喃 is written in, it seems rather unlikely it can be used to represent 'south'. Actually from looking at the Vietnamese version of the encyclopedia in the discussion for Chu Nom, 喃 seems to be used in the context in place of the word language/script (I can't tell, because I can't read Vietnamese), for example, Nôm Triều (喃朝) and Nôm Nhật (喃日) seem to represent the languages(spoken or written) of Korea and Japan, respectively. Can someone who knows a competent level of Vietnamese confirm this? 125.238.169.225 (talk) 03:05, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Should be "chữ nôm Nhật" and "chữ nôm Triều", where "chữ nôm" refers to native characters coined in Japan and Korea (in contrast to those borrowed from China.)--K.C. Tang (talk) 12:15, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

It could be that this is one of those "obsolete" Chinese words (Wiktionary carries many; Kangxi Dictionary sure helped them). I mean, the compound doesn't make sense the way it stands, but I doubt it's a transliteration if they were using the Chinese script to begin with... ★Dasani★ 01:37, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Support "Chu Nom"

I'm one of the admin in a facebook group called "東亞文化圈/东亚文化圈 · 동아시아 문화권 · Khu vực văn hóa Đông Á · 東アジア文化圏" http://www.facebook.com/#!/home.php?sk=group_113132062091537&ap=1

We have a lot people who know Korean/Japanese/Chinese (Cantonese + Mandarin) and Vietnamese (Chu Nom + Chu Quoc Ngu —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.188.251.244 (talk) 23:25, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Undiscussed move contrary to RM and redirect lock

• (cur | prev) 13:52, 18 September 2012‎ Kauffner (talk | contribs)‎ . . (73 bytes) (+52)‎ . . (added Category:Redirects from titles with diacritics using HotCat) (undo)
• (cur | prev) 10:01, 6 March 2012‎ Kauffner (talk | contribs)‎ . . (21 bytes) (-56)‎ . . (removed Category:Redirect from alternative with diacritics using HotCat) (undo)
• (cur | prev) 10:01, 6 March 2012‎ Kauffner (talk | contribs)‎ . . (77 bytes) (+56)‎ . . (added Category:Redirect from alternative with diacritics using HotCat) (undo)
• (cur | prev) 16:28, 22 February 2012‎ Kauffner (talk | contribs)‎ . . (21 bytes) (+21)‎ . . (moved Chữ Nôm to Chu Nom: Removing Vietnamese diacritics from title as these are rare in published English.)

The same happened to Talk:Hán tự. The result of a RM was overturned by undiscussed move and the move locked by redirect edit so that it could not be reversed. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:50, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

• You mean the RM from 2007? It was 3-to-2 in favor "chu Nom". Kauffner (talk) 15:25, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Please read:

It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it to be moved. It seems that a move to "southern script" might be acceptable. --Stemonitis 17:52, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

The other article moved counter RM, Talk:Hán tự, was closed by same admin. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:07, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Han tu which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 03:15, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Language tagging for chữ nôm characters

I added the language tag vi-hani (vi=Vietnamese; hani=Han characters, not distinguishing hant traditional from hans simplified characters) to all chữ nôm characters on this page using the template {​{​l​a​n​g|vi-hani|...​}​}, upon which In ictu oculi asked me for an explanation. O.K., here we go:

Generally speaking, the shape of characters may vary according to locale. For the Roman alphabet this is rarely important, though in Turkish it would be plain wrong to capitalize i as I (the pairs being i İ and ı I), and a Slovak Ľ is usually written with a háček ˇ instead of an apostrophe ’ on top of the L.

For Han characters (漢字/汉字: Chinese Hànzì; Japanese Kanji; Korean Hanja; Vietnamese Hán tự) extreme variation is not only frequent, but sometimes reaches a point where the characters cease to be recognizable to users of another language or country. This is due to the Unicode consortium’s much debated policy of Han unification. You can find examples for Han character variation here, though Vietnamese Hán tự don’t appear (probably due to lacking browser support), and no distinction is made between traditional Chinese characters as used in Taiwan vs. Hong Kong and Macao. For the latter, consult the Chinese version of that article. (Always make sure that your browser displays these tables with an appropriate font for each of the locales, otherwise you won’t be able to see the differences.)

All right, so what do I need to display chữ nôm properly in my browser? No browsers I know of have this feature built in yet, and no OS ships with a Hán tự font, so I can only tell you how I managed to persuade my Firefox to do it.

1. First of all, I downloaded the free fonts Nom Na Tong and HAN NOM A & HAN NOM B. Nom Na Tong is my preferred font, for it is much nicer to look at.

2. Then I installed the fonts by way of right-clicking the font files.

3. I downloaded and installed the CSS based Firefox addon Stylish.

4. I then clicked Write new style and wrote a ‘user style’ with the following contents:

@-moz-document regexp("*")
{
    html *
    {
        :lang(vi)
        {
            font-family: "Cambria", "Nom Na Tong", "HAN NOM A", "HAN NOM B", serif !important;
        }
    }
}

This means that for all webpages (@-moz-document regexp("*")) all HTLM elements included in <​h​t​m​l​> (html *) which are tagged Vietnamese (:lang(vi)) must forcibly (!important) be rendered with certain fonts: try "Cambria" first (for Vietnamese written in the Latin alphabet; you may of course use other font families), then the downloaded Hán tự fonts, the nicer one first, and if a character still isn’t contained in any of these fonts, use the browser’s standard serif style font.

5. Of course I can turn this ‘user style’ on and off whenever I like, without having to reload the webpage.

I’m looking forward to your comments. LiliCharlie 20:24, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

• The code vi-hani means something only if you have defined it on your browser as meaning something. It is not part of a standard code system. Here are the ten most common Nom characters in various fonts:

羅吧各没固𧵑得𥪝𤄯𠊛 (default)

羅吧各没固𧵑得𥪝𤄯𠊛 lang|vi

羅吧各没固𧵑得𥪝𤄯𠊛 vi-nom

羅吧各没固𧵑得𥪝𤄯𠊛 lang|vi-hani

羅吧各没固𧵑得𥪝𤄯𠊛 lang|vi-Hant

羅吧各没固𧵑得𥪝𤄯𠊛 HAN NOM A

羅吧各没固𧵑得𥪝𤄯𠊛 Nom Na Tong

Here are the "language-dependent characters":

与今令免入全具刃化區外情才抵次海画直真空草角道雇骨 (default)

与今令免入全具刃化區外情才抵次海画直真空草角道雇骨 lang|vi

与今令免入全具刃化區外情才抵次海画直真空草角道雇骨 vi-nom

与今令免入全具刃化區外情才抵次海画直真空草角道雇骨 lang|vi-hani

与今令免入全具刃化區外情才抵次海画直真空草角道雇骨 lang|vi-Hant

与今令免入全具刃化區外情才抵次海画直真空草角道雇骨 HAN NOM A

与今令免入全具刃化區外情才抵次海画直真空草角道雇骨 Nom Na Tong

As you can see, vi-hani is identical to Wiki's default font. In my opinion, the language marker should be vi. The software is supposed to be able to pick the correct font based on that. It is up to the tech people get that to work right. As you can see above, vi-hani is not an improvement. Kauffner (talk) 13:55, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

I don’t think we’re likely to see native browser support for chữ nôm soon if ever, either. However if we keep the distinction between vi for Roman script Vietnamese and vi-hani for Han character Vietnamese the people who style this Wikipedia can easily write a style sheet for vi-hani to be displayed with a number of preferred fonts without affecting the display of text that is tagged vi. (Probably in a few years when more and more browsers can handle CSS 3 @font-face { font-family: ...; unicode-range: ...; } a solution without separate tags will be practicable though.) Maybe we should ask them to do that and include a note in each of the relevant articles that tells the readers they can get the display right by installing at least one of a list of Hán tự fonts. IMO it is paramount for readers of an encyclopedia to get reliable information, visual information included. After all, this article is about writing, which is nothing but visual. What do you think about that? LiliCharlie 13:09, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

LiliCharlie, does this mean that the coding vi-hani is no disadvantage to standard browsers with standard Chinese character sets, and an advantage to those who have extra fonts installed? In ictu oculi (talk) 03:09, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, vi-hani is included in vi. By definition all properties of vi also apply to vi-hani, except those specifically defined for vi-hani, which will override the definitions for vi. Thus in my sample code above I used :lang(vi) while the actual language tags are vi-hani. I might have used :lang(vi-hani) as well, in which case my code would work fine here, but not with text marked vi. — Browsers that do not recognize a specific Han character font for vi/vi-hani will resort to their default font for this range of characters, typically one suitable for either zh-hans, zh-hk, zh-tw, ja or ko (the five CJK locales that Firefox recognizes as different from each other by default), depending on your browser settings. LiliCharlie 13:09, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

It is certainly ironic that even on your own browser you don't make use of the hani aspect of this code. Is there any situation where it adds value? I suppose it could be useful if you wanted to put Latin characters and Han characters in two different Han fonts. For example, you could put alphabetic Vietnamese in MingLiU and Han-Nom in Nom Na Tong, or something like that. But wouldn't that be pretty bizarre? Kauffner (talk) 00:40, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Kauffner, I use this CSS code privately for all Vietnamese web pages with or without Vietnamese Han characters, and therefore I wrote :lang(vi). I can do this because I know which font I want to use to display Roman Vietnamese. On a global Wikipedia style sheet for a large number of users you wouldn’t want to do that, for the following reason: the font for Roman Vietnamese is defined as font-family: sans-serif;, and if you defined the font for :lang(vi) as font-family: sans-serif, "Nom Na Tong", "HAN NOM A", "HAN NOM B"; Hán tự it would never get displayed with one of the Vietnamese Nôm fonts, for there is always another default sans-serif font defined in any of the modern browsers. Nor could you place sans-serif at the end of the list, because all Nôm fonts also contain Roman letters which you wouldn’t want to force on the user for ‘regular’ Vietnamese. That’s why a more specific language label than vi for Vietnamese Han character text is necessary, at least as long as the CSS 3 code unicode-range is not yet widely supported by common browsers (see above). It’s not ironic, but a matter of who and what you write CSS code for. More technically, a matter of scope. LiliCharlie 01:33, 5 April 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by LiliCharlie (talk • contribs)

This is the only article on all of Wiki that uses the vi-hani code, as you can see here. No, it is not enough to download the fonts. To use the code to display a font you would have to define it on your browser. This is a code that only people who have read this talk page know about. Kauffner (talk) 03:50, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Well, I think an expanded global style sheet for Wikipedia would be desirable instead of user defined styles, and more language tagging will be necessary. There is the {{Cleanup-lang}} template for “articles with non-English text, which do not yet use {{Lang}}.” I don’t know how many articles actually use Vietnamese Han characters, but I think it’s a manageable number. LiliCharlie 13:09, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

New templates for Nôm script

1. I have created the {{vi-nom}} template that does two things: it applies the {{lang}} template on Nôm text marking its language vi-hani and also applies the style font-family:'Nom Na Tong','NomNaTong','HAN NOM A','HANNOM-A','HAN NOM B','HANNOM-B',sans-serif;. It should now be sufficient to have a Nôm font installed. Thank you, Kauffner, for pointing to and insisting on the necessity of the latter. — Should you know other Nôm fonts, please alter the template accordingly and/or leave a note on this page.

2. I have also created the {{Contains Nom text}} template. At this point it has no effect at all, but hopefully soon it will look like the {{Contains Indic text}} template. It shall tell the readers to install at least one of several font families to view Nôm text properly. I don’t have the time to write it now. Well, the early bird gets the worm, and maybe that bird is you.

3. I have replaced all instances of {​{​lang|vi-hani|...​}​} in the article Chữ nôm with {​{​vi-nom|...​}​} and put the {{Contains Nom text}} template at the top of the page. Please check the results and leave a report and your criticism on this talk page.

4. If everything works fine the next step will be to find all articles containing Nôm text and mark it with the {{vi-nom}} template. Please never forget to put the {{Contains Nom text}} template at the top of the page when you use the {{vi-nom}} template. LiliCharlie 22:17, 5 April 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by LiliCharlie (talk • contribs)

See merge discussion at Talk:Chữ Hán

There is a merge discussion at Talk:Chữ Hán concerning new article creation Han-Nom which duplicates topic of longstanding Hán and Nôm articles (more Chữ nôm than Chữ Hán). The merge tag placed by BabelStone was removed again counter discussion on ANI the last time it was removed. Seems as good a time as any to proceed with the merge. In ictu oculi (talk) 06:09, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Proposed merge

The Han Nom article covers two topics, both of which are covered by existing articles: a little on Han (Chinese character and Classical Chinese) but mainly Nom (this article). It is effectively a content fork of this article. Most of the editors involved in this discussion agreed that it should be merged into this article, and that is what I propose to do. Kanguole 19:07, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Chữ Nôm
Vietnamese name
Vietnamese alphabet	Bảo Đại
Hán-Nôm	保大

Chữ Nôm
Vietnamese alphabet	Nguyễn Phúc Vĩnh Thụy
Hán-Nôm	阮福永瑞

• The templates on the right are quite common in the Vietnam project. When someone clicks on the word Hán-Nôm in the either of these templates, it should of course lead to an article on Han-Nom. That's how all the other language templates work. Judging from the page view statistics, about 20 to 30 readers a day are doing this. These readers would be confused if they were sent to the chữ nôm article instead. The term "Han-Nom" is used by the Vietnamese government and in the Vietnamese media, both in English and in Vietnamese. For example, there is a "Han-Nom Research Institute" in Hanoi which made up the "Han Nom CCR", Vietnam's Unicode proposal. The characters used in proper names are the same in Han as they are in Nom, although the Han and Nom readings are usually different. In short, the phrase is convenient in this context. I wrote the Han-Nom article without referring to chữ nôm, so I find it unlikely that the content corresponds. Kauffner (talk) 05:19, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

...again "Han-Nom" does not exist, as explained at length by Itsmejudith. The statements above are in part WP:OR, or just wrong. In ictu oculi (talk) 05:41, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

• Proceed with merge as agreed. The recent changes to templates and links don't change the outcome of previous discussion. That's something else to fix later. In ictu oculi (talk) 05:38, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

• So the idea is to contaminate some other article with my "OR" and "wrong" opinions? This is a thinly disguised deletion discussion, so it should be at WP:AFD. Kauffner (talk) 06:31, 24 May 2013 (UTC)