Talk:Argosy University

Notable Alumni:

An anon seems to be adding Dr. Orlando Rivero to the notable alumni section after having him removed a few times (always with poorly formatted citations). I do not want to get into an editing war, but it does not seem like this person meets the criteria for being notable. Seems like if every director of university departments was listed as notable alumni on college pages, the notable alumni sections could get ridiculously long. Does anyone have anything to say in support of this person being added? EtanaLF (talk) 20:23, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 14:01, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Alleged plagiarism

I have on several occasions tried to remove the comment regarding one student's plagiarism and the school's response to it. The moderator then describes my removal of the comment as being unconstructive. I contend that its inclusion is unconstructive and non-value added. It is a single point in time issue relating to one ex-student and now it takes a prominent position in a description of the school itself - this is one more example of the wiki model protecting the salacious to the exclusion of balance and fair play. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.16.89.148 (talk) 02:04, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

You appear to be mischaracterizing the incident by stating that the student plagiarized when it appears that he was wrongfully accused. The fact that the student was wrongfully accused and that the professor was subjected to rather harsh discipline is a commentary on the school and is relevant. I don't know what you mean by constructive. The articles are not supposed to be constructive or destructive just neutral. Also, we are also supposed to strive to find a consensus before repeatedly unilaterally making revisions which are disputed.Mysteryquest (talk) 19:15, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

You do not understand what occurred. The instructor in question, when she was a student (1) working on her own dissertation, appears to have not used APA citation – or perhaps much citation at all in some instances and after the instructor had graduated with her doctorate, a different student (2), when reviewing the problematic dissertation saw citation inconsistencies.

This student (2) brought the question up to her faculty members who did not agree with her regarding her observation of plagiarism. The student (2) did not agree with their finding and continued to press the issue. Student (2) was then admonished and a note was added to her file. The issue continued to circulate and was brought to the attention of the press in Chicago – who asked for more detail.

The university first stood by the findings of the local faculty member who determined no plagiaristic foul on the part of the student (1). The university continued to evaluate the paper and then concluded that there was, intentional or not, substantial plagiarism on the part of the student (1) in her dissertation. Student (1) was removed from her teaching assignment, her dissertation voided and her degree rescinded. Student (2) was absolved of any wrongdoing and her file cleansed of related commentary. Student (1) was after a period of time, allowed to reapply, and then develop, complete and submit an entirely new dissertation. The entire event was handled consistent with policy and represented the most vigorous and meaningful approach to correcting a recent issue of plagiarism – review other occurrences and note the absence of corrective action on the part of whichever university was involved. No other recent plagiarist has been stripped of his or her awarded degree, removed form teaching and made to completely re-do and re-submit their dissertation.

Wrongs occurred which were corrected. They won’t happen again. They were, still, a point in time occurrence with one student plagiarist and one faculty member misevaluating the occurrence, all of which was corrected. The plagiarist, in trying to reestablish herself in academia, has pointed to other such occurrences of plagiarism at other universities claiming to have made a similar oversight and claiming much to do over little – no one is buying it, in particular student (2) and her substantially reformatted ex-faculty member.

But, it still is not other than a point in time occurrence on the part of a couple of people and does not represent the basis and work of the 13,000 students and faculty – it is exploitive commentary and needs to be removed from what should be a simple description of the university, devoid of salacious commentary.

In regard to your comment of unilateral activity – that’s exactly what happened to get this story included in the description of the university in the first place. It should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.144.110.131 (talk) 22:39, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Your argument appears to contain original research as defined by wikipedia, are you affiliated with Argosy University. You continue to characterize the student as a plagiarist though she was found not to be one and bring forth other allegations for which you have provided no reliable sources. The fact that this was a "moment in time" and "will not happen again" are not relevant to removing this article. If a murder takes place in a moment and time and will not take place again, that does not make it irrelevant.Mysteryquest (talk) 15:22, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Again, you have either missed the point or have chosen to misread the facts. An instructor was found to have plagiarized when she was a student. A different student discovered it. The discoverer was initially not believed and was disciplined. It was later determined that the discoverer was indeed correct and she was absolved of error. The plagiarist was indeed and deemed a plagarist, when she was a student, and she was disciplined via the rescinding of her degree. It is still, however, the actions of one student, which was addressed, and is not worthy of tainting the school, other students, or alumni. The only original research on my part was to read the media articles referenced in the wiki by either the journalist himself or the student initially pointing out the non-cited material of the plagiarist. Either way you are supporting a self-serving entry as though it has relevance - which it does not.

I agree wholeheartedly with Mysteryquest. The entry stands. Your edit-warring and stubbornness doesn't win you any points, either.Helixweb (talk) 03:47, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

And what is your logic? Other than you don't award me any points due to stubbornness? I certainly don't have a lock on that. You and your buddies have been nothing but non-reasoning in this. Simply responsive and reactive not thoughtful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.16.89.148 (talk) 03:53, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

If they are being stubborn, it is them being stubborn about enforcing the rules. Maybe you should read them sometime, particularily WP:3RR. Helixweb (talk) 04:00, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

It appears to me that you feel it is irrelevant because you do not agree with it and want to censor it. The actions of the university in originally disciplining the student who accused the doctoral candidate of plagiarism are remarkable and relevant. This is only a neutral report on a relevant well sourced story. The readers can read the article and the sources just as you did and come to their own conclusion even it is the one you have come to. There is no reason to deprive them of that opportunity.Mysteryquest (talk) 06:41, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I have a question about the plagiarism incident. I'm aware of plagiarism incidents similar to this at non-profit State Universities, but they do not appear on their Wikipedia entry. Is there a reason why a single plagiarism incident should be included in every university entry? This is a problem not isolated to this university. I agree with the initial move to remove this section, since the omission of such incidents on other university pages makes this reference seem intended to create bias against this institution. RichardHansen (talk) 19:20, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

It's a question of sources: if there is significant coverage in reliable sources, then it probably belongs in the article. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 19:53, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Nomoskedasticity. Based on that consideration, I would say perhaps it doesn't belong. There is more significant coverage of plagiarism incidents in major universities, yet the Wiki entries don't mention them. One example (quickly found in a Google search just now) is an incident at Purdue, somewhat like this one--also involving a doctoral dissertation: http://www.journalgazette.net/article/20110726/LOCAL04/110729590. No mention of this appears in the Wiki page for Purdue University. Also, this one seems quite newsworthy with some very unusual features but it also does not appear on the relevant university's wikipage. http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/cougars/52378377-78/bakhtiari-university-panel-plagiarism.html.csp?page=1 RichardHansen (talk) 20:53, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

It also seems that almost all major incidents of plagiarism are "hushed up" by schools, which makes the incident quoted in the current wiki-article rather unremarkable--the prevalence of such incidents is very high. For instance, one investigation notes that most incidents go undetected or unreported. "Julie Ryan, an instructor at George Washington University, found that '7 of 42 students plagiarized most or all of their papers' in a class during the Fall 1997 semester. She says that, in the Spring 1998 semester, again 17 % of the students "plagiarized their entire papers." But wait! That 17 % only represents the plagiarists that she caught by using the AltaVista search engine on the Internet, a method that will not find students who plagiarized from books, scholarly journals, old term papers by other students, material sold by term paper mills, .... So the true incidence of plagiarism among students is higher than one in six." http://www.rbs2.com/plag.htm.RichardHansen (talk) 21:06, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, had to post this example because it has a humorous side to it: two students from U of VA actually plagiarized from Wikipedia articles. :) http://www.c-ville.com/Article/UVA/Honor_Committee_to_vote_on_definition_of_plagiarism/?z_Issue_ID=11801611092999015 RichardHansen (talk) 21:09, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

What a tragedy you've done to the Argosy article. A complete white-washing. Of course plagiarism occurs at both for and non-profit schools, as you've shown. What was notable in this case was Argosy's response, which is unusual and speaks to the intellectual integrity of the school. Will re-add content later, taking notice of your helpful critique, unless you do it sooner. JamaUtil (talk) 05:54, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Geographic Cats

I would favor listing only the location cats where this institution has a main branch. Thoughts?RevelationDirect (talk) 04:07, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

It looks like this page is turning into a brochure for Argosy University. It almost hits my annoyance limit. If there are others who care, I'd like to put in a vote to remove the list of locations. They can easily be referred to, if necessary, with a single link to the Argosy U. site. Ccady (talk) 17:29, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

I would also be in favor of removing the list of locations, or at least reducing it to a summary statement. Of course, I should have read this before I went in and fixed the multiple bare urls in the location list! That took a while, and now I'm not sure I have the motivation to go in and figure out how best to reduce the list. I'll check in again in a couple of days if no one else has gotten to it by then. DaisySaunders (talk) 21:15, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Rankings

Hello. First time using a Talk page. The assertion that Argosy is "16th in Online Educational Database's list of `The Best Online Universities'" seems to be inaccurate. The site referenced in footnote 15 is actually called the Open Education Database, and I could not find Argosy ranked on any of their lists nor do they have a general "best online universities" category. Perhaps that information was accurate in 2011.

RicochetRabbit (talk) 14:18, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Hello RicochetRabbit, welcome to Wikipedia! I have not seen the website in question but if it is presently inaccurate the best course of action would be to replace the citation with an archived one and adjust the text so that it indicates the 2011 nature of the award. Juno (talk) 21:37, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Proposed updated and revision

Greetings, anyone watching this page. This article has been edited only sporadically over the last few years and as a result it is out-of-date and in need of some upkeep. Relatedly, many references are now dead links and the article has always relied very heavily on primary sources. To address these issues and other problems, I've researched and written a draft I think should replace it, but before I explain my intended improvements, I would like to make clear that I am a consultant to Education Management Corporation (EDMC), Argosy University's parent company. For this reason, I will not make any edits to the article myself, but am looking instead for editors to review what I have prepared and make the updates as they see fit.

For easy comparison, here are links to the current version of the article, and my proposed draft:

• Argosy University (17 May 2013)
• User:WWB Too/Argosy University

To assist potential reviewers, I've put together detailed notes explaining my intentions and the differences between the current article and my draft. The section headings below correlate with the current article so editors can easily follow how I've handled the existing article text. You will notice however that my draft is restructured and uses some slightly different section headings.

Introduction + infobox

• I've removed the promotional, or brochure-like, language from the introduction and have updated the infobox to include the most current information available.

History

• I rewrote this section based on what I was able to find in sources and to remove existing plagiarism (see similar langague on the Argosy.edu website). I've also have updated this section to include information about EDMC's acquisition of Argosy University in 2001, as well as the school's 2012 acquisition of Western State College of Law.

Accreditation

Note: I have taken this current section and combined it with the current Rankings section and have made this the third section of the article. To me it made more sense to first present the information about the various campuses and programs offered at Argosy University before getting into the details of accreditation.

• I've removed unsourced information and have updated dead or misdirected links in this section. I've also moved the information about Argosy University's various colleges to my draft's Programs and campuses section, where I felt it was a better fit.

Campuses

Note: In my draft, this section has been retitled Programs and campuses and moved up so it follows the History section. This section now includes the information about Argosy University's colleges, which was previously in the Accreditation section.

• From this section I've trimmed the historical details about the Illinois School of Professional Psychology, as the school's history is already covered above, and the information about the foundation of Argosy University, Seattle which really belongs in the Argosy University, Seattle article.

Learning environment

Note: I've removed this section from my draft and have added a revised summary of this information into the Programs and campuses section as the small section for this information is unnecessary. I also felt that this section was very promotional-sounding so have used the same source but have revised the text.

Rankings

Note: I have merged this section in with the Accreditation section where I've retained what was verifiable and presented the information in prose form, as opposed to a list.

Notable alumni

Note: Because this section is so short, I've opted to merge it with the Programs and campuses section.

• I've removed the inclusion of "Supreme Understanding", because no source is provided and I have not been able to locate one, and "Christian Gostečnik", because I don't see evidence of notability. If other editors determine he should stay I am OK with that, but for now I have left him out of my draft. To this section I have added George Gascon, who is an alumni of Western State College of Law, and a source from the Los Angeles Times to support this addition.

Controversies

Note: In keeping with Wikipedia guidelines I believe this section should be retitled something more specific. In my draft I have used Legal issues and enrollment allegations but am open to other descriptive headings if a reviewing editor has a suggestion. You will also see that my revision has removed the subsection headings and reduced the length of the section overall. Though I understand that this information is important to include I believe the length of the current section gives undue weight to these events. Much of what I have trimmed from this section was extraneous information about other for-profit schools, i.e. Kaplan University, University of Phoenix, etc., that doesn't belong in this section anyhow. Here are the other changes I've made:

• From the Fraud allegations subsection I've removed the majority of the second paragraph as it simply provides a list of Argosy University programs that are APA accredited. This information is already covered in the Accreditation section. Additionally, the information about the lawsuit against the Argosy University, Dallas has been revised based on what I was able to find in news sources. Not only is the current reference in this section no longer available online, but it also appears to have been published by a law firm. Based on my understanding of WP:RS, a primary source is not an appropriate source of information for such a contentious topic.
• As for the information under the Florida Attorney General investigation subsection, this too seems to have been based on a primary source which is no longer available. I have added news sources that discuss this event and provide a more appropriate summary of the investigation. This information has also been moved further down in the section so that it fits chronologically.
• The existing Enrollment Adviser controversy subsection has been revised slightly, and moved up in the section, because it took place prior to the Florida Attorney General investigation. I've also added a new source here that better explains the allegations made against Argosy University. For clarity I have used a direct quote from the source.
• The information about the Frontline program has been retained, but now appears as its own paragraph at the very end of the section because it is not related to the Government Accountability Office report. I've also replaced "an expose" with "a program" because I feel that exposé is a POV word. Additionally, the programs official website does not describe the episode as an exposé. I've also removed the quote from the Director of Admissions at Argosy because it's inclusion here seems to be editorializing.

I understand that this is a significant amount of information to process. I have tried to be as detailed as possible in my notes, while trying to keep this readable. If you have any questions about changes I have made, please leave me a message here. Likewise, please feel free to make any changes you feel are needed directly to the draft in my user space. If you review my draft and have no concerns I would really appreciate it if you could replace the current version with what I have prepared. One last comment: the image and categories have been disable in my draft so they will need to be fixed when grabbing the markup from my user space. Cheers, WWB Too (Talk · COI) 14:27, 27 August 2013 (UTC)