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Josh, I'm trying to AGF, but with a move request this contentious it is perfectly reasonable to have a consensus header, not one just chosen by you one day. please edit towards consensus and don't just revert
Josh Gorand (talk | contribs)
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== Move request 2==
== Move request 2==
{{cquote|<big>'''It has been proposed in this section that [[Bradley Manning]] be renamed and moved to [[Chelsea Manning]].'''</big>}}
{{cquote|<big>'''It has been proposed in this section that [[Bradley Manning]] be renamed and moved to [[Chelsea Manning]].'''</big>}}
Reasons:
⚫
* On August 22, 2013, Manning announced that she identified as female and that her name is Chelsea E. Manning, and requested that people refer to her using this name.
* In the weeks following the announcement, the bulk of reliable sources starting using the name Chelsea on first use to identify the subject (while still explaining that this was a person previously known as Bradley). Several major news sources, including NY Times and AP, publicly stated their preference for using "Chelsea" to refer to the subject. The Encyclopedia Brittanica changed the title of their article on September 5, 2013. At this point (30 September 2013), the bulk of reliable sources use Chelsea Manning when referring to this person; there are nonetheless some exceptions. However, per [[WP:COMMONNAME]], when a name change occurs, we should give more priority to sources *after* the name change than before. With that in mind, it seems clear that a majority of reliable sources are now using "Chelsea Manning" to refer to the subject on first use.
⚫
* Many editors have expressed a concern that using the former name of a transgendered person—that she has requested not be used—as the article title, is offensive and causes harm to that person.


[[:Bradley Manning]] → {{no redirect|Chelsea Manning}} – As proposed by the closers of the last debate and agreed by subsequent consensus, I am starting the new move discussion and proposing that we move the article currently located at Bradley Manning to Chelsea Manning, for the following reasons:
Relevant sources on usage in reliable sources as developed by a collaboration of multiple editors over the past 3 weeks, as well as relevant policies and guidelines, are cited below.
⚫
*On August 22, 2013, the subject of this article announced that she identified as female and that her name is Chelsea E. Manning, and requested that people refer to her using this name.
*Most reliable sources starting using this name within a week. At this point (30 September 2013), the overwhelming majority of reliable sources use Chelsea Manning when referring to this person.
⚫
*Many editors have expressed a concern that using the former name of a transgendered person—that she has requested not be used—as the article title, is offensive and causes harm to that person.

Relevant sources on usage in reliable sources as well as relevant policies and guidelines, contributed by various users over the last few weeks, are cited below. [[User:Josh Gorand|Josh Gorand]] ([[User talk:Josh Gorand|talk]]) 19:15, 30 September 2013 (UTC)



=== Discussion guidelines ===
=== Discussion guidelines ===

Revision as of 20:21, 30 September 2013

Move request 2

Bradley Manning → Chelsea Manning – As proposed by the closers of the last debate and agreed by subsequent consensus, I am starting the new move discussion and proposing that we move the article currently located at Bradley Manning to Chelsea Manning, for the following reasons:

  • On August 22, 2013, the subject of this article announced that she identified as female and that her name is Chelsea E. Manning, and requested that people refer to her using this name.
  • Most reliable sources starting using this name within a week. At this point (30 September 2013), the overwhelming majority of reliable sources use Chelsea Manning when referring to this person.
  • Many editors have expressed a concern that using the former name of a transgendered person—that she has requested not be used—as the article title, is offensive and causes harm to that person.

Relevant sources on usage in reliable sources as well as relevant policies and guidelines, contributed by various users over the last few weeks, are cited below. Josh Gorand (talk) 19:15, 30 September 2013 (UTC)


Discussion guidelines

Click here to read the guidance for this discussion

Please be civil, and respect the viewpoints of others. Please do not engage in battlegrounding. Please assume good faith and do not engage in personal attacks.

Please cite relevant Wikipedia policies when you make your argument. You may wish to consider the arguments that others put forward in the previous move request.

Respect other editors and stay on topic

Wikipedia has editors from all over the world, raised in different societies and with different cultural norms, so please assume good faith and accept that different people may have different views from you on this subject. This discussion centers around the title of the article currently located at Bradley Manning. Please comment only about what you think the best choice of article title is according to Wikipedia's policies; please refrain from making other types of comments. For example, your personal opinions about transgenderism — whether pro or con — are not germane to this discussion, and such off-topic comments may be closed or ignored.

Avoiding offensive language

Wikipedia's Biographies of living persons policy also applies on talk pages, so please familiarize yourself with it. To avoid what some perceive as transphobia[1] during this discussion and to ensure there is a welcoming environment for editors of all kinds, please consider adhering to the following guidelines:

  1. Do not use the following words, which are considered offensive: 'transvestite,' 'she-male,' 'he-she,' 'it,' 'trannie,' 'tranny,' and 'shim.'
  2. Avoid comparing Manning's Gender identity disorder to the belief that one is an animal or object (e.g. "if I wake up one morning and decide I'm a dog, that doesn't make me one.") Manning was diagnosed with gender identity disorder by a clinical psychologist in 2010, so the gender and name change is not a whim nor is Manning's diagnosis a legal tactic.
  3. Do not share your opinion on whether or not Manning is really a woman, or needs to have surgery, hormone treatment, or a legal name change to become one. This is a debate about an article title, not a forum to discuss Manning's "true" gender or sex.
  4. Do not make comments about what sort of genitals Manning has, which is irrelevant to the title of the article and none of our business.
  5. Do not state that Manning's only "real" name is Bradley or Chelsea. You can share your thoughts on what Manning's "legal" name is, but recall that, per WP:AT and WP:OFFICIALNAME, there is no obligation for biographies to use the legal names of their subjects as their titles.
  6. The question of what pronouns to use for Manning is contentious, and current usage in sources is mixed. It has been suggested the best way to avoid offense is to use 'she' when referring to Manning in the present tense.[2] In any case, the move request is not a discussion on the use of pronouns in the article.
  7. Do not make speculative remarks about the future (e.g. Manning might change her mind next week/year). Wikipedia is not a crystal ball.

How to respond to offensive language

Please remember that the policy No personal attacks applies to this discussion, for all editors. If you see someone's comment and it offends you or you find it transphobic, consider informing them with a civil note on their talk page that you find their language inappropriate, or reporting their comment at WP:ANI if it is egregiously offensive. We're all learning here, and a more open approach (e.g. "You said this, which could be construed as harmful language towards a BLP, can you consider rewording it") may yield more dividends than simply accusing someone of transphobia because they crossed a line they may not have been aware of. Blanket statements like "Those proposing to keep the article titled Bradley are bigoted transphobes" polarize the discussion and are likely to make other contributors less willing to understand your view.

Resources to learn about transgender people

Sanctions

Discussion of the subject of this article and/or transgender issues falls under standard discretionary sanctions. See also, WP:BLPBAN.

Notes

  1. ^ Transphobia is defined as "A reaction of fear, loathing, and discriminatory treatment of people whose identity or gender presentation (or perceived gender or gender identity) does not “match,” in the societally accepted way, the sex they were assigned at birth." @ Words That are Transphobic and Why
  2. ^ Use of female pronouns for Manning is recommended by the Manual of Style. The National Gay and Lesbian Journalists Association suggests the use of 'he' for the writing of historical events and 'she' for the present tense, here and here, while 'she' is recommended by many other organizations such as GLAAD for all phases of Manning's life. The AP stylebook states "Transgender: Use the pronoun preferred by the individuals who have acquired the physical characteristics of the opposite sex or present themselves in a way that does not correspond with their sex at birth. If that preference is not expressed, use the pronoun consistent with the way the individuals live publicly."

Relevant content policies and guidelines

Click here for a list of relevant content policies and guidelines

Below is a listing of Wikipedia policies and guidelines that may be relevant to this discussion. They are sorted in alphabetical order by page title, then by section title, so as to remain neutral.


Evidence

Click here for evidence on usage of Bradley and Chelsea from various reliable sources.

Evidence from reliable news sources on what names they use on first mention

This section can be used to gather evidence from reliable sources on usage of Chelsea Manning vs Bradley Manning as the primary name of the subject.

Sources are sorted based on their latest use of one name or the other in an article or editorial statement from after August 22, when the announcement was made. It is trivially obvious that sources from before the announcement use Bradley; that is not of interest and such sources are not listed here.

Note that regardless of which name they use on first mention, almost all of the sources listed in both sections mention and contribute to readers' awareness of the existence of both names.

Statements by news agencies on their policy to address Manning as Chelsea
News agencies with a policy of addressing Manning as Chelsea
Statements by news agencies on their policy to address Manning as Bradley
News agencies with a policy of addressing Manning as Bradley
News agencies using Chelsea Manning
News agencies using Chelsea Manning
News agencies using post-announcement AP or AFP articles while retaining Chelsea
News agencies using Bradley Manning
News agencies using Bradley Manning
News agencies which modified AP or AFP stories to use "Bradley"
News agencies which haven't clearly chosen one name over the other

News sources which have mixed up usage of Bradley and Chelsea. In most cases, if a news source started using Bradley post Aug 22, and then started exclusively using Chelsea, we marked it in the Chelsea list. However, if a news source has alternated between use of Bradley and Chelsea since Aug 22, then it is listed here.

Extended content

Evidence from reliable non-news sources on what names they use

Chelsea
Non-news sources addressing Manning as Chelsea
Bradley
Non-news sources addressing Manning as Bradley
  • "While PVT Manning wants supporters to acknowledge and respect her gender identity as she proceeds into the post-trial state of her life, she also expects that the name Bradley Manning and the male pronoun will continue to be used in certain instances. These instances include any reference to the trial, in legal documents, in communication with the government, in the current petition to the White House calling for clemency, and on the envelope of letters written to her by supporters. She also expects that many old photos and graphics will remain in use for the time being." Statements by Manning's Lawyer, David Coombs
  • Lawyers for Manning used the name "Bradley" in a 9/3/2013 cover letter to the President. Pardon request cover letter for Pvt. Manning.

Sources specifically discussing media usage

Sources discussing media usage
Sources specifically discussing the title of the Wikipedia article
Sources discussing the title of this Wikipedia article

On initial move from Bradley to Chelsea

On reversal from Chelsea to Bradley

(list courtesy of [14])

Sources discussing how naming decisions affect trans people
Sources discussing how naming decisions affect trans people

This section can also be used to gather reliable sources that discuss the use of names to refer to trans people. Note that this move request covers only the naming portion, and not the pronoun question.

A. Finn Enke, editor of Transfeminist Perspectives in and beyond Transgender and Gender Studies, considers names, pronouns, and learning from Chelsea Manning.
  • Subsection of Trans media watch submission to the Leveson Inquiry (press controls in the UK, [15]). On page 11 they discuss methods by which the press aggress against trans people; the first bulletpoint in that section:
"Routine use of previous names - even when the use of these names is intensely painful or places them in actual danger. Typically a transitioning transsexual person will wish to move on from their previous identity, having perhaps lived in deep distress within that ’identity’ in the past. They may be working with colleagues who know nothing of their past, or they may not have revealed their life story to neighbours. Gratuitous revelation can lead to abuse. Further, for transgender people who have a Gender Recognition Certificate, it is illegal for an individual working in an "official capacity" to disclose a person’s previous name. They are, for all legal purposes, recognised in the gender in which they live. This seldom makes any difference to the press."
  • Juliet Jacques article discussing choosing a new name. She states that someone using her old name can be "a mistake [or] a malicious attempt to undermine my identity".

Some editors have expressed a concern that the following source is not reliable, while other editors consider it to be reliable:

  • Wikipedia’s Deadnaming Violence ("our old name are frequently weaponised against us, often as a precursor to physical violence. And the violence of weaponized old names springs from the same disrespect, mockery, and hatred that informs fatal physical violence. These are all connected.") (Urban Achives) (written by digital media ethics scholar)

Survey

Support move to "Chelsea Manning"

  1. Strong support. This seems to be the most common name now, and articles on other transgendered persons are at their identifying name to satisfy BLP and IDENTITY -- save this one, an omission that should be corrected. Dralwik|Have a Chat 20:08, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Oppose move

Neutral

Discussion

Older discussion on the sources only

Time

In this blog from fair.org Peter Hart quotes a Time magazine piece dated 30 September 2013 "Unchecked Aggression" by Mark Thompson. The graphic provided in the blog and the quote use "Bradley" exclusively (the blog uses Manning while "Time" uses "Bradley"). The quote is: "Here is the world's worst-kept secret: The military's security-clearance system is utterly, tragically broken. Army Major Nidal Hasan, armed with a secret clearance and an FN 5.7 semiautomatic pistol, showed warning signs well before he killed 13 people at Fort Hood in 2009. Army Private First Class Bradley Manning, arrested in 2010, and NSA contractor Edward Snowden, a fugitive since June, had top-secret clearances before they absconded with the nation's secrets and shared them with the world." The graphic provided is captioned "Bradley Manning." I can't get past the paywall at "Time" to check it though. --DHeyward (talk) 02:32, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

AP

AP has a number of hits across all major sources with this title "'Today' show rebooting with Daly, studio revamp" written by AP reporter David Bauder. Definitely "Bradley Manning" and even using "avoided" terms. Google the title for a ton of hits that are all the same but sourced to AP. Here is one (12 September 2013) but it's also hosted at AP.org though it wouldn't load.

Manning passage:

"Today" is devoting itself to a mission statement that involves substance, making connections with viewers and offering people who watch something uplifting, Turness said. She pointed to stories in recent weeks involving Bradley Manning's sex change, interrogation footage of Cleveland kidnapper Ariel Castro and Matt Lauer's interviews with Paula Deen and Alex Rodriguez's lawyer.

--DHeyward (talk) 02:28, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Given AP has made a statement about their editorial policy here, and this really sounds like a transcription of a quote from a Today host that used Bradley, and the fact that this is a TV blog, I'd still be inclined to leave AP at "Chelsea" for now.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 02:47, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
They can say their editorial policy is anything they like, but this isn't a blog. Either it's the show and reporter that broke the "Bradley is Chelsea Manning" story on this show, or it's an AP reporter. Both are notables.
I can now access AP and confirmed it is an AP new article released to be republished by all their subscribers (and Google confirms they did): http://bigstory.ap.org/article/carson-daly-join-today-newly-created-role (12 September 2013). It's hosted by AP in their article section and has a tremendous number of reprints with verbatim Manning reference "Bradley Manning's sex change". It's in news space as an article. Where their subscribers put it, I can't tell but the number of reprints is massive and I haven't seen a correction or retraction. The reporter is here David Bauder contributions. There is an "Editors Note" at the bottom implying there is editorial oversight. It said nothing about the Manning reference. --DHeyward (talk) 04:10, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

US Finance Post / aka / US Financial Post / aka / Finance Post

Does anyone want to vouch for the editorial oversight of this website? DHeyward wants to include them as a reputable source. He has reverted their deletion.

  • It's corporate address and telephone number are also currently shared by Excel Living.com, Sophia's Collections Gifts, Smart Dreams Inc., "bgp.he.net/dns/thedailycentral.com", and Florida Termking Senior Life Insurance. The address in Pflugerville, Texas is above a Sushi Restaurant.
  • Their terms of service claim that the (multi-newspaper-and-television-station-owning) Scripps news service is one of its subsidiaries. It looks like it's the same TOS as Scripps.com, except the first two names have been changed. Scripps (the publicly traded company) doesn't seem to admit in any of their financial filings that they are owned by Florida Termking Insurance or US Finance Post/US Financial Post. I would love to see any evidence outside of a copy-and-pasted terms of service that Scripps has anything to do with this site at all.
  • The website is given high reliability ratings by Adsense-scam "verification" sites, which are themselves, proven scams which give high ratings to the dodgiest sites. __Elaqueate (talk) 13:04, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
  • The reason for the heading here is that the website doesn't use their own name consistently on their web page.
  • An example of their standard of journalism: "News has become an essential part of the day for every aware and educated citizen. Right from being serious & entertaining, new & old, fast paced update to in-depth analysis, the craving to remain updated and ahead in life is satisfied by knowing what’s happening in and around the society and world at large." __Elaqueate (talk) 19:53, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
I can no longer find the reference from Scripps or perhaps misread it. It appears they have the listed the same statutory agent in the TOS which is part of the original reason for affiliation. Absent no other verification, I can't justify their inclusion. Listing the Scripps stautory agent appears to be a poor copyright violation if it's not legitimate. I am also notifying Scripps if they wish to take action (or affirm relationship) but it appears dubious at this point. --DHeyward (talk) 19:58, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
Good work on notifying Scripps. There are a whole class of bogus news sites which hire people minimum wage to rewrite AP stories in attempt to click-fraud Google AdSense. I'm not specifically saying this site is necessarily one of them, of course. __Elaqueate (talk) 20:12, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Break-out of sources

We have "Chelsea" and "Bradley" but these are very broad. Post-announcement is probably the only relevant ones to consider for changing. I am more concerned that tangential references to Manning in articles are being handled differently than articles generated by actions of his lawyer (i.e. interviews with Coombs regarding her pardon request or her current condition given last week). For example stories about Snowden often mention Manning and ignore style guidelines for her gender and name reference. Articles about the Navy yard shooter that mention Manning w.r.t. security clearances, too. There was even a widely carried AP article I mentioned previously about the Today show that highlighted the Coombs interview in reference to how the interview was a coup and marked a change to the show. They ignored the AP styleguide and statement. The Sept 30 Time magazine piece is another example. I'd almost want to see "Articles quoting Coombs" vs. "Articles not quoting Coombs" to see if the references are to maintain access to a source or editorially enforced MOS's. There's a non-random dichotomy of use that's influenced by whether Coombs' announcements or interviews are in the current news cycle or not and it appears a stronger indicator (to me at least) than MOS. Thoughts? --DHeyward (talk) 07:29, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

We aren't counting direct quotes from Coombs. Everything else is speculation about motives behind use. We list many tangential references here and actually give them as much weight here as pieces about Manning specifically. AP has used Chelsea overwhelmingly, including tangential references, with the one tangential exception you mention. There is no empirical test that proves a source used "Chelsea" because they wanted to "maintain access to a source". __Elaqueate (talk) 13:16, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
I would suggest that moving a bunch of sources that have eight Chelsea uses and one Bradley use into the "Undecided" column is not a useful thing to do. Many of the Chelsea Manning sources haven't been updated with every instance from the last month because we were only looking at significant changes. I don't think anyone thought that someone would consider AP and the New York Times being "undecided" at this point. If we give little weight to what "undecided" reasonably means, it would also have the effect of moving more sources that have last used Bradley, but have used Chelsea, into undecided, sources such as Vanity Fair, the Wall Street Journal, World Socialist Web Site, etc. __Elaqueate (talk) 19:45, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
My point was that coverage that is primarily about CM (i.e. the spike last week due to Coombs talking about Chelsea adjusting and making friends and his tour of the facility) vs. coverage that mentions Manning but isn't specifically about her (i.e. both AP and NYTimes have independent stories that use BM despite their MOS.) This was noted above by OWK above and is really the bulk of a lot of the BM-only since announcement. Simply listing CM vs. BM this close around the announcement may not ultimately be how she is referred to in reliable sources as the news cycle transfers coverage as a human interest story generated to subsequent stories on broader issues. We don't have to speculate why, but noting that is occurring might be good a year from now or two years from now if she remains in the news as a reference rather than the subject and the reporters are writing about the leak rather than the person. For example, a google news search of "Snowden Bradley Manning -chelsea" for the last 30 days list a number of hits (can't evaluate them all for how they relate). But "Coombs Bradley Manning -chelsea" over the same time period yields nearly 0 english language sources. The Snowden affair isn't related to Manning except through their notable actions so conceivably there are more tangential references that link actions but aren't primarily Manning articles. I don't think that's an irrelevant dichotomy that shouldn't go unnoticed. --DHeyward (talk) 20:28, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
Google searches that use "-Chelsea" (to eliminate even a single mention of "Chelsea") from the last month get some amount of unknown-quality origin or no results. I don't think I'd lean too hard on that kind of research. All you seem to have found is an article about the changing of the Today Show TV set that has a passing mention of "Bradley Manning" at the end of the article that made its way into two prominently Chelsea-using sources. In other sources, there are plenty of example of Chelsea being used in both Chelsea-specific and non-Chelsea stories, and we have sources under the Bradley column that only use Bradley in a very tangential way. I don't know how significant your tailored-to-not-include-even-a-single-mention-of-Chelsea unexamined-for-quality sources are here. And as for "may not ultimately be", well, that sounds like crystal balling. People also predicted nobody would change to Chelsea at all for future stories, and that's not the case now. __Elaqueate (talk) 21:13, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
I think it would be perfectly reasonable to do another move request in a year's time, especially once several news cycles have passed, to see if "Chelsea" has stuck. It's possible, like John Mark Karr, that the new name won't stick, and even sources which were first to switch will go back to what is most likely to be recognized by their readers. But for now, I think we should lean on preponderance - if a source has 8 Chelseas and one Bradley, I wouldn't use that to switch them to the undecided column.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 14:39, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Other comments, archived comments, and comments on the discussion guidelines

Please see Talk:Bradley Manning/October 2013 move request/Comments unrelated to evidence. Thank you!
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