Talk:Chelsea Manning

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Gender expression

Editors here might consider whether some mention should be made in the article about Manning's gender expression while growing up. --Bob K31416 (talk) 00:06, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

1. Is it significantly more important here than in other biographies? 2. Is there enough reliable information? Given that some children switch back and forth between more 'feminine' and more 'masculine' interests, outward expressions, etc., and that these may not reflect one's underlying identity, I worry that a flawed selection of events might present a misleading picture. Ananiujitha (talk) 00:32, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

We can only discuss it to the extent that it is referred to in reliable sources - and then we have to consider issues of due weight. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:36, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Even if they did move the article, most of the important bits of Manning's life happened before she announce she was a woman and we should remember that in terms of due weight. KonveyorBelt 22:27, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Well, she still made choices to present as a woman before she did any of the things that made her famous. The announcement wasn't something decided that day. It looks like her gender identity issues predate almost everything of note in the biography. So if the biography reads as if she suddenly changed her mind about her life on August 22, then it is not as neutral or accurate as it could be. When we write about events that somehow surprised the world (revolutions, coups, plots, crimes) we write about what really happened, not only what the world thought happened. She was a woman before she made the announcement, and it seems clear the trial delayed the announcement, and the article is better the more it reflects that reality. And how do we know this? We read it in reliable sources __Elaqueate (talk) 00:05, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Just for information, please note that gender identity and gender expression are different concepts. --Bob K31416 (talk) 01:36, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Yep. __Elaqueate (talk) 02:06, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Does Manning "feel female"?

I don't know. But I do know that she didn't say so in her coming out statement. She said that "I am a female." To a lot of people this may seem like a trivial distinction, but I think it's important. Someone can "feel" something without it being factual. For instance, I FEEL ugly. . .but logically I know that I'm NOT ugly. I simply feel ugly because that's the message I've gotten from the outside world, just as most women do. But logically, I know that I actually conform relatively well to most mainstream standards of appearance, and besides, beauty is in the eye of the beholder anyway. So in other words, I'm not ACTUALLY ugly, and I recognize that despite my feelings to the contrary.

Manning clearly stated that "I am a female." This is a fact (at least, in her opinion). As we are all aware, the factualness of her femaleness is something that is heavily disputed by many other people, but Manning is quite clear that according to her it is a fact. It is reality. She stands behind it unequivocally. It is not simply a feeling, which she may give credence to or she may not. According to Manning, she IS a female. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Picture of a Sunny Day (talk • contribs) 22:22, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

For reference, here's more of the statement that Picture of a Sunny Day quoted.[1]

"I am a female. Given the way that I feel, and have felt since childhood, I want to begin hormone therapy as soon as possible."

Here's Picture of a Sunny Day's proposed version,[2]

1) "...Manning said she had been female since childhood..."

and here's the original version from the Wikipedia article,

2) "...Manning said she had felt female since childhood..."

It's a choice between "been female" or "felt female". The only mention of the past childhood is when the source says, "have felt since childhood". So it looks like the source supports "felt" over "been". --Bob K31416 (talk) 00:07, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Regarding the latter option, see MOS:QUOTE - we don't normally put wikilinks into quotations. The wikilinked implication that 'Gender identity disorder' can be summarised as 'feeling female' is questionable. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:17, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

You may have a point and we might remove the wikilink while keeping "felt". --Bob K31416 (talk) 00:36, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Another option is to change the wikilink to the gender identity article: felt female. --Bob K31416 (talk) 01:06, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

• Does Manning "feel" female? I don't know, do you "feel" like a human? KonveyorBelt 04:40, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

• Why not just directly quote the relevant piece of the statement, thus avoiding any potentially dodgy synthesis? Strike the end of the sentence and replace with:

"...Manning said "I am Chelsea Manning. I am a female. Given the way that I feel, and have felt since childhood, I want to begin hormone therapy as soon as possible."

Chris Smowton (talk) 09:48, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

That's probably the simplest solution. -sche (talk) 16:42, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

That quoted part of the Aug 22 statement leaves out the important info that Chelsea is a new name, which is contained in another part, "I also request that, starting today, you refer to me by my new name...". --Bob K31416 (talk) 18:54, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Readers aren't idiots, but we could easily explain any part instead of using a direct quote for that part. I think we do need a direct wikilink to gender dysphoria however. Most people have no clue what the condition is. Sportfan5000 (talk) 18:59, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Re wikilink, please see User:AndyTheGrump's above comment of 00:17, 19 October 2013 and my two brief responses. --Bob K31416 (talk) 19:22, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Reliable sources are reporting on her gender dysphoria so there is no reason why we cannot. Again, our readers are not idiots, it's a simple matter of finding the best way to write about what has already been widely reported. Sportfan5000 (talk) 19:29, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Chelsea Manning awaits diagnosis in prison before possible hormone therapy, Though Manning was diagnosed with gender dysphoria twice, the army requires re-evaluation upon changing facilities is a fairly typical example of media coverage so it's a NPOV violation to now omit this information. Sportfan5000 (talk) 19:40, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it does seem reasonable that gender dysphoria should be mentioned somewhere in the article. Using the wikilink that you suggested for the subject sentence may not be the way. Editors have expressed opposition to the wikilink of "felt female" to Gender dysphoria that you're suggesting. We might consider instead a wikilink to Gender identity for "felt female", which seems more appropriate and hasn't incurred any opposition so far. This doesn't mean that gender dysphoria can't be included in a different way in the article. --Bob K31416 (talk) 20:04, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

It's misleading to drop a little bombshell like that in the first paragraph with little to no explanation. The very least would be a wikilink to gender dysphoria. Presently we have Manning said she felt female since childhood. Perhaps we could expand that slightly to read "Diagnosed twice with gender dysphoria, Manning said she felt female since childhood." We have reliable sources that cover this and we would avoid making some conclusion on our own. Sportfan5000 (talk) 19:38, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

No matter what I don't think we should link to "gender dysphoria" directly from Manning's statements - you could have that as a separate sentence if needed.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:12, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

That's what I'm proposing, a separate phrase that can link to gender dysphoria that is not a part of her direct quote. Sportfan5000 (talk) 20:15, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable. Startswithj (talk) 21:53, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

I think the new sentence would look something like...

In a statement the day after sentencing, Manning, who has been diagnosed twice with gender dysphoria, said she felt female since childhood, her new name was Chelsea, and she wanted hormone replacement therapy. Does this work, or do we need to change anything? Sportfan5000 (talk) 22:45, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

I think there's an important distinction between Manning saying "I am female. Given the way I feel..." and "I feel female." The one can refer to dysphoria, and doesn't imply that there's one way to "feel female," the other does. So without very strong very specific sourcing that she "feels female," I'd prefer to avoid the phrase. Ananiujitha (talk) 22:48, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Maybe that should be directly quoted then? Sportfan5000 (talk) 23:01, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Does this come closer? In a statement the day after sentencing, Manning, who has been diagnosed twice with gender dysphoria, stated "I am a female ... and have felt since childhood," her new name was Chelsea, and she wanted hormone replacement therapy as soon as possible. Sportfan5000 (talk) 23:06, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps: "In a statement the day after sentencing, Manning came out as transgender, gave her new name as Chelsea (not Bradley), and expressed her desire to seek hormone replacement therapy." I would avoid quoting in the lead (implies too much weight). Startswithj (talk) 23:10, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Is there a guideline that talks about using quotes? I think it puts the writing into her own words but it is a bit clumsy. But if we should avoid quotes altogether than we need to find a different way. I am opposed to repeating her former name as we already have it in the very first phrase. Sportfan5000 (talk) 23:22, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

You're right, the emphasis of "instead of Bradley" would be an unnecessary repeat. Regarding my suggestion not to quote, my feeling is that you'd have to include the full quote to give it proper meaning/context, and that would give it too much weight. Startswithj (talk) 23:30, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

I see what you mean by using the whole quote. I'll think on it more, I hadn't considered also adding a link to transgender but that too makes sense. Sportfan5000 (talk) 23:39, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Linking to transgender might be more neutral than linking to gender dysphoria (the latter might be seen as an endorsement of the position that transgender identity is an illness, a position with which some would disagree). Startswithj (talk) 23:55, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

I could also see it as at least partially addressing the concern of what's going on with the gender issue. I still think we should at least report on the gender dysphoria diagnosis but maybe that could be in a footnote rather than in the prose itself. Sportfan5000 (talk) 00:18, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Whatever quest you seem to be on, this isn't the place to do it. Why not use the full quote "I also request that starting today you refer to me by my new name and use the feminine pronoun.", which is far more accurate than the version you keep pushing? Two kinds of pork (talk) 23:15, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

No one's pushing anything but an accurate narrative. It does little good to add to the confusion of readers. With more eyes on this I'm sure a good version will come about. Sportfan5000 (talk) 23:22, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Then I ask that you revert yourself with respect to the edit that is in disagreement, as that was the version there was no disagreement until you made a change.Two kinds of pork (talk) 23:26, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Actually that would be counterproductive taking us back to several edits that are in dispute and rough consensus is that the corrections needed to be made. Lets see what other editors have to say and see if the entire sentence can be rewritten to address many of the contentious points. Simply blocking all changes isn't helping anything so let's see what other editors add to the discussion. Sportfan5000 (talk) 23:39, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

proposed new sentence

Currently we have - In a statement the day after sentencing, Manning said she felt female since childhood, she wanted to be known as Chelsea, and she wanted hormone replacement therapy.

incorporating the comments above what about:

• In a statement the day after sentencing, Manning came out as transgender, said she wanted to be known as Chelsea, and start hormone replacement therapy as soon as possible.

Thoughts? Sportfan5000 (talk) 00:24, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

I think your new content is an improvement. I'm not sure "as soon as possible" is necessary. Also, to keep subject–verb phrasing parallel, I suggest: "In a statement the day after sentencing, Manning came out as transgender, asked to be known as Chelsea, and indicated a desire to start hormone replacement therapy." (All verbs being past tense and paired with the subject "Manning"). Startswithj (talk) 00:34, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

The "desire" word trips me up a bit, maybe we can omit it? Sportfan5000 (talk) 00:44, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

• In a statement the day after sentencing, Manning came out as transgender, asked to be known as Chelsea, and start hormone replacement therapy.

"Desire" could be replaced with "intention," "wish," etc. But grammatically, that wording effectively says "Manning start hormone therapy." The three verbs that begin each phrase in the series (set apart by commas: "Manning came," "Manning asked," "Manning _____") need a parallel tense.

Another option:

• "In a statement the day after sentencing, Manning came out as transgender, asked to be known as Chelsea, and requested hormone replacement therapy.

Startswithj (talk) 00:56, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

That works! Sportfan5000 (talk) 01:02, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, not an improvement over the current wording, and less accurate to what the sources state.Two kinds of pork (talk) 01:10, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

I disagree. It reduces the matter down to the pertinent facts, without projecting vague interpretations or suggested endorsements. Could you elaborate on how you feel it represents a loss of accuracy? Startswithj (talk) 01:20, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

we need to mention Bradley here. The reader knows she was born as Bradley, but they don't know from the text that up until aug 22, she was known as Bradley by all and sundry. There is no reason to hide this fact, and we should make it crystal clear. I also think if we're covering her statement, she did not 'come out as transgender' and never used that word. What she said is, I'm female and have felt female since childhood.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 02:26, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

I disagree but perhaps we are getting at some of the disconnect in the entire opening. I do wonder if this little sentence bombshell isn't both premature and too little. What if we moved this to the end of the entire section and made it into a few sentences. After all she did become one of the most visible trans women in the world. And there was an incredible amount of media attention given to just this announcement. Perhaps this whole sentence should be dropped to the end of the lead and turned into a fifth paragraph making clear some of the salient points that are being too easily glossed over? Sportfan5000 (talk) 02:39, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Once again, not an improvement.Two kinds of pork (talk) 02:43, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

What would you consider an improvement? I think removing the ambiguous references to having felt female is an improvement. Are there any ways you think this would be worse than the current text? Are thee any ways you think it could be better? Ananiujitha (talk) 03:08, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

The paragraph essentially begins with "Chelsea Manning (born Bradley)…" The sentence in question is the last sentence in that same paragraph, and the suggested rewording includes "the day after sentencing…[she] asked to be known as Chelsea." That makes it pretty clear that she was known as Bradley until the day after her sentencing. Repeating her former name in the same paragraph is overkill.

"She didn't come out as transgender"? If a male-bodied person publicly states "I am a female. …[U]se the feminine pronoun," that is, by definition, coming out as transgender. Startswithj (talk) 02:54, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Not necessarily. Both male bodied and transgender are controversial terms. There are different interpretations of what sex and gender mean and how they relate, and how they relate to trans experience. A lot of this language is contested or is in flux, I'm not sure how to resolve that. Ananiujitha (talk) 03:13, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

We resolve it by parroting what the sources stated. Wait, that's what we are doing already. Frankly I don't understand the desire to do otherwise. Two kinds of pork (talk) 03:22, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Well, shoot. How about leaving the wording as it stands now, and wiki-linking "felt female" to gender identity (as Bob K31416 suggested three days ago, two pages up from here)? Startswithj (talk) 03:27, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Somoene handed me a wine cooler over the weekend, and that being the only alcohol left I drank it. I felt female. Isn't there a link to GI in the article already? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Two kinds of pork (talk • contribs) 03:33, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Er, what? AlexTiefling (talk) 11:11, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

How about this?

"While in the army, Manning was known as Bradley and diagnosed with gender dysphoria. In a statement the day after sentencing, Manning said she felt female since childhood, wanted to be known as Chelsea, and requested hormone replacement therapy."

--Bob K31416 (talk) 15:32, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

I like it. Gets the GD link in, and mentions that up until Chelsea, she was known as Bradley (which isn't obvious and needs to be stated).--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:05, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

That will work. IMO Bradley is needed here (as well as all the other spots that were cleansed by Sunny Day). Not that we should be rubbbing her pre-trans name in people's faces, but this article is first and foremost about the person who leaked the largest tome of classified data to the public, and that person at the time and until quite recently was known 'Bradley Manning', and undoubtedly is still the most recognizable form of the name at the moment and for the foreseeable future. Anyone claiming to possess intellectual honesty knows this to be true. The COMMONMAME argument used for the recent topic change, was based upon the recent switch by new sources. I've no interest in rehashing that subject again. While we need to be cognizant of the sensitive nature of gender identiy, that does not give editors who appear to be on a pro-trans mission to to scour this and other articles of relevant information.Two kinds of pork (talk) 17:02, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Saying I'm on a "pro-trans mission" seems like an ad hominem attack to me. My motivations are irrelevant; what is relevant is whether particular changes I propose will improve the article or whether they won't. The only problem I have with Bob's proposed sentence is the phrase "felt female" being used in that context, but I understand most of the other editors don't agree with me on that so whatever. On the other hand, I'm actually OK with the usage of "Bradley" in the sentence. I'm generally in favor of as full a treatment of Manning's gender in the lead as possible. I think it's good to clarify for people when exactly she came out and how. And it's pertinent information that her entire time in the army--the most notable time of her life--was under the name Bradley.

On the other hand, it does not seem to add anything to the article to say in the Early Life section that she was born "Bradley." This is redundant; this exact same information occurs in the first sentence of the article. The fact that she was known as "Bradley" for most of her time in the public eye is important; the fact that she was born "Bradley" is fairly insignificant, and I believe is really a subtle way to mark her as being different for being trans, applying a standard to her that would not be applied to a non-trans person with a similar life history who had made a non-gender-related name change.

I mean, seriously. How is including the former name in BOTH the Info Box AND the Early Life section not "rubbing her pre-trans name in people's faces?" What extra information does this add or clarity does this provide? How many people skip the first sentence of an article where such information is clearly stated? I honestly don't understand how anyone could support inclusion of her former name in either the Info Box OR the Early Life section. . .but we should at the very least remove the former name from ONE of the two. I would say removing from the Early Life section is the most important since the use of her full former name here is verbose and clearly goes against Wikipedia's traditional Wikipedia:surname guideline. Rebecca Weaver (talk) 19:17, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

I feel fine with the proposed rewording and linking above (proposed by Bob and supported by Pork and Kenobi). I still think it would be overdoing it to repeat her name in that sentence, as it's already given in the paragraph's first sentence (and in bold print), as well as in the infobox to the right. Startswithj (talk) 19:39, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Sunny, I knew nothing about you before making that statement, so there is no ad homniem. In fact, I was not even thinking of you when I wrote that. From what I gather, infobox entries should be able to stand-alone from the rest of the article, so there is a need for Bradley being used there. Early life is the first use of the name other than the lead. After that, it's all Chelsea, except for the issue of the name change when the usage of Bradley is unavoidable. Two kinds of pork (talk) 19:56, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

But Wikipedia guidelines state that after the first mention of a subject's full name in the article, only their surname should be used from there on out. This guideline makes sense as it cuts out unnecessary words, enhances readability, and provides for a uniform style throughout all articles. And it seems especially advisable to follow this guideline here given how contentious the issue of Manning's first name has proven on Wikipedia. What is wrong with saying "Manning was born. . ." in the Early life section? It is clear to the reader who is being referred to, it follows Wikipedia style guidelines, and it avoids inflaming the name controversy. I do see now your point about the infobox, how it needs to stand alone, and how it is therefore important to include an alternate name, "Bradley," that she has been very famous under. But I really believe that including Manning's full birth name in the Early life section is breaking Wikipedia guidelines and singling her out for different treatment because she's trans. Do you disagree with my reasoning and if so, where? Rebecca Weaver (talk) 21:22, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

John Wayne, Snoop Dog, Muhammad Ali. I daresay those are the only articles where the birth names are repeated in an "early life" section. In fact, I think you would be hard pressed not to find most articles following such convention. I agree some are singling her because she is trans, as advocates.Two kinds of pork (talk) 21:36, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree with TKOP here. The early life section should be able to stand on its own. Take a look at Bill Clinton or Calvin_Coolidge or Jimmy Carter - and many many other examples. The lede is supposed to be a summary, and I think it's perfectly reasonable to state the full birthname at the time we talk about his birth. I don't think Manning's first name has proven to be controversial at all, and I don't recall - except for a recent set of edits by yourself - anyone making a big deal out of excising "Bradley" from the article. The debate was over the title and pronouns, not over when and how much the word "Bradley" could appear in the running text. I think once is not enough, and 20 times is too much, so we just need to find the middle ground.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 21:56, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

{{hat|result=per WP:NOTAFORUM; those who want to continue this discussion are welcome to bring it to my talk page, this is not the right place for it.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:57, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Does "his" in "..talk about his birth" refer to Chelsea Manning?? Georgia guy (talk) 22:00, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Yeah. . .I don't want to police your language, Obi-Wan, and I don't think MOS:IDENTITY is necessarily intended to apply to Talk pages. All the same, I'd like to ask you if you could avoid misgendering trans women on this talk page, and simply omit using any pronouns for Manning if you don't want to use female pronouns for her in a particular situation. I do believe I have valuable input to contribute here, and I want to keep contributing here, but it will be difficult for me as a trans woman to emotionally handle participating if the idea that trans women are (or were in the past) actually guys is something that gets repeatedly expressed here. So even if this is what you think, I would prefer you don't express it because it will detract from my ability to participate. Rebecca Weaver (talk) 22:39, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

there is an active debate at MOS about removing the requirement to use the new pronouns throughout life. I generally avoid pronouns but they do slip in from time to time and I suggest you just ignore them if they bother you in a particular tp comment. Best, --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 23:51, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm not going to ignore people misgendering trans women. It is profoundly disrespectful and bigoted behavior. Also, I wasn't appealing to the MOS. . .in fact, I specifically said that it may not apply here. But regardless of what the MOS currently says or may say in the future, what you did, Obi-Wan, is quite wrong. And the fact that you defended yourself, rather than apologized, is sickening to me. Since you have made it clear that you don't respect trans women as autonomous human beings with dignity, I will just have to entirely refrain from interacting with you from now on. That is too bad because it will make working on this page more difficult. Anyway, consider this my final interaction with you. Rebecca Weaver (talk) 00:06, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

wait, just to be clear, this is about a single 'his' above, when talking about Manning's birth? I don't know what good an apology would do, as I don't plan to self-censor myself from using different pronouns as seems appropriate to me in a given context. Nonetheless, I am sorry you were hurt by that word but I think you're overreacting, and I don't think me being sorry for hurting your feelings is the apology you were looking for in any case. The fact that you equate a single use of 'his' with not respecting the dignity of trans* people is evidence that you are taking things too personally that have nothing to do with you. Multiple sources that were cited copiously, including an lgbt journalist association, propose use of old pronouns for pre-transition descriptions. Even trans* people themselves, use a variety of pronouns for pre/post transition - your imposition of 'my way or the highway' here is not fair either.-Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 00:19, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm not certain, but I think Sunny read Georgia Guy's comment as yours. Either way, sunny should take a deep breath.Two kinds of pork (talk) 00:30, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

No, I did not read Georgia Guy's comment as Obi-Wan's comment. I WAS responding to Obi-Wan's comment. And I am perfectly calm. I simply refuse to interact with people who view me as having ever been male. Being forced to live as a guy against my will, based off of some bogus belief held by others that this is who I "actually was" was the most traumatizing experience of my life. Excuse me if I take a zero tolerance policy to those who continue to hold these toxic, inaccurate beliefs about trans women. In any event, I don't plan to continue making a big deal out of Obi-Wan's behavior. As I said, from now on I will simply not read or respond to anything Obi-Wan writes. This is how I always respond to any person who misgenders me or another trans woman and then refuses to correct themselves after their mistake has been pointed out to them. You may disagree with this, but I certainly am not going to make an unprecidented, one-of-a-kind exception in Obi-Wan's case. Rebecca Weaver (talk) 11:12, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

"refuse to interact with people who view me as having ever been male" - I never said anything about you being male - though I'm not sure why I need to point this out... You have no idea, nor do any of us, about what pronoun Chelsea would prefer when discussing their birth and early life, and as has been pointed out elsewhere, other people, including other trans* people and LGBT journalist organizations, feel differently about this than you. Part of editing wikipedia is encountering people with views different than yours. I am tolerant of your views, you should accord the same to me.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 11:26, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

I found the use to be needlessly offensive as well. Especially in the context of all the previous discussions on this article and elsewhere that misgendering someone causes real harm and makes for a toxic environment for trans* and sympathetic people. I hope your intentions were above board but the lack of empathy after it's been pointed out speaks to an entrenched attitude that doesn't respect a trans person's transition to being their true selves. That is a core concept of some culture wars that see trans people as one of the last bastions for rather unpleasant public treatments. I hope you never have to experience the hurt that is caused by being treated as less than human by strangers and even friends who just refuse to grasp how a core identity issue gender is, and how potent words are when dealing with other people. I'm glad we are making some forward movement but it's unfortunate that those of us who are sensitive to these issues still have to weather comments that sure feel unwelcoming, hostile, and yes transphobic at times. Sportfan5000 (talk) 00:28, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

well I think there's a sort of godwin's law for trans* discussions - given enough time, someone will bring out the transphobia stick. Anyway, I'm sorry for those whose feelings were hurt but I do not plan on watching over my pronouns like a hawk esp when speaking of pre-transition Manning and especially their birth as a boy; if such restrictions were in place it would be impossible to discuss MOS changes for example. None of this should be taken To imply that I support discrimination or bias towards trans* people nor as a commentary on their 'true' gender, but self identity is not the same as social identity, and as the many debates over cotton ceiling or wymyn-born wymyn indicate for example, there are still differences which are important - our society needs more time to sort out the boundaries of trans* identities, but beating ppl with a transphobia stick for a minor issue like 'his' in a sentence about Manning's birth is not helping the case.-Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 01:20, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Sure, there's a discussion about how to talk about a trans* person in an encyclopaedia, but if you're making casual reference in personal speech, why not just pick the polite option and avoid the appearance of bad faith, an appearance which you are surely very much aware of by now? You don't need to watch your pronouns "like a hawk" to adopt a blanket policy of she/her for this subject, and if you slip up it's easy to say "oops, sorry, fixed" and thus avoid threads like this one. Chris Smowton (talk) 09:03, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Now, how did my comment get a hat for not being related to improving the article?? It's related to the discussion. Here's the comment again:

Does "his" in "..talk about his birth" refer to Chelsea Manning?? Georgia guy (talk) 22:00, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

It's related to the above discussion, so it is relevant. Georgia guy (talk) 12:51, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

I agree for several reasons. The person's comments who started all this off should probably let someone uninvolved censor any discussion. That being said this entire thread probably can be closed by someone neutral as the original concern has been stated and resolved. Based on the Arbcom involvement based on these very same issues of abrasive comments and the reaction/non-action steps that followed it would follow that everyone would take extra steps to avoid offense. And if I offended anyone I will state unequivocally that that is never my goal. I'm here to improve the article and I hope everyone is as well. Addressing talk page comments is a part of ensuring that trans* people don't feel hesitancy to even comment here. We can disagree but be polite about it. Sportfan5000 (talk) 18:35, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

|}

Alright. . .given the examples that have been provided, I'm willing to acknowledge how the reference to Manning's full birth name in the early life section is within the precedent of what's been common practice on Wikipedia for other people who changed their name. So I'm no longer to going to push for entirely removing Manning's birth name from the info box or from the early life section. Rebecca Weaver (talk) 22:26, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

I support this version as well. It makes clear that Chelsea was known as Bradley and hadn't transitioned earlier, and addresses the chronological problem as her gender dysphoria diagnosis seems to predate most of not all of the leaking materials. Sportfan5000 (talk) 23:26, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Looks like there's consensus for this change, so I implemented it. --Bob K31416 (talk) 12:41, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Close?

I've certainly said my peace, if anyone else feels they haven't can certainly do so - I do support closing this entire thread but I'm not neutral here so will leave it as a suggestion. Sportfan5000 (talk) 18:37, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Call me Chelsea

Ignoring pointless asides like legal name, how the army refers to Manning, she asked to be referred to as Chelsea. That is what the sources reported, even the sources that continue to call her Bradley.Two kinds of pork (talk) 00:23, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

"In a statement on August 22, 2013, the day after sentencing, "

In a statement on August 22, 2013, the day after sentencing, is unneeded, especially for the opening paragraph. It puts some huge significance on the date itself which is misleading.

I think The day after sentencing does the job just fine or at the very most In August 2013, the day after her sentencing ... . Any thoughts? Sportfan5000 (talk) 18:56, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

The same idea that you want might work a little better with the wording, "The day after sentencing in August 2013, ...". --Bob K31416 (talk) 20:26, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

How about after "Manning was sentenced…" we add "…in August 2013…" (paralleling the earlier "…who was convicted in July 2013…")? And then begin the paragraph's final sentence simply as "In a statement the day after sentencing, Manning said…"? Startswithj (talk) 21:22, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Sportfan5000 (talk) 22:46, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Trans paragraph in lead

Sorry I kinda ducked out of the conversation for a while. Anyway, I like SportsFan's idea about removing the sentence about Manning coming out from the first paragraph and then adding a final paragraph to the lead that talks about it more in depth. I think the new paragraph could cite several sources about Manning's gender and the public reaction to it, including perhaps a brief direct quote from her coming out statement. Although Manning is still chiefly notable for her role in Wikileaks, it does seem like her role as a prominent transgender person is also worth more than a single sentence in the lead. This would allow for a more full treatment of her gender situation to clarify things to readers, citing multiple sources, and without having to resort to any potentially inaccurate paraphrases of Manning's statement. Rebecca Weaver (talk) 08:26, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for coming back, but in your abscene the article has stabilized, all of your recent changes are going to be contentious, so I've reverted them. There is no consensus to whitewash "Bradley" from the article. While the use should be minimized, most feel it is needed in a few places.Two kinds of pork (talk) 13:26, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't think we need more than a sentence. The only reason the announcement garnered any press at all was the particular circumstances of when it was made (immediately after the sentencing in the middle of a news cycle) and the fact that she was headed to prison.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 13:51, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

The article as it stands though is a bit illogical as it flips out of chronological order. That can be fixed in two ways as far as I can see. Either we mention her first diagnosis of gender dysphoria which predates the leaks or we bundle all the gender situation into a final paragraph. She came into wide prominence for the leaking of materials but her gender identity announcement was heavy reported and commented on regardless of the circumstances. Far more than most trans* celebrities. I think the first option would be better and would meld with the concurrent proposal above. Sportfan5000 (talk) 23:22, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't know if it's possible but we may consider restructuring the article to have a 'personal' section first that deals with birth, early life, sexuality, GID, and announcement, and then dive into the leaks etc. I'm not sure having them blended as they are now is necessarily the best way to tell the story, even if they are intertwined. But that would require major surgery. But yes we should make it clear somewhere that manning was diagnosed with GID before the leaks, although I don't think there's any evidence that this issue precipitated the leaks themselves - in other words, I don't think anyone is claiming Manning wouldn't have leaked if they were not trans*.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 23:56, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Well this is at the core of some of the disputes. I think her outsiderness definitely led to ostracism, even if some was self-imposed, and led her to thinking the leaks were a noble gesture toward a wider truth (or something). Were she not a sexual/gender minority a case could be made that she would have integrated into the military more successfully and would have found other avenues for her passionate stances. We may never know until the book(s) come out. Until then it's important to note that all this surrounds the same person so treating something so dramatically and personally impacting to her existence as trivial in any way, like a personal life section, seems like a mistake. Instead we likely should just let the sources lead the way that discuss what if any impact her gayness/trans* ness may have had on her decisions to leak materials. I've seen many trans people take risks and dare themselves onto new paths that they attributed to being an outsider of mainstream culture so they felt the risk was well worth it. Hopefully some well-crafted interviews will pull that information to the forefront. Sportfan5000 (talk) 00:08, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't think there's any evidence, anywhere, on any article, that a 'personal life' section is considered trivial, so I have no idea where that came from. People get married, have kids, etc and none of that is trivial to them.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 00:22, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

embittered?

embittered traitor seems very POV, should "embittered" be removed or can we cite a quote for that? Sportfan5000 (talk) 18:51, 23 October 2013 (UTC)