Wikipedia talk:Plagiarism

Possible or impossible?

Is it possible to plagiarize/violate copyright using the quote = parameter of {{Citation}}? There is at least one editor who thinks it is. Should this twist be addressed in this guideline? -- DanielPenfield (talk) 00:12, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Plagiarize no IMO, as the template associates the quote with the relevant source and so provides fairly precise attribution (assuming the details in the template are correct and complete); copyvio yes, as it would be theoretically possible to violate fair-use requirements. NB: haven't looked at the specific case being discussed there, just speaking to the general issue. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:11, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm having a hard time swallowing the WP:COPYVIO claim as well. Did you review Fair use? Regardless, should this guideline cover the use of quote =? -- DanielPenfield (talk) 12:50, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I've reviewed that; no, it shouldn't - as I said, unless the citation is flat-out wrong the situation you describe would not be plagiarism. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:10, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

So, I'm not really getting straight answers here. "No, it shouldn't" why? Isn't part of the purpose of this guideline to distinguish between what is plagiarism and what isn't? Why wouldn't you provide guidance for the overzealous editor who has a weak grasp of the definition of plagiarism? Furthermore you made the claim that "copyvio yes, as it would be theoretically possible to violate fair-use requirements". How is that possible given the conditions set forth in Fair use? -- DanielPenfield (talk) 13:39, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

In terms of copyright, it is very possible to violate copyright using the quote parameter. Fair use doesn't provide carte blanche for quotations - the use of quotations is limited by the four factors of fair use. For Wikipedia's purposes, fair use is restricted to WP:NFC content and guideline, which does discuss the need to use text transformatively. Very occasionally, an article is listed at WP:CP for overlong quotations. Frequently, these are truncated with a mix of proper paraphrase and more targeted quotes. I agree with Nikkimaria entirely that the case would not be plagiarism - if it's a quotation, it's attributed. A lot of people use the terms plagiarism/copyvio interchangeably, but they are really entirely separate things. In terms of placing that in this guideline, guidelines aren't for outlier issues, generally - if this becomes a common problem, it may be worth defining. But this is the first time that I ever recall hearing of anyone being accused of plagiarism for a quote. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 13:43, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

I came expecting a thoughtful response and am disappointed as usual. Had our roles been reversed, here's how I would have responded:

• "While it's theoretically possible to violate copyright, you'd really have to go to extremes to do so—extremes like copy-n-pasting the contents of a 900-page book into "quote =" or perhaps scooping someone's highly-anticipated soon-to-be bestseller before publication (though I don't know how you'd do this). In practical terms, however, Wikipedia, like any group undertaking, is bound by the lowest common denominator. In the United States, for example, most people's understanding of copyright comes from their middle and high school English teachers who were mostly interested in limiting their workloads. So if Wikipedians see more than a phrase presented verbatim in a citation, they're going to almost certainly cry WP:COPYVIO when the likelihood of the cited author feeling wronged at having two or three sentences quoted verbatim on Wikipedia (in a citation verification, nonetheless) is zero. As for your suggestion, we can help you formulate a proposal to add that case to Wikipedia:Plagiarism#What is not plagiarism. " -- DanielPenfield (talk) 16:55, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry that you're disappointed that you didn't get the response you wanted. :/ I would not give you that response, because it probably wouldn't work out well for you. We have copyright standards on Wikipedia. I do not know if your edit fell afoul of them; you didn't ask us to review that, and I didn't look. You asked "is it possible to plagiarize/violate copyright" with the quote field - the answer is probably not and yes, respectively. Those are accurate answers. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 17:07, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Well, thanks for the dismissal masquerading as a patronizing "message of concern for your well being"... -- DanielPenfield (talk) 17:35, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Right. Thank you for the hostile response to a good faith effort to answer your question honestly. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 19:45, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Visual aid on plagiarism and copyvios

Hello everyone, I'd like to suggest an addition that I hope will help editors better understand plagiarism and copyright violations for different types of sources. Having been mostly unfamiliar with concepts like "fair use" and "close paraphrasing" before coming to Wikipedia, I've learned quite a bit by navigating the various Wikipedia policies, guidelines, information pages, and essays about copyright and plagiarism. However, it's a lot of information spread out across a number of pages, and I thought that to make things clearer for editors who, like I did, have a limited understanding of many of these concepts, it would be helpful to have a visual aid that shows the relationships between them. What I have in mind is something like this:

Problems with Copying or Closely Paraphrasing a Source's Text

	Nonfree Source	Public Domain Source or Compatibly Licensed Source
Proper attribution	Sparingly: None (if it complies with WP:NFC) Extensively: Copyright violation	None
No or improper attribution	Copyright violation Plagiarism	Plagiarism

Does anyone have any thoughts on adding something like this to the page? –Prototime (talk · contribs) 03:53, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

I think it's a good idea, generally. :) That boils it down nicely. I'm not sure if the plagiarism guideline is the best place - but maybe WP:Copy-paste? I'd do the links a little bit differently. For "Nonfree Source", I'd link to WP:COMPLIC, I think. Wikipedia:Copyright violation is a better link for "Copyright violations" than "Wikipedia:Copyright violations on history pages", I think. The latter is an historical document and has no real current function. :) And I would nuance "Sparingly" for two reasons: there's more than just sparingly involved in determining if quotation is fair use, and Wikipedia doesn't rely on fair use solely. As WP:NFC notes, content should be fair use and compliant with our guideline. I'd probably go with "Sparingly: None (if complies with WP:NFC)". --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 13:15, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback! I had actually meant to link to Wikipedia:Copyright violations and not WP:Copyright violations on history pages, but I guess that's what I get for experimenting with this table in VisualEditor ;) I've fixed that above and added in the nuance on "sparingly". I was thinking about including something like this on the Plagiarism guideline (and maybe WP:Copyvio) since it is a more visible page that editors may be more likely to visit, but I suppose that's not a necessity; I agree that WP:Copy-paste would be good place for this too, and perhaps WP:Close paraphrasing. –Prototime (talk · contribs) 16:26, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Close paraphrasing

The existing wording is such that an editor has used this guideline to justify close paraphrases that contain the exact creative words as the source material. Apparently, because there is no note under the close paraphrasing description that states this, so are there any objections to adding a note there that states:

Note: when close paraphrasing, even with in-text attribution, distinctive words or phrases may require quotation marks.? Rationalobserver (talk) 16:29, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure that this guideline, as currently written, represents the position of the academic world regarding close paraphrasing and plagiarism:

Rationalobserver (talk) 19:21, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

You bring up a good point. I'm fine with adding the proposed language to the article, except I'd note that it's only a problem when closely paraphrasing from a nonfree source, since quotation marks are not required for free source material. And I recommend just slightly elaborating on "distinctive" to clarify that such words are basically being directly copied. So, maybe say:

Note: When closely paraphrasing a nonfree source, distinctive words or phrases that are copied verbatim from the source require quotation marks in addition to in-text attribution.

Thoughts? –Prototime (talk · contribs) 00:10, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Good point! That looks much better than my version. I fully agree with this language. Rationalobserver (talk) 15:52, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

I went ahead and added that note. Thanks! Rationalobserver (talk) 16:04, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Since we were missing the fifth form of plagiarism, I added an example here. Rationalobserver (talk) 16:40, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

This subject has had a lot of discussion in the past:

• Wikipedia_talk:Plagiarism/Archive_7#Phrases 'may' require quotation marks <-- probably the most pertinent

Some other sections containing some more conversations
Wikipedia talk:Plagiarism/Archive_6#In-text attribution Wikipedia_talk:Plagiarism/Archive 7#In-text attribution without quotation marks is insufficient Wikipedia talk:Plagiarism/Archive 8#Clarification of what "with very few changes" means Wikipedia talk:Plagiarism/Archive 9#Copyright violations

I do not approve of close paraphrasing of copyright material on Wikipedia because I think it causes more problems that it is worth. The point I have made to SlimVirgin, in the past is:

SV you say that to meet Wikipedia content polices and other guidelines, in-line attribution and an inline-citation are enough, but how is a reader to know if what I have just written is a summary of what you said or a direct quote unless quotes are marked as such? I would assume that although imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, to avoid copyright and plagiarism issues, I would have put in quotes an exact copy of your words. MRG has told me in the past that if a Wikiepdia editor use a well worn phrase -- as I did in the last sentence -- then those do not have to be quoted. On reading that last sentence would you assume that I was quoting verbatim what MRG said to me or paraphrasing what she said to me? -- PBS (talk) 01:11, 9 October 2010 (UTC) (Wikipedia talk:Plagiarism/Archive 6#In-text attribution)

There are some problems with your edits:

• copyleft sources are "non-free sources" but text copied from such a source if they have compatible licences there is no requirement for either in-text attribution or quotation marks.
• well worn phrase such as "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" do not have to be placed in quotation marks.

-- PBS (talk) 21:10, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

• That's a good point about well-worn phrases, but I'm not sure when that would occur in encyclopedic writing, as editors wouldn't be including clichés as if in their own voice, would they? Maybe I'm missing something. Also, per Wikipedia:Plagiarism#Public-domain sources: "Whether copyright-expired or in the public domain for other reasons, material from public-domain sources is welcome on Wikipedia, but such material must be properly attributed." Rationalobserver (talk) 21:20, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

please do not use bullet points when replying to other's comments as it tends to mess up indentation (as it has here).

Sorry and thanks for the advice! Rationalobserver (talk) 15:46, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Editors may not including clichés as if in their own voice but they may include them when close paraphrasing.

That's a good point, in fact I just ran into an example of this yesterday. What do you suggest? Rationalobserver (talk) 15:46, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Copyleft is not in the public domain (eg Wikipedia pages), if text from a copyleft is copied into Wikpedia it has to have a compatible licence with Wikpedia, but how it is attributed depends on the licence and Wikipedia content polices (just as text copied from one Wikiepdia article to another does). -- PBS (talk) 15:17, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Another good point; what do you suggest that we do? Rationalobserver (talk) 15:46, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

I think it would probably be best to break the section "Forms of plagiarism" into two. The first two points in boxes seem to be about plagiarism in general, whatever its source origin. The last two and your additional one seem to be specifically about copyrighted material. If such a distinction was made through sectioning then a lot of complications in the second half disappear. Large chunks of this guideline probably need to be reorganised in similar ways for example in-text attribution is not usually required for PD and copyleft sources (it is done thorough inline citations and attribution in the References section, see any of these articles. The argument against this as expressed by SlimVirgin is that the legitimate copying text into Wikipedia is a minority sport and the guideline should emphasise guidance to ordinary non-experienced users using copyright text. -- PBS (talk) 19:10, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

I share your concerns regarding this guideline, and it also occurred to me that it might benefit from a substantial re-working. Washington University Law School takes the position that there are two types of plagiarism: Appropriation of Another’s Words and Appropriation of Another’s Ideas or Concepts. Harvard says there are five distinct types: Verbatim plagiarism, Mosaic plagiarism, Inadequate paraphrase, Uncited paraphrase, and Uncited quotation. Maybe that's a good starting point. What do you think we should do first? Rationalobserver (talk) 19:48, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Seeing that you just made this edit at WP:Citing sources, and are making substantial changes to a longstanding guideline, I feel that you should be seeking wider Wikipedia input on this matter, such as a WP:RfC. The guideline has stated for sometime, and still currently does state (unless you go ahead and change that as well), that "Sometimes close paraphrasing is appropriate or even unavoidable." And yet you have added the following line to it and to WP:Citing sources: "When closely paraphrasing a non-free source, distinctive words or phrases that are copied verbatim from the source require quotation marks in addition to in-text attribution." Really? So, I have to put a word in quotation marks because the source used that same word and the source is non-free? I'm not buying it. How do we define what is "distinctive," and I more so mean a distinctive word, and what is automatically a WP:Copyvio because of that? I'm very tempted to revert all of your changes on this matter, and start widely publicizing this discussion. Flyer22 (talk) 22:23, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

All the changes that I've made are consistent with academia. If you aren't sure what distinctive means, I'll give you an example. John Smith was a prodigious worker who was also considered obtuse. The only distinctive words in that example are "prodigious" and "obtuse". Notre Dame says, "Check your paraphrase against the original text to be sure you have not accidentally used the same phrases or words". Rationalobserver (talk) 22:38, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Per the University of Virginia: "In general, you will avoid plagiarism if you cite the sources you paraphrase and, if you use words or phrases that are distinctive to your original source, you use quotation marks as well. You should err on the side of attribution and quotation marks if you want to avoid plagiarism." Do you dispute this, or do you think that my edits are not consistent with this ethos? Rationalobserver (talk) 22:49, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

• Per Wikilegal/Close Paraphrasing, Question: "Is close paraphrasing of a copyrighted work a copyright infringement?" Answer: "Yes. Among other rights, copyright law grants a copyright owner exclusive control over any unauthorized copying of the copyrighted work.[1] Paraphrasing may be construed as copying if it is 'substantially similar' to the copyrighted material. Such paraphrasing infringes on one of the exclusive rights of the copyright owner." Rationalobserver (talk) 22:41, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Like I stated at my talk page, I appreciate your knowledge. However, I'm going to revert all of your changes regarding WP:Plagiarism, pending discussion (except for your talk page comments of course). Your edits will obviously still be in the edit history and can be salvaged at any time. Like I stated at the WP:Plagiarism talk page, you should take this matter to WP:RfC. Substantive changes to Wikipedia policies and guidelines, especially the big changes you are making regarding how Wikipedia treats plagiarism, should have WP:Consensus. I don't think that they should be molded by you alone with input from one other editor. Now that I've objected, I think that these pages should be reverted to the WP:STATUSQUO. So that is what I am going to do. That Wikipedia policies and guidelines should reflect WP:Consensus is stated at the top of these pages. We don't automatically base Wikipedia policies and guidelines on what academia states, and certainly not on what a lone Wikipedia editor believes is the consensus among academics (no matter if that Wikipedia editor is an expert or not an expert).

You have been making a lot of changes to Wikipedia policies and guidelines, and I'm generally not a believer in WP:Be bold when it comes to these pages. Reverting you on this matter is not personal. For example, at the talk page of Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines, it's noted that I recently reverted additions because I think that significant changes to Wikipedia policies or guidelines should generally be discussed at the talk pages of those policies or guidelines first and that this "is indeed a good enough reason to revert, as is made clear by the notes at the top of these pages, and as has been made clear time and time again by my reverting in such cases, including the aforementioned WP:Reliable sources edit. It's been often enough that changes have been made to policies and guidelines only to be reverted months later because a significant number of editors missed that WP:Creep instance. WP:Silent consensus is too often a fail, which is why it's also only an essay. I uphold WP:Consensus until that is no longer the WP:Consensus." It took Arthur Rubin coming in to uphold my revert. So reverting on matters like these is simply how I am. If you don't start a WP:RfC on this WP:Plagiarism matter and/or invite the WP:Village pump to weigh in on it, then I will. But I advise you to do so. Simply trying to debate me on the matter will not cut it. Flyer22 (talk) 23:21, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't have time for a drawn-out process, but feel free of course to retain the flawed guidelines and force those who understand this issue to jump though hoops and expend energy they don't have. I can safely say that the version you will be reverting is misleading and inaccurate. But I guess if the Wikipedia consensus was such that the Earth was deemed to be flat, anyone who tried to correct that obvious mistake might face the same opposition. The word pedantic comes to mind, but that's fine, as you are supported by consensus. Rationalobserver (talk) 23:28, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Note: This matter has been taken to Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Is close paraphrasing acceptable?. A WP:Permalink to that discussion is here. Flyer22 (talk) 19:18, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

This issue has been resolved. Rationalobserver (talk) 17:05, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

RfC

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I would like to add the following language as a note under Close paraphrasing and in-text attribution in Wikipedia:Plagiarism#Avoiding plagiarism.

* Note: When closely paraphrasing a nonfree source, any directly appropriated words or phrases that are distinctive to the source material require quotation marks in addition to in-text attribution.

Support adding the proposed language

1. I fail to see why calling a piece of writing close paraphrasing should exempt that material from the standard advice offered for examples of No quotation marks, in-text attribution, which is: "even with in-text attribution, distinctive words or phrases may require quotation marks". As far as I can tell, the working definitions of these two examples are nearly identical. Per Wikipedia:Copyright violations: "Even inserting text copied with some changes can be a copyright violation if there's substantial linguistic similarity in creative language or structure; this is known as close paraphrasing (which can also raise problems of plagiarism)." Rationalobserver (talk) 16:49, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
2. Strong support. Excellent proposal. It's hard to comprehend a good reason to object to this. Unless one supports plagiarism, of course. Viriditas (talk) 03:20, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
3. Support I've seen some long sections quoted in citations before, and part of the site purpose is to avoid using hosting free content. I'd go into more detail and describe a limit or else we have none. Although the link to close paraphrasing is part of the text, I don't think discussion about that is relevant here. I don't think limits are unclear about close paraphrasing. ~ R.T.G 01:05, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Oppose adding the proposed language

1. Oppose. I reject the idea that Wikipedia can use academic models. All the academic websites quoted here deal with student papers they are required to submit in registered university courses for academic credit in which students are required to produce originality. The rules deal with cheating by taking academic credit for someone else's originality. We have an OPPOSITE system at Wikipedia--we strongly discourage originality, and we do not give academic credit for which a student can cheat. Rjensen (talk) 17:13, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
2. Oppose. We absolutely should provide attribution to every available piece of source material we can, however the use of quotation marks should be restricted to verbatim quotations. Though officially discouraged, Wikipedia WILL be cited widely, and we should avoid any chance of spoiling legitimate quotes - which will be propagated from us via Chinese whispers. — xaosflux ^Talk 18:31, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
3. Oppose - Guideline creep. Don't fix what ain't broken, as they say... (Or should that be Don't "fix" what ain't "broken"???) Carrite (talk) 20:25, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
4. Oppose the creep of the (from the point of view of my European culture) absolutely weird American plagiarism paranoia into Wikipedia. We have all we need about close paraphrasing and plagiarism in our current policies. --cyclopia^speak! 21:14, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
5. Oppose; this is already being extensively discussed at the WP:Village pump, with a WP:RfC going on there as well, and multiple editors have disagreed with Rationalobserver's proposals for valid reasons. I told him the following there, "In short, I stated that what you are trying to enforce -- consistently defining what is a distinctive word and stating that we have to put that perceived distinctive word in quotation marks because it's from a copyrighted source -- is difficult to enforce. And others above, especially Rjensen, are in agreement with that. In some cases, will putting that perceived distinctive word in quotation marks be justified? Perhaps. But because what is a distinctive word can be prone to debate, far more so than phrases that are clearly distinct from whatever sources, and because Wikipedia allows limited WP:Close paraphrasing (whether with WP:Intext-attribution or otherwise), I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of cases involving a 'distinctive word' will not require quotation marks unless it's a matter where substantial WP:Close paraphrasing has ensued. But in a case where substantial WP:Close paraphrasing has ensued, the article needs cleanup in that regard anyway." Many people at Wikipedia consider Moonriddengirl the foremost expert on copyright and plagiarism issues on Wikipedia, and she has disagreed with Rationalobserver as well. Having two WP:RfCs going on regarding this matter is not productive, in my opinion, and is rather disruptive, especially since Rationalobserver does not seem to be truly considering anyone's viewpoint but his own; this is also why Elvey recently told him to drop the stick. Flyer22 (talk) 03:48, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
6. Oppose Common sense and the current guidelines are enough to determine plagiarism vs close paraphrasing. Let's for the moment assume that the guideline is rooted in academic standards, which I do not completely agree with. As mentioned already, the standards of academia do not directly transfer to here. There is no specific author of an article on WP, WP is not a formal academic source or a reliable source, nor is anyone making money or reputation off what they write on WP. WP is a hobby for most people. Don't fix what is not broken. Kingsindian ♝♚ 17:04, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
7. This is only a weak oppose, because I agree with the sentiment but not with the change in wording. I agree with other editors who have said that this is common sense and instruction creep. Editorial judgment comes into play when deciding whether or not certain wording is distinctive. I also do not see why it matters, in terms of quotation marks, whether the source is free or non-free. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:25, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
8. Oppose. (For transparency, my comment was solicited by User:Rationalobserver.) I don't at all object to using quotation marks around distinctive phrases from non-free sources; in fact, I'm for it. But that's already required, explicitly, in this guideline: "Regardless of plagiarism concerns, works under copyright that are not available under a compatible free license must comply with the copyright policy and the non-free content guideline. This means they cannot be extensively copied into Wikipedia articles. Limited amounts of text can be quoted or closely paraphrased from nonfree sources if such text is clearly indicated in the article as being the words of someone else; this can be accomplished by providing an in-text attribution, and quotation marks or block quotations as appropriate, followed by an inline citation". The guideline also defers concerns with non-free content elsewhere: "If you find duplicated text or media, consider first whether the primary problem is plagiarism or copyright infringement. If the source is not in the public domain or licensed compatibly with Wikipedia, or if you suspect that it is not, you should address it under the copyright policies." So, this addition isn't necessary for copyright reasons, and when it comes to plagiarism, the copyright status of the source isn't determinative. Whether it's copyrighted or not copyrighted, plagiarism is plagiarism (however it is defined). The guideline already says "Note: even with in-text attribution, distinctive words or phrases may require quotation marks." It's very visible in the document, and it's true regardless of whether the source is copyrighted or not. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 21:35, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
9. Oppose. Agree with what Moonridengirl said. Rationalobserver, drop the stick. This is not academia. Plagiarism per se is not a copyright violation. --{{U|Elvey}} ^(t•c) 05:59, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
10. Appropriating individual words or phrases is unavoidable if one does not want to engage in original research or write awkward prose. Putting them all between quotation marks would look silly.  Sandstein  16:05, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
11. Oppose Individual words are not copyrightable. Whether a given passage so closely follows the source it's plagiarism will always be a matter of judgement, and changing the policy page will not bring more clarity to those decisions. NE Ent 01:58, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Discussion

• According to the Universtiy of Idaho: "Cite, Reference or Document your sources: Whenever you quote verbatim two or more words in a row, or even a single word or label that's distinctive ... Words you take verbatim from another person need to be put in quotation marks, even if you take only two or three words; it's not enough simply to cite."
• According to Wabash College: "All words that come directly from a source must be indicated by quotation marks (or, in the case of a long block quote, other clear formatting). This includes short phrases or even single words, not just whole sentences."
• According to Bemidji State: "you should always directly quote any single words or phrases that are distinctive to your source."
• According to Dedman College of Humanities and Sciences: "You have not taken any words from any other piece of writing-published, unpublished, or online-without putting quotation marks around such words and indicating their source. This pledge pertains to phrases as well as whole sentences, and even to significant single words, such as those that express opinion or judgment."
• According to Portland State University: "Quotation marks are required for even a single word, however, if it is especially colorful or represents the original writer's judgment."
• According to Palgrave: "Even a single word, if it is distinctive to your author's argument. You must use quotation marks and cite the source."
• According to the University of Melbourne: "Use quotation marks for even a single word if the original author used it in a special or central way."
• According to Bates College: "Whenever you use exact words from a source, you must enclose them in quotation marks (or use a block if the quotation is lengthy) and provide a full citation. Even a single word or brief phrase, if it's distinctive, should go in quotation marks."
• According to the University of North Carolina: "Partial Quotation: In some cases, you may want to use only part of a sentence you found in a source—perhaps just a phrase or even a single word. As with a full quotation, you must place the exact words you borrow within quotation marks."

I.e., this isn't only about strange or unusual words, but rather ordinary words that carry a bulk of the sentence's creativity; e.g., "any single words or phrases that are distinctive to your source", "even to significant single words, such as those that express opinion or judgment", "especially colorful or represents the original writer's judgment", "if it is distinctive to your author's argument", or "if the original author used it in a special or central way". I would also like to point out that this note:

"even with in-text attribution, distinctive words or phrases may require quotation marks"

is currently included under No quotation marks, in-text attribution. Apparently, the way the guideline is structured, this advice applies only to examples of No quotation marks, in-text attribution and not Close paraphrasing and in-text attribution, but I am not aware of any compelling argument that those labels justify radically different standards, nor am I aware of any third party sources that suggest one can take verbatim words and phrases from nonfree material without putting them in quotes, except for examples of shared language and common knowledge. Rationalobserver (talk) 16:49, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

• Rjensen, can you offer any explanation of why this: "even with in-text attribution, distinctive words or phrases may require quotation marks" is appropriate for the example: No quotation marks, in-text attribution, but not for close paraphrasing? Rationalobserver (talk) 17:17, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

• Carrite, can you offer any explanation of why this: "even with in-text attribution, distinctive words or phrases may require quotation marks" is appropriate for the example: No quotation marks, in-text attribution, but not for close paraphrasing? Rationalobserver (talk) 20:39, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

• Reading this, I don't like the example much. The source says Cottage Cheese for Beginners is the most boring book I've ever read. -- the article reads John Smith wrote in The Times that Cottage Cheese for Beginners was the most boring book he had ever read. I view this as tolerable in the sense that I don't think we should take administrative action against users who write well within ordinary Fair Use boundaries, especially in a case as trivial as this - plagiarism is, as said by others above, an academic issue not directly relevant to Wikipedia editors - but it is not ideal. The reason isn't in really in the phylum of copyright and attribution at all, but rather is due to issues of NPOV and original research: I don't want "Wikipedia's voice" to call someone's hard work "the most boring book". Rather, I would like to see John Smith wrote in The Times that Cottage Cheese for Beginners was "the most boring book" he had ever read. as the better form, to keep up a firm wall between our text and his. Though admittedly... looking over it all again, it's a pretty near thing, and a pretty minor issue, either way. Wnt (talk) 20:28, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

That's exactly what I'm saying. The example implies that one can appropriate the creative words from a source without having to put them in quotation marks, which is ridiculous. Rationalobserver (talk) 20:37, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

I think it's possible to misinterpret your suggestion as meaning to quote "the most boring book he had ever read", which of course is right out; I think one person above might have done so. But I wouldn't call the opposing position "ridiculous" because people might say that quoting "the most boring book" breaks up the flow of text or highlights the phrase too much, and, well, there's a point to that. Wnt (talk) 20:54, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

I guess I'm not up on Wikispeak, and I am really confused by the opposition. FTR, I would enclose only "most boring book", as that's the part that conveys the original author's judgment. As this guideline is currently written, it implies that editors can appropriate many words from a source as long as they are attributed in-text: "Sometimes close paraphrasing is appropriate or even unavoidable. Add in-text attribution so that the reader knows you are relying on someone else's words or flow of thought", but I have never before heard someone argue that one can appropriate any of the author's original words, except those that are shared language or common knowledge, without placing them in quotation marks. The true definition of paraphrasing focuses on the onus to use your own words, so that any words that you borrow must be indicated with quotation marks, as a writer is claiming as their own any distinctive words taken from the source that are not in quotes. Rationalobserver (talk) 21:08, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Wnt, can you offer any explanation of why this: "even with in-text attribution, distinctive words or phrases may require quotation marks" is appropriate for the example: No quotation marks, in-text attribution, but not for close paraphrasing? Rationalobserver (talk) 21:09, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

I apologize, but I lost track of what the difference is here; I'm too confused to answer. Wnt (talk) 21:18, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

That's kind of my point about this guideline. Why would you be exempt as long as you say it's a close paraphrase? Rationalobserver (talk) 21:22, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

• Per Wikipedia:Copyright violations: "Even inserting text copied with some changes can be a copyright violation if there's substantial linguistic similarity in creative language or structure; this is known as close paraphrasing (which can also raise problems of plagiarism)." Rationalobserver (talk) 21:31, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

This page is intended for discussion of the Plagiarism content guideline. Herein lies off topic commentary regarding each other by users Elvey and Rationalobserver NE Ent 02:29, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
RFC closure I closed the RFC above; Rationalobserver reverted. I warned him; Rationalobserver reverted. I then warned him for a personal attack that followed; Rationalobserver reverted. See his contributions for diffs. --{{U|Elvey}} (t•c) 18:48, 7 October 2014 (UTC) Per: Wikipedia:Requests for comment#Ending RfCs: "There are several ways that RfCs end: the question may be withdrawn by the poster, it may be moved to another dispute resolution forum, such as mediation, the RfC participants can agree to end it, or it can be formally closed by any uninvolved editor." You are obviously involved, so you shouldn't have closed it in the first place. Rationalobserver (talk) 18:57, 7 October 2014 (UTC) You seem to have avoided including in your quote the immediately following, and relevant clause at Wikipedia:Requests for comment#Ending RfCs: "However, if the matter under discussion is not contentious and the consensus is obvious to the participants, then formal closure is neither necessary nor advisable." I believed the consensus was obvious to the participants. It seems it wasn't obvious to you. If I misjudged ability to judge consensus, I'm sorry. When you restored the RfC, you also removed my comment on the RfC, which, importantly, explained the problems and reasons for closure.--{{U|Elvey}} (t•c) 23:58, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Additional comments by Fyer22

Note: I'm not seeing what Rationalobserver is seeing with the change in the guideline. It still states that the "in-text attribution, no quotation marks, text closely paraphrased, inline citation" approach is fine. There is no emphasis on the type of "distinctive word" rationale he was pushing. Flyer22 (talk) 17:39, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

At her talk page, Moonriddengirl explained to me that "Note: even with in-text attribution, distinctive words or phrases may require quotation marks" applies to all examples, and the note need not be repeated as I proposed. I.e., I was correct all along. Rationalobserver (talk) 17:51, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Going by what you proposed for WP:Plagiarism, and what has been stated above and at the WP:Village pump, you were nowhere close to being right all along. The guideline has stated for some time that "distinctive words or phrases may require quotation marks," which was pointed out to you by me and others linking you to WP:Plagiarism. You also pointed it out during a lot of debating on your "distinctive word" angle. Your mission was to define what distinctive words are and to state that those words require quotation marks. You were incorrect, and still are; the guideline still does not try to define what distinctive words are, at least not in the way that you attempted to do, and it still does not state that quotation marks are necessary for "distinctive words." So let's not pretend that your proposals were the same as what SlimVirgin and Moonriddengirl altered the guideline to be. And as for your snarky comment in the discussion at Moonriddengirl's talk page that got archived before I could reply, yes, smart move by Moonriddengirl, since what was embarrassing about our interactions was you acting all superior to everyone, obsessing over this "distinctive word" matter for days, WP:Forum shopping and the like, WP:Templating a regular in a silly need to intimidate, and acting as though you can dictate what goes on my user talk page.

And to others, take note that I did not add the Flyer22 heading. Flyer22 (talk) 18:15, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) It applies to all examples? If true, then perhaps it should be clarified that this rule does not apply to duplicating material from free sources. The guideline explicitly states "If a Wikipedia article is constructed through summarizing reliable sources, but there is a paragraph or a few sentences copied from compatibly licensed or public-domain text which is not placed within quotations, then putting an attribution template in a footnote at the end of the sentences or paragraph is sufficient." –Prototime (talk · contribs) 18:15, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

I only meant that it applies to all close paraphrases of nonfree material. The example that was there under close paraphrasing before I started this discussion implied that verbatim words could be used from a nonfree source. The example that's there now under "In-text attribution, no quotation marks, text closely paraphrased, inline citation" constitutes a fair paraphrase that does not appropriate any distinctive language from the source material; thus the ambiguity is resolved to my satisfaction. Rationalobserver (talk) 18:49, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. –Prototime (talk · contribs) 16:05, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Function of examples

This is related to the above RFC to the extent that User:Rationalobserver was asking at my talk page how these two examples differ:

Y No quotation marks, in-text attribution

• Indirect speech—copying a source's words without quotation marks; this also requires in-text attribution and an inline citation. For example:

• John Smith wrote in The Times that Cottage Cheese for Beginners was the most boring book he had ever read.

Y Close paraphrasing and in-text attribution

• Close paraphrasing: Sometimes close paraphrasing is appropriate or even unavoidable. Add in-text attribution so that the reader knows you are relying on someone else's words or flow of thought.

• John Smith wrote in The Times that Cottage Cheese for Beginners was a really boring read.

Is anybody able to explain how these two usages differ? That is, they both appear to me to be close paraphrasing, without quotation marks, using in-text attribution. Unless there's a substantive, articulable difference, I'd propose just merging it down into one example. (This would pretty much just eliminate any confusion over the placement of the note.)

That said, if there is a substantive, articulable difference, better explanation of that within the guideline would be helpful. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 01:35, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Hi, I've changed the examples (adapted from the Harvard guide) to make clearer what the distinctions are. Have a look and see what you think. They seem to cover most of the issues we see on WP. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 04:32, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

I think that's much clearer. Hopefully others will find it so as well. Thanks, SlimVirgin. :) --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 10:55, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

That's much better! Thanks, SlimVirgin and Moonriddengirl. Rationalobserver (talk) 17:18, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm glad it's okay. Thanks, Moonriddengirl and Rationalobserver, for the feedback. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 00:48, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Additional forms of plagiarism: with copyright sources

Prototime: with regards to this edit can you please explain why you consider an additional subheading to be "unnecessary", because AFAICT while the other "Forms of plagiarism" apply to both text copied from copyright sources and PD sources, the last one only applies to copyright sourced as it is unusual to use in-text attribution for copyleft and PD sources unless the attribution is needed for non-NPOV reasons. -- PBS (talk) 15:50, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

The headings didn't recognize that distinction--"forms of plagiarism" is a general term, and so is "additional forms of plagiarism" (which is also unnecessarily plural, given that only one type was then given). If that distinction is important to recognize in subheadings (which I'm not sure why it would be, given that the text itself is clear), I'd suggest there be two subheadings that explicitly recognize that difference, one for "Free and nonfree sources", and the other for "Nonfree sources only". –Prototime (talk · contribs) 17:23, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

The first (parent) section was for both, the second one just for copyright source. If you wish to change them to something you think more appropriate the by all means do so, but that is not a reason for removing the section header completely. Also such as "external links" and "References" are used in articles whether or not there is more than one entry in the section. Again if you objected to the "unnecessarily plural" you could always make it singular without deleting it. -- PBS (talk) 13:52, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

As I said, the distinction was not clear from the subheading, which is why I deleted it; it didn't appear to have a discernible purpose. But now that you've illuminated the likely purpose, I have no problem making new subheadings that better achieve that goal. –Prototime (talk · contribs) 16:04, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Recent revert

PBS, my thinking is that "make it easy to plagiarize inadvertently" is a poor construction that implies that this is an honest mistake that is bound to happen. On the other hand, "make it challenging for editors to avoid inadvertent plagiarism" seems more to the point, with the proper connotation that it is a challenge to do it correctly, versus it's easy to plagiarize. I also think that "susceptible" is a better term for this than "vulnerable", which carries a victim-like connotation. This is a very minor point, so I won't belabor it, but I'm not sure your revert restored a preferable version. Rationalobserver (talk) 20:26, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

You would not have made the changes unless you thought then am improvement. I would not have reverted if I did not think the other wording more appropriate, so I guess we will have to wait to see what others think. -- PBS (talk) 20:44, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Avoiding plagiarism

The section "Avoiding plagiarism" has problems, there is no example of how copying text from copyleft and PD sources is handled on Wikipedia. Either the title needs changing or more examples need to be added.

I suggest that the title is changed to "Avoiding plagiarism from text under copyright" and a top note added to link to the section called "Copying material from free sources". -- PBS (talk) 16:37, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

PBS, I would oppose doing that, and I think we ought to remove any implication that there is a difference between free and non-free when judging whether a text has been plagiarized. If we insert a source's words into an article and don't acknowledge the source in the text, it makes no difference whether the source material is still under copyright when judging whether it has been plagiarized. That is, when we decide to write "Smith (2014) argued that" to give Smith credit, the same considerations apply to Smith (1814).

The only difference between the two is that, with the latter, there is no copyright violation if we reproduce the text, but that's a separate issue. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 06:07, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

SV if it is a matter of attribution of a POV then yes one would write "Smith argued that", as of course one would attribute things like poetry, but for the majority of text that is copied form PD and copy left sources, the way that attribution is done is not usually through in-text attribution. How it is done is laid out in detail in Wikipedia:Plagiarism#Copying material from free sources and while it may include in-text attrition, attribution can be done in other ways as well, but surly you must already know this from reading the guideline and the long conversations on these talk pages, in which you have been involved. -- PBS (talk) 06:43, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

I've never agreed with the guideline on those points, though, PBS, and I don't know where the consensus came from for that view to be added. The situation is this: If we add text to an article, it must be sourced, per V and NOR. Those sources must be acknowledged as inline citations (in footnote or parenthetical style), per V. When we quote or closely paraphrase, we need in-text attribution too, per V and CITE. Whether the source material is free or non-free makes no difference.

I think you may be confusing publishers with sources. For example, if we were to insert a Citizendium article into WP, we would note at the end that it had come from Citizendium. But it would still have to be sourced, and where appropriate would still need in-text attribution (regardless of Citizendium's rules; it's now on WP, so WP rules apply).

Perhaps there are editors who are creating articles by mixing up text they have written and text that other authors have written, if the latter articles are free? If that's happening, it's not a good thing, precisely because it confuses author-as-publisher/author-as-source, and copyright/plagiarism. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 06:58, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Break

As you saw, I already noted my problems with the section here and here. Right now, the lead and that section currently relay that, "In addition to an inline citation, in-text attribution is usually required when quoting or closely paraphrasing source material." I don't agree with the "usually" part; this is because, per Wikipedia:Citing sources#In-text attribution, presenting basic facts with in-text attribution can be misleading. All in-text attribution does in a "basic facts" case is make a fact look like an opinion. Sure, we can add that the statement is the majority view or is a widespread view, like the WP:In-text attribution guideline states and like Moonriddengirl acknowledged with this edit, which seemed to be a response to my complaint. But it's not always a "view" matter; sometimes it's simply a "fact" matter, and I don't see the problem with close paraphrasing in those cases, without naming the author who commented on that fact. And if it's best not to go with close paraphrasing in such cases, then why can't simply putting the quote in quotation marks be enough? If a reader or editor wants to know who made that statement, they can check the reference (unless it's an offline reference or "pay to read" reference that requires more work to access). And, sure, we can simply reword everything in our own words, but sometimes the source has stated the matter better than can be paraphrased. And sometimes, like WP:Close paraphrasing notes, close paraphrasing is unavoidable.

It often annoys me to see in-text attribution unnecessarily used for non-WP:Notable authors or commentators; just seeing the quotation marks for the quote without the author being mentioned in the text tells me that the Wikipedia editor is aware of plagiarism and is not trying to take credit for the text. The text often flows better to me without seeing the WP:Notable or non-WP:Notable author, commentator or publication mentioned, especially if it keeps those instances from being WP:Red linked; for example, when a Wikipedia editor is quoting a dictionary in the lead of an article (Wikipedia editors usually do that without in-text attribution, by the way), I don't like seeing that dictionary mentioned unless necessary, especially since in-text attribution in that case makes it look like that dictionary is the only dictionary that holds that view. I often feel similar to Template:According to whom: "Do not use this tag for material that is already supported by an inline citation. If you want to know who holds that view, all you have to do is look at the source named at the end of the sentence or paragraph. It is not necessary to inquire 'According to whom?' in that circumstance." Flyer22 (talk) 03:52, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Just wanted to note that using your source's words just because they stated it better is not necessarily transformative. :) If the source is non-free, there needs to be a valid reason to quote, such as those described at WP:NFC. Where close paraphrasing is unavoidable and quotation may not be the answer is when there are limited ways to express the fact. In that case, creativity is low and plagiarism is less of an issue. I think it would be ridiculous to state in an article, "John Smith was, in the words of Fred Jones, born in Hartford, Connecticut." :) But if we're closely paraphrasing because the author has said it particularly well - not just because everybody would say it about the same way - then I think in-text attribution is generally appropriate. In that case, we are closely following the author's words because the language is creative (and artistic and apt) and not because it isn't. Citation doesn't, in the absence of quotation marks, suggest in any way that we are appropriating expression without in-text attribution, and plagiarism is not just about acknowledging who holds views - it's about acknowledging creative expression of views.

WP:MOSQUOTE sets out the minimal attribution requirement - in-text for full sentence or more. Sometimes in-text may be appropriate for smaller chunks, and sometimes perhaps not. I think it is a question of local style whether it's better to say "Foo is defined as 'the definition of foo'.[citation]" or "Foo is defined, in the words of Fee, as 'the definition of foo'.[citation]" (That said, copying from dictionaries can be risky, at least if our own article is a stub. Some people think the brevity of the content makes it okay, but in fact the heart of dictionary writing is far more concise than encyclopedia writing.) But I always worry when I see articles constructed with liberally quoted phrases and no in-text attribution at all that what we are seeing is an editor who is using somebody else's words in a non-transformative manner because they cannot or will not create free content themselves. :/ --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 13:36, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for commenting, Moonriddengirl. It's because of your and my comments above that I still feel that the aforementioned use of "usually" is not appropriate in the guideline. I think "often" would be better. If we are to keep "usually," then we should at least amend that with something about basic facts and perhaps with one or two other things we stated above. Again, there is the matter of briefly quoting from a publication, such as a dictionary, while putting that quote in quotation marks without mentioning that the quote is from that publication. And I'm speaking of "basic fact" matters, rather than "opinion" matters, though dictionaries can sometimes differ in their statements. What do you think of the quoting from dictionaries, without naming the dictionaries, at the Slut article? I did not add those quotes or quotation marks, but I see that type of quoting often on Wikipedia, including in WP:Good and WP:Featured articles, and especially in articles about words or in Etymology sections. And what these dictionaries are stating are usually in every other dictionary, or almost every other dictionary, which is why I see WP:In-text attribution in those cases as usually or often inappropriate. Also, from my several years of experience on Wikipedia, most editors (and I mean a significant number of experienced Wikipedians as well) seemingly don't even check the WP:Plagiarism guideline or don't know about it. They are more likely to know about and check the WP:In-text attribution guideline. Flyer22 (talk) 15:23, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Dictionary definitions are fully copyrightable, so they should always differ in their statements unless there is license or they are using an out-of-copyright base. :) I myself would identify the source in that use, somewhat like the definition in this guideline is clearly identified. I wouldn't call it plagiarism, though. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 19:47, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

If you look at this, this, this and this dictionary source for the term slut, they have the same or close to the same definitions. So that's what I mean by not crediting a sole dictionary as though it's the only one with that definition, and is also what I meant by "though dictionaries can sometimes differ in their statements." Flyer22 (talk) 00:02, 13 October 2014 (UTC)