Talk:Naturopathy

NPOV: Naturopathic medicine is replete with pseudoscientific, ineffective, unethical, and possibly dangerous practices

I am questioning the neutrality WP:NPOV of the sentence: "Naturopathic medicine is replete with pseudoscientific, ineffective, unethical, and possibly dangerous practices".. My edits have been rejected by Alexbrn.
The questioned sentence is a quotation from the abstract of an article written in 2003 by Kimball Atwood. Let's review how well it does align to Wikipedia principles.

Due and undue weight

WP:UNDUE: "Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources. Generally, the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all."
The author, Kimball Atwood, is writing in the last paragraph of his article: "This is the first article in a mainstream medical journal that critically summarizes the field of "naturopathic medicine." and that "...if the only articles on CAM that most physicians read are uncritical". This is clear confirmation by the author himself of the minority of his opinion. This undue weight shall be removed by at least quoting its minority.
Or, this undue weight could simply be removed due to his "tiny minority", because it is the first article on this topic published in a reliable source. Other articles usually used as reference for supporting this one do not cover exactly the same topic.
Or, this undue weight could be balanced by a quotation of the opposing opinion, from the same published reliable source, for example “Naturopathic medicine is indeed legitimate, effective, and wanted”..

Article structure

WP:STRUCTURE: "The internal structure of an article may require additional attention, to protect neutrality, and to avoid problems like POV forking and undue weight."
Quoting a minority opinion in the first paragraph is a structural issue. This quotation would be better located in the section dedicated to Evidence basis.

Opinions as facts

WP:YESPOV: "Avoid stating opinions as facts.(...) opinions should not be stated in Wikipedia's voice. Rather, they should be attributed in the text to particular sources"
The author, Kimball Atwood, is a member of an American NGO, The Skeptics Society, devoted to promoting scientific skepticism. As such, he can be seen as at least a promoter or as an advocate of a cause, but not as a neutral observer of the situation. He is having a conflict of interest WP:COI. My opinion is supported by the following statement from a published reliable source: “Atwood is misleading, objectionable, and flagrantly biased". It illustrates the fact that Atwood’s sentence is a controversial assertion.

Nonjudgmental language

WP:YESPOV: "prefer nonjudgmental language. A neutral point of view neither sympathizes with nor disparages its subject".
The word "replete" (plenty of something) is a judgmental language, while a neutral wording would be "contains".

Anglo-American focus

WP:WORLDVIEW: "should seek to improve articles by removing any examples of cultural bias that they encounter, or making readers aware of them".
The author, Kimball Atwood, is writing that his article is "a summary of the current state of naturopathic medicine", based only on documents published by Anglo-American sources. It does not reflect the current state of naturopathic medicine worldwide. It is neglecting the fact that naturopathy is largely used, recognized and integrated in the national health system in German culture countries, such as Germany, Holland and Switzerland. This cultural bias shall be removed.

Proposal

I am proposing to address the above problems by replacing the questioned sentence by:
"In the first article in a mainstream medical journal that critically summarizes the field of naturopathic medicine" Kimball C. Atwood, an American Skeptic, concludes about naturopathy in the Anglo-American world that "naturopathic medicine is replete with pseudoscientific, ineffective, unethical, and possibly dangerous practices"
I am welcoming factual and documented comments and seeking help for improving this article in a more neutral way.

References

References

(Paulmartin357 (talk) 22:06, 24 January 2015 (UTC))

Discussion

The statement is sourced and accurate as is, I have no problem with it. Dbrodbeck (talk) 23:14, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Dbrodbeck, I full agree with you: the statement is sourced and accurately quoted. This is not the problem. I am raising the WP:NPOV issue. Please comment on the factual issues I have raised regarding WP:UNDUE, WP:STRUCTURE, WP:YESPOV, WP:WORLDVIEW. It cannot simply be ignored because the statement is properly sourced and accurately quoted.(Paulmartin357 (talk) 08:40, 25 January 2015 (UTC))

---

Agree, it's well sourced and uncontentious. According to WP:PSCI policy we need to make sure this mainstream take on naturopathy is prominent here, to be neutral. Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 07:24, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Alexbrn, I am not pretending that the statement is right or wrong, but it is factually contentious. This is not my opinion, but a documented fact, according to a published and reliable source and according to a reliable recognized scientist: David L. Katz, associate professor of public health practice at the Yale University School of Medicine. Please comment and respond in more details on the issues that I have raised.(Paulmartin357 (talk) 08:40, 25 January 2015 (UTC))

References

• That text by Katz is a comment on an article, right? Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 17:20, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

• Alexbrn, right, this is a comment. Does it undermine the validity of the opinion expressed? Being a direct critical comment by a well known and reputable scientist confirms the contentious aspect of Atwood's opinion. This comment being published by a reputable source confirms its quality, but not the validity of one against the other. MedGenMed would not publish a dummy or doubtful comment from an unknown and unverified source. My intention is not to enter into never-ending arguments about naturopathy. My personal opinion is that what some people call naturopathy contains some pseudoscientific, ineffective, unethical, and possibly dangerous practices. This is not the question. This is not my debate. My opinion does not count here. I am simply aiming to bring objectivity and neutrality WP:NPOV to the naturopathy article. Thank you for taking the time to answer each one of the various issues raised: WP:UNDUE, WP:STRUCTURE, WP:YESPOV, WP:WORLDVIEW.(Paulmartin357 (talk) 19:53, 25 January 2015 (UTC))

• Not WP:RS, not usable. Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 20:05, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Alex, I think it'll put an end to the conversation faster if you explain why it is not a WP:RS source and therefore not usable. TylerDurden8823 (talk) 20:55, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

I think it's better for editors go get familiar with the WP:PAGs rather than I provide a potted version (which then invites the opportunity to take issue with how I've potted it). It is however also common sense that we don't use weak sources (comments) to undermine stronger ones. Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 21:13, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

I agree, but suit yourself. It's your time. TylerDurden8823 (talk) 22:19, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Alexbrn, I am keen to get familiar and I am doing so. How would you think that individual members of the scientific community would respond in a reliable manner to Atwood article, if not by writing a comment in the same publication. This comment is not to be used for writing an article about naturopathy. This comment is not to be used for undermine a source used for writing an article about naturopathy, but simply to illustrate its contentious aspect. According to WP:RS, the creator of the work, David L. Katz, associate professor of public health practice at the Yale University School of Medicine, is regarded as authoritative in relation to the subject. It is not questionable. Even if you would not agree with my point of view on this matter, it does not prevent you to answer the other issues that I have raised, independently from this comment. (Paulmartin357 (talk) 21:28, 25 January 2015 (UTC))

What I think and what you think is immaterial (even if you base your opinion on interpreting comments, which is WP:OR). Wikipedia shall reflect reliable published sources, and for a WP:FRINGE topic like naturopathy the the bar is lower from normal when finding sources that identify the fringe view. Without new reliable sources, this discussion is pointless. Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 21:40, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Alexbrn, then let's use the only recognized source, Atwood himself, when he is writing that " This is the first article in a mainstream medical journal that critically summarizes the field of naturopathic medicine. " and that " if the only articles on CAM that most physicians read are uncritical ". Isn't it a reliable source confirming the minority and the contentious aspect of his opinion?(Paulmartin357 (talk) 21:52, 25 January 2015 (UTC))

User: erik.o.nelson, I was just wondering what y'all would think about this article which is also from PubMed and a credible journal (from Primary Care) and is not as biased and outdated (2010) of a review as the one being discussed. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2883816 — Preceding undated comment added 22:22, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Failure to understand "neutral" in NPOV

Paulmartin357, as a newbie here, we're cutting you a lot of slack because we know it's not easy to understand all these policies and guidelines (PAG). You make a common mistake, by expecting our content and sources to be "neutral". You write in your edit summary:

• "According to the author of this sentence (Atwood), .... As such, his personnal opinion is not majority nor neutral."

Personal opinions are allowed, non-neutral comments are allowed, and we are required to document controversies, and even minority opinions, especially if they are published in RS. In this case Atwood represents the scientific majority, but since mainstream scientists tend to ignore fringe matters, scientific skeptics like Atwood express their opinions. Those skeptics are often experts in their subject areas. They are scientists, researchers, authors, etc..

There is never any indication in our PAG that sources or content must be neutral. It is editors who must remain neutral in their editing. That's the key to understanding NPOV. Editors are not allowed to misuse sources, or fail to replicate the exact spirit, bias, prejudice, or tone of a source. Censorship is not allowed. If the source is critical, the content will sound critical. If it's biased, so be it. We must remain neutral and reproduce that bias, even when it conflicts with our personal POV.

If we only used "neutral" sources here, no article would contain any opinions, we could not deal with controversies and disagreements, in fact we would have very little content at all! Our job is to document the sum total of human knowledge, as it is documented in reliable sources. That "sum total" includes opinions and very non-neutral sources and content.

It is editors who must remain neutral and not take sides by adding their own commentary. We all have our opinions, and they become obvious on talk pages. That's okay, but when we edit, we must edit neutrally. -- Brangifer (talk) 21:58, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

BullRangifer, thanks for your useful explanation and for your support to a newbie. I fully understand that editors must be neutral and that sources must not be neutral. I fully understand that WP content must be written from a neutral point of view. I fully understand that fringe articles are under high scrutiny. I am not questioning Atwood's quote itself, but the way it is included in WP article. I understand and agree that I should not have written that Atwood's opinion is not neutral. It is my mistake. Sorry for that.

So far, despite valuable efforts by Alexbrn, I have not seen factual arguments for demonstrating that I am 100% wrong with all the issues that I have raised. I agree that one of my source (Katz) could be seen as weak, even if WP:RS does not define explicitly weak sources and comments.

How can you factually support that " Atwood represents the scientific majority, but since mainstream scientists tend to ignore fringe matters "? This statement does not sound like a scientific fact or a scientific observation. With all respect, a minority of loud activists does not make a majority of opinions.

Other issues that I have raised have not yet been answered, e.g. WP:WORLDVIEW.

Let's turn it the other way around. What is objectionable in my proposal, which is mainly quoting (in bold) Atwood himself: " In the first article in a mainstream medical journal that critically summarizes the field of naturopathic medicine, Kimball C. Atwood, an American Skeptic, concludes about naturopathy in the Anglo-American world that naturopathic medicine is replete with pseudoscientific, ineffective, unethical, and possibly dangerous practices "? It does not undermine Atwood's opinion. It is disclosing the exact and factual context in which Atwood is expressing his opinion, which is a scientific way of presenting things.(Paulmartin357 (talk) 22:43, 25 January 2015 (UTC))

"Naturopathic medicine is replete with pseudoscientific, ineffective, unethical, and possibly dangerous practices." - I don't know much about naturopathy, but this sentence is hilariously non-neutral, and reads like someone speaking with an axe to grind. The idea that editors should be neutral but articles should not is also ridonkulous, when the opposite is true by any standard of journalistic integrity. That said, this sentence would easily fixed by saying "According to the scientific community" or "According to such-and-such". It's a strong opinion, and the fact that it's an opinion held by many scientists is interesting and noteworthy but largely irrelevant. A similar statement could be inserted, for example, into the Wikipedia description of religion. ("Religion is replete with unprovable assertions and has often led to unethical and even deadly choices."). A widely-held view by a particular group in a particular profession is fascinating, but it doesn't really have anything to do with WHAT THIS IS, and, as such, strikes as discordant in the first paragraph that would traditionally (and conventionally) be a summary / description of what something is, not what a particular group thinks about it (which would belong in something like a controversy section). Please approach contributions with a little more maturity. 70.68.80.235 (talk) 19:59, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Scientists are experts in the field of medicine and as such their evaluation on the effectiveness of Naturopathy and pseudoscience in general are relevant and therefore valid to include in this encyclopedia. That's more than an opnion scientists offer, that opinion is based on the complete lack of evidence for the effectiveness of Naturopathy. Please don't launch ad hominem attacks on fellow editor by insinuating they are immature, be WP:CIVIL. AadaamS (talk) 06:40, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

NPOV problem fixed

I am trying to fix a problem with the Naturopathy article because of people just reverting edits that were meant for fixing a NPOV problem.--67.80.218.118 (talk) 13:31, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for finally coming here and Talking. NPOV doesn't mean what you think it means. Please actually read WP:NPOV, and in particular the section WP:PSCI. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 13:32, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

WP:PSCI DOES NOT APPLY to naturopathy because all the claims behind naturopathy are mostly scientific facts.-- 67.80.218.118 (talk) 15:08, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I understand that you are asserting that. However, the article presents many reliable sources (as defined in WP:MEDRS) that contradict your assertion. WP content is based on reliable sources (which for health content, are defined in MEDRS), not on assertions of editors. If you don't understand that please read WP:OR and WP:VERIFY, which are WP policy. That is how we do things in Wikipedia. (and btw, making your assertion bold, all-caps, and red-colored doesn't add validity to it.) Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 15:18, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Do you have links to peer-reviewed papers that identify and study our "special vital energy" and its healing properties? --NeilN ^{talk to me} 15:24, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

NeilN and Jytdog, this special vital energy you are talking about is basically your immune system. Now, it's my turn to fix the WP:NPOV problem on this exact article.

Please heed what NeilN and Jytdog are saying, they are correct. Do you have any peer reviewed articles that support your position at all? Dbrodbeck (talk) 15:50, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

And you can tell the state of a person's immune system by looking in their eyes. Very scientific. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 15:53, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

That's Energy (esotericism) which is yet another pseudoscientific concept. AadaamS (talk) 16:16, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

What I mean by "vital energy fields" is immune systems, with immune cells INCLUDED. -- 207.241.247.150 (talk) 18:29, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

i'll take it you are the same person that was editing under the other IP address. see my 2nd message to you above, which you are still not dealing with (including the pointlessness of making your words red or bold). This will be my last response to you, unless you start dealing with the policy and sourcing issues I discussed there, and that others here have also mentioned to you. I will just ignore posts with further unsupported assertions, and recommend that others here do the same.Jytdog (talk) 18:47, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

This NPOV problem is too serious to ignore, so I have decided to fix the problems with this article about millions of treatments that have been proven to be very effective. I will cite naturopathic.org after the semi-protection goes away because that will make it possible for a neutral point of view. Also, naturopathy is NOT pseudoscience. So revert your edit that reverted my edit, and remove this article from the Pseudoscience template and the Pseudoscience category on this wiki so misleading claims made by drug companies won't affect Wikipedia. --207.241.247.150 (talk) 20:10, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Please stop changing the colours of your posts, it is hard to read. Oh and a source, an actual WP:MEDRS source, got one? Dbrodbeck (talk) 20:13, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

That would be the website I JUST POSTED!!!!! --207.241.247.150 (talk) 20:15, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Please actually read WP:MEDRS. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 20:16, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I encourage the IP editor to also read WP:CONSENSUS. The statements we have about pseudoscience, for example, are well sourced. Dbrodbeck (talk) 20:47, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

These guys are not letting us reach a consensus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.80.218.118 (talk) 22:03, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Consensus is not, "Do what I say, I don't need proper sources". Have you read WP:MEDRS yet? --NeilN ^{talk to me} 22:09, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Consensus is reached, through reasoned discussion that is based on policies and guidelines. We have told you what the relevant policies and guidelines are, and you are not dealing with them. Again please come back when you have read them and have arguments based on them. This place is not a wild west. Jytdog (talk) 22:10, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I have read these and your arguments are not credible towards anybody who has read these rules. --67.80.218.118 (talk) 22:13, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

'These guys are not letting us' so these two IPs are different people? OK..... Actually IP editor(s?) have you ever considered the off chance that maybe when everyone else who is an experienced editor is telling you something, perhaps, just maybe, you are wrong? Dbrodbeck (talk) 22:19, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

IP, consensus is not a vote. Logging in from your school to pretend to be another person is not going to help change this article's content. Recruiting your friends won't help either. I know our policies are long and complicated, and no one is expecting you to read every word of them at once, but you need to listen to the experienced editors here who are trying to explain our policies to you. Some of us have been editing wikipedia for many years. There is only one thing that will cause the article to change: sources from respected medical journals. If you can find those, then by all means, present them.   — Jess· Δ♥ 22:33, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Naturopathy works.--67.80.218.118 (talk) 22:51, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Please, also read WP:NOTAFORUM. Dbrodbeck (talk) 23:04, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I now have an account. --Young Naturopath 01 (talk to me here) 23:24, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

^{• ↑2 indents added above 220 of Borg 03:59, 13 March 2015 (UTC)}

Our new friend is back with a username. YN01, welcome, again. Same things we have said above, apply. Please read WP:OR, WP:VERIFY, and WP:MEDRS and support future claims with reliable sources per MEDRS. I will ignore posts that do not, and suggest others do the same. Thanks all. Jytdog (talk) 01:21, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

^{• ↑3 indents added above 220 of Borg 03:59, 13 March 2015 (UTC)}

@Young Naturopath 01:Welcome to the 'club' kid Editor. (Sorry, NPOV!) . (Note added indents as stated above!) 220 of ^Borg 03:59, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Try reading the section below.

Love,

Young Naturopath 01 (talk) 14:58, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

In my opinion there is a major issue here with NPOV. The article used for almost the entire introduction set out specifically to list the problems with naturopathy, which should rightly belong in a criticism section, although the criticism section seems to be a lot of the page. There is no mention in the introduction that naturopathy is also replete with scientific, effective, ethical, and safe practices. There seems to be a lot of cherry picking going on here. I can provide a large number of references of solid scientific evidence for naturopathic practice,and all you have to do is click one of the modality links to find one, but I see none of them being used here so far, why? Because you couldn't find them?, or because you didn't look? Another thing I take issue with in some of these articles is the moving of the goalposts. Once something previously classed as "alternative medicine" by mainstream medicine is found to have sufficient scientific proof, it is quickly classed as mainstream medicine, meaning that alternative medicine, by their definition cannot include science. Never mind the fact that thousands of years of reliable practice is its own science. Repeatable results and all that. And nevermind that most GP's know very little about even scientifically accepted herbal remedies. Anyway, I digress. The same article has a quote from webmd, it's own publisher. "A licensed naturopathic physician (ND) attends a 4-year, graduate-level naturopathic medical school and is educated in the same basic sciences as a medical doctor (MD)." and then follows it up by saying "The WebMD treatise also advises, "Naturopathy should not replace conventional methods of treatment for certain conditions,"[49] but how is the patient to know? The assumption is that naturopaths will act responsibly, but they have neither the medical training nor the requisite scientific skepticism to do so." This is from page 7. Is it just me, or is there a contradiction here. And I'm only on the first reference so far. I shudder to think what I'll find in the other 87. Sure a lot of them might be peer reviewed, but anything can potentially be guilty of cherry picking or misattribution when you view it with some scientific scepticism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gudzwabofer (talk • contribs) 17:48, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Good job, Gudzwabofer! You really proved the MD-promotion users wrong! --Young Naturopath 01 (talk) 18:01, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Phew! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Young Naturopath 01 (talk • contribs) 18:13, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Naturopathic Medicine Training

Dear health care colleagues contributing to this page,

I am a student at Bastyr University, completing my third year of my naturopathic medical training. After reviewing this article, I feel that certain assertions regarding naturopathic medicine do not clearly portray the reality for readers. At an accredited school like Bastyr, students undergo rigorous training in all of the biomedical sciences required for medical students. In fact, Bastyr students take equal or more hours of the biomedical sciences as medical students at the University of Washington School of Medicine. My anatomy teacher, Dr. Catrin Pittack previously taught anatomy, embryology, neuroanatomy, histology, and living anatomy at the University of Washington School of Medicine before coming to Bastyr. At National College of Medicine in Portland, immunology and research is taught by Dr. Heather Zwickey, who formerly taught these subjects at Yale Medical School. The faculty for biomedical sciences and clinical coursework at these two leading schools is high quality.

Our training in the sciences is highly challenging in the first year, requiring countless hours of study to move successfully through the program. In the second year we study all the pathology, immunology, and microbiology content required for traditional medical students, along with all of the physical exams, laboratory skills, pharmacology training, and diagnostic coursework required of medical students. Along with this coursework, students receive training in botanical medicine, nutrition, hydrotherapy, physical medicine, pharmacology, counseling, and, yes, homeopathy.

I understand the concerns around homeopathy, but this is only a small part of our training, and is not a modality every student graduating from naturopathic medical student will use. Other naturopathic treatments have a solidly growing evidence base, such as nutrition, botanical medicine, lifestyle management, physical medicine, and mind-body medicine (including counseling and guided relaxation). The research body is building, let's collaborate as a health care community to design great research projects that look at CAM treatments. As a community, many naturopathic doctors hope to expand our evidence base, and both Bastyr and NCNM are actively conducting quality research projects. I understand that the vaccine topic is controversial, but it is incorrect to state that Naturopathic doctor's oppose vaccination. In fact, the opposite is true today. Most ND's recommend most or all of the CDC required vaccinations, and in my class on family medicine the instructor said, "Vaccines are naturopathic," because they are preventative. Further, the Bastyr Center for Natural Health does not recommend against flu vaccination for healthy individuals as stated in the article. For this topic, this article is out of date.

As many patients continue to seek out NDs let's build the growing evidence base by conducting solid research that investigates the botanical medicines, nutritional and lifestyle therapies, physical medicine, and mind-body modalities most commonly used by NDs. As a community, we encourage evidence based medicine and support well designed studies of CAM therapies. Just a quick search on Google Scholar for any of these modalities shows how much peer-reviewed research already exists. As ND's, we are trained as complementary practitioners to work with medical doctors and other health-care professionals. There are places where we shine, and places where medical doctors shine. As family practice doctors continue to decline in most areas, NDs are situated to fill this much needed gap in medicine. Let's work together! I encourage you to take a closer look at the current state of our training and the evidence base. It is true that we are not required to undergo a residency, though during our training we complete at least 120 hours of preceptorship with practicing doctors. Many students do apply for residency after graduation, but the reality is that there are not enough residency opportunities. This is a situation that can and should be changed; if family practice doctors and other health care facilities were willing to offer residencies to NDs this is one way to increase opportunities.

Lastly, please understand that the philosophy of vitalism need not be so controversial. This philosophy simple asserts that all living things are animated by a life force and that when our life force is disturbed, the body tends to move towards health. A simple example is when we get a cut. Over time, the body heals the injury. This is all that is meant by vitalism. In biomedical language, we can understand vitalism as immunology. As NDs, we are mainly working to support the body's immune system, following the science of immunology and research for different therapies. In this way, naturopathic medicine does differ from allopathic medicine, but this difference does not need to divide us, it can serve as the foundation for a positive collaborative relationship.

Thank you for considering these statements. My hope is that NDs and other CAM practitioners and can work with other medical professionals to better serve patients. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.16.12.246 (talk) 04:19, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

This page is to help us improve the article by discussion. Do you have any suggestions for us? Your wall of text above doesn't really help. -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 10:25, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Education of Naturopathic Doctors at Accredited College of Naturopathic Medicine

Doctor of Naturopathic Medicine Education

There are five accredited schools of naturopathic medicine in the United States: Bastyr University, National College of Natural Medicine (NCNM), Southwest College of Natural Medicine (SCNM), National University of Health Sciences, and University of Bridgeport College of Naturopathic Medicine. At an accredited school, students undergo rigorous training in the same four year format of medical schools, completing all of the biomedical sciences required for any medical student (CNME, 2014, p. 44-45). The anatomy component includes a gross anatomy lab (CNME, 2014, p. 44). Bastyr University is named by the Princeton Review as one of the 168 best medical schools in the country (Princeton Review, 2005). At Bastyr University, students complete equivalent hours of biomedical sciences as medical students at the University of Washington School of Medicine (AANMC, 2015; Bastyr University, 2015; University of Washington, 2015). On the American Association of Naturopathic Physicians website, there is a summary chart comparing the curriculum of Bastyr University and University of Washington School of Medicine, found here: http://aanmc.org/schools/comparing_nd_md_curricula/

In the second year, naturopathic medicine students study all the pathology, immunology, and microbiology content required for traditional medical students, along with all of the physical exams, laboratory skills, pharmacology training, and diagnostic coursework (CNME, 2014). Along with this coursework, students receive additional training in nutrition, botanical medicine, hydrotherapy, environmental medicine, physical medicine, pharmacology, homeopathy, and counseling (CNME, 2014). Although homeopathy may be considered pseudoscientific, all of the other complementary modalities taught to naturopathic medical students have a solidly growing evidence base, and many allopathic medical schools are now designing alternative programs that teach these same modalities (University of Arizona, 2015; Duke Integrative Medicine, 2015).

Clinical training at the accredited colleges of naturopathic medicine begins in year three. The majority of clinical shifts focus on general medicine, along with specialized shifts in physical medicine, nutrition, lifestyle counseling, environmental medicine, immune wellness, minor office procedures, homeopathy, integrative pain management, diabetes and cardiovascular disease (CNME, 2014). Over the course of clinical training in years 3 and 4, students average 600 patient contacts made during a minimum of 1,200 clinical training hours (CNME, 2014, p. 46). Although there is no residency requirement, accredited naturopathic colleges have implemented a preceptorship program. To meet graduation requirements, students must complete an additional 132 hours of preceptorship by shadowing health care professionals in their practice (CNME, 2014, p. 46-47). Many students do apply for residency after graduation, but the reality is that there are not enough residency opportunities for NDs. This is a situation that can and should be changed; if family practice doctors and other health care facilities were willing to offer residencies to NDs this is one way to increase opportunities.

Citations

American Association of Naturopathic Physicians. 2015. http://www.naturopathic.org/education

Association of Accredited Naturopathic Medical Colleges (AANMC), 2015. Comparing ND and MD Curricula. http://aanmc.org/schools/comparing_nd_md_curricula/

Bastyr University. 2015. Curriculum for Doctor of Naturopathic Medicine. http://www.bastyr.edu/academics/areas-study/study-naturopathic-medicine/naturopathic-doctor-degree-program#Curriculum

Council on Naturopathic Medical Education (CNME), 2014. Handbook of Accreditation for Naturopathic Medical Programs.

Duke Integrate Medicine, 2015. http://www.dukeintegrativemedicine.org/professional-training/professional-training-and-certificate-programs

University of Arizona, 2015. Arizona Center for Integrative Medicine. http://integrativemedicine.arizona.edu/education/fellowship/

University of Washington Medicine. 2015. Basic Science Curriculum. http://www.uwmedicine.org/education/md-program/current-students/curriculum/basic-sciences

Are there secondary sources covering this? We'd need mainstream ones. Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 17:36, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Not an ideal source, but it is a secondary source and does verify significant aspects of what is said above: http://www.amsa.org/AMSA/Homepage/About/Committees/ND_AB.aspx TylerDurden8823 (talk) 18:38, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Mainstream Secondary Sources for Prior Post

Dear Alebrn,

Finding secondary mainstream sources on the specifics is a challenge, because secondary sources do not go into the level of detail as the accredited schools for the curricula. So far, this is what I have:

Council on Naturopathic Medical Education. 2014. Handbook of Accreditation for Naturopathic Medical Programs. This is the primary source. CNME is an independent non-profit accreditation oversight group that sets the requirements for naturopathic medical program accreditation. My submission is a brief summary of some of the main requirements for accreditation. For more detail and as a reference for the information I submitted, please refer to CNME's handbook here, which covers all the requirements of basic sciences training as well as clinical training: http://www.cnme.org/resources/2014_cnme_handbook_of_accreditation.pdf. I will update the original submission with specific page references to this document.

CNME is the accreditation information used by states to assess schools. Here is the State of Oregon's link to the CNME website: http://www.oregon.gov/obnm/pages/fiveshools.aspx

Other sources:

Princeton Review, 2005. Best 162 Medical Schools. Random House Information Group. See section on Bastyr University (sorry no online version)

On the University of Washington's youth outreach web page, they link to AANMC (same source I used) to provide information to undergraduates about becoming a naturopathic physician. This link can be found here: http://www.uwmedicine.org/education/md-program/admissions/explore-healthcare.

The University of Washington School of Medicine also has links to Bastyr University on this page, and maintains a respectful perspective towards both naturopathic medicine and acupuncture. UW medicine provides direct links from their website to the information I cited for my article, because the school finds the information credible and accurate. I will obtain a letter from the University of Washington School of Medicine stating this to help this process.

Here is a link to Oregon Health Sciences University's page on integrative medicine: http://www.ohsu.edu/xd/about/news_events/news/2005/03-08-ohsu-integrative-medicin.cfm. OHSU hires NDs as part of their staff. Although they do not go into the details of the program in a way I can cite, they validate the training I described in the article. I will also write OHSU for a letter that validates the information in the article I submitted.

Here is a link to Seattle Cancer Care Alliance's page on the Naturopathic Doctors they hire: http://www.seattlecancerwellness.com/naturopathic_oncologists.html I am writing Seattle Cancer Care Alliance for validation of the facts in the article I submitted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Solomonmorris (talk • contribs) 19:24, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Naturopathy in Australia

This page was just brought to my attention by a fellow student, and wow, what a lack of proper research methods by those who purport to be upholding the scientific method.

I'm in Australia studying the second year of a Bachelor of Health Science (Naturopathy). The level of education is in some cases above what is required for practice and contains a large practical component. The 1977 review is grossly outdated, I will endeavour to find more recent ones. It is true that anyone can still call themselves a naturopath, something which occurs in some other natural health professions, although it is likely that the more stringent regulatory requirements recently placed on chinese medicine will soon be applied to other fields. Health insurance companies only recognise accredited naturopaths who have completed a majority of their coursework on campus.

Basically this means that aside from the first sentence, the whole Australian section will need be replaced (I'm also planning to throw my weight behind a few of the other debates going on in this page). Gudzwabofer (talk) 02:59, 20 March 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gudzwabofer (talk • contribs) 02:43, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

welcome to WP. Before you start "throwing your weight" around, please make sure you understand WIkipedia's policies and guidelines - there are "rules" here for content and for behavior. Editing Wikipedia is a privilege, not a right, and if violate WP's policies and guidelines, you will lose your editing privileges (in other words, you will get topic banned or site banned). Passion can be a good thing, but learn to walk before you "enter into battle". Please ask plenty of questions and really listen to the answers. Jytdog (talk) 02:54, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, that does seem like it could mean like a giant troll who hurls boulders. I mean my intellectual weight. There's a lot of sources out there, many of them peer reviewed in widely respected journals, which should hopefully bring more balance to the article. While Lust coined the name, many of his methods are questioned or dismissed by present day naturopaths, but this disagreement isn't something that's foreign to other healthcare fields. Gudzwabofer (talk) 03:11, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Page Structure

Ok looking at the possibility of expanding this page, I think there's structural things which may need to happen:

International Focus;

Most sections describing naturopathy, and even many of the criticisms, are based on north american naturopathic practice. As education, practice, and regulation can vary quite considerably from country to country, I'm recommending that at the very least the "Practitioners" section, which could include education and professional bodies, be laid out in a similar manner to the regulation section. As for methods, there are some things I know Naturopaths in Australia either can't do legally, such as Acupuncture or Chinese medicine, which are now both regulated, or aren't generally trained to do. I think the only greatly controversial thing in BHsc(Nat) is iridology, which just takes up one unit. The other thing I've noticed on some pages is the "reception" listed by country, and I'm also wondering where private health rebates fit in. Is that a regulation issue?

Criticisms and Controversies

I think this could well be made into a section on its own, the criticisms particular to north american naturopathic practice already have enough to fill one subheading, as does cancer, vaccines, safety of treatments, the claims of lack of scientific basis, the issues surrounding unlicensed or unqualified practitioners (a big one in Australia). I don't think much of this belongs in other sections which should be a neutral description of the history and modality, especially when many of the criticisms don't apply to all naturopaths. Most of these issues should also have links to more in depth pages surrounding those issues. I've added a link for vaccines, and I know there are well written pages for others. 'Alternative Cancer Treatments' and 'List of herbs with known adverse effects', are two pages which seem quite comprehensive, with a fair degree of scientific rigour.

Diagnosis

I'm wondering if this should have a section of it's own or whether it should be regionalised. It could come partly under criticisms and controversies, and it could also come under a larger heading of the relationships between naturopaths and other medical professionals. In my course we are actively discouraged from making diagnoses, knowing when to refer to a gp or specialist can be a matter of life and death at times, and can require insistence, especially as many natural health clients are somewhat cautious of their local gp. This is also the other side the correlation surrounding low vaccination rates in natural health clients, and other untreated illnesses, although I'm not sure where it should fit in.

Reception

I've noticed this on other natural health pages, and I'm wondering if this should have a separate section, in terms of reception and utilisation by the public, and acceptance, or lack thereof, by governments and medical authorities. This is another thing which makes me wonder whether it would be better to split most of the article into countries and contain "education", "practitioners", "methods", "regulation", and "reception" under each of those. Leaving the "introduction", "history", "criticisms/controversies" as the only standalone sections.

Anyway, some of these points sort of spilled into each other, so I hope it's easy enough to see what I'm getting at. I'm already collecting a considerable amount of solid references for Australian Naturopathy, and a few for Europe. I'm wondering do I post links here in talk so they can be discussed before use in the main page?Gudzwabofer (talk) 16:27, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi Gudzwabofer. Generally, we discourage separating out criticism into a separate section (see WP:CSECTION), and instead encourage incorporating it into its own article. In this case, your recommendation to remove criticism, scientific basis, efficacy, etc, from most of the article and place it all within individual sections is contrary to that practice. Instead of encouraging a "neutral description" of the topic, it would encourage a description of the topic that is biased towards naturopathic claims.   — Jess· Δ♥ 17:24, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

• Looking at the Ozzie course outlines at Endeavour, it would seem to indicate that such miracles as homeopathy, flower essence therapy and acupuncture therapy are still being treated as serious subjects of study there. From their FAQ, naturopaths "... stimulate the body’s innate self-healing ability through therapies such as homeopathy and hydrotherapy, or through physical or creative activities that stimulate the vital force." (my link) It seems clear that they are trying to apply the same gloss of professional credentialling as their North American counterparts. One would hope that a student who can afford A$72,000 for a bac might wish to get something of real value in exchange.

• The "Diagnosis" bit comes down to this: what extent of scientific education qualifies someone to be trustworthy as a primary care diagnostician? If it takes doctorate-level education in an M.D. program, why would a bac be enough in a naturopathy program? Is it not still necessary to understand what's going on in the body?

LeadSongDog come howl! 17:44, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Quick note - strategy

not discussing article content Jytdog (talk) 18:21, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
In general it is a bad idea to post big laundry lists of Things That Need Changing, as anything more than a heads up of the direction in which you would like to move the article. Every time (literally, every time) I have seen such discussions, they end up being completely unproductive, with lots of Big Sweeping Statements made and posturing Shots Fired Over the Bow, etc blah blah. Best thing to do is start making bite-sized changes to the body of the article (NPOV and well-sourced), taking time to let each one sink in, and being ready to discuss each one per WP:BRD. yep. Jytdog (talk) 18:02, 20 March 2015 (UTC) I'm advocating a neutral position. At present the article is biased against naturopathy. If you need references that restore the balance I can find plenty. I'm quite willing to have multiple sides of every single sentence in this article. My suggestions are more about better organising the article, especially with the much needed expansion. Homeopathy is a separate profession in Australia, as is Accupuncture, which is now government regulated and can only be practiced by acupuncturists. There is also evidence for efficacy of acupuncture in some conditions, particularly those involving the nervous system, it's hardly a miracle. I'd suggest taking your issues with those to the relevant wikipedia pages. Bach flower remedies are also one unit thing, and I don't pretend to know much about them. You'll find that most of the course is composed of anatomy and physiology, nutrition, and herbal medicine, all things which have a strong scientific basis. But this seems to be given little weight in the wikipedia page. As to the issue of diagnosis. You're asking a rhetorical question I already agreed with. I was saying it's such an important issue that it probably deserves its own section. As to the laundry list, well what can I do. Following the previous debate on NPOV it looks like the sceptics have already made up their minds, hardly very sceptical.Gudzwabofer (talk) 18:06, 20 March 2015 (UTC) you can write what you want, but i will just say this one more time. In my view, Big Sweeping Statements are a Big Fucking Waste of Time. They just become opportunities for posturing and personal attacks. And you could also say that they violate the WP:TPG - no one gives a flying fuck about anybody's opinions about Wikipedia or naturopathy. This page is for discussing article content and is WP:NOTFORUM. I recommend you propose or make bite size, concrete changes to the article, and be ready to discuss each of them, in a calm way, based on PAG. Jytdog (talk) 18:19, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

further reading

offtopic discussion about a "further reading" entry Jytdog (talk) 18:49, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
wow, i can't believe i have to do this, but then i guess it's wikipedia not academia "naturopathy is a hodge-podge of mostly unscientific treatment modalities" naturopathy, at least in australia (maybe another reason for splitting the whole page into countries) is mostly composed of nutrition and herbal medicine, that's if you take mostly to mean at least 80%. need references, i'll get them "Naturopaths also really, really don’t like it when they encounter criticism that their “discipline” is not science-based" I'm fine with it, because i can show you the science for quite a lot of it, just show me where i can stick it (in the page) on the allergy thing - look at some recent scientific journal articles on the relationship between intestinal flora and allergies, especially the 80% success rate in treating peanut allergies using a combination of a probiotic and small amounts of nut protein, also on chronic hayfever, garlic and vitamin c worked a hell of a lot better for me than antihistamines, not really in direct contradiction to what he said, but naturopathy has been on about bowel health for a long time, and now we have increasingly more science to back it up most of the rest of it is homeopathy, which is easy points, as it one of the natural therapies which are least supported by scientific evidence. and the main problem is that faulting a small part of naturopathy isn't the same as faulting most of it. little mention of nutrition or herbal medicine. why? because for the most part they workGudzwabofer (talk) 18:29, 20 March 2015 (UTC) TLBR, and even with all those words, i have no idea what content you are talking about. What are you talking about? Jytdog (talk) 18:34, 20 March 2015 (UTC) the further reading link, I deleted it, Mann jess reinstated it and told me to further justify my reasons in talk, i've got a feeling it's going to take me a week to get rid of every single biased reference in this pageGudzwabofer (talk) 18:40, 20 March 2015 (UTC) oh i see. so what you wrote, is a bunch of your personal opinions about why the content of that source is not good. I see. But that is not how we analyze sources and is not valid discussion within WP. It was a complete waste of your time to write, and mine to read and try to understand. (Like I said, learn to walk before you start doing battle.) Jytdog (talk) 18:49, 20 March 2015 (UTC) look, the main thing i'm advicating is fair representation, both regionally and in general. the general course guidelines for natural therapy course recognition in australia, as set by one of the major professional associations: http://www.australiannaturaltherapistsassociation.com.au/courses/assessment_guidelines.php Course Module/Category Guidelines: Biomedical Sciences 25 – 35% of course Including anatomy & physiology, pathology, pharmacology, toxicology, microbiology chemistry, biology biochemistry, phytochemistry, symptomatology and diagnosis Modality specific 30 – 45% of course Including philosophy, relevant modality including diagnostic framework Clinical Practicum 25% - 35% of course Specific to the modality(s) covered, can include, but is not limited to observation, case taking, tutorials, practice management, referral procedures, clinical record keeping, etc – evidence would need to be collected such as policy of student clinic and clinic handbook Counselling/Interpersonal skills, Ethics, Research, Professional issues 5 – 10% of course Includes Ethics and jurisprudence, research assessment/methodology, integration of the modality into the Australian healthcare system, current global climate of health care, critical thinking and clinical judgement, communication with other healthcare professionals, professional requirements, financial record keeping, adverse event reporting, notifiable and transmittable diseases. for naturopathy the majority of that modality is nutrition and herbal medicine based, just check the endeavour link above. as for efficacy of herbal remedies, try natural standard: https://naturalmedicines.therapeuticresearch.com/ all i need to do is get above 50% of scientifically supported to prove that naturopathy is not mostly unscientific, also i already showed that the article that forms most of the introduction of the page is self contradictory, but i've had no response. if there's no internal logic how can it be a good reference.Gudzwabofer (talk) 19:03, 20 March 2015 (UTC) Ok, are you proposing a specific change to the article? and if so, please present it in the form of "I'd like to change X to Y" with a list of supporting sources. Thanks. --McSly (talk) 19:14, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Use of Jagtenberg source

I also have an issue with this:

Naturopaths aim to prevent illness through stress reduction and changes to diet and lifestyle, often rejecting the methods of evidence based medicine.

References

I checked both sources. The one which list concerns with EBM is a small focus group, which seems to be assembled for that specific purpose, the other source actually discusses how present day naturopathy is science based.Gudzwabofer (talk) 19:25, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

It sounds like you are objecting to the sources? Please confirm. If so, upon what policy or guideline is your objection based? Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 19:29, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Note. I amended the quotation to above to include the sources, to make discussion easier. Jytdog (talk) 19:31, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm tired, so I'll have to get back to you after I have a chance to pore over the lingo tomorrow. All I know for now is that if I handed in that sentence with those references at any reputable tertiary institution I'd get an F.Gudzwabofer (talk) 19:37, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Ok, here goes. So the statement "naturopaths...often rejecting the methods of evidence based medicine."

The Jagtenberg reference, for which there's a free link here - http://epubs.scu.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1092&context=hahs_pubs is a small focus group discussion about the concerns the members had with EBM. The main issue raised seems to be the weight given to the RCT, which is itself only part of EBM, rather than a complete rejection of the idea of EBM, anyway, leaving aside from the further broader debate my last sentence may give rise to, the second reference, Pizzorno, mentions EBM and medical science in the context of their acceptance by naturopaths, and their place in naturopathic education. I'm having trouble finding the policy related to misrepresentation of sources, although there is WP:CHERRYPICKING, discussion of a well known no no in the academic world, but I believe it at least violates WP:NPOV, specifically WP:BALASPS WP:UNDUE WP:SUBSTANTIATE WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV being that of the available sources, the contributor has only given weight to the idea that naturopaths often reject the methods of EBM, when the references describe a lot of acceptance of EBM and a few misgivings about certain aspects.Gudzwabofer (talk) 02:17, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Traditional naturopathic practitioners surveyed in Australia perceive evidence based medicine to be an ideologic assault on their beliefs in vitalistic and holistic principles.[27]

This is a similar sweeping statement based on limited sample size from the small Jagtenberg focus group, for, which I might add participants were selected who were "tradition-sensitive naturopathic practitioners" comprised of "The contributing authors of this paper and other colleagues constituted themselves as a small focus group." In other words, it's more resembles a few close friends having a chat than a statistically significant scientific study, which the authors advise it isn't. If there is a broader survey contained in this paper, then I apologise in advance for missing it.Gudzwabofer (talk) 05:50, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Comments on recent extensive edits

I just reverted a few changes out of concern that they misrepresented our sourcing (at least with respect to due weight). Of most concern is this bit: Among its findings was that "A review of 77 systematic reviews published between 2001 and 2003 suggested that there is now evidence of the benefits of naturopathy and WHM [western herbal medicine] for almost every body system and all major illnesses.... This is directly contrary to a slew of sources we're using in the article, which are largely reflective of the scientific consensus. We can't place that much weight on the claims of naturopathy when they so strongly conflict with the scientific consensus.   — Jess· Δ♥ 06:01, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

that is scientific consensus, it's a large systematic review commissioned by a government body, the reason it's in contradiction with the rest of the article is that the rest of the article has numerous violations of NPOV. if anything the 1977 reference should be reviewed as it's outdated. I'm considering referring this whole page to a higher power for review.Gudzwabofer (talk) 06:04, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

The only justification for removal you can have is that they misrepresent their own sources, or that the sources themselves are flawed. On this can I just delete everything I believe is guilty of the same thing? Submitting this whole page for review.Gudzwabofer (talk) 06:09, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

What you cited is not a systematic review, no. It references "a review" which it doesn't cite, supposedly covering 2001-2003. We have newer sources than that which actually pass WP:MEDRS. There's absolutely no way we can say there's scientific evidence naturopathy has those kind of sweeping benefits without extremely strong sourcing, and this isn't it.   — Jess· Δ♥ 06:12, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Also, please indent your posts. You're welcome to see WP:RSN to discuss the reliability of that source, if you'd like. There are no "higher powers" here.   — Jess· Δ♥ 06:14, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm emailing the volunteer response team. You didn't even read the paper, systematic reviews were among its methods. It's another example of the persistent militant bias on this page. I'm not allowed to remove one terrible source or ill referenced statement, but you can remove something that's balanced and well attributed? It's a joke. Take a moment to consider what pseudoscience really is.Gudzwabofer (talk) 06:23, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

I've also posted it where you suggested, at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Naturopathy. All good so far.Gudzwabofer (talk) 09:20, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Just to expand on my revert of this removal... the initial justification was that it was to be replaced by another source which had been reverted. If so, we should wait for the new source to be discussed and added, not remove well sourced content in the meantime. The more recent justification was that "It doesn't reflect current regulation". However, it is properly contextualized as "In 1977", so it need not reflect current regulation. It is also the only source we currently have on the topic, AFAIK, so we would need another one to add additional details (like what is current practice). In any case, Gudzwabofer, I have followed the conversation taking place on your talk page, and it really seems like you should be concentrating on other endeavors at the moment. I'm not opposed to discussing this; why don't we come back and resume the conversation when you have your other responsibilities in order. Good luck!   — Jess· Δ♥ 17:48, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

sources

Let's talk sources, shall we?

I just reviewed the sources used in the article and here is what I found. I went ahead and took out a couple that were blatantly bad already that are not listed here...

used and OK per MEDRS

• "Naturopathic Medicine". American Cancer Society. January 16, 2013. Retrieved March 21, 2015.

used and not OK for health content per MEDRS, in my view

• Barrett, Stephen; Raso, Jack (1993). Mystical Diets: Paranormal, Spiritual, and Occult Nutrition Practices. Buffalo, New York: Prometheus Books. ISBN 0879757612. - WAY too old per WP:MEDDATE
• Herbert, Victor; Barrett, Stephen (1994). The Vitamin Pushers: How the "Health Food" Industry is Selling America a Bill of Goods. Buffalo, NY: Prometheus Books. ISBN 9780879759094. - WAY too old per WP:MEDDATE
• Pizzorno, Joseph E. (1999). "Naturopathy: Practice Issues". In Carolyn C.; Gordon, Rena J. (eds.). Encyclopedia of Complementary Health Practice. Springer Publishing. pp. 57–59. ISBN 9780826117229. {{cite book}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help); External link in |chapterurl= (help); Unknown parameter |chapterurl= ignored (|chapter-url= suggested) (help) - WAY too old per WP:MEDDATE
• Jarvis, William T. (January 30, 2001) [copyright 1997]. "NCAHF Fact Sheet on Naturopathy". National Council Against Health Fraud. Retrieved 2009-04-17. - WAY too old per WP:MEDDATE
• Atwood, Kimball C., IV (2003). "Naturopathy: A critical appraisal". Medscape General Medicine. 5 (4): 39. PMID 14745386.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) -- too old per WP:MEDDATE
• Atwood IV, Kimball. C. (March 26, 2004). "Naturopathy, pseudoscience, and medicine: Myths and fallacies vs truth". Medscape General Medicine. 6 (1): 33. PMC 1140750. PMID 15208545. -- too old per WP:MEDDATE
• Boughton, Barbara; Frey, Rebecca J. (2005). "Naturopathic Medicine". Gale Encyclopedia of Alternative Medicine (Online ed.). Gale. -- too old per WP:MEDDATE
• Jagtenberg, Tom; Evans, Sue; Grant, Airdre; Howden, Ian; et al. (April 2006). "Evidence-based medicine and naturopathy". Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine. 12 (3): 323–328. doi:10.1089/acm.2006.12.323. PMID 16646733. {{cite journal}}: Explicit use of et al. in: |author= (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) -- too old per WP:MEDDATE

hm...

• Barrett, Stephen (November 26, 2013). "A close look at naturopathy". QuackWatch. Retrieved 2015-03-21.
• Beyerstein, Barry L.; Downie, Susan (May 12, 2004). "Naturopathy: A Critical Analysis". NaturoWatch. QuackWatch. Retrieved 2009-03-21.
• Carroll, Robert T. (March 7 2015). "Naturopathy". The Skeptic's Dictionary. Retrieved 2015-03-21. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

and hmmm, with respect to WP:INDY

• "Handbook of Accreditation for Naturopathic Medicine Programs" (PDF). Council on Naturopathic Medical Education. 2007. Retrieved 2010-11-20.
• Sarris, Jerome; Wardle, Jon (2010). Clinical Naturopathy: An evidence-based guide to practice. Sydney: Churchill Livingstone / Elsevier Health Sciences. pp. 32–36. ISBN 9780729579261. Retrieved 2013-09-01.

I think that Gudzwabofer had a point, about the sourcing being pretty shitty in this article.

I did a bit of searching and found the following that are not used...

not used

• Fleming SA, Gutknecht NC. Naturopathy and the primary care practice. Prim Care. 2010 Mar;37(1):119-36. doi: 10.1016/j.pop.2009.09.002. Review. PMID 20189002 PMC 2883816
• Snyder J, Brown P. Complementary and alternative medicine in children: an analysis of the recent literature. Curr Opin Pediatr. 2012 Aug;24(4):539-46. doi: 10.1097/MOP.0b013e328355a214. Review. PMID 22732637
• Esposito S, Principi N, Cornaglia G; ESCMID Vaccine Study Group (EVASG). * Barriers to the vaccination of children and adolescents and possible solutions. Clin Microbiol Infect. 2014 May;20 Suppl 5:25-31. doi: 10.1111/1469-0691.12447. Epub 2014 Jan 24. Review. PMID 24354949 (note: doesn't talk about naturopathy per se, but says "Some parents believe that the immunity evoked by vaccines is less effective than that due to natural disease, and they prefer to face the risks of illness rather than those of immunization. This was clearly shown by Prislin et al, who found that, together with safety concerns, beliefs in natural immunity were the main contributors to parents' negative attitudes to vaccinations"

I think the article needs some updating... I hope folks won't oppose updating things. Jytdog (talk) 21:59, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Oh, yes, the article certainly needs updating, primarily with respect to sourcing. I've been doing that every now and then, but my time for source hunting is fairly limited. Have at it. If anyone has a complaint, I'm sure they'll let you know :p Thanks for the summary above!   — Jess· Δ♥ 23:02, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Nice work. I'll see what I can dig up in the next couple of weeks and I'll post a reading lost of sources for consideration. Particularly I'll have a new Australian Government Report which comes out on April 1, and I'll see what I can find on region specific practice and regulation. I'll also see if any decent systematic reviews exist, naturopathy as a whole could be difficult, but I should be able to find something on each of the different methods. Some might exist on linked pages as well. Gudzwabofer (talk) 05:08, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

is acupuncture naturopathy?

real question. doesn't seem like it is to me, based on sources i see. doesn't fit with the ideology of naturopathy as i understand it, as sticking needles in people isn't "natural". there may be an overlap in people who like, use, or do both, but I don't think they are the same. if nobody has a source saying that acupuncture is within naturopathy, i intend to remove that... Jytdog (talk) 22:01, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm absolutely certain that acupuncture falls within the scope of naturopathy (at least for some practitioners). However, I don't have a source on hand. If I get some time to track one down, I'll let you know. Thanks.   — Jess· Δ♥ 23:03, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

thanks! i may remove it in the meantime. none of the sources i have checked today say that, so far. we can always restore it, if a source is found. Jytdog (talk) 23:41, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Depends on jurastiction I think. In Australia acupuncture is regulated to qualified acupuncturists. Same with TCM. There's a new fed gov report coming out on the 1st of April I think related specifically to private health rebates but it should provide a decent up to date overview. Europe I noticed has different regs for each country.Gudzwabofer (talk) 03:14, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

In the US, "Their scope of practice is defined by law in the state in which they practice (for example, depending on the state, naturopathic physicians may or may not be allowed to prescribe drugs, perform minor surgery, practice acupuncture, and/or assist in childbirth)." Per the NCCIH. LeadSongDog come howl! 01:26, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

interesting. Thanks! that looks like some more digging is required. if it is just a few states i don't know that it makes sense to include acupuncture in the first sentence of the lead. if it is a bunch of them, then yes. Jytdog (talk) 02:17, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

I would say a bunch of countries, not just a bunch of us states, otherwise it belongs in a usa specific section. Gudzwabofer (talk) 05:14, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

According to http://mx.nccaom.org/StateLicensing.aspx which has links to all the relevant state government pages except a few where it's banned, 22 states require its certification (which there is a link to educational requirement of on the page) to practice acupuncture, 6 states ban acupuncture entirely, leaving 23 states where one may or may not be able to practice acupuncture without being technically an acupuncturist or TCM practitioner in addition to whatever other qualifications they may hold. Different regulatory requirements may exist for the remaining 23 states, so the links for state departments for those need to be looked into. There's also a wikipedia page specifically on global Regulation of acupuncture but it's hardly comprehensive. And could well be expanded by the state government pages linked by the nccaom. Gudzwabofer (talk) 06:50, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

I did a quick read through of the others, they all require state acupuncturist licences, and mention either one or more of the following: state exam, accreditation by the nccaom or acaom, degrees in tcm or acupuncture, often with specified required anounts of science and practical education. I can't find anything to suggest that someone who only holds qualifications in naturopathy can practice acupuncture. This is also an important distinction which should be made in the naturopathy wiki page, because if you are in the US and you see someone who is practising acupuncture without a state acupuncturist license, they are breaking the law and probably don't have adequate education to be safely sticking needles into people or ensuring proper hygiene while doing so. Gudzwabofer (talk) 07:28, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

NPOV review needed?

I was told to slow down on the debate surrounding NPOV and the quality and use of sources on this page. However every time I place the disputed neutrality tag on the page it is removed. If the tag is to be removed sooner there are only three ways I can see it happening.

1.The NPOV debate should be brought to its conclusion, with answers to the questions hanging over all current sources and their use being resolved, as well as the assessment for inclusion of sources which have been previously proposed, including some which have been removed with limited justification after attempted inclusion. -or- 2.All disputed sources and the content derived from them should be immediately removed. Pending their justification. -or- 3.The whole page should be submitted for a neutrality review. For which a summary of issues can be provided from previous posts, edit history, and the current page and reference list.

If you need additional reasons and discussion of references and their use in addition to what is already present on the talk page and revert history, then they can be provided in a timely manner, but again, I was told to slow down because there hasn't been long enough for people to consider what is there already.

Gudzwabofer (talk) 13:00, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Given you are a student of naturopathy, you don't seem to accept the mainstream view that it is a pseudoscience and are thus editing with a clear COI. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 13:16, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

The mainstream view is that elements of naturopathy have scientific support, the percentage of naturopathy which is scientifically grounded is largely dependent on education and practice, something which can vary from region to region. These points and more are things which are even shown in some of the references used on this page, however, as they have been cherry picked, and attempts to use more compete information from the sources has been blocked, only one side of the story has been shown. A declaration of interest doesn't preclude me of being critical of this page, as it shouldn't for those who are avowed sceptics with or without a background in medical science. It's about whether the page provides a complete picture of the facts, which at present, it does not. It's largely a presentation of the negative aspects of United States naturopathy. Gudzwabofer (talk) 13:28, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

You must be observing the naturopathic mainstream view, not the mainstream mainstream view. -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 13:31, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

One small example: The cancer society reference has this quote:

Available scientific evidence does not support claims that naturopathic medicine is effective for most health problems. Most of the claims of effectiveness are based on individual cases, medical records, and summaries of practitioners’ clinical experiences.

One clinical study that looked at treatment of ear pain in children tested the effectiveness of naturopathic ear drops, anesthetic ear drops, and oral antibiotics. The pain improved over 3 days in all groups, and the naturopathic drops were slightly more effective than the anesthetic drops. Antibiotics were not helpful and may have slowed recovery, as explained by other studies and the guidelines of most conventional medical groups, which do not recommend antibiotics for uncomplicated ear pain.

A Canadian study looked at anxiety in adults and found that a 12-week course of psychotherapy helped reduce anxiety, but did not help as much as a multi-pronged naturopathic approach. Of note, the psychotherapy was given by a person whose training and methods were not outlined in the study report and, like the ear pain study, may not have met the usual standards of mainstream care for the comparison group. The groups were not followed beyond 12 weeks to see if the effects lasted.

Naturopathic medicine includes many methods, which have been shown to vary in effectiveness. Available scientific evidence looking at methods such as homeopathy and colonic irrigation has not shown them to be helpful for cancer or any other disease. Other aspects of naturopathic medicine, like healthy nutrition, have been shown to lower the risk of illnesses such as heart disease and cancer. Some aspects of naturopathic medicine may be useful when used along with conventional medical treatment.

Which was clipped to this:

scientific evidence does not support claims that naturopathic medicine can cure cancer or any other disease, since virtually no studies on naturopathy as a whole have been published.

Gudzwabofer (talk) 13:42, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

The overview on naturopathy the cancer society gives is thus:

Available scientific evidence does not support claims that naturopathic medicine can cure cancer or any other disease, since virtually no studies on naturopathy as a whole have been published. The individual methods used by naturopathic medicine vary in their effectiveness. Homeopathy, for instance, has been shown in studies to be of little value. Other naturopathic methods have been shown to help in prevention and symptom management. Examples include diet for lowering the risk of severe illnesses such as heart disease and cancer and counseling, relaxation, and herbs to help reduce anxiety.

NOT:

scientific evidence does not support claims that naturopathic medicine can cure cancer or any other disease, since virtually no studies on naturopathy as a whole have been published. Gudzwabofer (talk) 13:48, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

If I were to summarize that cancer society statement, it would be "On the evidence, naturopathic medicine cures nothing. While some methods have no value at all, others help symptoms but not causes." Would that suit you any better? I suspect that the source has overstated the case, but we use the sources we have. (Some naturopathic methods (particularly herbals) do have some curative value beyond placebo, just not as much curative value as gold-standard medicine, otherwise they would be gold-standard medicine. Nutritional support is the obvious example.) LeadSongDog come howl! 14:59, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm logging off for the night, but I'll say a couple of final things (and I maybe won't be able to say anything tomorrow). There is a big difference between the terms "unproven effectiveness" and "proven ineffectiveness." Also, if you want to have a larger debate about herbal medicine and its effectiveness in whole, extract, and isolated compound form in mainstream medicine, that probably belongs on the herbal medicine page. Gudzwabofer (talk) 15:19, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)adding to what LeadSongDog wrote... I've been reading some mainstream sources on naturopathy (e.g ernst's description of naturopathy in Trick or Treatment). the heart of it is common sense mainstream medicine today - eat right, exercise, etc, and the body will (mostly) take care of itself. (i don't know if any of you or people close to you have had serious surgery, or work with surgeons, but it is remarkable how blunt surgeons are that they can only do so much, and the body has to heal itself. (with of course appropriate medication for pain and for whatever underlying condition may be going on, once the surgery is done) -- see Ileus#Intestinal_atony_or_paralysis for an example of something pretty common, where we have no options other than to wait for the body to kick in.) where naturopathy goes wrong from the mainstream perspective, is trying to treat serious conditions without medicine, or avoiding vaccines. in that sense it is as FRINGEy as Christian Science. our article is pretty heavily WEIGHTed on the latter, and maybe not enough WEIGHT on the former - on the real heart of the thing. i think that is where some of POV complaining might have some justification Jytdog (talk) 15:56, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Just to be clear... our goal is not to find ways to make naturopathy seem reasonable; our goal is to represent the claims of naturopathy accurately. You may find it reasonable to consider the advice of naturopaths in conjunction with mainstream med, and that is your prerogative, but that opinion is not a basis for deciding due weight. At its heart, naturopathy is not just "eat right and exercise"; at its heart are a slew of non-evidence-based claims about what constitutes common sense healthy living. I know a naturopath: he explained to me last week that if you have lung cancer, it can be cured by eating lungs. Exercise is a part of mainstream med too (don't believe the trope that doctors only prescribe medications and ignore lifestyle changes - the ACS strongly recommends diet and exercise, for example); where naturopathy shines through and differentiates itself from EBM is its non-EBM claims.   — Jess· Δ♥ 19:00, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

just to be clear, look at my contribs you arrogant and ignorant fuck. I know what NPOV is and I spent about 90% of my editing keeping FRINGE and quackery out of Wikipedia.Jytdog (talk) 19:09, 24 March 2015 (UTC)