User talk:Ollie231213

Ollie231213, you are invited to the Teahouse

Hi Ollie231213! Thanks for contributing to Wikipedia. Be our guest at the Teahouse! The Teahouse is a friendly space where new editors can ask questions about contributing to Wikipedia and get help from peers and experienced editors. I hope to see you there! Jtmorgan (I'm a Teahouse host) Visit the Teahouse This message was delivered automatically by your robot friend, HostBot (talk) 20:42, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

just a hint

You might not have noticed, but Said Akl was born in 1912, not 1911. A quick search at google books reveals that he apparently celebrated his 100th birthday when entering the 100th year, which is far from uncommon in Asia an Arabia. I see that you included persons whether or not there is an article about them. So you might also add Yang Jingnian (zh), professor of economics.--Xquenda (talk) 19:47, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Another one: Cecilia Seghizzi, born 5 September 1908, Italian composer and painter.--Xquenda (talk) 09:41, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Wolfgang Fränkel

What about Wolfgang Fränkel, the Attorney General of Germany? [1] He should be old enough for the alltime List.--Dangermouse600 (talk) 22:24, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Cheers!

Ollie231213 23:17, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not

Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. I noticed that your user page may not meet Wikipedia's user page guideline. If you believe that your user page does not violate our guideline, please leave a note on this page. Alternatively you may add {{Db-userreq}} to the top of the page in question and an administrator will delete it, or you can simply edit the page so that it meets Wikipedia's user page guideline. Thank you. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 23:11, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Er, what exactly is wrong with my page?

Ollie231213 (talk) 00:32, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

See WP:FAKEARTICLE. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 01:08, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

And how exactly do you determine whether a user page "looks like an article"?

I simply maintain lists that are more extensive than those featured on main Wikipedia articles and include further information which some people may find interesting/useful.

Why is it an issue if I continue to do so?

Ollie231213 (talk) 01:23, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

August 2014

Hello, I'm DerbyCountyinNZ. I wanted to let you know that I undid one or more of your recent contributions to Misao Okawa because it did not appear constructive. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thanks!

Removal of deletion discussion notice

Please don't remove a deletion discussion notice from a page while the discussion is still in progress, as you did at User:DHanson317. You must have failed to see that the notice said "You are welcome to edit this page, but please do not blank, merge, or move it, or remove this notice, while the discussion is in progress." It is a good idea to carefully read any notice you are considering removing, before doing so. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 10:32, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

draft in userspace

Hi Ollie231213. Your main userspace contains a draft/copy of an article. Per WP:HUD this should go in a user subpage. WP:FAKEARTICLE also applies. – JBarta (talk) 10:40, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Actually, looking back at your userspace history, you've had this pseudo article going from the moment you created your userpage almost a year ago. I also see this issue has been brought to your attention a few times. I'm tempted to seek deletion immediately on the grounds of WP:FAKEARTICLE, but am willing to hear from you first explaining why this has not been moved/merged to article space long ago and worked on there by the entire community. – JBarta (talk) 10:57, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Greetings,

This so-called "pseudo article" exists in the manner that it does for several reasons:

1. When I first joined Wikipedia I noticed that many people on Wikipedia used their user page for keeping lists of data and similar things. I therefore chose to keep lists of notable centenarians on my userpage, because Wikipedia has the benefit of auto-updating ages.

2. My list of "oldest living notable people" contains people who have Wikipedia articles in ANY language, not just in English.

3. I have absolutely no idea what a "user subspace" is. I am still relatively new to Wikipedia.

4. The above disagreement with DerbyCountyinNZ was not resolved.

So, maybe you could give me some direction in how to relocate the tables on my page, rather than just "seeking deletion immediately", which is NOT productive and of no help to anyone.

Regards,

Ollie231213 16:51, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Have you made any attempts to incorporate this material into existing articles or create a new article with it? If so, what were the results? – JBarta (talk) 22:23, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

What do you mean?

If I find a 100th birthday report for a notable person with an English Wiki article, I will add them to List of living centenarians. But I have not created a new article.

Ollie231213 22:28, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

I mean we're here to create an encyclopedia. We all work together creating and improving encyclopedic articles. Those articles are in the article space. Your effort is in the user space... not part of the encyclopedia and not subject to the same scrutiny by other editors that all other articles are subject to. Basically you are engaged in a personal hobby using Wikipedia as a web host.

Even if you were to move the material to user subspace, it would have to be a temporary thing with you actively moving material to article space. User space can be used for article drafts, but it's not a permanent parking spot for material that looks like an article.

The English Wikipedia has many age related articles. I would suggest that you start by going through your list line by line merging anything unique into existing articles and removing what is mere duplication, then we'll examine what's left. Is there any reason why you cannot or will not do this? – JBarta (talk) 23:13, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

I do contribute to longevity-related articles as well as keep these lists on my user page. It's not as if I am purely focussing on my own page.

I look at web host and I see this:

"Personal web pages: Wikipedians have their own user pages, but they should be used primarily to present information relevant to working on the encyclopedia. Limited biographical information is allowed, but user pages should not function as personal webpages or be repositories for large amounts of material that is irrelevant to collaborating on Wikipedia."

Why is the content on my page not relevant? And what makes the content on your page relevant?

When you say I should "go through my list line by line, merging anything unique into existing articles and removing what is mere duplication", what exactly do you mean? I could not add centenarians with say, a German Wikipedia article in to the English List of living centenarians article because it would be removed.

One more point I would like to add about "working together": I feel that many more experienced Wikipedians do not work effectively with those who are less experienced. For example, take this recent discussion about the proposed deletion of another user page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/User:DHanson317

All I was trying to do was make reasonable, logical points - but what ended up happening was that I got bombarded by users who were throwing Wikipedia guidelines at me, without giving a decent explanation as to why they disagreed with me. I have often felt that some users have become a little obsessed with power and superiority. Some are more worried about following every guideline to the letter than acting in the best interest of the encyclopedia. For example, look at this discussion:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Misao_Okawa#Oldest_.22Asian.22_person.

Unfortunately, at times I don't like the way that Wikipedia is run. I created the lists on my user page with the intention to create lists of the oldest notable people (both living and all time), which other people could look at if they wanted. The reason I did not add them to a main article on Wikipedia is because I thought that they would get taken down, because a user like Derby would object to various things, such as including people without a Wiki article.

I hope you can see why I am a little frustrated.

Regards,

Ollie231213 23:56, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia is frustrating. Yes indeed. Sometimes it seems like the whole place would be better off with all those other editors gone. But that's how the process works. That's a part of being a Wikipedia editor... editing articles WITH other editors and all too often those editors disagreeing with you. The solution however is not to develop your own personal article in private. The solution is working towards consensus.

You also mention guidelines. Guidelines can be annoying, but without them, there would be complete disorder with everyone doing whatever they want. Not good. Learning about guidelines and working within them is as much a responsibility of a Wikipedia editor as editing articles.

You also mention that some material probably wouldn't be accepted into articles by other editors. That takes us back to consensus. If you can't get a consensus to insert a bit of information into an article, then it can't be inserted. That's how the process works. And again, that doesn't mean you should then set up your own preferred version of the article in your userspace. The guidelines are pretty clear about that.

Part of being a Wikipedia editor is accepting that sometimes you don't get to do what you think is best.

Now, back to the question. Have you accepted that the material should be merged/deleted as I suggested above? – JBarta (talk) 00:23, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

And here is the problem with an encylopedia that "anyone can edit". Just because consensus has been reached does NOT mean that the best action has been taken. What if you have ten "normal" people disagreeing with an expert? Is it most important to listen to the majority, or the person that knows what they're talking about?

In response to your question: I would prefer to do anything that would not result in me losing all of the content which I put a lot of work in to creating. I will raise the issue of notable centenarians with non-English articles on Talk:List of living centenarians.

One reason for creating this list was so that I could effectively take all the "living centenarians" lists from different language Wikipedias and put them all together.

Now, please answer my questions:

1. Why is the content on my page not relevant? 2. Why is the content on your page acceptable? 3. Can I transfer the content to a page like this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Deaths_in_2013/My_OR_stuff

Ollie231213 11:43, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

1) Relevancy is not the issue. That it violates Wikipedia policy is the issue. You may have created the greatest content mortal man has ever seen. But you still cannot maintain it as you have on a Wikipedia userpage.

2) My userpage does not violate Wikipedia policy.

3) No, that userpage violates Wikipedia policy as well.

Now, quite honestly you are trying my patience with endless argument. As I said, it is your responsibility to learn and follow Wikipedia guidelines. I've been patient and tried to guide you towards fixing the problem. You're making me wonder if I've wasted my time. The material must be merged and/or deleted. A third option is available to you that will retain all your content and is fairly easy to do... remove the material completely, hire your own web host and upload it there.

Absent a clear signal from you that you're actively bringing your userspace into compliance as suggested, I'm going to nominate it for deletion. – JBarta (talk) 12:37, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Well I'm dreadfully sorry that I'm trying your patience but since I put in a lot of work in to creating the content, I am NOT happy that I am now being forced to remove it all. I was under the illusion that what I have been doing is fine because other people had maintained similar content for SEVERAL YEARS without any campaign to delete them, such as Dhanson317.

I have already had someone back up my suggestion on Talk:List of living centenarians, so at least let me wait to see if we can gain consensus on my idea, because I could then merge my stuff in to that.

Ollie231213 13:58, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Fair enough. I will back off for a while and let you get to work. (Regarding what other people have done, you might find WP:OSE useful.) – JBarta (talk) 14:29, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Even I can't get consensus, I would at least like some time to copy all the data to somewhere else, eg. a spreadsheet.

Ollie231213 14:42, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

From what I can see, at least one user is supportive of such an addition, and I don't see any problem either (other than possibly notability issues). I think you should reply to Michael Bednarek saying you going to go ahead and make some additions. Then do so. If other editors remove your additions, take it to article talk and try to work out the problem. And remember, working with editors who disagree with you can be frustrating... sometimes downright infuriating. Be patient, and make your arguments based on Wikipedia policy and guidelines... not based on your anger and frustration. WP:DISPUTE might also be useful to you. – JBarta (talk) 15:03, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Okay, I will do. Thank you for your understanding. I am here with the aim of improving Wikipedia, not to fight with other users and ignore guidelines. I just feel that sometimes, the rules need to be bent slightly. Not doing so can be detrimental to the article, and if a majority are more interested in sticking rigidly to the guidelines, then I see this is as a problem (see Talk:Misao Okawa). Sigh. Nothing much can be done about this, unfortunately.

Ollie231213 15:15, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

MfD nomination of User:Ollie231213

User:Ollie231213, a page you substantially contributed to, has been nominated for deletion. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Ollie231213 and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~). You are free to edit the content of User:Ollie231213 during the discussion but should not remove the miscellany for deletion template from the top of the page; such a removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. Ricky81682 (talk) 22:04, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Ollie231213, yes, you have discussed this with me, and at the end of our conversation you indicated you were going to merge what you can and delete the rest. I can see you have made some effort to merge some information, but the situation is largely unchanged and you have attracted the attention of others. Here's the situation... almost certainly in a short amount of time (several days?) your userpage will be deleted. Before that happens you are welcome to copy the material and store it on your own personal computer. Then you may take as long as you wish to merge whatever you'd like into existing articles. And after this episode has passed, you should confine your article/list building to Wikipedia articles (new or existing). – JBarta (talk) 23:02, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

threading

Ollie, I really have to comment about your lack of threading in discussions. In a discussion thread, reply to a post by preceding your comments with colons (:) to indent your comment to the appropriate spot. Look at virtually any discussion thread (other than ones you have participated in) to see how this is done.When you comment without proper indentation, it makes the thread almost impossible to follow. Below is an example of threading (view source to see how it's done)....

Comment.

Reply to comment.

Further reply.

And even more reply.

Comment about something else.

Reply to something else.

It's a simple system actually. Please, for the sake of others trying to follow the discussion, use it.

Thanks. – JBarta (talk) 21:59, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Sorry about that. Better? Ollie231213 22:03, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Your post above is perfect. ;-) – JBarta (talk) 22:07, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

GRG-related articles

I wanted to let you know that I know that you're looking to improve the encyclopaedia and that I also know that all of this deletion and reliable source/original research stuff seems to be coming out of nowhere and is overwhelming.

Believe it or not, I'm not deliberately setting out to make things difficult for you or the other GRG editors. Wikipedia has a veritable maze of policies and guidelines. Unfortunately, it seems that many of the GRG members who edit here didn't know about these policies and so have been doing what they thought was right, which turned out not to be the same as what Wikipedia thinks is the right thing. Now we have a situation where, years later, all of this is coming to light and it's a huge bunch of stuff to deal with all at once. Honestly, I wish all of this had come up a long time ago, too, because there are so many articles affected and it's going to be a lot of (tedious) work to fix them.

Leaving all this alone isn't really an option, because once it's known that these problems exist, they can't be ignored. I hope we can work together instead of being at loggerheads. Ca2james (talk) 03:21, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

I understand that guidelines exist for a reason, and I understand why they are enforced. What is frustrating to me, however, is that these longevity-related articles have been run quite smoothly, by people who are knowledgeable in the field of supercentenarian "tracking". I don't think that contributors are unaware of the guidelines - rather, they are choosing to bend the rules with the intent of improving the encyclopaedia. Everyone involved in supercentenarian study knows that Tessaku Tominaga passed away in October... so, we add him to List of supercentenarians who died in 2014, even if there is no secondary source to back this up.

Verifiability is important, I agree... and really, I cannot present any further logically sound argument in favour of continuing running things the way we do. All I would say is that the encyclopaedia will become less accurate if this does not continue. This is why I've been trying persuade people to use common sense and sometimes bend the rules if necessary. It may not apply to article above, but it certainly does in other situations... see Talk:Misao Okawa#Oldest "Asian" person.

I am happy to collaborate with you as long as the changes made are constructive, rather than destructive. -- Ollie231213 14:00, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Verifiability isn't just a guideline that can be bent or overlooked: it's one of the three core content policies, along with no original research and maintaining a neutral point of view. Knowledge you have of an event is considered original research on Wikipedia and is not acceptable as a reliable source. Because Wikipedia requires reliable sources, some of the information contained in the encyclopaedia is necessarily a bit out of date - that's the tradeoff being made. Waiting to add information until reliable sources are available may impact the short-term accuracy of that information but in the long term the accuracy is unaffected. Also, reporting a person's death isn't the same as saying that the sky is blue or that Japan is part of Asia. The biographies of living persons policy (which includes recently deceased persons) has even stricter sourcing requirements than for other subjects. The people in these tables are not public figures and policy says that we must exercise restraint and include only material relevant to the person's notability, focusing on high-quality secondary sources. We can't just say that someone has died; we have to have proof in terms of reliable sources.

I am troubled by your statement that you and the other GRG editors are deliberately ignoring the verifiability and original research policies because to me those policies are intrinsic to the way Wikipedia works. I might be completely wrong about this interpretation so pinging Randykitty, The Blade of the Northern Lights, NE Ent, and Ricky81682 for guidance and advice. Thanks. Ca2james (talk) 17:48, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Ca2james is absolutely correct on those policies. Not following them is highly disruptive. Note that editors who habitually flaunt these policies can be blocked from editing. --Randykitty (talk) 17:53, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

I can't say for sure what the mindsets of other editors are. Some people may not be aware of these policies. But regardless, people are only concerned with improving the accuracy of the articles. To call it "disruptive" is misleading. -- Ollie231213 14:32, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Of course it is only disruptive if they would persist after being made aware of the policies. At least for you, you are now aware, perhaps some of the others, too. --Randykitty (talk) 15:38, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

I've been following the discussions on the project talk page (having ended up there after reading one of the articles in the scope of the project), and I have a question for everyone: what is GRG? (I can tell from context it is an organization.) What are some reliable, secondary sources I could look up to find out more about the organization and how it operates? What are some general published sources outside of Wikipedia that cite that organization for its findings? -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 21:43, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Please allow me to renew my question here. What reliable, published (not self-published) sources may a reader turn to for information about the Gerontology Research Group and for findings about persons of unusually old age? (I'm especially referring to the kind of sources that are identified in the Wikipedia content guideline on reliable sources for medical claims. I'd really like to know. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 18:45, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

@ WeijiBaikeBianji - I'll try and get back to you later. -- Ollie231213 21:52, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

@ WeijiBaikeBianji - The GRG's publications have frequently featured in Rejuvenation Research, a peer-reviewed scientific journal published by Mary Ann Liebert that covers research on rejuvenation and biogerontology. See here. There are also reliable sources for the GRG in areas that you might not first suspect - here, for example. Furthermore, the GRG is recognised as a leading authority on supercentenarian verification by Guinness World Records, and if you do a Google search for supercentenarian-related articles, the GRG is referenced very often. Please see here, here, here, and here for a few examples. Cheers -- Ollie231213 21:11, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. Ah, Rejuvenation Research. Why not then just build Wikipedia articles from sources of that nature, rather than using Wikipedia as a place of first publication of GRG preliminary findings, contrary to the statement of what Wikipedia is not? -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 21:31, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

What are you referring to when you say "rather than using Wikipedia as a place of first publication of GRG preliminary findings"? -- Ollie231213 22:29, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Connie Galea oldest woman ever from Malta?

Hi. Do you know who is oldest verified person ever from Malta? There has been several reports about Maltese centenarians between 102-106 in last years. I've read that oldest woman ever from Malta was Connie Galea who passed away in 2000 at the age of 109. I think that Malta should be added from Oldest people by Nation if possible? 62.72.228.251 (talk) 15:37, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Reference errors on 23 June

Hello, I'm ReferenceBot. I have automatically detected that an edit performed by you may have introduced errors in referencing. It is as follows:

• On the List of living centenarians page, your edit caused an unnamed parameter error (help). (Fix | Ask for help)

Please check this page and fix the errors highlighted. If you think this is a false positive, you can report it to my operator. Thanks, ReferenceBot (talk) 00:19, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Conflict of interest in Wikipedia

Hi Ollie231213 - along with my other editing, I work on conflict of interest issues here in WP. You work on GRG related articles here in Wikipedia and advocate that Wikipedia should rely on the work of that group. I don't see anywhere, that you have made a statement of whether you are part of that group. While I am not asking you to disclose your identity (anonymity is strictly protecting by out WP:OUTING policy) would you please disclose if you have some connection with the GRG? You can answer how ever you wish (giving personally identifying information or not), but if there is a connection, with please disclose it. After you respond (and you can just reply below), perhaps we can talk about that a bit. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 12:18, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

No, I am not part of the group, I just have a good understanding of what it is and how it works. But let me make it clear that I'm not advocating that Wikipedia should rely specifically on this source - I'm just advocating that Wikipedia relies on a trustworthy body that deals with age verification. That could be any reputable organisation similar to the GRG. It just so happens, however, that there simply isn't any other such body. My goal is to make sure that potentially fraudulent longevity claimants are not confused with people whose ages are verifiably genuine, but this seems to often be confused with "promoting" the GRG (which is a nonprofit organisation by the way). Ollie231213 (talk) 12:39, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for replying. OK, advocacy in WP generally arises from two sources - an actual connection (e.g. being a member of the group) or being a "fan". I take it you are the latter yes? Jytdog (talk) 12:51, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

I don't like the word but yes I suppose that's correct. Ollie231213 (talk) 13:07, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

I hear you - I put it in quotes on purpose. I didn't respond to your note about nonprofits. My COI work generally is prompted when I see promotional editing or other kinds of advocacy, which leads me to open discussions like this with the editor doing that. i have conversations like this all the time. Around half the time, the folks promoting/advocating are doing so on behalf of a nonprofit, and of those, most often they are overtly doing PR for that organization. Less frequently, they are "fans". For-profit advocacy is just a subset of the larger issue of advocacy; the "nonprofit" aspect is irrelevant - promotional editing and advocacy are what they are, and generally they distort Wikipedia.

But I hear where you are coming from on this age verification thing - there is probably an enormous amount of baloney out there about that and I hear you, that GRG is very useful. In many ways you are like other science-based editors here who want to be very sure that what Wikipedia says is accurate. But my sense is that you are going to have a very uphill battle, arguing that WP should rely only on GRG for age verification.... Anyway.... Thank you again for talking with me! Jytdog (talk) 13:22, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

Thankyou, finally someone sympathises with me! Ollie231213 (talk) 13:48, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

Yes I do understand. I hope you understand that advocacy sets off all kinds of bells for other editors... Jytdog (talk) 14:02, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

Koto Okubo

Well it's been a few years anyways so I started Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Koto Okubo (2nd nomination). I don't know if there's consensus that just having been the world's oldest person overall is sufficient for notability (at the time she was the oldest woman in Asia and that wasn't sufficient) and I think we have another one on Australia so we'll see. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:29, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Arbitration Committee notice

You are involved in a recently-filed request for clarification or amendment from the Arbitration Committee. Please review the request at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment#Amendment request: Longevity and, if you wish to do so, enter your statement and any other material you wish to submit to the Arbitration Committee. Additionally, the Wikipedia:Arbitration guide may be of use.

Thanks, -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:27, 25 August 2015 (UTC)