Talk:Scott Walker

Scott Walker

Where does the architect Scott Tallon Walker come in from? Andy Bjornovich (talk) (contributions) (email) 17:21, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Primary topic

I think its' pretty clear that Scott Walker (singer) should be the primary topic here. None of the others come anywhere close to the recognition that the singer has, and I suspect that 90% plus of people coming here looking for Scott Walker are looking for the singer. I would therefore propose that this disambiguation page is moved to Scott Walker (disambiguation) and Scott Walker (singer) moved here. --Michig (talk) 05:54, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

In the last 90 days the page on the politician has been visited 269191 times while the singer has been visited 65141 times. Those numbers don't indicate that the singer is the more likely target of this page. Tassedethe (talk) 15:15, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

I think that Scott Walker (politician) is the most important topic. For the past 1.5 years, WI's labor reforms are an omnipresent issue, and most people have probably never heard of a singer with the same name. 38.111.32.82 (talk) 15:41, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Both articles have recently been getting similar numbers of page hits. The difference is that the singer has been internationally popular since the 1960s while the politician is virtually unknown outside the US. --Michig (talk) 19:23, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

I am not American, but I know about the massive coverage his labor reforms, and subsequent protests and recall have generated, not to mention his speculation as a potential 2016 candidate. The singer? No clue who that is. Therefore the disambiguation page should redirect to the Wisconsin governor. 128.164.27.98 (talk) 20:52, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

I agree that this page should be moved from "Scott Walker" to "Scott Walker (disambiguation)". I have started a move request below.Anythingyouwant (talk) 19:13, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 13 July 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move. Consensus has been established that the American politician is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Cúchullain ^t/c 14:20, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

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• Scott Walker → Scott Walker (disambiguation)
• Scott Walker (politician) → Scott Walker

– Per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, the politician is the primary topic with respect to usage, because the politician is much more likely than all the other topics combined to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term. With respect to long-term significance, either no one is the primary topic or else the politician is the primary topic, and it makes no difference because the politician is the primary topic as to usage. The only other topic that comes close is Scott Walker (singer), as discussed at the disambiguation talk page. If you go to "what links here" and hide redirects, the singer has less than 450 items listed, whereas the politician has more than 600. Article traffic statistics are more telling: in the past 90 days the singer has 35476 hits, whereas the politician has 179,616. Google news hits: 155,000 for the singer, versus about 1.4 million for the politician. Google books garners about 831 for the politician, versus 961 for the singer, but Google Scholar gives 3050 hits for the politician versus 936 for the singer. Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:54, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose. The politician is virtually unknown outside North America. The singer is internationally famous. Try a non-American search engine and the results will likely be very different. --Michig (talk) 19:00, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support per my nomination. The results may (or may not) be different using search engines in other languages, but this is the English Wikipedia, and the instructions say to use Google.Anythingyouwant (talk) 19:10, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support - Per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC (usage). Page views are compelling by a factor of about five for the past 90 days. My estimation is that both subjects have roughly equal long-term significance.- MrX 21:42, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose. All search engine results are heavily skewed to WP:RECENTISM and current news spikes. Wikipedia:Search engine test#Interpreting results warns not to solely rely on raw counts. Even this Billboard article states, "Within the last few years fans of avant-indie music have come to terms with the fact that the name Scott Walker is no longer most closely associated with the American-born British singer-songwriter (emphasis added)".[1] In other words, the American politician was only a relative unknown until just a few years ago, while the singer has been notable for at least 40 years. Thus, only judging search engine results for just a period of just 90 days in this type of case is insufficient -- if it were, thousands of primary topics would change solely based on recentism and current news spikes, leading to an unstable online encyclopedia. Zzyzx11 (talk) 05:25, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

• The Google search results that I gave were not limited to 90 days. The Wikipedia stats that I gave were limited to 90 days, but you can confirm that the politician has been getting way more Wikipedia hits than the singer throughout 2015, and that is very likely to continue given the career trajectories. The Billboard article discusses "the last few years" and the trend over those last few years is unmistakeable.Anythingyouwant (talk) 10:29, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

• Support - No matter how you slice it (search engine results, page views, etc.), Governor Walker is the most notable of the Scott Walkers. I am surprised that it has taken this long for a serious move proposal to happen. PrairieKid (talk) 07:36, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose per above, the singer has and continues to have a long illustrious career on a worldwide stage. See the very good documentary Scott Walker: 30 Century Man. Randy Kryn 10:26, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

So does Steve McQueen (director).Anythingyouwant (talk) 10:44, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

The point that WP:RECENT comes into play here is relevant. If the Governor is selected for a major party Presidential or Vice Presidential nomination then I'd likely support this move, but as of now his prominence is within the U.S. and the Midwest. Granted that he will gain more prominence and be featured in news articles during his presidential run, but if he finishes as an also-ran then that will fade quickly. Randy Kryn 11:14, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

If the politician suddenly fades away, after several years as the clear primary topic, then consensus about the article titles can change.Anythingyouwant (talk) 11:55, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

• Support. These decisions must be based on the most current and best available data, not speculation concerning future trends. H. Humbert (talk) 12:24, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support. Without specifically disagreeing with H. Humbert, I have to point out that the politician is going to be the primary usage, and a long-term attempt to deny it will likely cause another Hillary Clinton-style mess (even that would be better than a Grant Shapps-style incident). Better to move now and avoid gaming. 209.211.131.181 (talk) 16:31, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support. The singer is indeed highly notable, but I think only a niche group of searchers would be looking for him, while an average search for "Scott Walker" is almost certainly designed to reach the governor. Also, it's not like he's just suddenly gaining notoriety due to the presidential campaign; he has been an exceptionally controversial figure at the national level (and even internationally...google "Scott Walker Chatham House" for more info) since 2011. 74.127.175.164 (talk) 00:38, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose. I believe that Scott Walker the politician is currently slightly more relevant. I do think we should wait just a little bit longer as he has only announced his candidacy.MeropeRiddle 00:52, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
• Strong support - we're talking about a singer versus a governor?? Seriously?? Goodness sakes, could the two criteria of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC be any clearer? Red Slash 00:13, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support I did a double-take when searching for "Scott Walker" led me to a disambiguation page. Search Google News for "Scott Walker" and 99% of the stories are about the Wisconsin Governor, a man who has a good chance of becoming the next President of the United States. --Tocino 06:20, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose - Unless he becomes the president or the US congressman, let's not make him primary topic right now. Even when popular, he can't outmatch the significance of the singer. He is a mere governor of one state, while the singer was notable as part of band and solo singer in two or more countries. George Ho (talk) 02:11, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support. Clearly meets the objective primary topic criterion, usage – I don't think anyone would disagree with that. The other criterion, long-term significance, is of course subjective. Personally I would say a governor and presidential candidate has more long-term significance than a singer, but I guess others could disagree. Jenks24 (talk) 11:48, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support as per primary topic. Hugh (talk) 15:37, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose. Recentism and US-centricism aside, the singer is clearly the primary topic. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:43, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

  Brah, it took fourteen years to get America to redirect to United States. Meanwhile, a small Irish city somehow still has primary topic at Limerick. This is not a US-centric encyclopedia. On that note, any objective reasoning would show that someone who has the sole authority to pardon crimes, veto or approve legislature, and execute the laws of a state with over five million people is probably more relevant than someone who... sings. Red Slash 04:40, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

• Support Clearly the primary topic in usage. Just based on his term as governor he's a highly influential figure; you don't need to be elected to a national office to be of enduring fame and historical impact—e.g. Floyd B. Olson, George Wallace, Jerry Brown. —innotata 21:20, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support based on primary topic criteria, and Walker the politician's growing prominence (thinking of union backlash and now his current presidential bid). He's not going away and his profile is likely only to rise, especially on the international scale if he gains any sort of traction for the presidency. Fuzchia (talk) 15:30, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

  "Likely to rise", the singer's history and traction have already risen on a larger stage. The U.S. centric politician may or may not become a worldwide figure. Politics is just one profession, not always the prime topic of every name that wins a local office. Randy Kryn 11:14, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

  The standard is "highly likely...to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term" (WP:PRIMARYTOPIC). The candidate is the subject that readers have been searching for recently. I don't see a scenario under which he would be less notable next year than he is now. H. Humbert (talk) 12:38, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

  Running for president of the United States is hardly a local office. Fuzchia (talk) 19:34, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

  Local office? Are you aware that there are more people in Wisconsin than in Ireland? Red Slash 18:05, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

  There are more people in Ireland (and better beer). He's running for president in a large field, if he gets the nomination for president of vice president maybe this should be revisited. Randy Kryn 18:30, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

  Are you trolling? Wisconsin Republic of Ireland Red Slash 19:34, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

  No, just remembering that a little place called Northern Ireland is part of the Isle. Ireland's population leaves Wisconsin in the dust (or in the cheese). Randy Kryn 11:02, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

• Support per primary topic. —Lowellian (reply) 07:42, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support per nom. The governor is the clear primary topic. None of the opposes are convincing either. Calidum T|C 01:13, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose. Outside the U.S. the singer is the primary topic. --Rob Sinden (talk) 11:02, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

  Indeed, and in the U.S., Birmingham is not the primary topic. We don't decide based on how one country feels or does not feel; we decide holistically. See WP:WHATCOMESTOMIND. Red Slash 17:44, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

  "WP:What comes to mind" also contains this language: "There are two different comic book characters called "Dennis the Menace" that are well known in the U.K. and the U.S. respectively, but since neither has worldwide dominance over the other, there is no primary topic and Dennis the Menace goes to a disambiguation page." which sums up this discussion. The politician is a state Governor in the U.S. who is trying to gain a wider office but has not yet come close, and the singer is known by millions of people worldwide. Both are known and popular to a great deal of people, hence the disambiguation probably should take precedent. Randy Kryn 18:00, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

  For two things which are roughly equal in relevance. Birmingham, AL is more important to Americans than Birmingham, UK, but each one's actual overall significance is very unequal. Red Slash 19:34, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

  And WP:WHATCOMESTOMIND to the majority of people outside of the U.S. is the singer, not the politician. To move the politician to the primary topic demonstrates a U.S. centric bias. Best leave the status quo with no primary topic, unless he becomes president or something. --Rob Sinden (talk) 10:26, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

• Support: easily the primary topic. He has an international profile, just because he is American doesn't automatically make this proposal US-centric. Ebonelm (talk) 22:32, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support, after looking at this it appears the governor is clearly the primary topic. Kharkiv07 (T) 04:11, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Interesting that this requested move was not posted at the main article. Why? - Cwobeel (talk) 14:52, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

A notice was placed there on July 13 by the RM bot.[2]--Cúchullain ^t/c 14:56, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 9 August 2016

• Scott Walker (disambiguation) → Scott Walker
• Scott Walker → Scott Walker (politician)

– After one year of the current setup, it has become very clear that there is no primary topic. Much of what the nominator says is no longer true today - "the politician is the primary topic with respect to usage, because the politician is much more likely than all the other topics combined to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term." & "with respect to long-term significance, either no one is the primary topic or else the politician is the primary topic, and it makes no difference because the politician is the primary topic as to usage". The 90-day usage stats presented in the previous discussion were probably heavily inflated because of recentism - back then, the nominator notes 35476 pageviews for the singer and 179616 for the politician. Now, the politician has dropped to 78977, while the singer has remained consistent with 54421. This is not a very impressive difference, and it shows the politician's pageviews are dropping steadily and will likely only continue to do so. The margin (when solely comparing the politician and singer) is only 59.2% for the politician, so he is not "highly likely—much more likely than any other topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term." Systemic bias plays a role, too; right now I'm in Canada and Google results favor the singer, who has more worldwide prominence than the politician who would likely be unknown here. MelanieLamont (talk) 19:05, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

• Support per nom, if the original request had been proposed with the politican only getting 59% of the pageviews, it likely would've fell on its face. Scott Walker (singer) is too well-known and influential for there to be a primary topic. Nohomersryan (talk) 19:25, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
• Support move per nom. No primary topic.  ONR  (talk)  23:15, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
• Support. I was opposed to the move in the first place because (as I basically wrote in the previous RM discussion) the results, both page views and search engine results, were heavily skewed based on recentism and then-current news spikes. Zzyzx11 (talk) 03:27, 10 August 2016 (UTC)