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Enclosure (Agricultural Revolution)

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• Link requested to be whitelisted: www:fivebooks.com/interview/james-hunter-on-the-highland-clearances/

I have found a very useful interview with Prof Jim Hunter, one of the academic experts on the Highland Clearances. Jim Hunter, Eric Richards and Tom Devine are the three major academic writers on the subject - all with current or emeritus professor status at relevant universities - and their work summarises and cites much of the work done by other academics working in the field. They stand in contrast to the many "popular" writers in the subject, many of whom express outdated, romanticised or biased views of the subject. (There are some writers who fall in-between these extremes.) I would like to be able to use the interview appearing in fivebooks.com as it brings together and specifically states opinions that one can deduce from other works, but to do so might be accused of WP:SYNTH. Therefore, please would you whitelist the interview with Jim Hunter.

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[first edit on Highland Clearances]

[first edit on Highland Clearances] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Highland_Clearances&diff=prev&oldid=785133631

[first edit on Highland Clearances]

[old version of the article]

[[3]]

Please see the bizarre post by WyndingHeadland on 22:29, 1 November 2017 (UTC). The answer immediately after by User:Catrìona sums up what we all feel.
ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 22:49, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

x

I think we need to look at some hard facts here.

The vast majority of edits by WyndingHeadland do not have any cited references that have been added by WyndingHeadland.

If you look at the [first edit by this user] it appears that they have inserted multiple citations. However, this is simply a cut and paste from an old version of the article where you will find the cut and pasted text under the heading Religion - WyndingHeadland has not provided any of these citations (and I very much doubt that they have read any of them - some are difficult to obtain). There is also the glaring addition "Whilst most historians relate the response to Jacobitism as being a key element in the sequence of events that covers the Highland Clearances period." Not only is there no cited reference to this statement, but it is a totally outdated view which is not supported by any modern historians - a bit like insisting on pre-Einstein rules of physics!

[Their second edit] inserts word "Roman" with no justification or cited reference.

[Their third edit] deletes text and its accompanying supporting reference, with no reason or justification given. No hint that they have read the cited reference, though this is a readily available book on the subject, used by most editors on the article.

Fast forward to some later edits on other articles:

[The 19th edit by WyndingHeadland] makes some changes that I am not qualified to comment on, but with no cited references. This applies to other the edits made to this article.

The article Scots Gaels speaks for itself - you will find only 4 cited references here (one being used twice, so appearing to give 5).They do not seem adequate to support the article. Reference 2 is a rather short precis of an entire lecture. Together with reference 3, these represent arguments that represent one half of a debate, as is clear from reading both these references. Also, I am not sure how authoritative a blog by [[4]] is - it does not match Wikipedia guidance.

Phases of the Clearances

The first phase of the Clearances occurred mostly over the period 1760‎ to 1815. However, it began before the Jacobite rebellion of 1745, with its roots in the decision of the Dukes of Argyll to put tacks (or leases) of farms and townships up for auction. This began with Campbell property in Kintyre in the 1710s and spread after 1737 to all their holdings.

First phase clearances involved break up of the traditional townships (bailes), the essential element of land management in Scottish Gaeldom. These multiple tenant farms were managed by tacksmen. To replace this system, individual arable smallholdings or crofts were created, with shared access to common grazing. This process was often accompanied by movement of the people from the interior straths and glens to the coast, where they had employment in, for example, the kelp or fishing industries. Their former possessions were then converted into large sheep holdings. Essentially, therefore, this phase was characterised by relocation rather than outright expulsion.

The second phase of clearance started in 1815-20, continuing to the 1850s. It followed the collapse or stagnation of the wartime industries and continuing rise in population. These economic effects are illustrated by the contemporary commodity prices: kelp had been falling since 1810, in 1823 the market price in Liverpool was £9 a ton, which fell to £3 13s 4d a ton in 1828, which is 41% of the 1823 price. Wool prices also reduced over a similar period to a quarter of the price obtained in 1818, and black cattle nearly halved in price between 1810 and the 1830s.

In the second phase. landlords moved to the more draconian policy of expelling people from their estates. This was increasingly associated with 'compulsory emigration', in which landlords cancelled rent arrears and paid the passage of the 'redundant' families in their estates to North America and, eventually, Australia. The process reached a climax during the potato famine of 1846-55.

First phase of clearance c.1760‎-c.1815-break up of the traditional joint tenancie(bailes) and creation of individual smallholdings or crofts.This process was often accompanied by movement of the people from the interior glens to the coastlands there to work in kelp and fishing.Their former possessions were then converted into large sheep holdings.Essentially,therefore,this phase was characterised by relocation rather than outright expulsion. Second phase of clearance 1815-20 to 1850s-with collapse or stagnation of the wartime bi-employments and continuing rise in population,landlords move to the more draconian policy of expelling people from their estates.This was increasingly associated with 'compulsory emigration',in which the landed class concelled arrears and paid passage of the 'redundant' families in their estates to North America,and eventually Australia.The process reached a climax during the potato famine of 1846-55.

George Leveson-Gower

Leveson-Gower was born in 1758, the son of the Marquess of Stafford. In 1785 he married Elizabeth, daughter of the Earl of Sutherland. She had inherited the Earldom and its associated estates following a well-known legal case which established the unusual principle that the Earldom could pass through the female as well as the male line.

In the early nineteenth century the couple initiated sweeping reforms to their estate in Sutherland. The Duke delegated most of the running of the Sutherland estate to his wife, who took an active interest in the task. The Duke did, as perhaps the wealthiest person in Britain at the time, provide the huge amount of money that was invested in the estate, building roads, bridges and harbours, and sinking a coal mine (the only one in the Highlands).

Opinion on the Duke varies. Modern historians generally take the view that he and his wife were shocked by the poor living condition of their tenants and the outdated agricultural practices used. Advised to follow the latest economic and social theories they decided to resettle the population in new villages along the coast to make way for large sheep farms inland. These new settlements were intended to provide work in a range of non-agricultural industries as well as providing labour for the new, larger farms. The same historians tend to regard the Sutherland Clearances as a failed social experiment. Even James Loch, the key advisor to the Sutherlands on the running of their estates, later conceded that they did too much, too quickly in trying to modernise. The large capital investments made by the Duke achieved such a poor return that they could be considered, in the view of Professor Eric Richards as "a loss to the nation".

The more populist view on the Duke of Sutherland is that that he decided it would be more profitable for the estate to turn the land over to large scale sheep farming, and so the tenants would have to go, whether they wanted to or not.

Some would say that he was shocked by the conditions his tenants were living in and he became convinced that the interior of Sutherland could not support these subsistence farmers long term. Advised to follow the latest economic and social theories he decided to resettle the population in new villages along the coast to make way for large sheep farms inland. The other - and probably more common view - is

Either way, these reforms led to thousands of people being evicted from their homes and farms. There are many accounts of people being forcibly evicted and houses, even whole settlements, being set on fire by the over zealous actions of the people employed by the Duke. The Sutherland clearances were not by any means the only clearances - this period saw similar occurrences throughout Scotland, not just in the Highlands but in many rural lowland areas as well. However the Sutherland clearances are among the most notorious.

Leveson-Gower was created first Duke of Sutherland for his services to politics in 1833, just a few months before his death. He died in July of that year at Dunrobin Castle and was buried at Dornoch Cathedral. In 1834 a subscription was started in order to pay for a monument in his memory. Subscriptions came in from far and wide, which is surprising given his reputation today. Work soon began and the stone for the massive base and plinth was quarried from the north east side of Ben Bhraggie, just 50 yards or so from the monument's location. The statue itself was sculpted by Sir Francis Chantrey and it was taken up to the top of the Ben in pieces by horse and cart. The monument, all 100 feet of it, was completed in 1837 and it has dominated the views of east Sutherland ever since. It is known locally as the "Mannie".

Modern era

A steady shift away from Scottish Gaelic continued into and through the modern era. Some of this was driven by policy decisions by government or other organisations, some originated from social changes. In the last quarter of the 20th century, efforts began to encourage use of the language.

The Statutes of Iona, enacted by James VI in 1609, was one piece of legislation that addressed, among other things, the Gaelic language. It compelled the heirs of clan chiefs to be educated in lowland, protestant, English-speaking schools. James VI took several such measures to impose his rule on the Highland and Island region. In 1616 the Privy Council proclaimed that schools teaching in English should be established. Gaelic was seen, at this time, as one of the causes of the instability of the region. It was also associated with catholicism.

The Society in Scotland for the Propagation of Christian Knowledge (SSPCK) was founded in 1709. They met in 1716, immediately after the failed Jacobite rebellion of 1715, to consider the reform and civilisation of the Highlands, which they sought to achieve by teaching English and the protestant religion. Initially their teaching was entirely in English, but soon the impracticality of educating Gaelic-speaking children in this way gave rise to a modest concession: in 1723 teachers were allowed to translate English words in the Bible into Gaelic was allowed to aid comprehension, but there was no further permitted use. Other less prominent schools worked in the Highlands at the same time, also teaching in English. This process of anglicisation paused when evangelical preachers arrived in the Highlands, convinced that people should be able to read religious texts in their own language. The first well-known translation of the Bible into Scottish Gaelic was made in 1767 when Dr James Stuart of Killin and Dugald Buchanan of Rannoch produced a translation of the New Testament. In 1798 4 tracts in Gaelic were published by the Society for Propagating the Gospel at Home. 5,000 copies of each were printed. Other publications followed, with a full Gaelic Bible in 1801. The influential and effective Gaelic Schools Society was founded in 1811. Their purpose was to teach Gaels to read the Bible in their own language. In the first quarter of the 19th century, the SSPCK (despite their anti-Gaelic attitude in prior years) and the British and Foreign Bible Society distributed 60,000 Gaelic Bibles and 80,000 New Testaments. It is estimated that this overall schooling and publishing effort gave some 300,000 people in the Highlands some basic literacy.{clanship to crofters war}

Counterintuitively, access to schooling in Gaelic increased knowledge of English. In 1829 the Gaelic Schools Society reported that parents were unconcerned about their children learning Gaelic, but were anxious to have them taught English. The SSPCK also found Highlanders to have significant prejudice against Gaelic. T M Devine attributes this to an association between English and the prosperity of employment: the Highland economy relied greatly on seasonal migrant workers travelling outside the Gàidhealtachd. In 1863, an observer sympathetic to Gaelic stated that "knowledge of English is indispensible to any poor islander who wishes to learn a trade or to earn his bread beyond the limits of his native Isle." Generally, rather than Gaelic speakers, it was Celtic societies in the cities and professors of Celtic from universities who sought to preserve the language.

The Education (Scotland) Act 1872 provided universal education in Scotland, but banned teaching in Gaelic. The mechanism for supporting Gaelic through the Education Codes issued by the Scottish Education Department were steadily used to overcome this ban, with many concessions in place by 1918. However, the members of Highland school boards tended to have anti-Gaelic attitudes and served as an obstacle to Gaelic education in the late 19th and early 20th century.

Scottish Gaelic has a rich oral (beul-aithris) and written tradition, having been the language of the bardic culture of the Highland clans for many years. The language preserves knowledge of and adherence to pre-feudal laws and customs, the salience of which was evident in the complaints and claims of the Highland Land League in the late 19th century, which elected MPs to the Parliament of the United Kingdom. However, the language suffered under centralization efforts by the Scottish and later British states, especially after the Battle of Culloden in 1746, during the Highland Clearances, and by the exclusion of Scottish Gaelic from the educational system. Even before then, charitable schools operated by the Society in Scotland for the Propagation of Christian Knowledge (SSPCK) used instructional methods designed to suppress the language in favour of English and corporal punishment against students using Gaelic. This was counterbalanced by the activities of the Gaelic Schools Society, founded in 1811. the 19th century, the SSPCK and the British and Foreign Bible Society distributed 60,000 Gaelic Bibles and 80,000 New TestameTheir primary purpose was to teach Gaels literacy in their own language, with emphasis on being able to read the Bible. In the first quarter ofnts.

The first well-known translation of the Bible into Scottish Gaelic was made in 1767 when Dr James Stuart of Killin and Dugald Buchanan of Rannoch produced a translation of the New Testament. The translation of the entire Bible was completed in 1801. In the first quarter of the 19th century, the SSPCK and the British and Foreign Bible Society distributed 60,000 Gaelic Bibles and 80,000 New Testaments.

Very few European languages have made the transition to a modern literary language without an early modern translation of the Bible; the lack of a well-known translation may have contributed to the decline of Scottish Gaelic.

In the 21st century, Scottish Gaelic literature has seen development within the area of prose fiction publication, as well as challenges due to the continuing decline of the language.

Causes

The Highland Clearances were part of the Scottish Agricultural Revolution but happened later and over a shorter time span than the same process in the Scottish Lowlands, in England and, to a large extent, elsewhere in Europe. The growing cities of the Industrial Revolution presented an increased demand for food; land came to be seen as an asset to meet this need, and as a source of profit, rather than a means of support for its resident population. Before improvement, Highland agriculture was based on runrig arable areas under the common management of the community and common land for grazing, those working in this system lived in townships or bailteans. With no individual leases or ownership of plots of such land, there is little incentive to improve it (for instance by drainage, or using crop rotation systems). Nor, with common grazing, could an individual owner improve the quality of his stock. Inclosure of the common lands and the runrig fields incentivised improvement, but, more importantly, allowed a change in land use. In many clearances, this change was the replacement of mixed farming (in which cattle provided a cash crop) with large-scale sheep farming. In most cases, shepherds were recruited from outside the Highlands to manage these flocks, so the entire existing population were displaced, either being removed to crofts on the same estate, going to other land in the Highlands, migrating to the industrial cities of Scotland or, more commonly in later clearances, emigrating.

Different landowners decided to introduce the improvements that required clearance at different times and for different reasons. The common drivers of clearance are as follows:

Economic Improvement

Replacement of the old-style peasant farming with a small number of well-capitalised sheep farmers allowed land to be let at much higher rents. It also had the advantage that there were fewer tenants to collect rent from, so reducing the administrative burden of the estate.

In some areas, land remained in arable use after clearance, but was farmed with more intensive modern methods. Some of the earliest clearances had been to introduce large scale cattle production. Some later clearances replaced agriculture with sporting estates stocked with deer. There are instances of an estate being cleared for sheep in the first instance, and then later being cleared again for deer. The major transition, however, was to pastoral agriculture based on sheep.

The most productive sheep breed was the Cheviot, allowing their owners to pay twice as much rent as if they had stocked with Blackfaces. The Cheviot's disadvantage was that it was less hardy and needed low level land on which to overwinter. This was usually the old arable land of the evicted population - so the choice of sheep breed dictated the totality of clearance in any particular Highland location.

Social Engineering

Some of those carrying out clearances believed that this was for the benefit of those affected. Patrick Sellar, the factor (agent) of the Countess of Sutherland , was descended from a paternal grandfather who had been a cottar in Banffshire and was cleared by an improving landlord. For the Sellars, this initiated a process of upward mobility (Patrick Sellar was a lawyer and a graduate of Edinburgh University) which Sellar took to be a moral tale that demonstrated the benefits to those forced to make a new start after eviction.

The provision of new accommodation for cleared tenants was often part of a planned piece of social engineering - a large example of this was the Sutherland Clearances, in which farming tenants in the interior were moved to crofts in coastal regions. The intent was that the land allotted to them was not enough to provide all of their needs - so they would need to seek employment in industries like fishing, or work as seasonal itinerant farm labourers. The loss of status from tenant farmer to crofter was one of the reasons for the resentment of the clearances. .

The planned acts of social engineering needed investment. This money often originated from fortunes earned outside Scotland, whether the great wealth of Sir James Matheson (the second son of a Sutherland tacksman, who returned from the Far East with a spectacular fortune), the more ordinary profits from Empire of other returning Scots, or English industrialists attracted by lower land values in Scotland. Large amounts of capital were used to start industrial and commercial enterprises or build infrastructure like roads, bridges and harbours - but the return on this capital was very low by contemporary standards. This wasted investment is described by Eric Richards as "a loss to the national economy to be set beside any gains to be tallied."

Some of this expenditure was used to build new towns, such as Bettyhill, which received tenants cleared from Strathnaver. This displacement has been compared to the movement of Glaswegians to Castlemilk in the 1950s - with a similar distance from the original community and a comparable level of overall failure of the project to produce the anticipated social benefits.

In the later stages of the clearances, when population reduction was the primary intention, the actions of landlords can be viewed as the crudest type of social engineering, with a very limited understanding of the likely consequences.

Failure of the Kelp Industry

The kelp trade was badly affected by the end of the Napoleonic Wars in 1815 and had collapsed totally by 1820. Kelp (or seaweed) was harvested from the seashore at low tide, dried and burnt to yield an alkali extract used in the manufacture of soap and glass. It was a very labour intensive industry. Production had steadily grown from the 1730s to a peak level in 1810, with most production located in the Hebrides. The end of war reintroduced competition from Spanish Barilla, a cheaper and richer product. This, combined with the reduction of duty on the foreign import, and the discovery that cheaper alkali could be extracted from common salt, destroyed the seasonal employment of an estimated 25 to 40 thousand crofters. There was little prospect of alternative employment; the only possibility was fishing, which was also in decline at the same time.

The overall population of the Western Isles had grown by 80% between 1755 and 1821. The economic collapse of an industry that was a major employer in a greatly over-populated region had an inevitable result. Not only did the level of poverty increase in the general population, but many landlords, failing to make prompt adjustments to their catastrophic fall in income, descended into debt and bankruptcy.

Famine

The Highlands, as an agriculturally marginal area, was the last part of mainland Britain to remain at risk of famine, with notable instances before the 19th century in 1680, 1688, the 1690s, 1740-1, 1756 and 1782-3. The history of the trade in meal suggests that the region balanced this import with exporting cattle - giving a substantial reliance on trade for survival, to an extent that was greater than elsewhere in anywhere else in Britain.

Crofting communities became more common in the early part of the 19th century. Particularly in the West Highlands and the Isles, the residents of these small agricultural plots were reliant on potatoes for at least 3 quarters of their diet. Until 1750, potatoes had been relatively uncommon in the Highlands. With a crop yield 4 times higher than oats, they became an integral part of crofting. After partial crop failures in 1836 and 1837, a severe outbreak of potato blight arrived in Scotland in 1846. By the end of the year, the north-west Highlands and the Outer Isles had serious food shortages, with an estimated three quarters of the population with nothing to eat.

The Irish potato famine had struck a year earlier, and Ireland's misfortune created a philanthropic awareness that meant that the relief effort could be quickly mobilised for the Highlands before large numbers of people had died. The richer landlords were able to fund their own famine relief for their tenants. Others, though, were bankrupted by buying the necessary food. Conversely, some landlords were criticised for using the voluntarily raised relief funds to avoid supporting their tenants through the crisis.

The Scottish Potato Famine started to ease in the first half of the 1850s - but the years of famine had taken their toll. Beyond the human impact, the financial effect on landlords was overwhelming. Rental income was reduced whilst expenditure rose. With such an obvious disaster in front of them, some sold their estates, others realised they needed a stricter level of management, often leading to clearance. Others went bankrupt.

Landlord Debt

Many Highland landlords had trouble with debts - something described by Richards as a paradox in the late 18th century, in view of the rising commodity prices and the associated farm incomes, so allowing higher rents to be charged. Much of this was due to profligate spending. The landed classes of the Highlands socialised with southern landowners, who had more diverse sources of income, such as mineral royalties and windfall income from urban expansion. The low productivity of Highland lands made this a financial trap for their owners. In other cases, spending on famine relief depleted the financial resources of landowners - so even the prudent and responsible could ultimately be forced to increase the income from their estates. Lastly, investments in an estate, whether on roads, drainage, inclosure or other improvements might not realise the anticipated returns. The major financial pressure, though, was the end of the Napoleonic War, which had supported high prices for the small range of commodities produced in the Highlands.

The extent of indebtedness among Highland landowners was enormous. The evidence of this is the very high number of hereditary lands that were sold, especially in the first half of the 19th century. T M Devine describes this as a "financial suicide" by an entire class of people. Debt was not a new problem for Highland landowners in the 19th century - it had been equally prevalent in the 17th and 18th. The change was in the lender. The further development of the banking system at the beginning of the 19th century meant that landowners did not need to look to family members or neighbours as a source of finance. The downside to this was a greater readiness of the lender to foreclose - and an increased willingness to lend in the first place, perhaps unwisely.

Debt had three possible consequences, all of which were likely to involve the eviction of tenants. The landlord could try and avoid bankruptcy by introducing immediate improvements, putting up rents, clearing tenants to allow higher paying sheep farmers to be installed. Alternatively, the estate could be sold to wipe out the debts. A new owner was highly likely to have plans for improvement which would include clearance. As most purchasers were from outside the highlands or from England, there was no understanding of the gaelic principle of duthchas, so removing a potential level of protection for tenants. Finally, the landlord might enter bankruptcy, with the estate passing into the hands of administrators whose legal obligation was to protect the financial interests of the creditors. This last case was often the worst outcome for tenants.

Overpopulation

The 18th century was a time of population growth. It was almost universal from the 1770s onwards. This was not seen as a problem by landlords as people were considered to be an asset - both to provide a pool for military recruitment and as an economic resource. Landowners' and the government sought to discourage emigration, an attitude that resulted in the Passenger Vessels Act of 1803, which was intended to limit the ability of people to emigrate.

The role of the Highlands in providing a source of recruitment for the army and navy was, in the words of TM Devine, "quite remarkable". Starting in the Seven Years War (1756-63) and increasing during the American War, by the time of the Napoleonic Wars, one estimate put the Highland contribution to regiments of the line, militia, Fencibles and Volunteers at 74,000. This was out of a population of about 300,000. Even allowing for this estimate overstating the case, in time of war, the Highlands was seen as a significant recruiting resource.

The attitude towards increasing population was altered in the first half of the 19th century. First, the kelp trade collapsed in the years immediately following the end of the Napoleonic Wars in 1815. Most of those working in the kelp trade were crofters, with not enough land to make a living. Without alternative employment, which was not available, destitution was inevitable. The landlords (or in some cases the trustees of their bankrupt estates) changed from trying to retain their tenants on their land, either encouraging or assisting emigration, or, in the more desperate circumstances, virtually compelling those in substantial rent arrears to accept an assisted passage, with the alternative of simple eviction.

The potato famine followed shortly after the collapse of the kelp industry. This more widespread problem, and the cost of famine relief, made more landowners alter their thinking on population as an asset.

In the decades following 1815, the ideological and political consensus changed. Surplus population slowly became thought of as a liability; their need to be fed could not be ignored in a philanthropic age. Therefore large-scale expatriation was considered as a solution to the social crisis in the Highlands. The Passenger Vessels Act was repealed in 1827 and in 1841 a Select Committee of the House of Commons concluded that the crofting parishes had a surplus population of 45,000 to 60,000.

Discrimination

The primary motivation for clearance was economic. Associated with this was the suggestion by some theorists that the Celtic population were less hardworking than those of Anglo-Saxon stock (i.e. lowlanders and, in some instances, English), so giving an economic element to a racial theory. James Hunter quotes a contemporary Lowland newspaper: ‘Ethnologically the Celtic race is an inferior one and, attempt to disguise it as we may, there is . . . no getting rid of the great cosmical fact that it is destined to give way . . . before the higher capabilities of the Anglo-Saxon.’ It is not apparent to what extent this had any practical effect on the decision-making of landlords - though Patrick Sellar, the factor employed by the Countess of Sutherland to put her plans into effect, often wrote of his support for these opinions.

Roman Catholics had experienced a sequence of discriminatory laws in the period up to 1708. Whilst English versions of these laws were repealed in 1778, in Scotland this did not happen until 1793. However, religious discrimination is not considered, by some historians, to be a reason for evicting tenants as part of any clearance, and is seen more as a source of voluntary emigration by writers such as Eric Richards. There is one clear (and possibly solitary) case of harassment of Catholics which resulted in eviction by Colin MacDonald of Boisdale (a recent convert to Presbyterianism). This temporarily stalled when the risk of empty farms (and therefore loss of rent) became apparent when voluntary emigration to escape persecution was possible. But in 1771, 36 families did not have their leases renewed (out of some 300 families who were tenants of Boisdale), 11 of these emigrated the next year with financial assistance from the Roman Catholic church.

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Help:Talk pages

Wondered why this site is blacklisted

I noticed that fivebooks.com is on a Wikipedia blacklist. I know not a great deal about this site, but it looks OK to me. How do I find out the reason for the blacklist? ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 18:03, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

@ThoughtIdRetired: It was added to the blacklist in this 2011 edit. The edit summary suggests it was being mis-used by certain editors. -- John of Reading (talk) 18:40, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

Thanks - given my dislike of spammers, I think I have revised my opinion of the site - even though it produces useful results of related books and the possibly unexpected reasons for picking them. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 19:17, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

On reconsideration, now with my brain in gear: the page I looked at was an interview of Prof James Hunter, an expert on Scottish History and particularly the Highland Clearances. Some of the views expressed in the interview are particularly relevant to the modern view of the subject (which needs to be inserted in the article - it's a part of Wikipedia that really needs some work!!). If this is the only source of Prof Hunter expressing these views, how would I get to use the interview as a reference? I have little doubt that the words of an expert in the field qualify the interview as a WP:RS.ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 19:23, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

You can post a request at MediaWiki talk:Spam-whitelist for the specific link to be whitelisted. That would keep the entire domain blacklisted except for that one. --Majora (talk) 19:28, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

referencing discussion

Is there any guidance on Kindle locations (as opposed to page numbers) when citing a reference? At present I just put the Kindle location in where I would put an ordinary page number (example) - that way I can at least sort this out if it needs changing.
ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 21:10, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

• E-books cause some problems because the location may vary depending on the device... location also depends on the font size chosen (and there are other factors which effect location). A more accurate citation would be to give chapter/section and paragraph (which will be the same no matter what device is used, or what font size is chosen, etc). Blueboar (talk) 13:04, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

My understanding was that Kindle locations are approximately based on word count ( the rule of thumb of 23 words to one Kindle location unit) - so that should be reliable for any device. The problem with some authors, and my example of James Hunter is one, is that they write very long chapters that have no or few identifiable breaks within them.

A suggestion might be to have the maximum Kindle location for the book shown as well as the location of the reference. That way one can calculate the percentage through the book that the ref is, and then apply that to the page numbers. So that would mean saying (as in my example above) "Kindle location 5111 of 9196". So that would indicate 56% through the paper version of the book. I suspect this would be a lot more useful than just a chapter number. Counting paragraphs would, I suggest, be error prone with lengthy chapters and equally tedious for anyone checking the reference.
ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 13:45, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

Even word counts can be problematic and subject to different software counting in different ways. And enshrining the word "kindle" is a really bad idea. We might as well use the label "Commodore C64 Word count". I would suggest "starting at character X out of X characters" with the count given by Vim, Emacs or wc (Unix) being preferred if by some unlikely chance different software gives us different counts. This can be easily made into a tool that can be used without leaving Wikipedia. --Guy Macon (talk) 14:47, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

I am not sure that I follow your apparent dislike of Kindle. It is simply a commercially available method of reading a book (digital text plus either dedicated reader or software.) We use other digital sources on commercial platforms (Google Books, British Newspaper Archive, etc.) The only purpose of a page number or a Kindle location is to allow the reader to check what the reference actually says. This is either the Wikipedia editor function of monitoring the quality of an article, or a general reader wanting to know more than the article says. It is simply a way of finding the text. So, surely the intent has to be to find the easiest and most efficient way of doing that. If the Kindle Location were to be disguised as a character count (this would be a lot of work for the citing editor - not sure even if it is possible), then this would be irritating to another person with the same source on Kindle, as they would have to back-calculate the location. (It would be neutral for the paper-book reader.)

I suspect we need some input from someone who knows how definitive Kindle Locations actually are - they seem to be totally repeatable to me.
ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 23:08, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

Note: per WP:SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT if you read the book using a kindle you should say that... however, if you read it on some other type of e-reader (say a nook or a fire) you should note THAT. Which e-reader was used makes a difference, and so needs to be part of the citation. Blueboar (talk) 23:48, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

WP:SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT says "....on an e-reader (except to the extent that this affects page numbering)". So someone has noticed the page numbering problem, but we don't appear to have a good solution. (perhaps there is no "good solution")
ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 10:06, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

Re: "I am not sure that I follow your apparent dislike of Kindle. It is simply a commercially available method of reading a book", would it be acceptable for me to start citing sources using the page numbers from a Telcon Zorba?[5] Because that's about how useful those Kindle page numbers will be 20 years after they stop making Kindles. --Guy Macon (talk) 11:14, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

If YOU read it using a Zorba, yes. That’s what you should say on the citation. Blueboar (talk) 11:38, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

It would only make a difference if there were an edition specially for that platform. I think we'd only want to know which edition is being read and who published it and when. I suppose if there are no other standard indication of location specific to that edition, then you might also want to note location specific to that platform. older ≠ wiser 12:44, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

(1) I've asked Amazon to explain how one might discover the (paper book) page number from a Kindle location and am awaiting an answer.
(2) I've tested my suggestion of calculating the percentage through the book from the Kindle locations and applying to the total pages in a paper book. It does not work if there are references at the end of each chapter in the paper book (so, many academic sources). (It fails because Kindle put all the refs at the end of the book text, but most paper books have them at the end of each chapter.)
(3) The suggestion (above) to quote chapter and (if available) section seems to be as good as we get for a solution.
(4) I think the suggestion that Kindle may be obsolete in 20 years, though likely to be accurate, is irrelevant as it presumes that Wikipedia, book technology, computers etc. will all still exist in the same way as presently - surely it will all change!

So, pending any further guidance or information, I will (a) include the Kindle location (to assist those with the book on Kindle) and (b) include chapter and section (where available).
ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 23:39, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

ThoughtIdRetired, beyond just citing the entire chapter and hoping that this is a sufficient pointer for most readers, one of the usual "solutions" is to provide a quotation that could be searched for by other people with access to digital copies. Another approach, which works for some books, is to see whether you can search a paper copy (e.g., via Google Books) to find the same section, and copy the page numbers and ISBN from the paper version. (Note that with some books, such as textbooks with multiple editions, you have to be very careful to make sure that it's actually the same book/still contains the content that you're referencing.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:44, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

I had wondered about using the quotation field - but the precise solution had not occurred to me. I have just tested it, with good results. I found some relatively distinctive text ("essential to reach the Baltic coast") in a Kindle book (Munro, Ronald Lyell. Above the Battle: An Air Observation Post Pilot at War (Kindle Locations 2603-2604). Pen and Sword. Kindle Edition.) and searched for that in the same book on Google books. I note that if the quote is outside the normal "free sample" offered on Google Books, you still get to see it - certainly enough for a page number. Second test with a different book only gave a fragment, but with a page number.

There does seem to be an automatic reduction of what you see in Google Books if you repeat a search - so this could be a slow process to page number any quantity of references.

My only concern is that this is moderately obscure knowledge (as demonstrated by the time it took for the suggestion to arrive on this page), so would not be readily available to an average encyclopaedia user. It would, however, rescue the original editor and others if the precise location of a reference became a matter of dispute.
ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 21:22, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

On further experimentation- actually putting the ref in an article, I now find that the text can become horribly cluttered. For example this ref does not really work: it gives priority to the Kindle location over the page number and the quote could be irritating with the way it pops up whether it is needed or not.

I think the ref would have to appear as and a Kindle user (including the original editor) would have to search for the quote text. It doesn't feel like a complete solution.
ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 23:57, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

WhatamIdoing - not sure if I should have drawn the above to your attention, or if you are watching this page anyway. You appear to have a particular level of expertise on the subject of referencing.
ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 21:16, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

Hello, ThoughtIdRetired,

There is no good solution for including page numbers/locations across multiple systems. I'm personally not fond of the {{rp}} template. I usually prefer plain WP:PARENthetical citations, or using separate WP:CITESHORT refs. CITESHORT, in particular, might be more appropriate here (because long rp labels are distracting).

More generally, though, I suggest that you consider whether you really need the page number and the Kindle location and the quotation. If including all three is just for your own convenience as an editor, then you might consider using fake parameters (which will be ignored and not shown to readers), which could look something like this: {{rp|155|note=aka Kindle loc 2374; search for "four Austers were to be destroyed"}}. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:28, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

Thanks, that looks like good advice - been a long day, so I'll experiment with your suggestions when I've the time to do the job properly. The note field was something I hadn't spotted.
ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 22:53, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

References

Admin page

Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Another way of refs with different page numbers

Template:Sfn

xx

Strathnaver saw some of the most notorious forced evictions of the Highland clearances

For HC talk page

Problems and a solution. I was recently reading WP:DUE, and I became concerned about the balance of the amount of text on various parts of the subject covered by this article. In order to measure the weight given, I used word counts in the article and also in Eric Richards' book The Highland Clearances (since this is a work to which, I imagine, most active editors hereon will have access). Looking at the article, there are approximately 6,326 words in it as it stands. The section on Discrimination is 757 words long, or 12% of the overall article, and this is split into 330 words on religious discrimination and 426 on pseudo-scientific racism.

Going now to Richards, using Kindle location numbers and the rule of thumb of 23 words to one Kindle location unit, this estimates the book at 211,508 words. Using the Kindle search function, I have found 90 words about religious discrimination (page 81, in the section about voluntary emigration). This is 0.04% of the entire book.

I have searched for discussion of pseudo-scientific racism or anything similar but not found anything in this work. (Please let me know if I have missed anything.)

So, from this, we see that the article has more words on religious discrimination than an entire book on the Highland Clearances. I do not expect the percentage of the article to be the same as the book, but the large difference tells us something. Nor do I suggest that absence of comment by Richards on the racial discrimination against the Gael to suggest that it should not be included. What is needed is to reduce the prominence given in the article, particularly the length of the relevant section. I think the same conclusion would be reached from a wider study of suitable sources.

We also have the following difficulties:
Within the Discrimination section, there is one citation needed and 5 primary sources, 2 of which are used to give direct quotes. This follows on from mentioning a quote by James Hunter (that at least has the advantage that it is derived from a secondary source written by a respected historian working in the subject). Both primary sources and quotes are meant to be avoided, limited or used with care (WP:Primary, WP:LONGQUOTE, WP:quotefarm).

The solution to all the above would appear to be to reduce the size of the Discrimination section. A return to the version of this section that existed on 30 August might be the easiest way to achieve this.ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 19:06, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

Trouble with cite book template

I am trying to understand why the following reference shows the contributing authors in red. The reference is
<ref>{{cite book|author1=Dr. J H Andrews|author2=Major-General R C A Edge CB|author3=Dr. J B Harley|authorlink1=ch. 7,13,20|authorlink2=ch. 27, 31, 34|authorlink3=ch 1, 2, 4, 6|editor1-last=Seymour|editor1-first=W A|editor1-link=ch.|title=A History of the Ordnance Survey|date=1980|publisher=Wm Dawson & Sons, Ltd|location=Folkestone, Kent|isbn=0-7129-0979-6|url=https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/docs/ebooks/history-ordnance-survey.pdf}}</ref>
This was input using the cite book template.
The reference is not complete - I have more contributors to add, but it is tedious typing if I am not sure if I am doing it right!!
Additionally, the template allows me to put in the full title and honours of the contributing authors, but not the editor - whose full title is Colonel W A Seymour OBE. It seems a bit mean not to get his full name correct.
Thanks, ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 08:38, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

@ThoughtIdRetired: The 'authorlink' parameter is for the insertion of a the title of a Wikipedia page where it exists for the author cited. Suggest just cite the authors as normal and place the pages etc. in a 'pages' parameter. Eagleash (talk) 08:44, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

Also, it is not 'typical' to add titles etc. to authors. It is usually done last1='surname'|first1='given name' and so on. Just the basic details will suffice. As long as you have the book details (incl. the page Nos.) it is not necessary to ad who wrote which parts. Eagleash (talk) 08:59, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

I'll echo that: no author or editor titles and honors; names only. If you are citing A History of the Ordnance Survey as a whole, listing all of the various contributors is not necessary; rather, just list the editor. Remember that cs1|2 templates are one-source-per-template only. So, if citing Edge's writing in chapter 27, write a template that includes Edge as author, Seymore as editor, the chapter title in |chapter=, consider using |chapter-url= to deliver the reader to the beginning of the cited chapter, and include all of the other bibliographic information to make the template complete:

{{cite book |last=Edge |first=RCA |editor-last=Seymour |editor-first=WA |chapter=The Retriangulation 1935–1939 |title=A History of the Ordnance Survey |date=1980 |publisher=Wm Dawson & Sons |location=Folkestone, Kent |isbn=0-7129-0979-6 |chapter-url=https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/docs/ebooks/history-ordnance-survey.pdf#page=282}}

Edge, RCA (1980). "The Retriangulation 1935–1939" (PDF). In Seymour, WA (ed.). A History of the Ordnance Survey. Folkestone, Kent: Wm Dawson & Sons. ISBN 0-7129-0979-6.

That pdf is rather large and takes a while to download. If there are individual chapters available, consider linking to them instead.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 10:26, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, all - I think I should be able to get this right now (when I get a chance to get back to it). The pdf used to be much quicker to download - OS have done something to their website. There is always the printed book.

{{plainlist}}

composite construction

fully rigged ship
Ship

15 GRT 970 GRT
917 NRT

|year= |origyear=

Refs on a talk page

I am trying to refer twice to the same reference in different parts of Talk:Highland Clearances (the section on Sellar). I can't get the second reference to Richards, Eric (2013). The Highland Clearances. Edinburgh: Birlinn Limited. ISBN 978 1 78027 165 1. to come up. Not sure what I'm doing wrong. I know I've got this to work before, but I can't remember how. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 17:13, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

Fixed Refnames that contain spaces must be enclosed in quotes. I also changed your {{reflist}} to a {{reflist-talk}}. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:22, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

tables

Sortable and collapsible table

Alphabetic	Numeric	Year	Unsortable
d	20	2008	This
b	8	2004	column
a	6	1954	cannot
c	4.2	1492	be
e	0	1601	sorted.

"Officers of the Army and Navy who are members of Parliament, with their ranks and emoluments". Freeman's Journal and Daily Commercial Advertiser. Dublin, Ireland:  – via British Newspaper Archive (subscription required) . 20 November 20 1833. BC3204516347. {{cite news}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help); Check date values in: |date= (help)

Units of volume

See also: Tonnage

The displacement, essentially the weight, of a ship is traditionally expressed in long tons. To simplify measurement it is determined by measuring the volume, rather than weight, of water displaced, and calculating the weight from the volume and density. For practical purposes the displacement ton (DT) is a unit of volume, 35 cubic feet (0.9911 m³), the approximate volume occupied by one ton of seawater (the actual volume varies with salinity and temperature). It is slightly less than the 224 imperial gallons (1.018 m³) of the water ton (based on distilled water).

One measurement ton or freight ton is equal to 40 cubic feet (1.133 m³), but historically it has had a number of different definitions as explained in the next section. It is sometimes abbreviated as "MTON". The freight ton represents the volume of a truck, train or other freight carrier. In the past it has been used for a cargo ship but the register ton is now preferred. It is correctly abbreviated as "FT" but some users are now using freight ton to represent a weight of 1 tonne (1,000 kg; 2,205 lb), thus the more common abbreviations are now M/T, MT, or MTON (for measurement ton), which still cause it to be confused with the tonne, or even the megatonne.

The register ton is a unit of volume used for the cargo capacity of a ship, defined as 100 cubic feet (2.832 m³). It is often abbreviated RT or GRT for gross registered ton (The former providing confusion with the refrigeration ton). It is known as a tonneau de mer in Belgium, but, in France, a tonneau de mer is 1.44 cubic metres (50.85 cu ft).

The Panama Canal/Universal Measurement System (PC/UMS) is based on net tonnage, modified for Panama Canal billing purposes. PC/UMS is based on a mathematical formula to calculate a vessel's total volume; a PC/UMS net ton is equivalent to 100 cubic feet of capacity.

The water ton is used chiefly in Great Britain, in statistics dealing with petroleum products, and is defined as 224 imperial gallons (35.96 cu ft; 1.018 m³), the volume occupied by 1 long ton (2,240 lb; 1,016 kg) of water under the conditions that define the imperial gallon.

Freight Ton - historical variation

Particularly in the 19th century, the freight ton applied to different volumes of cargo, depending on variables such as: the nature of the cargo, the port in which the cargo was loaded or the nationality of the ship it was carried in. The measure would invariably be described simply as a "ton", so giving further scope for misunderstanding of historical records. Examples of the varying definitions include the following. Sawn timber was measured at 50 cubic feet (1.416 m³) to the ton if sawn or hewn, whilst timber "in the rough" used 40 cubic feet (1.133 m³). Tea loaded by British ships in China used a freight ton of 50 cubic feet (1.416 m³), whilst American ships loaded at 40 cubic feet (1.133 m³) to the ton.

more stuff

User and article stats (XI tools)
User stats (Supercount)

User stats (Supercount)

LOD

the removal of naval mine #mine sweeping

This page is about propellers generally. For propellers on aircraft, see Propeller (aircraft).

---chart upload---

Earthmap1000x500compac

Style proposal

Follows on from "Gender Neutral Article" section (above).

Main page: Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Military_history § Pronouns

This article was originally written with female pronouns ("she", "her") to refer to the ship. This style existed from 21 January 2006 until 19:28, 12 July 2010, when it was altered to the genderless "it" and "its". There was no preceding discussion on the talk page and the edit summary did not mention this change. This would appear to be a straightforward breach of the Manual of Style. It may be of note that the editor involved in this change now cites the relevant rule to defend the current choice of style.

The result of this undiscussed change is that this article no longer follows the style adopted by
(1) other Wikipedia articles on similar subjects, such as ships in Category:Tea clippers (details in extended content), or articles such as Clipper, etc.
(2) the majority of specialist books on similar ships, both newly published and older books
(3) virtually all the historical material on this and similar vessels, including diaries, newspaper reports, Lloyd's Register, etc.

One could give particular emphasis to the usage employed in the diaries written by people who emigrated to Australia on this ship ("she") (see extended content) and the Wikipedia article on the only other surviving clipper Cutty Sark (also using the feminine pronoun). The usage ("she") by the director of the project to restore City of Adelaide in the journal of the Royal Institute of Naval Architects may also have some authority.

I propose that the "ship pronoun style" be changed back to the original style in which this article was written, namely "she" and "her".
Please comment on this proposal. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 23:26, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Extended content

Study of Category:Tea clippers for usage of feminine or neuter pronouns to refer to a ship Entirely “she”/”her”: Ambassador (clipper), Ariel (clipper), Comet (clipper), Cutty Sark, Fiery Cross (clipper), Hallowe'en (clipper), Houqua (clipper), Lahloo (clipper), Leander (clipper), Lord of the Isles (clipper), Lothair (clipper), Memnon (clipper), Mimosa (ship), USS Nightingale (1851), The Great Tea Race of 1866, Sea Serpent (clipper), Sea Witch (1848 barque), Sea Witch (clipper), Serica (clipper), Sir Lancelot (clipper), Stag Hound, Stornoway (clipper), Surprise (clipper), Thermopylae (clipper), Witch of the Wave Mostly “she”/”her” (in each case, one usage of “it”): Challenger (clipper), Lammermuir (1864 clipper) Both usages (1 instance of each): Lammermuir (1856 clipper) No examples of either usage: Robin Hood (clipper) There are no articles in this category that exclusively use the neuter pronoun “it” to refer to a ship. Diaries of people who travelled on City of Adelaide The following use "she"/"her" when referring to a ship, with one instance of "it" in the Nancarrow family diary, which uses "she"/"her" thereafter. The other diaries in the collection have no usage of either type. http://cityofadelaide.org/wiki/Diary_of_Frederick_Bullock (Frederick Bullock a later mayor of Adelaide) http://cityofadelaide.org/wiki/Diary_of_James_McLauchlan http://cityofadelaide.org/wiki/Diary_of_Melville_Miller http://cityofadelaide.org/wiki/Nancarrow_Family

yet more stuff

Screw Steamer

Steamship#Long Distance Commercial Steamships

user:Stan Shebs (talk | contribs) user:Boatman (talk | contribs)

how to refer to a category on a talk page

I want to refer to a category on a talk page. With an ordinary article, I can type in SS Adriatic (1871) and get the desired result. If I put "Category:Tea clippers" in the same squared brackets, it appears right at the bottom of the page, when I would like it in the text in the same way as the link to SS Adriatic works. i.e. you can read the words "Category:Tea clippers" in the sentence in which it is written, but you can click on it to see what is in that category. Is there a way of doing this? Thanks,ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 22:53, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Escape it with a colon before Category. [[:Category:Tea clippers]] → Category:Tea clippers. Works for files as well. --  Gadget850 ^talk 22:55, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

collapsing

The {{collapse top}} template (or {{cot}}), and its paired template {{collapse bottom}} (or {{cob}}), are used for placing a collapse box around a talk page discussion, especially when the content contains complex wikimarkup such as tables. For very simple content, the one-piece template {{collapse}} can be used instead.

So, here goes

Extended content
here is some collapsed text

and then we are back again

You can use Template:Collapse to collapse a section of text which should, I think, suit your needs :) Sam Walton (talk) 23:47, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

You can use {{Hst}} as well

All your data would go in here. — {{U|Technical 13}} ^{(e • t • c)} 00:14, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

City of Adelaide (1864)

As you are a previous editor of City of Adelaide (1864), you may be interested in the Style Proposal on Talk:City of Adelaide (1864)
ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 22:40, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Largest contributions

Hello, I want to see who are the human-users who made the largest contributions to a given wiki article. Is there any way to filter the last versions by number of bytes? thanks. Ben-Natan (talk) 04:19, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Hi Ben. Is this what you're looking for?--A Wild Abigail Appears! _{Capture me. Moves.} 05:18, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

@Ben-Natan: Near the top of the "History" tab is a line of "External tools". The first of these is the "Revision history statistics" tool; part of its output is a chart of the "top editors" to the article by edit count and by text added. -- John of Reading (talk) 06:59, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

random test area

User:Lantzy

oral history, recorded by Imperial War Museum - source selection.

I am beginning to think that some of the oral history that was recorded by the Imperial War Museum would be a useful source for articles such as The March (1945). These are available on-line through the museum's website. Clearly, though, these recordings are primary sources - and it is clear to me that their quality varies (there is one made by Archibald Bentley Beauman who has written a very readable book called "Then a Soldier" which is cited by other historians in their recent works - but, sadly, it seems that when the IWM made its recordings, age had caught up with this old soldier and he had to answer "I don't remember" to many questions.) Using some judgement, especially where several recordings confirm one fact, I would be comfortable with using as a reference.

Two questions:

Is my attitude to these primary sources OK?

How should one cite one of these oral history references?ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 13:16, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

{{Cite interview}}?--ukexpat (talk) 14:26, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

weight

From Jimbo Wales, paraphrased from a September 2003 post on the WikiEN-l mailing list: If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts; If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents; If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Wikipedia regardless of whether it is true or not and regardless of whether you can prove it or not, except perhaps in some ancillary article. Keep in mind that, in determining proper weight, we consider a viewpoint's prevalence in reliabl

xxxxx

(a) I presume that a permissable source for content of a Wikipedia article is a page (of a book) that is on full-time display in a museum. The example I have in mind is the page in the log book of HMS Euryalus (1803) which records Nelson's famous signal: England expects that every man will do his duty. The museum is the Nelson Collection, held at Lloyd's of London, which is accessible to members of the public by arrangement.
(b) If so, what is the correct means of referencing such a source?
ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 20:40, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Nelson's log book would be a primary source, and should be use carefully. Per WP:PRIMARY:

Policy: Unless restricted by another policy, primary sources that have been reputably published may be used in Wikipedia; but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge. For example, an article about a novel may cite passages to describe the plot, but any interpretation needs a secondary source. Do not analyze, evaluate, interpret, or synthesize material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so. Do not base an entire article on primary sources, and be cautious about basing large passages on them. Do not add unsourced material from your personal experience, because that would make Wikipedia a primary source of that material. Use extra caution when handling primary sources about living people; see WP:Biographies of living persons § Avoid misuse of primary sources, which is policy.

As to referencing them, just as any other source of the same format - in this case probably use template:cite book. Rwessel (talk) 20:47, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

OK, not sure if this really is a pure example of a primary source, more of an eyewitness account, as Nelson was on the Victory. Euryalus recorded it as it happened. The piece of information that is relevant to the article is the time of the signal (and the point is that there were several different, but close, times recorded). ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 20:53, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

I should have said "HMS Euryalus' log", not "Nelson's". But it's definitely a primary source, just like any journal would be. But, "HMS Euryalus' log recorded the time of the signal as ..." would be a classic use of a primary source. Rwessel (talk) 21:18, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

This is not a primary source:

Nicolas, Nicholas Harris, ed. (2011) [1846]. The Dispatches and Letters of Vice Admiral Lord Viscount Nelson. Cambridge University Press. p. 144, footnote 5. ISBN 9781108035477.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 21:51, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Brilliant find - it's an exact quote from Euryalus' log - all that's missing is the big ink blot on the page (I guess someone's hand might have been a bit unsteady as they approached the enemy line).ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 23:13, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

reputable sources

There is much guidance in Wikipedia about source selection. Begin with WP:Identifying_reliable_sources; also see WP:Verifiability. How-to information can be found in WP:Citing sources. Consult WP:NPOV if you've not perused it to date; also, be familiar with WP:Copyright. DonFB (talk) 08:04, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

workbook

I believe that User:WyndingHeadland is engaged in disruptive editing on Highland Clearances. The behaviour seems to be getting worse. Most recently we have had:
Diff 1 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Highland_Clearances&diff=806114230&oldid=805281916
Diff 1 makes allegations (in the edit summary) about ignoring consensus, but has actively deleted text that was specifically agreed on the talk page as follows:
Diff 2 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Highland_Clearances/Archive_4&diff=788568313&oldid=778953171
(It is the section on “Proposed deletion of section titled "Religion"” – diffs are lengthy due to archiving.)
Diff 2 includes an agreed piece of text that was incorporated in the article, but later deleted as per Diff 1. It starts with “Roman Catholics had experienced a sequence of discriminatory laws in the period up to 1708…….”. The rest of Diff 2 is a lengthy discussion in which 2 other users brought in ideas that led to User:ThoughtIdRetired changing and developing their opinions – with the result that better content was inserted into the article. This would seem to be a model piece of using consensus to get a better encyclopedia.
The text that was reinserted as per Diff 1 was flagged for deletion as per the following, collectively: Diff 3:
3(a) (This is the main part of the post) https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Highland_Clearances&diff=799946260&oldid=799664221
3(b) https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Highland_Clearances&diff=799946693&oldid=799946260
3(c) https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Highland_Clearances&diff=799964988&oldid=799946693
3(d) https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Highland_Clearances&diff=799965131&oldid=799964988
3(e) https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Highland_Clearances&diff=799965344&oldid=799965203
No answer was received from any users to this proposal. It was left on the talk page for 10 days and then actioned, as per the following (Diff 4):
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Highland_Clearances&diff=801637743&oldid=800856134
This deleted text, with its various problems, was reinstated by User: WyndingHeadland in Diff 1. It is worth noting that 2 “citation neededs” disappeared in that reinstatement, with no talk page discussion or refs provided.
Diff 1 was reverted as per Diff 5:
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Highland_Clearances&diff=806507000&oldid=806506934
An extensive justification of this was provided on the talk page (Diff 6):
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Highland_Clearances&diff=806507623&oldid=805213684
User:WyndingHeadland responded on the talk page with further allegations on the talk page, but no answers to any of the points raised in Diff 6. This is shown in Diff 7:
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Highland_Clearances&diff=806564857&oldid=806510598
User:ThoughtIdRetired answered this with Diff 8:
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Highland_Clearances&diff=806579160&oldid=806564857

Previously we have had other unsubstantiated allegations, for example Diff 9:
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Highland_Clearances&diff=803807512&oldid=803763363
No references are given to support the accusation – there is no detail on exactly what the problem is.
There seem to be no instances when User:WyndingHeadland has cited a reference (beyond copying and pasting other editors' work).
(The fact that Highland Clearances needed (and still needs) substantial improvement received the following support.
Diff 10, search for “Quality/Neutrality” https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Highland_Clearances/Archive_3&diff=715652271&oldid=636831920 )
ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 11:31, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

I have reverted the 21:01, 19 October 2017‎ edit by User: WyndingHeadland for the following reasons.
1) The edit summary misrepresents the position over consensus on the content that has been edited. This subject breaks down into 2 parts:
a) The edit by User: WyndingHeadland has deleted text that was specifically agreed in a talk page discussion. This can be found in the talk page archive 4, that User: WyndingHeadland directs us to in the edit summary. The sequence of events can be summarised as follows:
(i) The discussion was started by User:ThoughtIdRetired on 22:54, 14 June 2017 (UTC) with a proposal to delete the section on Religion.
(ii) There was some conceptual agreement from User: Catrìona on 00:27, 19 June 2017 (UTC), with a suggestion of an alternative approach.
(iii) The point raised in (ii) was agreed by User:ThoughtIdRetired on 00:24, 20 June 2017 (UTC) and expanded into a plan for some additions to the article (which have since been incorporated).
(iv) User: Camerojo then joined the discussion on 05:19, 21 June 2017 (UTC), pointing out the previous talk page correspondence. There were further rounds of discussion on this, with User: ThoughtIdRetired changing their opinion and suggesting a new piece about religious discrimination for the article, to be included as part of a section that discuss the other proximal causes of clearance. A draft of the actual text on religious discrimination was included in the talk page discussion.
(v) There was no further comment from User:Camerojo and User: Catrìona stated “Looks like a nuanced, relevant, concise, and NPOV treatment of the topic. Great work! “on 16:16, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
(vi) The above was taken as a consensus to go ahead with the changes discussed. These were carried out on 23:04, 9 July 2017, a full week after the endorsement by User: Catrìona mentioned in (v). This delay allowed anyone else who so wished to contribute.
(vii) To sum up: there was a proposal which was modified by discussion, a piece of text was proposed and supported, there was no active opposition to this text, it was inserted into the article, together with the other text that was discussed at the same time. The edit by User: WyndingHeadland on 21:01, 19 October 2017‎ has therefore deleted text that was agreed by a consensus reached after discussion.
b) User:ThoughtIdRetired raised (on the talk page) what was perceived as a problem of balance (WP:DUE) in the article on 19:06, 10 September 2017 (UTC).
(i) The suggested solution was to delete some of the older text on discrimination and religion, leaving the newly written material to handle the subject. This dealt with a number of problems with the older text. There were no comments on this proposal, so, 10 days later (23:15 on 20 September 2017), the proposals were put into place.
(ii) On 19:25, 4 October 2017 (UTC), User: WyndingHeadland made some accusations about inappropriate editing. Among other discussion, the sequence of events (as summarised immediately above) was explained to User: WyndingHeadland – in short, the plans had been posted on the talk page, and there had been 10 days in which comments could have been made.
(iii) There was no answer to this from User: WyndingHeadland, until, on 21:01, 19 October 2017, when the user made the edits under discussion: deleting agreed text and adding previously deleted material whose deletion had been carefully justified. User: WyndingHeadland made no justification for this edit, beyond an edit summary that, as demonstrated above, is, in the most favourable interpretation, misleading.
(iv) So, in summary, User: WyndingHeadland has ignored the logical reasons given for deleting the old text on religion and has gone ahead and made an edit without contributing to any discussion on the point.

2) The replacement text in the 21:01, 19 October 2017 edit by User: WyndingHeadland has numerous deficiencies, both on its own and in comparison to the text deleted in the same edit.
a) The deficiencies of the replacement text, from a stand-alone view point are substantial – but a summary of the more obvious points is as follows:
(i) In the version of this text that existed on 21:18, 18 December 2016, the first sentence of the section headed “Religion” had a “citation needed” tag. This has been deleted by the 03:47, 16 September 2017 version, but without the issue being resolved, either on the talk page or with an appropriate reference.
(ii) In the 03:47, 16 September 2017 version, there is a further “citation needed” tag in the penultimate paragraph of the section. This does not appear in the version inserted on 21:01, 19 October 2017, though the issue remains unresolved.
(iii) The statement (para 3 of section) “…religious discrimination is not considered, by some historians, to be a reason for evicting tenants as part of any clearance” is not supported by the reference, since the reference is written by two human rights lawyers in a book canvassing for a change in international law (that would give them more work). The key point is that the book is not written by historians, so does not support “…considered by some historians…”.
(iv) Para 3’s last sentence is widely disagreed with by modern historians (and the cited reference is the book by the human rights lawyers, who as non-historians, are a questionable reference according to WP:HSC).
(v) Para 4 (“Nevertheless, anti-Catholic sentiment…..”) is not supported by the first two references given.
The first is referring to emigration rather than clearance (and note the definition used in the article – in fact. if you read further in the source that provides that definition – Watson and Allan – it specifically states “Areas could also become empty by net, non-enforced emigration, with or without pressure from landowners to leave, but it would be confusing to refer to this as clearance.”)
The second reference (“Toiling in the vale of tears”) actually is a misquote of the third!! It talks about voluntary emigration, citing our third reference as its source, but does not correctly convey the content therein.
(vi) The last paragraph quotes Richards, but does not make totally clear that he is referring to those who choose to emigrate, not those who are evicted (or “cleared” in the terminology of the subject). I accept that we have the pending task of discussing “voluntary” emigration within the article – it is a problem to convey all the shades of grey between someone thinking there is a better life overseas and a person for whom emigration is the last resort as no realistic option is left for them in their home country. That does not take away from the fact that this last paragraph is misleading.
b) The comparative points between the two bodies of text that were swapped in the edit of 21:01, 19 October 2017 are shown below. For clarity, the “deleted text” is the version that existed before this edit and which was agreed on the talk page on 16:16, 2 July 2017 (UTC). The “replacement text” is that which was added in this edit.
The deleted text provides much more information on the events discussed in the reference “Cargoes of Hope and Despair”: it mentions that the landlord was a recent convert to Presbyterianism; it explains how a potential loss of rent stalled the process; it gives the numbers of families evicted out of the total tenant population and says how many emigrated and where they got the money to do so. None of these points are made clear in the replacement text. The source “Cargoes of Hope and Despair” is used as a reference, but the content is largely ignored.

(3) To come back to the point about consensus, archive 3 of the talk page includes the following: "Quality/Neutrality This article seems to present a partisan point of view, founded perhaps in one of the cited sources (Prebble) whose work on this subject is generally discredited by serious historians. I think an extensive audit of neutrality is needed, together with an injection of some new sources. Am I alone in thinking this? ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 23:17, 9 March 2015 (UTC) No argument here. Please see the extensive arguments in Archives 2.--SabreBD (talk) 00:27, 10 March 2015 (UTC) Yes another informed pair of eyes on this article would be welcomed. Camerojo (talk) 21:40, 10 March 2015 (UTC) Indeed. Richard Keatinge (talk) 10:28, 11 March 2015 (UTC)" I think this is a good demonstration of a consensus that the article had/has deficiencies, which are currently being addressed by successive rounds of editing. User:WyndingHeadland appears to ignore talk page content such as this, taking what appears to be a completely contrary understanding.

Throughout all the interactions with User: WyndingHeadland, it is hard to point to any situation where the user has employed specific references to support their position. It is actually quite hard to find anything that supports the idea that the user has even read any of the references concerned.
There has also been an unpleasant thread of accusation of bad editing practices; and it is hard to discern any logical argument to support these accusations. It is very difficult to avoid the slow adoption of the idea that User: WyndingHeadland is engaged in disruptive editing (WP:DISRUPT). Answering the various allegations takes a lot of time that would be much better spent on dealing with the many problems with this article.

ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 13:35, 22 October 2017 (UTC)