Talk:Albert Kesselring

How many vehicles?

"...40,000 men, but also 96,605 vehicles..." Each man would have had to drive more than 2 vehicles! Wouldn't the number be something like 10,000? Still impressive. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.122.34.10 (talk) 10:23, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

• Well spotted.

		The Minor Barnstar
		Award yourself a copy editing barnstar Hawkeye7 (talk) 11:00, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Aaagh. It was vandalism. Hawkeye7 (talk) 20:23, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Excellent article

I suppose some might object to a Nazi military leader being portrayed as having so many good qualities. But for me, reading about Kesselring's life is a reminder of how sad it is that the state has sucked so many of the most talented individuals into careers where they serve as the enemies of human rights rather than the friends of it. There are many highly competent people of this type who, in Thoreau's words, "as most legislators, politicians, lawyers, ministers, and office-holders, serve the state chiefly with their heads; and, as they rarely make any moral distinctions, they are as likely to serve the devil, without intending it, as God." Most people just seem to go with the flow and, if they are inclined to work in the field of government or the military, will do so, regardless of the ethics of the political leadership. Tisane (talk) 11:52, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

His adoptive son

I just read through this article because it was featured and noticed something. The name of his adoptive son is given as "Ranier" which would be a really unusual name. Could this possibly be a typo and meant to be "Rainer" instead (which is a much more common name)? The German wikipedia does not mention the adoptive son's name so I could not verify that. Any thoughts? --Feuerrabe (talk) 23:10, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

• Typo. Corrected. Hawkeye7 (talk) 09:37, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Archived discussion

Where is the archived discussion? Did someone delete it? TwoBitSpecialist 17:39, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

• Look at the box at the top of the page that says "This is the talk page for discussing improvements..." yada yada. Down the bottom of that box, it says: "Archives: 1" Click on the "1". Hawkeye7 (talk) 19:58, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Kesselring's book

Sorry for my english. There are two Kesselring's books in "Bibliography": Gedanken zum Zweiten Weltkrieg and A Soldier's Record. But most of the references indicates Kesselring's book The Memoirs of Field Marshal Kesselring. This is it?--Totalserg (talk) 17:04, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it is the same book. They changed the title for the 1988 edition, which has a preface by Kenneth Macksey. Hawkeye7 (talk) 20:02, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Albert Kesselring Add "Popular Culture References similar to Rommel#In_popular_culture

Keenly interested in the "Culture Refereences to military leaders whether Genneral Joseph Stilwell in the film 1941 (film) or Albert Kesselring in the film Which Way to the Front?.

Would like to sart an Albert Kesslering in Popular Culture section with this information

Kesselring and Kesselring's double were portrayed by Jerry Lewis in the 1970 movie "Which Way to the Front?." This film focused in a fictional manner Kesselring's command tenure in Italy. While Kesselring has been prortrayed in seconadry roles by second string actors in movies such as "Anzio" and the "Battle of Britain", the movie "Which Way to the Front?" is the only known movie to have Kesselring portrayed by someone in a leading and staring role.

ProSanta0001 (talk) 19:57, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

As I and Hawkeye have said in edit summaries on the main article, anything in a Featured Article requires reliable sources, which YouTube and IMDB weren't last time I looked. I realise many famous people have pop culture sections in their articles, but they're not universally approved of by the community, certainly not when at FA-Class like this one. In any case, if we were to include portrayals of Kesselring in pop culture, I think the focus should be on serious ones like in Battle of Britain, even it wasn't by a major star. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 11:22, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

German language ranks

This is a good article but it typically uses ranks in German with the occasional English translation. Since these ranks are not in common English usage (like Gestapo or Luftwaffe) and also the English equivalents are not intuitive (i.e. generallmajor translates to brigadier and generalleutnant translates to major general) I am proposing to Anglicize the ranks (with appropriate translation and links at first instance of the word). This will make the article more understandable and easier to read for the non-specialist reader. I also think it is more in line with MOS:FOREIGN. I'll leave it for a day or two to see if anyone has a problem with this. Stephen Kirrage ^{talk - contribs} 23:58, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

I have several problems with it. First of all, the article is not a good article, it is a featured article, and has been through the FAC process. The article has appeared on the front page and has been subjected to extensive review. Changes should not be made without a broad consensus. Secondly, your translation is poor; generallmajor was definitely not the same as brigadier and Comparative officer ranks of World War II. This was all discussed before. If people want to know, then they can click on the links, and it will be explained in detail. Hawkeye7 (talk) 02:18, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Hawkeye, I accept your arguments about peer review. However, may I make the following points:

1) May I refer you to Comparative officer ranks of World War II? This clearly states that generalleutnant is equivalent to major general and generalmajor is equivalent to brigadier general even if literal translation of the words might suggest otherwise (and is confirmed in the equivalent article in the German language Wikipedia). Indeed, in this article itself (In the "Between the wars" section) the text reads "Generalmajor" (brigadier-general), "Generalleutnant (major-general)" and "General der Flieger (air lieutenant-general)" so there's nothing "poor" with my translation.

2) FAs are not set in stone. The box on the talk page clearly states that "Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so". There is a long history of GAs and FAs being improved (or downgraded) as Wikipedia standards are raised over time.

3)My suggestion was that having an article peppered with foreign language ranks is confusing to the non-expert english language native speaker and is contrary to MOS:FOREIGN which states that "Foreign words should be used sparingly". My proposal to rectify this was therefore to anglicize all the ranks using the British English equivalents (rather than literal translations of the words). This would reverse the current situation: instead of having say "Generalmajor (brigadier-general)" on the first instance of the rank and then using "Generalmajor" on all subsequent instances, we would have "Brigadier-General (Generalmajor" at the first instance and then "Brigadier-General" on subsequent instances. This makes it more understandable to the general reader and follows a well established convention often used in English language books (for instance Dear and Foot's "Oxford Companion to World War II" always uses the English equivalent).

4)Clearly, if there is a consensus established contrary to this proposal I would accept it (which is why I opened this section on the talk page in the first place). I would be most interested to see any previous discussions surrounding this ("This was all discussed before").

Thanks for your input. Stephen Kirrage ^{talk - contribs} 10:53, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

1. ) This is not the same thing. Moreover, the "equivalence" is very misleading. In the UK, a brigadier commanded a brigade an a major general a division; in the US Army, a colonel commanded a regiment (the equivalent of a British brigade), a brigadier general was deputy division commander (something they did not have in the British or German armies) and a major general commanded a division; in the German Army an oberst (colonel) commanded a regiment while a generalmajor commanded a division.
2. ) This would not be an improvement. We would sacrifice accuracy and get nothing in return.
3. ) No, that is terrible. Instead of one foreign rank that readers may not understand, you now have two. For the readers in my country are wholly unfamiliar with the foreign rank of brigadier general.
4. ) I am following the US and Australian official histories in using German ranks for the Germans. The consensus that we have was reached during the FAC. I was not entirely happy; I would have used the German ranks only. I had to read two books in German to write the article; the readers can learn a few words while reading. They are here to learn after all.

Hawkeye7 (talk) 11:46, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

No, honestly, don't hold back, tell us what you really think!! Maybe I'm misreading Antipodean directness for rudeness but rather than assert what rubbish my proposal is (WP:OWN?), wouldn't it be more polite and productive to direct me to where the debate took place that established the current consensus - I have already said I would accept an established consensus? The only evidence of a debate I can find is this exchange in the FAC:

I am going to apply WP:Bold here and change all instances of lieutenant colonel and above to the german corresponding rank. I previously changed all field marshal ranks in German field marshals articles to generalfeldmarschall Gsmgm (talk) 10:14, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
Good! I'm quite happy with that. There was a bit of debate earlier as to whether using German would make the article harder for the general reade to follow. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:53, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Frankly, it was a friendly proposal which I thought had merit but was prepared to be persuaded, I didn't expect a "Daddy knows best" response. Who needs aggro? There's plenty of other things to do in Wikipedia, so I'm off to do just that. G'bye.
P.S. Don't bother responding to this, it's just too wearing.
P.P.S. Your assertion as to what rank commands what unit/formation is overly dogmatic; there are endless exceptions (because the German army at the time, unlike Commonwealth armies, did not as a rule assign acting ranks in line with postings, the officer normally carried his substantive rank (although inevitably there were exceptions here too): for instance looking at the OOB of Army Group C in 1943, all the Corps commanders were General der .... and about half the divisional commanders were generalleutnant and half generalmajor.
Stephen Kirrage ^{talk - contribs} 18:35, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Couple of observations

This article has just been mentioned indirectly on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history‎, so I thought I'd have a read. Interesting life. However, two things spring to mind. One is note 4, which apparently caps off a paragraph and is apparently used as a reference. Surely direct reference to the contents of The National Archives' holdings, unsupported by secondary sources, is original research?

The second point is the very last sentence of the article: "To his ageing troops, Kesselring remained a commander to be commemorated." This to my mind implies that all of Kesselring's surviving soldiers-in-arms commemorate him, rather than a number of veterans representing but two veterans' groups. It strikes me as cloyingly sentimental, and entirely the wrong note to end an otherwise excellent article. FWIW. —Simon Harley (Talk | Library). 16:03, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

No, primary sources are acceptable so long as they are only being used for facts. As for the second point, the implication is correct; the reference for Kesselring extends beyond just two groups. Von Lingen: "As far as Kesselring's surviving troops are concerned—and thanks partly to British intervention—their former commander's reputation remains unsullied." Hawkeye7 (talk) 20:55, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Numbers of prisoners in Tunisia

If you do a check yourself at Wikipedia, you will see that my information makes the article more complete. The Albert Kesselring information in WW2 is reffering to all theaters and not only to 1943. Stalingrad for example takes place in 1942 and 1943, so we can make the comparision between an even bigger disaster like Operation Bagration is (see Wikipedia page) in 1944. Point is that your vision (Hawkeye) is to narrow. For sources, I provide gladly the next sources in which you will see that your view is incomplete, you mention the Ruhr Pocket that also comes second to Bagration in numbers of prisoners. At Sandhurst, Beevor thought us to compare and use our sources (of course not Wikipedia because of matters like these).

When you compare Stalingrad in an article about the colapse in Tunesia, you also should speak about the biggest defeat, it makes no sense to speak about the one that comes second (Stalingrad). Or, you don't compare at all, an incomplete comparision makes no sense. It is the one or the other.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Bagration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad — Preceding unsigned comment added by History and skiwatch (talk • contribs) 06:29, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

It was only supposed to mean that it would have looked like a greater disaster if it were not overshadowed by Stalingrad, which occurred around the same time. The source does not refer to 1944 or 45 at all. So I have removed the reference to Stalingrad to avoid giving the impression that either was the second biggest disaster. Say hi to Anthony for me. Hawkeye7 (talk) 06:46, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Third-party sources needed

The article contains 17 citations to the subject's memoirs, including peacock language such as "greatly increased" and "succeeded". I will tag the article accordingly. K.e.coffman (talk) 23:55, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

The article has passed FAC. I will remove. Provide sources yourself. Hawkeye7 (talk) 05:21, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

I will have a look for something on the German logistics. Hawkeye7 (talk) 05:29, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

The problem of Kesselring's birthday

I have seen several acceptably reliable sources including Zabecki ed. (2014) and Whitlock (2009) state that Kesselring was born on 20 November 1885. Meanwhile, the article here shows that his real birthdate was 30 November. As there are two different given birthdates and both confirmed by reliable sources, can we make it clear that the date 30 November is more correct than 20 November? Personally I think he belonged to the Sagittarius sign because of his optimistic appearance, but it needs to be checked.222.255.197.66 (talk) 13:29, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

It has been."Some references erroneously give his birth date as 20 November. However, Kesselring testified under oath that it was 30 November 1885, the date in his Army personnel file." Hawkeye7 (talk) 19:16, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

So how did the previous editors of the article get information from his Army personnel file, especially his birthdate? I have read the book of Macksey, but here he did not indicate that the birthdate was taken from Kesselring's Army personnel file at all.222.255.195.92 (talk) 04:11, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

Kirsten von Lingen obtained it, and I was in contact with her. I also found it in the Nuremberg transcripts. I can't remember whose book got it wrong; it may have been Macksey. Hawkeye7 (talk) 09:53, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for that information! However, while I coud not find Kesselring's birthday in Lingen's book Kesselring's Last Battle, the book of Macksey which is being used as citation for Notes 2 of this article did not show his Army personnel file at all. Therefore, how can we add citation or evidence in order to strengthen the points shown in Notes 2?222.255.193.65 (talk) 12:53, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

Pro-Nazi article!

The article is an apology for Kesselring and the Nazi War Machine, based on biased sources, and insufficient analysis. The whole thing of "British Military Common Law" is unheard of in jurisprudence, and the claim of illegality of the British trial is unfounded. Creuzbourg (talk) 15:34, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Hardly. Do you have a reliable source for your assertion that the trials were on a solid legal basis? We can add it to the article, Hawkeye7 (talk) 23:13, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

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Featured article review

This article frankly does not meet the 2018 standards for FAs. As K.e.coffman pointed out above, the non-neutral language ("one of Nazi Germany's most skilful commanders") in the lede, and excessive citations from Kesselring's memoirs are unacceptable for a FA. I would put this up for featured article review myself, but I already have two articles under review. If the issues are not addressed, I'll be back to nominate this article later when the reviews I'm involved in finish up. Of course, if anyone else would like to nominate it for FAR, I would be happy to advise. Catrìona (talk) 13:24, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Other Generalfeldmarschalls

Who where the other Generalfeldmarschalls who published their memoirs? Shouldn't a note be made of these? Skjoldbro (talk) 09:03, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

If you'd aske3d on Quiz Night I would have said Keitel and Manstein without blinking. Now we'll have to dig up a source. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 10:34, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

"dangerous situation"

I modified the sentence here: [1], as it was making it sound that Kesselring was personally in danger, or that the German troops were in a "dangerous situation" which sounds a bit odd in a time of war. --K.e.coffman (talk) 05:31, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

FTR, I certainly read it as the latter, and I don't think it sounds that odd in context, but it is somewhat editorialising so I have no objection to its removal as further detail appears in the following sentence. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 22:43, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Feb 2019 edit

Preserving here by providing this link; my rationale was: "C/e; ol; rm pov material from the subject's memoirs and undue praise; mv nicknames out of the lead as not discussed in the body". --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:27, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

@Hawkeye7: I already did, while "Reverted - take it to the talk page" is insufficiently specific. What changes do you object to? --K.e.coffman (talk) 02:52, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

Tweaking the wording is not acceptable. The wording has been carefully reviewed, and your proposed changes do not provide improvement. Changing infobox military person to infobox criminal is naked POV-pushing and is unacceptable. Removing the nicknames, which are sourced, is further POV-pushing. Important quotations and links were removed. Your proposed changes are rejected. Seek consensus for any changes you propose. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:03, 2 February 2019 (UTC)