Talk:Martha Graham

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"Dances" vs. "choreographic work"?

Can someone verify for me what this statement means?

Some critics say that even though there is little physical record of her dances, they are more memorable than her choreographic work.

Does this mean to say that there is little physical record of Martha Graham herself performing? Dancemaster 07:50, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree that the sentence needs editing. The core problem is the use of "Some critics say", close to examples given as "weasel words" in Wikipedia's composition standards. The statement is almost certainly true (and could have a legitimate reference, with input of effort), but the total effect of the sentence is to devalue a body of (lifetime) choreography that few question as masterful. Even with the citation, it would be contrary to the larger body of opinions. It would be more useful to examine the question of her choreography in her declining years, and to what extent may have been glossed by Protas and others. Stagehand 17:48, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

For a majority of her life Graham resisted the recording of her dances and would not allow them to be filmed. She believed the performances should exist only live on the stage and in no other form. At one point she even burned volumes of her diaries and notes to prevent them from being seen. There were a few notable exceptions, such as when she worked on a limited basis with still photograhers (Imogen Cunningham in the 1930's and Barbara Morgan in the 1940's). In later years her thinking on the matter evolved and others convinced her to let them recreate some of what was lost.

Graham started her career at an age that was considered late for a dancer. And when her body finally gave up on her in the late 1950's and early 60's she left the stage at a point some say was long overdue. Those who had the privilege of seeing her perform in her prime have attested to ger precision, form and mesmerizing brilliance as a dancer on stage. Though she is arguably one of the most important choreographers in the history of dance (and one of the most important artists of the 20th Century) she always said that she perferred to be known and remembered as a dancer. Cjboffoli 17:43, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Dancers' names

I almost regret adding some living but notable dancers' names. I changed the headings of these sections because of the addition of "Lyfe Genes", which I suspect was vandalism. I suggest that this can be avoided by adding only the names of *former* members of the company, i.e. those who are no longer dancing.Stagehand 15:05, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

The reason I added Later Former Dancers is that using citable quotations (by a famous dance scholar, in the Early Dancers section) to get a list of dancers' names a)Obeys Wikipedia guidelines about content b)Avoids charges that I listed "favorites of mine" or people I might know. I was trying to section off the list of names that did not have "citability". Stagehand 17:39, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I guess I have to propose deleting this section that I added because it continues to attract vandalism. I'll check, but I suspect that "Danielle Lawson" is vandalism. Stagehand 19:14, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

List of dances

The dance list is woefully incomplete, and misses all of her earlier works (20s and 30s). There is a complete list at http://marthagraham.org/resources/sub_chronology.php. It is obviously far too long for an article, and I don't know enough about Graham's dances to intelligently pare it down to a more essential and illustrative listing of her work. Could someone more versed in her works take this on? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dennis1200 (talk • contribs) 12:41, 8 February 2007 (UTC).

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was move the page from Martha Graham (dancer) to Martha Graham, and place a specific dablink at the top of the page to deal with links for the supercentenarian. It seems clear from the link-related evidence presented that the primary topic for this title is the dancer. Dekimasuよ! 05:59, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

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I'd like to move this page back to Martha Graham. The supercentenarian of the same name currently has 7 articles linking to her, compared to the several hundred linking to Martha Graham (dancer). We would of course put a link to the supercentenarian at the top of the page. Gareth E Kegg 21:59, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

• Please do. I imagine most people who are even aware of the other Martha Graham get their awareness as I did: from being forced through the disambig page to get to here. Mangoe 12:51, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

• Disagree - keeping the generic name as a disambiguation page seems a perfectly sensible thing to do. - fchd 20:59, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

• Comment - Moving the article is a sensible thing to do if you read the above rationale. Gareth E Kegg 12:35, 24 May 2007 (UTC).
  • Comment - sorry I disagree. I don't think the number of wikipedia articles is at all relevant, but the editor who did the move should adjust the internal links to go to the qualified article name, rather than the disambiguation page. - fchd 16:35, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment - I feel my main point still stands, that most people are looking for the dancer, rather than the old woman. Should we ask User:Bart Versieck to redirect all the pages? Gareth E Kegg 16:55, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

• Disagree strongly. I agree with "Richard Rundle" on this particular matter though. Extremely sexy 18:20, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

• Absolutely support; four of the links to the centennarian are through the fairly artificial succession boxes, one through the dab. We are forcing a double-click on everybody who wants the dancer, and everyone who wants the centennarian, except the handful who want the latter and arrive through our navigation structures. They won't be hurt by the change, and nearly everyone else will be helped. . Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:10, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
• Comment Why would you oppose the move with a link to the supercentenarian at the top of the page? The basic fact still stands, that all bar seven pages link to the dancer, with notability being granted only on basis of age, not life and work. Gareth E Kegg 19:12, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

• Strong Support Ewlyahoocom 06:39, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. You already went ahead, which doesn't mean I disapprove of your actions, but the voting deadline isn't reached yet, or is it: explain? Extremely sexy 09:05, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

I'd just finished fixing up the redirect and adding the dablink when I found this move request. I support moving this page back to its original location at the main entry. Ewlyahoocom 19:29, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Needs citation

"Dr. Graham often brought his wife strawberries in the winter at a time when they were very hard to come by. The Graham children were looked after by a live-in Irish maid. They were a proper family at the upper echelon of Pittsburgh society." 76.178.147.102 14:27, 28 May 2007 (UTC) Adrienne

Adrienne: these items come from Agnes DeMille's book "Martha" published by Random House in 1991. Cjboffoli 17:47, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

When I can find some more time I plan to continue to flesh out this entry with information on: further development of her dances, her collaboration with pianist Louis Horst, the failure of her marriage with Erick Hawkins, her reaction to an invitation from the Nazi Party for her company to perform at the 1936 Olympics in Berlin, her aversion to having her work recorded, mid-Century collaborations with Alexander Calder and Isamu Noguchi, her work teaching movment to film actors including Woody Allen, descent into alcoholism in response to the physical limitations from advancing age, her near-death and recovery from alcohol addiction and the renaisssance of her later years, her presence as a late 1970's and early 80's New York celebrity (sometime Studio 54 guest, socializing with Halston, Liza Minelli, Andy Warhol, Madonna, etc.), the growing influence of her assistant Ron Protas, her death and the Federal lawsuit over the rights to her dances, the recreation of her works, and the revival of the Martha Graham Center for Contemporary Dance.

If there is anything I've left out or something anyone else would like to have illuminated, please let me know. Thanks so much to all of the great editors here who have helped to clean up and organize this entry. Your work is much appreciated. Cjboffoli 18:06, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

A previous poster had incorrectly listed Graham's final performance in May 1968 when she was 74. On page 238 of her autobiography Graham herself cites her final performance in Cortege of Eagles, in 1970. Cjboffoli 18:37, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

May I suggest that a more appropriate observation might have been "While a previous editor provided a fully-cited report from a major Graham scholar that her final performance ..., that scholar is incorrect. On page 238..." It seems to me that the autobiography reference belongs in the article, not here in the discussion. But if De Mille (my reference) can be wrong, Graham herself (like any autobiographer) can be wrong. A quick look at The New York Times supports the 1970-Graham date much more than the 1968-De Mille date, but that single newspaper is not conclusive. Indeed, they quote Martha as telling an audience at the 1970 Brooklyn season that she hoped to appear onstage the following year! In fact, it's impossible to "prove" any negative event with a single citation, isn't it? Stagehand 00:01, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Stagehand: I was writing for brevity. I didn't mean to offend you or suggest your addition was careless. There clearly is a discrepancy. Graham was meticulous in her record keeping and had no obvious reason to obfuscate. You're right in suggesting that any of the sources can be wrong: De Mille, the NYT, or even Graham. All things considered I'd be inclned to give precedence to the words of the artist herself. But I've found yet another source which lists a different date. I'll amend the article to reflect the differences. Cjboffoli 13:58, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Clarity across articles

By looking at the wik/en Hawkins, wik/en Graham, wik/de Hawkins, and wik/de Graham articles, one gets really different pictures. It's not that I saw specific contradictions, but what is emphasized and what's left out are so different it is a bit bewildering. One issue in particular is Graham's alcoholism: in the German Wik on Hawkins, that is one of two reasons given for his leaving her; in the German Wik on Graham, Hawkins is not even mentioned; in the English Wik on Graham, alcohol problems seem to appear after the divorce; in the English Wik (which, it is true, I partly wrote, using obits), there is no mention of alcohol. Can some-one work to bring all these articles more into line with each other adn what actually happened? Kdammers (talk) 06:08, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I may have time to do something here. If there is no mention of Hawkins on the German Wikipedia that is a problem I can't fix, since ny German is limited to a few, very few words.It is a problem though for sure. (olive (talk) 15:03, 13 June 2008 (UTC))

If you get the wik/en articles clear, I can try to co-ordinate the German ones. Right now, the German MG article still does not mention Hawkins, whereas the EH article says that in 1938 he was the first (male?: German is ambiguous here) dancer in her SoCD; that she fell in love with the much yuonger Hawkins and

lived with him for 8 yrs before they married in 1948; and that the marriage failed shortly thereafter due to her alcohol consumption (I guess a euphemism for drunkenness/alcoholism)and her hysteric collapses. I have no idea how accurate this is or what the source is.Kdammers (talk) 05:59, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Innapropriate line

"and is widely considered one of the greatest artists of the 20th century" unless someone can give me some backing for that I am going to pull it (or change it to reference specifically dance). Seems a little over the top. -Hellkyte —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.7.123.51 (talk) 14:05, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't pull it. Its a true statement and I 'll see if I can find a source. Anyone in the dance field would likely concur with this. She is and was considered the "Mother" of modern dance and is a huge figure in the history of dance. .... I'll see if I can find something tonight or tomorrow. Thanks (olive (talk) 22:02, 19 June 2008 (UTC))

I can't speak for the quality of the following, but here is support for the assertion: http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/47790.Martha_Graham; www.ballet.co.uk/dcforum/happening/6550.html; www.observer.com/node/46031?observer_most_read_tabs_tab=2 ; www.bookrags.com/Martha_Graham; www.jgames.co.uk/title/Martha_Graham : www.amazon.com/gp/richpub/syltguides/fullview/R2NHXUAQTOHLF