User talk:Senra

John Speed

I'm sorry, I don't have anything by John Speed, it would be well beyond my means. Nor do I have access to any such maps. Maproom (talk) 23:03, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Fair enough --Senra (Talk) 23:10, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Would this be the map you are looking for?. As it was made c. 1676 it is reasonable to assume the artist has been dead for more than 100 years.— Rod ^talk 17:18, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Indeed it is the one I was looking for. I would not pay £110 for it—original though it may be—when a copy is available (unframed) from Cambridge University Library (Ely plan is top right-hand corner of Huntingdonshire map) for only £30 or even better, the free out-of-copyright scan of a non-derivative version from a modern book --Senra (Talk) 18:22, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

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Ely

It's about the value to the reader in the lead. The lead is supposed to provide a short summary, and I didn't think it was particularly helpful in this regard – areas like that are not easily quantified by the reader and it seems like a less relevant detail. If the lead has to get shorter, which it does, then that seemed a sensible thing to skip. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 17:11, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Fair enough. Much appreciated --Senra (Talk) 17:49, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Feel free to revert. On my screen, 30em produces a single column. I'm not sure whether or not that is the intention, but that is the result. BTW, I've left a pointer to a source of images on the article's talk page. Mjroots (talk) 17:13, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

I hate reverting :( and whilst I do do it when necessary I prefer to discuss. As a matter of interest, what is the horizontal resolution of your device monitor? The one I am currently sat it is 1366 pixels which renders 30em in three columns though I also use an iPad which renders 30em in two columns --Senra (Talk) 18:33, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

I've reverted. Not sure about this monitor as am not on my own computer atm. Mjroots (talk) 19:07, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Much appreciated. As a matter of interest, I ran a little experiment and discovered that {{reflist|colwidth=30em}} renders one column up to 1024 pix, two up to 1280 and three above 1280 --Senra (Talk) 00:21, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Adelaide Curve now has an opening date! The book used has further details of railways round Ely, but it's going to take me a while to soak up the info. Ning-ning (talk) 22:20, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Nice comment

I'm glad to see someone other than me is watching it :) Geometry guy 00:11, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

I thought I might have gone too far but for me at least, the comment worked on so many levels --Senra (Talk) 00:26, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Can you wait to see how it will turn out? Geometry guy 00:33, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Meetup

Cambridge 13 is a week today (m:Meetup/Cambridge/13). Hope to see you there. (BTW do your interests stretch to Wisbech?) Charles Matthews (talk) 13:51, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

I will try and make the meetup. Wisbech in Northeast Cambridgeshire is 21 miles (34 km) north-northwest of Ely in East Cambridgeshire, the article I am helping with now. If you have a specific query shoot. If I can help in anyway, shoot --Senra (Talk) 16:00, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

I have been working today on Wisbech Stirs. But Wisbech Castle might be more your kind of thing. There seems to be quite a bit of mystery as to what the castle there was from the 1480s onwards for 300 years (brick, stone, ground plan etc.). Charles Matthews (talk) 21:14, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

"Wisbech is one of the most attractive towns of East Anglia"—Pevsner (1977)[1954] p 494. ibid. p. 497—Did you know that George Gilbert Scott designed the 1881 Clarkson Memorial just before his death? ibid. p. 502—The castle, west of the church, was built 1072. John Thurloe built a mansion, in the style of Thorney Abbey, on the site of the castle c. 1658. In 1663, Samuel Pepys said it was "a fine house" but still, it was demolished in 1816. For the castle, see also CHER record and Historic England. "Wisbech Castle (354806)". Research records (formerly PastScape). Retrieved 26 November 2011. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |access-date= (help) --Senra (Talk) 21:48, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

I also have Edward Miller's The Abbey & Bishopric of Ely: The Social History of an Ecclesiastical Estate from the tenth century to the early fourteenth century - Cambridge UP, 1951 (reprinted 1969) (resulting from Ealdgyth#Ely Cambridgeshire) which has four entries in the index on Wisbech Castle AND in Savage (2002) pp. 48–49 we read that in 656, Wulfhere, son of Penda granted lands including Wisbech to St Peter's Monastery (Medeshamstede?) --Senra (Talk) 22:28, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

There is also a lot about Wisbech Castle in Hampson, Ethel M; Atkinson, T D (1967) [1967], "Wisbech Hundred: Wisbech: Castle", in Pugh, Ralph B (ed.), The Victoria History of the Counties of England: A history of Cambridge and the Isle of Ely, vol. Vol. IV, London: for The University of London Institute of Historical Research by the Oxford University Press, pp. 351–354 {{citation}}: |volume= has extra text (help) and also Recusants in the castle, Wisbech and the civil war and Later history of the castle --Senra (Talk) 17:52, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Almoravid dynasty

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• EdwardsBot (talk) 07:34, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Ely

After a very swift pass, it looks to me as if calling the "liberty of Ely" a county palatine was a misnomer hallowed by tradition: see the start of the VCH page. It was a "franchise", something probably confirmed by Henry I, the lawyers apparently agreed: [1] is William Blackstone; and Edward Coke in the VCH would be considered authoritative. Bentham [2] gives lists of the chief justices, and then bailiffs, who were local appointees up to, I think, William IV: what is said in Isle of Ely apparently checks out. The main practical effect after Henry VIII would have been that Ely wasn't on any of the circuits of judges. There is something more complicated before that, no doubt. Charles Matthews (talk) 18:57, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Very complicated. See for example Ely and Littleport riots 1816 where Edward Christian, the bishop's appointed judge, was unhappy at Lord Sidmouth's oyer and terminer appointed judges for the trial. Back to the Isle of Ely as a palatine ...

• Miller (1969 reprint)[1951] (see article bibliography) p. 27 "It should be noted in passing [discussing Conqueror's writ] that these liberties were to be enjoyed generally throughout the abbey's lands. No distinction was made between the liberty within and without the hundreds of the church of Ely; no peculiarity was asserted at that time for what afterwards became the special liberty of the Isle of Ely which was 'in divers statutes called a county palatine'" and ibid. p. 200 Miller says "Finally, at one point only, in the Isle of Ely, there was yet another storey: a complex of privileges which may almost justify Coke's description of the Isle as a county palatine, ..."—ibid. p. 200 note 1 "Institutes of the Laws of England, IV V. 39: 'In divers statutes it is called the County Palatine of Ely.' There are certainly, a few references to the county palatine of Ely after the end of the Middle Ages: in a legal record concerned with a customary tenant in the Isle in Edward VI's reign preserved by Bentham, and in the King's Lynn Assembly Book, s.a 1610: CLU Add. 2962, f. 7; Hist. MSS. Commission, 11th Report, Appx. III, pp. 151, 177" and then he finishes with "... a description which would imply that the bishop's power and authority within the Isle was kinglike"—ibid. p. 200 note 2 Coke, Institute of the Laws of England, IV c. 36

... so perhaps Edward Miller changed his mind in VCH (1953) vol. IV chapt. 1 Liberty of Ely? I have no idea, so feel free to add or subtract anything you like --Senra (Talk) 21:41, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

I have left a note User talk:Ironholds#Liberty of Ely for the editor who self-describes as the only specialist in English legal history. Charles Matthews (talk) 11:45, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Much appreciated and it was good to see you yesterday --Senra (Talk) 11:48, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

@Charles: (the following may appear ungrateful or at best a little picky but as I am preparing for GAN then FAC I tend to get a little itchy so I apologise up-front) Your recent edits introduced the phrase "... but legal authorities such as Sir Edward Coke did not completely endorse the form of words" which remains (incorrectly?) attributed to the OED definition of the word palatine. I have briefly searched Miller (1969) and Miller in VCH (1953) and cannot reliably attribute Coke's lack of endorsement. Do you have a suitable citation for this assertion? --Senra (Talk) 13:47, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Does this, from VCH (1953) vol. IV p. 28, clear or muddy the waters?

• "Ely never acquired the status of an incorporated borough. Since the Local Government Act of 1894 the city, with its environs, has been governed by an Urban District Council. The College Precincts formed an extra-parochial entity until 1933 and since then have been a separate civil parish though under the control of the Urban District Council. Only on one occasion, in 1295, did the city elect its own parliamentary representatives"

--Senra (Talk) 14:20, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

GLAM project page view

GLAM related. At the Cambridge Wikipedia meetup 13 today, User:Magnus Manske (~Magnus) showed me one of his toolserver tool that provides a monthly "Page views of pages containing files from <Category:X Museum>"—BaGLAMa such as the nearly 34 million page views to the British Museum in October 2011. Magic! Just writing to myself here to record the tool for my future use --Senra (Talk) 22:05, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Hi

Just to say I hadn't clocked when I saw you at the meetup yesterday that you were the the guy who created the Ely and Littleport riots 1816. Great page :) Dsp13 (talk) 09:33, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. It was good to meet you too although we didn't speak much :) As I said to Charles recently, I tend to focus on settlements in my immediate area so a small number of in depth studies are my thing. I did spot you recently on an article I help maintain. I have not yet mentioned the Ely museum in the Ely article I am working on although I do mention St Mary's vicarage, which is now the Cromwell museum. I will perhaps see you at the (was it) Kipple museum workshop? --Senra (Talk) 10:40, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Premature to say any workshop's happening atm - but it would be nice if it does. Whipple museum :) I should think Ely museum is at least worth a stub - I'll give it a go, perhaps, as a prelude to visiting it with the kids! Dsp13 (talk) 12:25, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

I have just completed a couple of paragraphs on the Ely museum within Ely, Cambridgeshire. A search of the Cambridgeshire County Library Catalogue returns eight titles to the query "Ely Gaol" ;) Feel free to create Ely museum (not of course to be confused with Ely State Prison :) --Senra (Talk) 12:59, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Sleuth21

Hi Senra, I just saw a puzzling exchange of 'ANI' or 'AN' (or whatever) messages. It appears I can't edit or add any text there so I just quickly write this note to assure you that no offence was taken and of course no apologies are necessary, but I appreciate your offer. I would be happy if you mentioned this on the inaccessible ANI (or whatever) WP site.

I would have commented on your message as well but I thought I should wait until my direct e-mail (on his request) to NewYorkBrad would be answered and (what I thought) is WP Head Office would respond to my friend's email (I think he wrote to 'errant'). I should mention that my friend is devastated by having his scholarly work of thirty years splashed all over WP without as much as a 'by your leave'.

So, please continue to contribute to WP! (sleuth21) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sleuth21 (talk • contribs) 19:23, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, much appreciated. I have copied the above to the noticeboard --Senra (Talk) 19:59, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

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• EdwardsBot (talk) 19:30, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Ely GAC

Hi, and thanks for your note. I hope you will forgive if I wait a couple of days before I start the review, as I will be quite busy the next few days. The article looks really good at first glance though! Lampman (talk) 20:34, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Ely railway station- was it built in 1845 or 1847? The source I used in the station article says 1845, but I wouldn't be surprised if this was an error. Ning-ning (talk) 08:08, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Pevsner (1977) p. 381 says "RAILWAY STATION. 1847 ..." which will be discussing the building itself. Clearly the Cambridge to Ely section was opened in 1845 and there must have been a station of sorts built for that line opening. I recall reading a new article dated 1846 where the railway board agrees expansion of the station in early 1846. The Illustrated London News shows 1847 for the opening of the Lynn & Ely railway. I will change the prose to make it clear I mean the building, not the station --Senra (Talk) 09:09, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Ha! My memory never ceases to amaze me. I am at the library and I found a note about the station in transcripts of the Ely Chronicle for January 10 1846. See Talk:Ely,_Cambridgeshire#Notes from Ely Chronicle --Senra (Talk) 10:42, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

According to Butt (1995), p. 91, Ely railway station was opened by the Eastern Counties Railway (ECR) on 30 July 1845. Dates in that book are typically the date of the first scheduled passenger train, which might not be the same as the formal ribbon-cutting ceremony, and may be significantly different from the completion date. Indeed, we find that in Allen, Cecil J. (1956) [1955]. The Great Eastern Railway (2nd ed.). Hampton Court: Ian Allan. p. 13. that the formal opening of the ECR line between Newport and Brandon (and of two routes which connected end-on) was 29 July 1845, and on p.14 of the same book "public traffic began over the whole length of the Shoreditch-Cambridge-Ely-Norwich line on July 30th, 1845.". --Redrose64 (talk) 16:55, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. There was minor confusion because Pevsner (1977) described Ely Station as built in 1847. We now know from the Ely Chronicle 10 January 1846 that Pevsner's station (opened on 25 October 1847 to coincide with the completion of the Ely-->King's Lynn line) was an extension of the temporary station opened on 30 July 1845 (to coincide with the opening of the Cambridge-->Ely line) that you describe above. Brilliant! --Senra (Talk) 17:10, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Ely edits

Hi Senra, I've replied to your concerns on my talk page. If you don't agree with any of my reasoning please feel free to revert the edit concerned - I won't object. Richerman (talk) 23:57, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

"Online discussion supports critical thought by facilitating an adaptive exchange of ideas" (apparently). Indeed, we have been discussing and reaching agreement! --Senra (Talk) 12:03, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Having just read through the whole article again and made a few minor tweaks it seems to me that there's a bit of a gap in the Economy section. What do people who live in Ely do now? Is there a significant tourist trade? Do residents mostly work within the city, or do they commute to Cambridge for instance? There's a similar problem with Demography, but there it's even more striking; what's the profile of today's residents of Ely? Malleus Fatuorum 21:12, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Wow...

... I am impressed. Have we ever talked before? Thank you. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 11:56, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

er, no? You work (with obvious passion) in a topic area which I will never have any interest in. I can still offer an opinion on format and style. However, as a relatively new editor, take my views at face value please --Senra (Talk) 12:00, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes sure, but you are good. Nevertheless, if i have to be totally honest, there are some of your points which i did not find correct. For example, in a music article, attributions are primordial to avoid {{by who}} templates in your work. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 12:05, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. I am not saying do not attribute. Perhaps take a step back from the article and consider if you are using too many quotations. In a case such as I highlight, you could reduce the in-line attribution clutter by weaving the quote into your own prose whilst ensuring that the reference clearly attributes the quote to a [profession +] person. A brief count of the number of quotations present in the good article Thriller reveals about six. Compare this with yours :) --Senra (Talk) 12:38, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Totally agree with by weaving the quote into your own prose whilst ensuring that the reference clearly attributes the quote. Thanks. I am going to do that at my level best. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 12:41, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Hmm, you have a point. I will surely consider that. By the way, can we be Wiki-friends? Jivesh1205 (Talk) 13:46, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Not sure what a wiki-friend is as I don't have any. I tend to work on my own articles and help others when needed or if asked. You are welcome to post on my user page here if you require help. Your user page is now on my watch-list. I will jump in if I see you in difficulties. Good luck with your articles --Senra (Talk) 14:08, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Lol... It means a friend who you will only meet on Wikipedia and not in real life. Happy to know you have my user page/talk on your watch-list. See you later. Take care and happy editing. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 14:15, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

My mistake

... as i just read in the MoS that the hyphen may be used in British English. But I got my come-uppance - I went through correcting them all and when I went to save, ran into an edit conflict which was you using a script to do the same thing. Next time I'll read the MoS first :) Richerman (talk) 23:40, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

:) --Senra (Talk) 23:55, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Mass killings under Communist regimes

Responding to RFCs

Remember that RFCs are part of Dispute Resolution and at times may take place in a heated environment. Please take a look at the relevant RFC page before responding and be sure that you are willing and able to enter that environment and contribute to making the discussion a calm and productive one focussed on the content issue at hand. See also Wikipedia:Requests for comment#Suggestions for responding.

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Talk:Mass killings under Communist regimes. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! However, please note that your input will carry no greater weight than anyone else's: remember that an RFC aims to reach a reasoned consensus position, and is not a vote. In support of that, your contribution should focus on thoughtful evaluation of the issues and available evidence, and provide further relevant evidence if possible.

You have received this notice because your name is on Wikipedia:Feedback request service. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from that page. RFC bot (talk) 21:15, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

This bot is not working (IMHO) because this is the second aged RfC I have been sent to. In this 22 day old RfC, the last comment was five days ago --Senra (Talk) 21:49, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) Bots typically don't watch the pages that they amend, so it's unlikely that the bot's operator will notice your comment. You'll probably only attract their attention if you post to the bot's talk page - User talk:RFC bot - which is a redirect to User talk:Chris G. --Redrose64 (talk) 22:46, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

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• EdwardsBot (talk) 18:39, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

GA mentor

Just responding to this comment. I am willing to help out if you are still interested. There is also a mentor page where you can request someone to be your mentor. If you have a FA you should have no problem with GA's. You don't have to choose a topic within your comfort zone, as long as you have a reasonable grasp of English and are willing to check reference, images etc any topic should be doable. AIRcorn (talk) 02:08, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for responding. I eventually found the mentor page and have now posted a request to Tomtomn00 (talk · contribs) on their talk page. Do you mind if I wait for TomTomn00's response before accepting, or otherwise, your offer? --Senra (Talk) 11:03, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Although well intentioned I am not sure Tomtom00 would make a great mentor. He is a relatively new editor and does not have much experience with the GA process from my two brief (non) interactions with him (Talk:Gimingham/GA1 and Talk: Steve Jobs). From that list Jezhotwells (talk · contribs) is probably the best candidate, lots of reviews, very active. AIRcorn (talk) 22:07, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Ely

Thanks for the barnstar, not that I deserve it though. My input was relatively minor compared to the work you and others put in. Congratulations on the GA, FA next? Mjroots (talk) 04:10, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Just noticed. Congrats! Nice job.  Chzz  ►  12:29, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes, congratulations and thanks for the barnstar. Richerman (talk) 22:55, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

You are all very welcome. Article is back under review and yes, FA is the long term goal. @Mjroots: all input intermeshes informatively in incredible improvements --Senra (Talk) 21:44, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Reculver

Hello Senra! Just to let you know, if you're about, that I'm currently working on a lot of quick fixes, including ones reflecting comments on MF's talk page. I'll be in touch when I'm about to do a GAN, which'll probably be later today. Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 14:26, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Sure. I will be home from 21:00 UTC --Senra (Talk) 14:36, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

That sounds like good timing, supposing something doesn't crop up here IRL! Nortonius (talk) 14:52, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Hi Senra, I'm ready to nominate, I'm thinking I'll put {{subst:GAN|subtopic=Places}} on Talk:Reculver when you're ready? Let me know and I'll do that. Cheers. p.s. As it happens a friend has called by, so after nominating I may not be available again until later, or possibly not until tomorrow, but I'm sure I'll be around by lunchtime. Speak later! Nortonius (talk) 21:12, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Go ahead then relax. It may take a day or so until I can release the review though I will start the review immediately --Senra (Talk) 21:15, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Cool, 'tis done! Ok, in your own time! Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 21:24, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

I have completed my review. I am now waiting for my mentor, Aircorn (talk · contribs), to verify a few things then I will publish. As Geometry guy (talk · contribs) and Malleus Fatuorum (talk · contribs) both pointed out at Talk:Malleus, everything is debatable, so do feel free to disagree (whilst trying "not to be argumentative though" :) --Senra (Talk) 12:47, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Oh, that was quick, well done! Sounds interesting, too...! Don't worry, while there's plenty of stuff in the article that I was pretty chuffed to find and bung in, there are also quite a few areas where I think viability for WP might be quite weak (or even non-existent!), but I've put them in there as best I can, and really I'm waiting to see if anyone (er, you for example!) objects to them, or I can find an RS. Looking forward to seeing how all that matches up with your review! Incidentally, I've been compiling a list of a few bits and bobs to add (one in particular is an RS about Reculver "moving"), but I've held off adding them: I know a reasonable amount of ongoing, constructive editing isn't supposed to be a problem for GA, but I didn't want to add stress to your review. Would you mind if I had a go at them now? I'm not sure how much I could get done, as lo and behold another friend is visiting town and is staying over tonight. Anyway, let me know, and thanks. Nortonius (talk) 13:04, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Go ahead. I have reviewed against a static version, so make as many changes as you wish --Senra (Talk) 13:08, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Yep good plan, will do! Nortonius (talk) 13:13, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Just realised my mentor is a Kiwi and thus is in a different time-zone (+13) --Senra (Talk) 00:04, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Ah no problem, I suppose it just means things'll move a bit slower, but thanks for letting me know! Ok, I've done pretty much all I can find at the mo, and I'll be off to bed shortly, speak soon then. Nortonius (talk) 00:24, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

I have published the review of Reculver as Aircorn (talk · contribs) seems busy. I am sure if I have anything badly wrong they will say so. I hope you find the review useful and do ask me if you have any questions --Senra (Talk) 09:10, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Great, thanks - looks like a very thorough review, you've obviously worked hard at it, much appreciated! Understood about Aircorn. From what I've seen elsewhere, I'll put any comments, suggested changes etc. as indented responses beneath each point in the review? Let me know if you have a better idea. And, thanks for saying you "have no deadline" - as you say, most of the points should be very easy to fix, but some aspects will need some thought to bring them up to scratch.

• Unless the reviewer specifies it, you are at liberty to make your responses in whatever way you feel comfortable with. I tend to prefer the same as you with the added strike reviewers comments if you feel you have answered his/her queries such as here. It is, however, up to you --Senra (Talk) 15:08, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Ok, I'll do as I suggested. Nortonius (talk) 16:05, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Speaking of which, there are couple of things I'd like to ask about now:

• The "legends" were already in the article when I first tinkered with it, and I've put quite a bit of effort into researching them (as you do, maybe naively in this instance!), so what was initially "newbie" reluctance to delete someone else's work has, I'm sure, developed into some bias here; but both legends relate directly to known, encyclopedic aspects of Reculver, whether locally or e.g. in the field of archaeology, and are backed by RS, with supporting citations. I think they're encyclopedic to that extent, and obviously I would be sorry to see them go - noting that you've annotated this section of the review as "Optional though likely Criteria 2", do you think the legends might be more viable in the "Culture" section you've suggested, given mention of "local customs or traditions" here?

• I am no expert here. I marked it [Optional] as I was unsure and as a result, it is not part of the review. My own opinion is that we need to be careful about giving prominence to things which are clearly not notable and might not in fact be true. By notable here, I accept such legends are locally notable but nationally or internationally? I too try to maintain and if possible improve on editors previous work, but sometimes, you just have to be bold. If you want guidance, keep the legends prose as a sub-section of culture though be prepared to lose it entirely if you go to FA --Senra (Talk) 15:08, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Understood - we don't want to start reading like a credulous 18th century magazine... I'm ready for it being deleted should it come to that, but I'll put it on the back burner for now, other than if I move it to a "Culture" section for the time being, in which case I'll mark that in the review. Nortonius (talk) 16:05, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

• Cary's New itinerary is new to me (as you've presumably guessed!), and Google's scan of it looks to me to be terrible, cutting off text, including page numbers (as far as I can see), and they've made a real hash of scanning the maps - it looks like they're folded maps in the original, and they haven't bothered to scan them fully...? Anyway - there is no mention of Reculver, or nearby Herne and Herne Bay; the nearest place I can find in the book is Sturry (about 6.2 miles (10 km) south-west of Reculver), which is annotated "Swan"; and, by sheer good fortune, Reculver is shown on the relevant map, but with no roads running to it at all. The Sturry article is thought-provoking for Reculver in more ways than one, but mention there of Sturry being a "stage coach point for Herne and Herne Bay" until the 1860s is unsourced, and there is no mention of the Swan Inn. I have found the Swan Inn mentioned here, but not in the terms needed, and anyway that source doesn't look to be RS. It does usefully point to Pigot's National & Commercial Directory 1832-1834, but this doesn't seem to be online, either there (despite the "link") or via Google. Any thoughts on how to resolve that bit of the GA review? Thanks again. Nortonius (talk) 14:31, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

• I marked this as [Criteria 3] broad in its coverage because I felt such information was missing. Personally, I would consider mentioning the Herne Bay coaching stop (from London I assume) attributed to Sturry. To be honest, if you placed all of the above as your response to the review, I would accept it. To be clear, if you did that then made no further changes to the article (on the basis of this point) it would be accepted as it shows you have looked for information and found none supported by reliable sources --Senra (Talk) 15:08, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with you about the Herne Bay coaching stop, it is worth a mention, but with no RS...? Hmm, I'm tempted to respond the review as you say, but not just because it's the easiest way out. (see below!) Nortonius (talk) 16:05, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Oops. My mistake. Sturry is a place not a person; I must learn to read. Cary's new Itinerary is RS for the The Swan Inn, Sturry, 6.2 miles (10 km) from Reculver and (according to Cary) ¹⁄₈^th mile short of 58 miles (93 km) from London Bridge, citing either a page number and/or one of his maps --Senra (Talk) 12:41, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

• You said above "... but this doesn't seem to be online, either there (despite the "link") or via Google" which leads me to caution FUTON bias which I know you are very well aware of :) --Senra (Talk) 15:13, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes indeed! "Accessibility is not a criterion for RS", etc. Only thing is, my personal situation is that the only library to which I have physical access is my own(!), and if something's not online, my preferred recourse is to buy it - I've done a lot of that, but my mind boggles at the idea of buying a copy of Cary's or Pigot's! I'll see if I can get something via Wikipedia:WikiProject Resource Exchange, or whatever. Don't worry though, I was only asking for thoughts. :) Nortonius (talk) 16:05, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Oh my goodness. Don't buy anything. John Cary was surveyor to the Postmaster General. Maproom Maproom (talk · contribs) contains some scans of out of copyright maps that may interest you, such as Cary's New Itinerary. Nothing to do with the review, but travel writers may also be of interest such as one or two of those mentioned in the post-medieval decline section of Ely#history --Senra (Talk) 16:09, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the tips - a "Cary" scan does show Reculver (but not Herne Bay), again with no roads at all, and it looks like none of the travel writers mentioned re Ely went near Reculver! Hey ho. Nortonius (talk) 16:58, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Oh dear - a "friend in need" has asked me to copyedit a submission for them IRL, deadline tomorrow evening! Damn and blast, it looks like I'll be AWOL for a bit. Nortonius (talk) 17:58, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Not a problem at all. No deadline remember --Senra (Talk) 18:02, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes, thanks for reminding me of that! But - I was just in the middle of - oh never mind...! :) Nortonius (talk) 18:14, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

I am so sorry. I had a last minute deadline appear as well as the usual post holiday/pre christmas rush. Everything appears to be under control here, but if either of you have any questions let me know. I will have a bit of time free in the next few days and plenty between the 26th and New Years. AIRcorn (talk) 19:35, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Not a problem. These things happen. Welcome back and yes, when you have time, please do confirm that I have not over or under-stepped the mark --Senra (talk) 19:46, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Your review is excellent. I like the way you have given required and optional advice and I can not fault any of your suggestions. The only two points I can think of are the seven day window and watching the review. It is basically up to you how long you give the nominator to fix problems and while seven days is reasonable it is just a suggestion (reading above I think you might have realised that, it was just that you mentioned it in your review). I would also recommend watching the review. Partly because, as happened here, other editors can come along and leave comments and partly because they can sometimes be forgotten about. I have found it uselful to be pinged on my watchlist when I have a few reviews going, not an issue now I know but hopefully you stick around. I disagree with Chzz about the referencing, but ultimately it will be your decision on whether to insist on that or not. AIRcorn (talk) 20:33, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you very much for the above. Your comments mean a great deal; they give myself and I am certain the significant editor Nortonius, confidence that between the three of us (plus the odd drive-by (not that I am in any way calling Chzz odd :)) the article will be improved. Just for clarity, I have already stated that Chzz's point labelled A is part of the GA review under [Criteria 2a]. Your support however is comforting and very welcome. Thank you once again --Senra (talk) 20:49, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

On your two other points: I have started watching the review and I now understand more clearly the reason for the GAN notice {{subst:GANotice |result=hold |article=Reculver}}. It is not used for reviews like this one, where the nominator is active, but what appear to be called drive-by nominations where the nominator has no intention of taking part in the review—from here, "Articles can be nominated by anyone"! Hence, my statement still stands --Senra (talk) 21:19, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Regarding point A, I don't believe there is a requirement for the citation to be at the end of the paragraph. I could be wrong, there are a lot of guidelines out there. In the example given "Others are on display in Dover Castle and in the Spitfire & Hurricane Memorial Museum at the former RAF Manston, on the Isle of Thanet" I don't think there would be any confusion about what reference should be supporting that information. Same with the other example. In the end if it only involves moving a few references around it is not hard to fix. However, one thing we should try not to do is change the nominators style, especially if there is no clear consensus about what style is correct. It can be difficult and making "suggestions" is perfectly acceptable, I would just advise against using that to fail an article. AIRcorn (talk) 21:50, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Fair enough. Your point is valid and very clear. Therefore, if it comes to pass or fail the article on this one point (Chzz's point A [Criteria 2a]) then I assure you, based on your comment above, the article will not fail. However, in order to avoid introducing confusion for the nominator part way through the process, point A remains as per my statement --Senra (talk) 22:20, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

That sounds like a good plan. You are doing a great job. AIRcorn (talk) 22:47, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

resource request

Hi Senra,

I've uploaded the article you requested at the resource exchange in November "A medieval and post-medieval street frontage: Investigations at Forehill, Ely" You can find a link to the file at the resource exchange. Best, GabrielF (talk) 23:27, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Hi...

... Still remember me? Hey can you please help me convert the quotes in the controversies section in "Halo" to original prose? Jivesh1205 (Talk) 12:48, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Indeed I remember you, though I had to search around for "Halo" :) I am afraid such a conversion is way beyond my skills; at best it requires some familiarity with the sources and at worst it demands an intimate knowledge of this singer, her song and the industry surrounding her. My attempt at reading the existing prose leads me to conclude (wrongly?) that there are two controversies:

1. According to Simon Cowell, the writers (Bogart, Tedder, and Knowles) originally intended the song for Leona Lewis. One of the writers, Tedder, in an interview with David Balls, admitted the song was offered to Lewis when Knowles took too long to record it
2. Kelly Clarkson accused Tedder of using the same musical arrangement on "Already Gone", a song he wrote for her, that he had used on "Halo", though Tedder denied this

The above is not a conversion, just my attempt at a brief summary, probably wrong, which may help you convert it yourself. Incidentally, the issue I have with the current prose is that you are mixing block quotes with in-line quotes; you need to consistently use one or the other. The WP:MOS says "Format a long quote (more than about 40 words or a few hundred characters, or consisting of more than one paragraph, regardless of length) as a block quotation". In your prose, Tedder's second quote (in-line) is 108 words long and Clarkson's second quote (in-line) is 50 words long. I would also question balance, as you seem to be quoting Tedder twice and Clarkson twice with no quotes from Cowell, Knowles, Bogart, RCA, Lewis or Balls. Have you quoted too much in this one section? I find that hard to judge. Of the 582 words in the section, 386 are direct quotations.

I hope that the above is helpful to you.

--Senra (Talk) 13:46, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

There are indeed two controversies. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 15:38, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

WP:Cambridge

Wikiproject Cambridge is now part of Wikipedia:WikiProject East Anglia. Wilbysuffolk Talk to me 21:12, 19 December 2011 (UTC)