Talk:World War II casualties of Poland

Soviet numbers need added attention

One of the sources, as claimed in the article, just provide a number and never how those numbers were derived. There are a lot of anti soviet/russia groups whose jobs are to vilify. Only claims that can show their work should be included. -G — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.44.121.233 (talk) 23:17, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Pictures Needed

I do not know how to cut and paste Wikimedia photos to a page. Please add some photos and graphics.--Woogie10w (talk) 20:53, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Useful wiki content

See World_War_II_casualties#endnote_Poland for some related content. Surprisingly, pl wiki does not have an article on this. It has a poorer quality entry on German occupation casualties only, at pl:Ofiary represji Niemiec nazistowskich w Polsce (1939-1945). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 18:02, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

I will be adding a lot more to article, I have to read Polish sources, which takes time. Stay tuned.--Woogie10w (talk) 18:45, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

For the time being my work has been accomplished--Woogie10w (talk) 02:29, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Allies' military campaign of 1944—45 to liberate Poland

The statement "Allies' military campaign of 1944—45 to liberate Poland" misinforms:

• The only Allies active in Poland were the Soviets and Poles themselves, both Communist Army and underground.
• The goal of the Red Army wasn't any liberation, but capture of Berlin and Soviet occupation of Eastern and Central Europe.

Xx236 (talk) 06:58, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Those are the words of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum , we cannot change them. Do you have a reliable source that disagrees with this description? Also, In 1944-45 for the Jews in Poland and in the camps the Red Army were in fact liberators, that is the point of the Holocaust Memorial Museum--Woogie10w (talk) 11:22, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

We aren't obliged to quote unprecize statements, too. Let American cultural imperialist learn history and geography of Europe before they start to preach. Does Bloodlands inform about liberation of Poland? 48% of Polish territory was annexed to Soviet Union and Poles were expelled or deported to Siberia, non-Polish nationalists were persecuted.

• It's rather obvious who fought in Poland, no US, British or French troops were observed there.
• Poland wasn't liberated, because Red Army and NKVD committed mass crimes here. They were supported by many Poles but it wasn't a Civil war. Rape during the liberation of Poland discusses one aspect of the liberation, the name of the article is like The police rapes liberated hostges. Xx236 (talk) 06:59, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
• If one Ally fights (massacres) other Ally, are they both still Allies? Is a bloody Ally more important because he is stronger than the small Ally?
• Nazis evacuted the majority of camps inmates, later liberated and filmed by US Army.
• Soviets refurbished Nazi camps, eg. Buchenwald and Sachsenhausen. Xx236 (talk) 07:18, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Do you have a reliable source that we can cite that backs up your remarks? The bottom line is that in the English speaking world the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum is considered a reliable source.--Woogie10w (talk) 08:01, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

• Northern Group of Forces.Xx236 (talk) 08:15, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately some of the quoted sources aren't available, see http://books.google.pl/books?vid=ISBN0801432871&id=z_Z_nJnzTp4C&pg=PA155&lpg=PA155&dq=Soviet+looting+Poland&sig=lN7Yzdbz856u9rg-CnpaWShL28I&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Soviet%20looting%20Poland&f=false Xx236 (talk) 08:27, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

A little different subject - a summary by Timothy Snyder.Xx236 (talk) 08:34, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

civilians were strafed from the air with machine gun fire in what became known as a terror bombing campaign - strange phrase, either strafting or bombing.Xx236 (talk) 07:01, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

The Institute of National Remembrance uses the term Bezośrednie straty wojenne--Woogie10w (talk) 09:57, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

I mean the specific phrase, which is absurd, like apples which became known as oranges.Xx236 (talk) 06:22, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

The title Murdered in Prisons and Camps is incorrect, many mass executions took place outside prizons and camps, eg. Mass murders in Piaśnica, see also pl:Kategoria:Zbrodnie oddziałów SS i policji niemieckiej - Egzekucje..., Zbrodnia..., pl:Kategoria:Egzekucje pierścienia warszawskiego. Psychiatric patients were executed, see Action T4. Peasants were murdered during pacifications of villages. The English article is a stub, the Polish one much longer. Xx236 (talk) 07:06, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

I agree--Woogie10w (talk) 09:57, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Forced Labor in Germany - łapanka was used in the cities, forced workers were recruited in town and cities by German or local administration. Poles were victims of allied bombings, they weren't sometimes allowed into shelters. Babies of the workers were routinely mishandled, see Ausländerkinder-Pflegestätte. Workers were frequently executed when accused of Sabotage. A Polish woman was decapitated beacuse she poured milk on a German woman in a grocery store. Xx236 (talk) 07:18, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

I agree, but the minor details dont really belong in this article--Woogie10w (talk) 09:57, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Ausländerkinder-Pflegestätte quotes 100 000 - 200 000 dead babies, I don't know how many of them Polish, certainly tens of thousands, it's far from being minor details.

I don't know how many forced workers died, but rather not minor numbers.Xx236 (talk) 06:29, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Report by the Institute of National Remembrance 2009 is probably much more reliable than any others, because the Institute has staff and money and access to former research. A list suggests that all sources are equal - they aren't. Xx236 (talk) 07:30, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

You wrote is probably much more reliable than any others The Institute of National Remembrance did in fact provide a similar format showing these sources. Readers need to see the various estimates for Polish losses and reliable sources that provide analysis. We as editors cannot choose the "correct number".--Woogie10w (talk) 09:57, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Listing of different quality data misinforms. With all due respect Franciszek Proch was an amateur historian, without any access to reliable data. 565,000 (died) in Labor camps - absurd, only a minority of deported Poles was imprisoned in Gulag camps and only a part of them died in camps. It's cold war speculation, like some German cold war speculations about expulsions.Xx236 (talk) 06:44, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Tadeusz Piotrowski cites Franciszek Proch in his book Poland's Holocaust. That is why I put it up. Proch's statistics are here for readers to evaluate. We cannot choose the right number for readers or add our own commentary, we as editors of Wikipedia must have a reliable source that backs up our edits. What you need is a source that says Franciszek Proch is wrong and why.--Woogie10w (talk) 08:01, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

• http://www.ipn.gov.pl/portal/pl/329/5026/?poz=3&update=1 - more than 58 000 deported and imprisoned Poles died in all places, so certainly under 100 000, only a part of them in the camps. Gurjanow's numbers are probably too low, maybe the IPN book dicusses them. Xx236 (talk) 08:43, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

The Institute of National Remembrance data is here POLSKA 1939-1945 STRATY OSOBOWE I OFIARY REPRESJI POD DWIEMA OKUPACJAMISee Tabela 5. Represje sowieckie wobec obywateli II Rzeczypospolitej Tabela 11. Straty względne narodu polskiego w latach II wojny światowej (wywiezieni, deportowani, emigracja) (w tys.)--Woogie10w (talk) 09:11, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

• Table 5 - all persecuted, which included any form - death, camp, deportation to free conditions.
• Table 11 - relative, the majority of the people survived and returned, some emigrated or lived in Germany.Xx236 (talk) 09:21, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Crimes against children - see Kidnapping of children by Nazi Germany. (Polish children were kidnapped and selected for Germanization. Some of them don't know their roots, some live in Germany. They survived but aren't in Poland influencing the population balance.)Xx236 (talk) 07:34, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Ausländerkinder-Pflegestätte

I'm not sure if Kidnapping includes Ausländerkinder-Pflegestätte. German sources give the number of dead babies as 100 000 - 200 000, but they don't say what was the ratio of Polish victims among them.Xx236 (talk) 11:38, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

As far as I know there is no comprehensive simultaneous balance of the European population for each country 1939-1945. Off Wki I can discuss my OR, on Wiki I must remain silent.--Woogie10w (talk) 12:33, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

The only possible balance is Poland (in pre-war borders) and SU (in pre-war borders).Xx236 (talk) 14:27, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

About 100,000 Poles were killed in an ethnic cleansing operation carried out by the Ukrainian Insurgent Army

1. UPA killed also Ukrainians who didn't support UPA and local Czechs.
2. Poles killed Ukrainians, Polish citizens.Xx236 (talk) 08:35, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

• Sluzhba Bezpeky quotes sources
• http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2010/feb/24/a-fascist-hero-in-democratic-kiev/

It's about Jews but nothing about Czech people.

• http://www.jewishgen.org/ukraine/PTM_Article.asp?id=38
• http://www.mankurty.com/holocaust/?p=540 - the text comes probably from http://carlbeckpapers.pitt.edu/ojs/index.php/cbp

What are your reliable sources that we can use to backup these statements? --Woogie10w (talk) 11:57, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Polish citizens with German roots

1. Some Germans (5 000 according to Nazi sources) died in 1939, mostly arrested and killed by the Polish police - both Nazi terrorists and respected activists.
2. Many were drafted into Wehrmacht or Waffen SS, many of them died as Nazis. Many were POWs and joined Polish Army in the West and died as Allies.Xx236 (talk) 08:41, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

• http://niniwa2.cba.pl/volksdeutsche_wylaczanie_wrogich_elementow.htm

1. "Zginęło ich ok. 5 tys" - about 5 000 died
2. "Do armii Andersa wstąpiło kilkadziesiąt tysięcy byłych niemieckich żołnierzy. Do polskiej armii na Wschodzie - ok. 2 tys" - Anders was joined by tens of thousands, about 2 000 joined the PA in the SU. No number of deads here.

• Ryszard Kaczmarek "Polacy w Wehrmachcie" Wydawnictwo Literackie Kraków 2010

What are your reliable sources that we can use to backup these statements?--Woogie10w (talk) 11:58, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Kazimierz Bajer Study used by IPN

I have a PDF of the Bajer Study. Contact me by E mail if you want to take a peek--Woogie10w (talk) 15:33, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Natural increase - annual or total?

In the table World_War_II_casualties_of_Poland#Demographic_study_by_Kazimierz_Piesowicz, natural increase for the period 1939-1945 is given as 1.3 million. This is linked to the article on Rate of natural increase, which is the annual rate of increase, however other figures in the table give total losses, not annualized losses. So is the total figure for births - natural deaths for the period 1939 to 1945 1.3 million or about 7.8 million?--Wikimedes (talk) 16:49, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

the figure of 1.3 million is the net total from 1939-45. I added a clarification in the notes to the schedule.--Woogie10w (talk) 17:46, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Thank you.-Wikimedes (talk) 19:28, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

the journal of the veterans

I'm not sure if "the journal of the veterans" should be quoted here.Xx236 (talk) 07:06, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Why? It is the source cited by IPN Źródło: K. Bajer, Zakres udziału Polaków w walce o niepodległość na obszarze państwa polskiego w latach 1939-1945, "Zeszyty Historyczne Stowarzyszenia Żołnierzy Armii Krajowej", (Kraków) 1996, nr 1, s. 14 (tablica: Obliczenie liczby Polaków teoretycznie zdolnych do oporu wobec najeźdźców). Dane te zostały uzupełnione o wyliczenia z innych źródeł. --Woogie10w (talk) 09:43, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Why? Because some sources are more reliable than others. So we choose reliable sources rather than unreliable ones, criticized by Woogie. Do we quote US army veterans "journals"? Xx236 (talk) 07:38, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Sometimes we do. First you have to prove that the "Zeszyty Historyczne Stowarzyszenia Żołnierzy Armii Krajowej" is an unreliable source. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:31, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

The IPN cited the "Zeszyty Historyczne Stowarzyszenia Żołnierzy Armii Krajowej" as the source to estimate 2,770,000 ethnic Polish war dead[1] that is why it is necessary to include it in the article. This journal is held at Polish academic libraries as well as Stanford Univ in the U.S. I have a PDF of the article. Contact me by E mail if you want to review-- --Woogie10w (talk) 10:59, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

If we disregard Zeszyty as a source we will discredit the IPN figure of 2,770,000 ethnic Polish war dead--Woogie10w (talk) 11:08, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

The book by the IPN contains hundreds of pages and I doubt very much that there exists obvious connection between quoting Bajer and the final number. Xx236 (talk) 06:19, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

There is an obvious and direct connection -the figures that add up to 2,770,000 ethnic Polish dead are taken directly from Zeszyty Historyczne Stowarzyszenia Żołnierzy Armii Krajowej". The IPN cites this as the source.--Woogie10w (talk) 09:51, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

I would like to point out that I have made an effort to present all the major sources that have been published re: Poland's war dead. As editors we should not attempt to decide which are the "correct numbers" and censor those that we consider unreliable.--Woogie10w (talk) 11:27, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

The Stowarzyszenia Żołnierzy Armii Krajowej seems very reliable to me [2]--Woogie10w (talk) 12:15, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Stowarzyszenie is an organization, "Zeszyty" is a journal (not regarded as academic by the Ministry of Scince) and this specific article has been written by a hobby historian. A reader can decide how reliable are the three different subjects.Xx236 (talk) 06:36, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

IPN could have used the assessment by Czesław Łuczak of 2.0 million ethnic Polish war dead which is also detailed in the article, however they decided to use "Zeszyty" as the source for their estimate of 2,770,000 ethnic Polish losses. Łuczak,"Zeszyty" and the IPN report are detailed in the article. A reader can decide how reliable are the three different sources. On the other hand do we have a source that clearly says Zeszyty" and the 2009 IPN report are not reliable? That would be a game changer.--Woogie10w (talk) 12:07, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

The IPN uses this article as the source for ethnic Polish war dead of 2,770,000. --Woogie10w (talk) 10:00, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

IPN is more reliable then Zeszyty; if there's controversy w/ regards to the number, a good solution would be to add a footnote noting that the number is cited by IPN, originally sourced to Zeszyty. Now, is there any other reliable source which clearly disputes this number? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:55, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

I have made it quite clear that the number citedby IPN is originally sourced to Zeszyty. Again I have a PDF of Zeszyty, please E-mail me if you want to view. The bottom line here is the we as editors cannot censor Wikipedia and exclude the source that IPN bases their figure on just because we consider Zeszyty unreliable. I noted in the article that IPN has reservations with the figure The IPN noted that Bajers study was an attempt to calculate the overall losses of ethnic Poles.(Próbę obliczenia ogólnych strat biologicznych Polaków) The authors of the (IPN) report point out that the figure of 2,770,000 deaths during the German occupation should be treated with caution. They maintain that it is difficult to obtain accurate information on the exact number and causes of Poland's losses.(Liczbę tę należy traktować orientacyjnie, gdyż dla samej Warszawy historycy mają problem z ustaleniem liczby ofiar bezpowrotnych) They hope that ongoing projects in Poland will be able to provide more accurate information in the future.--Woogie10w (talk) 11:08, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Here you can see on Table nr. 10 IPN figure of 2,770,000 is originally sourced to Zeszyty Digital copy: Internet Archive Wayback Machine) The IPN figure of 2,770,000 and Zeszyty are linked together hand and glove. Since IPN cites Zeszyty as its source, we as editors were are obliged to detail how Zeszyty derived its figures. Again I have a PDF of Zeszyty, I can forward by E mail--Woogie10w (talk) 12:31, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanations. For now I see no reason to remove the Zeszyty source, as no source that disputes the Zeszyty has been presented (to be clear, I am asking not for a source that presents a different number, but for a source which clearly criticizes the Zeszyty - the journal, the author or the particular article). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:13, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

On Wikipedia we are the world's fact checkers. The folks in the Elite dismiss Wikipedia as unreliable, but in private when nobody is looking they check us out. What's Up Doc?[3]--Woogie10w (talk) 09:28, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Referencing

This article is developing nicely, but I think all sentences need to be cited. There's a good number of sentences that aren't. I'd like to review this for WikiProject for B-class, but until all sentences have refs, this would be a quickfail. That said, once this is fixed, the article may be ready for a Good Article nom :) --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:51, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

As a matter of style I'd strongly recommend the referencing used WP:CITESHORT - there is a huge amount of repetition and redundancy in the reference section currently. (Hohum ^@) 14:54, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree but dont have a clue on how to apply this bot. I have grey hair, and lived most of my life in the world when the only computers were owned by Fortune 500 companies and the government. --Woogie10w (talk) 15:27, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

emigrated from Poland 104,000

I have recently seen a map in "Wysiedlenia, wypędzenia i ucieczki 1930–1959. Atlas ziem Polski" and I believe the number is 300 000. I'll check it. Xx236 (talk) 06:12, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Figure of 104K is for 1939 only; Poles who escaped to Romania & Lithuania. Bajer calculates 69% (104,000) of the 150,000 persons who escaped from Poland(See page 10) --Woogie10w (talk) 11:56, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Kazimierz Piesowicz

Kazimierz Piesowicz's paper was censored. The case is discussed in "Historia gospodarcza Polski", Leszczyńska, Jezierski.Xx236 (talk) 08:47, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

Can you provide the details?--Woogie10w (talk) 12:39, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

I don't have the book, I believe that names of groups of people were changed because of the censorship and rewritten in the book, the numbers weren't changed.Xx236 (talk) 12:58, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

Interesting, I will check the book out at the library next week. --Woogie10w (talk) 13:15, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

Foreign Jews

There were several hundred thousand foreign Jews deported to Poland by the Nazis, most of whom were killed at Auschwitz. There were over 300,000 Hungarian Jews killed at Auschwitz, actually more than the number of Polish Jews killed there. Are these deaths included in official statistics at all? I think they should be mentioned here in some capacity.--Pharos (talk) 23:38, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

You wrote There were several hundred thousand foreign Jews deported to Poland by the Nazis. This is wrong, according to Synder in Bloodlands the figure is about 1 million. In any case the foreign Jews deported to Poland by the Nazis are never ever counted with Polish losses. The another issue is the 1.5 million Jewish Holocaust dead in the territories annexed by the USSR, counted by both the USSR and Poland with their war dead. --Woogie10w (talk) 01:37, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

You wrote I think they should be mentioned here in some capacity I made an edit this AM to address the issue--Woogie10w (talk) 14:19, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

3.0 million ethnic Poles and 3.0 million Jews

The second paragraph of the lead is the first to introduce figures. It begins:

("The official Polish government report on war damages prepared in 1947 put Poland's war dead at 6,028,000; 3.0 million ethnic Poles and 3.0 million Jews not including losses of Polish citizens from the Ukrainian and Belarusian ethnic groups. This figure was disputed when the communist system collapsed by the Polish historian Czesław Łuczak who put total losses at 6.0 million; 3.0 million Jews, 2.0 million ethnic Poles, and 1.0 million Polish citizens from the other ethnic groups not included in the 1947 report on war damages.

Further to the discussion between User:Marcelus and myself here, prompted by the recent Grabowski/Klein paper, we should discuss whether it's appropriate to lead with the 3.0 million number for ethnic Poles. This number dates back to the immediate postwar years. It doesn't seem to be supported by more recent research. Even the IPN speaks of 2.77 million; Władysław Bartoszewski, a historian himself (as well as a former Polish Catholic inmate of Auschwitz), spoke of 2 million almost thirty years ago in Bonn at an occasion marking the 50th anniversary of 8 May 1945.

For reference, Grabowski and Klein say:

The estimate of 3 million non-Jewish Polish victims of World War II was pulled out of thin air in 1946 by Jakub Berman, head of the Polish security apparatus, in order to establish Polish and Jewish losses on par.Footnote29 According to historian Gniazdowski, officials at the time presented ‘an equal proportion of losses among Poles and Jews, although according to the contemporary, and to subsequent estimates, Jewish losses were higher.’ Evidently, he explained, they were ‘fearful of issuing an official estimate which would indicate that Poles were ‘less impacted’ by war than the Jews.’Footnote30 It was one of the first examples of a phenomenon which historians today call ‘Holocaust envy.’Footnote31 In contrast, the 1945 official Polish estimates put the number of Polish victims of World War II at 1.8 million. The most recent estimates put the ethnic Polish losses at closer to 2 million, still well below the Wikipedia claim.

In my view we should give the reader the best, most widely supported figure first, rather than giving the outdated figure and then saying one particular historian has disputed it. Thoughts? --Andreas JN466 18:11, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

I think that as long as we have a discussion explaining older figures and provide the relevant context, as well as cite the full range of numbers in the literature (see Marcelus' comment on that discussion) then your proposal sounds good. Volunteer Marek 18:27, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

BTW, there might be some original research or WP:SYNTH going on in the footnote to Luczak here, the one where it mentions Lech Walesa. Volunteer Marek 18:29, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

A few sources:

• Pohl, Dieter (2011). "JUST HOW MANY? ON THE DEATH TOLL OF JEWISH VICTIMS OF NAZI CRIMES". Denial of the Denial, or the Battle of Auschwitz: Debates about the Demography and Geopolitics of the Holocaust. Academic Studies Press. doi:10.1515/9781618111197-006, concludes the fairly detailed analysis of Poland (pp. 133-137) with the following estimate: between 2.9 and 3.1 mln Jewish Poles killed.
• United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. "Polish Victims." Holocaust Encyclopedia: It is estimated that the Germans killed between 1.8 and 1.9 million non-Jewish Polish civilians during World War II. In addition, the Germans murdered at least 3 million Jewish citizens of Poland
• Report on the losses suffered by Poland as a result of the German aggression and occupation during World War II in the years 1939-1945 [4] (possibly not a WP:RS): 5.2 million people (both Jewish and non-Jewish Poles)
• Grabowski and Klein: The most recent estimates put the ethnic Polish losses at closer to 2 million (quoting C. Łuczak, “Szanse i trudności bilansu demograficznego Polski w latach 1939–1945,” Dzieje Najnowsze 2 (1994): pp. 9–15).

Gitz (talk) (contribs) 10:58, 15 February 2023 (UTC)