Talk:Spotted hyena

Info from Hyena Project regarding social structure.

I have added some small notes regarding the spotted hyenas social structure (I.E. the fact that males can lead clans, and also that females can disperse from clans). However, if you feel like this should be changed, please feel free to do so.

Note: I am not in any way affiliated with Hyena Project. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Redstoneprime (talk • contribs) 15:44, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Spot pattern.

I just thought I'd say that I think it would be a good idea to include how researchers often use the spot pattern to identify individual hyenas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Redstoneprime (talk • contribs) 16:57, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Hyena-project.com, etc.

Redstoneprime, I reverted your edits. Not only were most unsourced, hyena-project.com is not a WP:Reliable source. Stick to scholarly sources per WP:SCHOLARSHIP. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 17:27, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

If you don't mind me asking: why aren't Hyena Project considered a "reliable source"? I thought all research groups were considered as reliable sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Redstoneprime (talk • contribs)

Redstoneprime, why don't you read our WP:Reliable sources guideline? Any ole website doesn't cut it. And, no, we don't include what any researcher or group of researchers state. If that was the case, our WP:Fringe guideline wouldn't exist. And since you are WP:Edit warring on this matter, I will ask editors at the WP:Reliable sources noticeboard to weigh in. In the meantime, Elmidae and Apokryltaros, can I get your thoughts on this? I'm not sure why Sumanuil allowed Redstoneprime's edits. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 17:41, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

So, basically it's a case of "We know what they say is true, but it's not 100% reliable"? Which also brings up the question of: What if we find some useful info, but there's no reliable source for it?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Redstoneprime (talk • contribs) 17:44, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

ALso, I imagine images from such "unreliable" sources are accepted if permission is given? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Redstoneprime (talk • contribs) 18:14, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

I have changed the section regarding hyenas to Zimbabwe back to my version, though, since it's more accurate to say "they aren't protected outside of reserves". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Redstoneprime (talk • contribs) 18:35, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

I imagine the best source of infor regarding hyenas is the IUCN Hyena Specialist Group? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Redstoneprime (talk • contribs) 18:47, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

• My take on this: material sourced to the Hyena Project site is perfectly fine; this is a long-term research project at a Leibniz Institute that has been producing results for 25 years, and the PI is a member of the IUCN hyena specialist group. Details are here. I don't see a reason to doubt information from that source, and referencing to the blog rather than to individual journal publications should also be okay. - However, Redstoneprime, you must attribute this stuff correctly. If you add ten items that all stem from this source, but only reference one of them (placing the others throughout the text without any indication as to what the source is), then you should not be surprised if the lot gets reverted. Please reference each addition, then there should be no problems from that direction. I noted that grammar (looks somewhat doubtful in large stretches) and formatting are likely to need some polish though. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 18:59, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Elmidae could you elaborate a bit more on this, please?Redstoneprime (talk) 19:09, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

What needs elaborating? The referencing approach? In this edit, you add 5 items, but the ones about spot use for ID and persecution by farmers are without references. They all need one. (The one about changing perceptions I would remove, as it is very likely an unsourceable personal synthesis). --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 19:21, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Elmidae Thanks. I take it my correction on the Zimbabwe section can still stay up, though? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Redstoneprime (talk • contribs) 19:28, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Well, is that information contained in the given source (IUCN conservation action plan)? I can't check because the link is dead and I can't find another working one on the net... --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 19:42, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Elmidae, per WP:SCHOLARSHIP, I can't consider using this source perfectly fine. I'm judging the source based on our WP:Reliable sources guideline. I just don't see how it passes. As for citing research reported on the site via using individual journal publications as opposed to citing the site? That might be okay per WP:Primary sources. Also, regarding this edit that Redstoneprime made? That's WP:Weasel wording; the source doesn't support "some research groups." The only research group it supports is this project in particular. So if citing the source at all, it needs better WP:In-text attribution. I get that Redstoneprime didn't just cite the Hyena Project with that edit, but still. And per WP:Primary sources and WP:Due weight, the Hyena Project source shouldn't be used to try to contradict the general literature. And something like "however, research done by Hyena Project at Ngorongoro Crater in Tanzania has confirmed that females may also disperse from their natal clan, although this is very rare, and has only been recorded once" is simply undue because it's presumably only being reported by the Hyena Project and the incident, if true, has been only been recorded once.

On a side note: Mariomassone is an editor I neglected to ping above. Mariomassone is on Wikipedia less often than the others, however. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 20:28, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Flyer22 Frozen Understood. However, if it was cited by Hyena-Project, doesn't that automoatically make it true (espescially since they are part of IUCN Hyaena Specialist Group)? And, regarding your comment about me citing only one research group when I mentioned two, I take it you're talking about the part where I talk about spot patterns? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Redstoneprime (talk • contribs) 20:30, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

See WP:Truth. It's an essay rather than a policy or guideline, but it relays the fact that we don't simply go by what we think is true. We instead go by what sources that pass our WP:Reliable sources guideline state and with WP:Due weight. Yes, per the edit I pointed to, I'm partly referring to your edits about spots.

Also, you still are not signing your posts. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 20:38, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

This strikes me as mistaken on several counts, but okay. The one thing I take definite issue with is the notion that a single research result cannot be used to provide a counter-example to a generally accepted finding. As long as it is reliably sourced and not over-interpreted, such additions are fine and wanted. - Redstoneprime, can you try to source your material to individual publications of the group to allay the misgivings arising (apparently) from the informal nature of the blog? --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 20:55, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Elmidae, the reasons we shouldn't use a single researcher or single research result to try to contradict the general literature is addressed in our WP:Due weight policy, including its subsections. It's also made clear by our WP:Fringe guideline. An outlier source can be included if it's due, but we judge what is due based on its presence in the literature. If something is only reported on in primary sources, then we should question its validity. We should ask ourselves if we should really be including that material if it's not reported on in secondary or tertiary sources. WP:SCHOLARSHIP is clear why we do not prefer primary sources. This is also why the WP:SCIRS essay and WP:MEDRS guideline state what they state. Wikipedia is like this in general -- secondary and tertiary sources are preferred. If primary sources are used, they should be used sparingly and carefully. And if a source is fringe, it may or may not be included, but we have to be clear about the majority viewpoint at all times. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 21:14, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

You are mightily overreacting to an uncontroversial observation in ecology, produced by the group of one of the renowned experts in the field. There's no reason to distrust the finding, and a suitably phrased addendum is not UNDUE. This is hyena sociology, not cold fusion, for Chrissakes; you don't have to go full hyper-skeptic on them. I am really annoyed by this more than I should be, so I will bow out here. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 22:40, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Given that we have a newbie here and, when it comes to the way things are done on Wikipedia, your statement that it's fine to use a single research result "to provide a counter-example to a generally accepted finding" does not hold up (except for cases where it's reported on in secondary or tertiary sources and is due or except for certain cases with respect to literature reviews that indicate that the mainstream view may be wrong or may have overlooked something), as Girth Summit in the section immediately below would no doubt also make clear, I haven't overreacted in the least. I'm trying to educate this new editor on the fact that we do not give the same weight to single research results. Per WP:Due weight, WP:ONUS, and WP:NOTEVERYTHING, we don't add everything that exists on a topic just because one or more sources exist for it. This is not about whether we trust findings or not. It's about what I stated above, including with regard to WP:Truth. And it's good to see that Girth Summit touched on WP:Truth below as well. All that stated, I don't see that we need to argue any further on this. We are both trying to guide Redstoneprime. And I'd pinged you because you offered sound commentary on a different matter at this talk page before. I am interested in what you have to state on matters such as these. I meant no offense. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 23:31, 12 May 2020 (UTC) Tweaked post. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 23:38, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Flyer22 Frozen I don't see why we should question the validity of Hyena-Project, considering they study the animals in Ngorongoro Crater (which means all of their reports are true), so I see no reason to be "skeptical" of them. (Of course, that's just my opinion, and you are free to disagree). Also, as Elmidae pointed out, Hyena-Project are part of both IZW (Leibniz Institute for Zoo and Wildlife Research) Berlin and the IUCN Hyaena Specialist Group (who are considered a reliable source on the spotted hyena article). So, since Hyena-Project aren't a reliable source, wouldn't it make sense to consider the IUCN Hyaena Specialist Group as a non-reliable source, as well? Redstoneprime (talk) 06:47, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Again, like Girth Summit and I have stated, it is not about how valid/truthful the source is. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 23:31, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Flyer 22 in my edit on spots, I mention two research groups (MSU Masai Mara Hyena Project and Ngorongoro Crater Hyena Project). Redstoneprime (talk) 20:42, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Elmidae It's not cited, know. But I know it's true that they're protected within nature reserves, since that's the whole point of nature reserves: to protect local fauna and flora. Redstoneprime (talk) 21:20, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Redstoneprime, I know that you did. Above, I clearly stated, "I get that Redstoneprime didn't just cite the Hyena Project with that edit, but still." Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 21:14, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Elmidae I put a question regarding my edit to the Zimbabwe section onto the Wikipedia Teahouse, if you want to check it out.Redstoneprime (talk) 18:05, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Social behaviour

Does anyone know any reliable sources that state that females can disperse from their natal clan, and also that males can lead the clan? I know from Hyena Project that females can disperse from their clan (or even form new ones), and that males can lead a clan. But I can't find any other sources regarding that info.Redstoneprime (talk) 18:53, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Redstoneprime, if there's something we know, but can't source, we generally leave it out. Our aim is to reflect what the best available sources say, not what we know to be true. This can be frustrating when we have a lot of personal knowledge about a subject, but you can imagine what would happen if we allowed anyone to add anything they like because they 'know' it. This is the internet, after all... GirthSummit _(blether) 15:27, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Redstoneprime: this paper seems to go a little into female dispersal:

Höner, O. P., Wachter, B., East, M. L., Runyoro, V. A., & Hofer, H. (2005). The effect of prey abundance and foraging tactics on the population dynamics of a social, territorial carnivore, the spotted hyena. Oikos, 108(3), 544-554.

You will have to assess whether it backs up what you want to add. No mention of male clan leadership though. If you can't access the paper, give me a ping, I can send you the PDF. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 17:00, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Girth Summit So, that sort of stuff is probably best discussed on the articles talk page?

Elmidae I'm surprised there is no paper on male clan leadership, considering it's been studied before. Also, would you say this a good source: https://academic.oup.com/jmammal/article/84/3/1019/903732? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Redstoneprime (talk • contribs) 20:19, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

It's a published and peer-reviewed scientific paper, thus a reliable source. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 21:36, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

(By the way, if you don't sign your messages, the ping/notofication to other editors won't work) --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 21:37, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Regarding this and this? You shouldn't be adding "usually" unless you have a reliable source to support it. And I don't mean a sole research paper via the Hyena-Project or something else indicating that males occasionally dominate females, or that one male is known to have done so. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 23:31, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Flyer22 Frozen I understand. However, simply saying that "females dominate males" sound a little too "one-sided" in my honest opinion (since it makes it sound like that's always the case. I know that isn't your intention, however)m hence why I put "usually". Not every individual of a species follows the same "rules" that nature has set for that species.Of course, I think Hyena-Project are more reliable for hyenas than, say, some random website made by some random hyena fan. (but just not reliable enough for Wikipedia, of course). I take it the main rule is "Just because you know something is true, don't add it to the page unless you have a reliable source" (such as, in the case of hyenas, the IUCN Hyaena Specialist Group)? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Redstoneprime (talk • contribs) 08:42, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

I have added more to social behaviour (I.E. how cubs rank just below their mothers, and how the matriarchs youngest will take over when the matriarch dies/dispseres). Redstoneprime (talk) 10:55, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

I stand by what I stated above. "Usually" shouldn't be there. With regard to adding text to this article or other Wikipedia articles, it should be supported by sources that pass our reliable sources guideline and should not violate WP:Undue. And for using the same reference more than once, see WP:REFNAME. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 20:43, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Flyer22 Frozen What would be a good way to word it to make it so it doesn't sound like that's always the case (I.E. females are always more dominant than males)? Redstoneprime (talk) 22:10, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Why are you still trying to reword it without a reliable source supporting you? What reliable source states that males occasionally dominate the females? Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 22:58, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Flyer22 Frozen That's true. I know Hyena-Project are the most reliable source for that (I.E. more reliable than some random fan-made website, for example), but just not reliable enough for Wikipedia. I guess it's safe to say that I currently have proof that it happens, but not enough proof to put it on Wikipedia. And unfortunately, I can't find any other source that states that happening (which makes no sense to me, since I imagine other people outside of Hyena-Project would have observed it). Redstoneprime (talk) 07:10, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

Regarding stuff like this? Again, you need to source your content with an incline citation. If that source is supported by a source already in the article, then apply WP:REFNAME so that you aren't redundantly citing the whole source. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 21:14, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

File:Spotted_hyena_(Crocuta_crocuta).jpg scheduled for POTD

Hello! This is to let editors know that the featured picture File:Spotted_hyena_(Crocuta_crocuta).jpg, which is used in this article, has been selected as the English Wikipedia's picture of the day (POTD) for September 12, 2020. A preview of the POTD is displayed below and can be edited at Template:POTD/2020-09-12. Any potential improvements or maintenance that could benefit the quality of this article should be made before its scheduled appearance on the Main Page. If you have any concerns, please place a message at Wikipedia talk:Picture of the day. Thank you! Cwmhiraeth (talk) 12:57, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

The spotted hyena (Crocuta crocuta) is the largest member of the hyena family, Hyaenidae; it can be distinguished from related species by its vaguely bear-like build, rounded ears, less prominent mane and spotted pelt. Native to sub-Saharan Africa, it is the most social of the Carnivora in having the largest group sizes and most complex social behaviours. Although the species suffers from habitat loss and poaching, its wide distribution and large total population has led to it being assessed by the International Union for Conservation of Nature as being of least concern. This spotted hyena was photographed in Etosha National Park, Namibia.

Photograph credit: Charles J. Sharp

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Male may dominate female?

[1][2]

Um, where does the ref say that? Bio Flex (talk) 20:14, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Apparently, Redstoneprime has been stuck on trying to add this to the article, failing to support it with a ref each time. No ref that says it? No add. Bio Flex (talk) 20:24, 17 February 2021 (UTC)