Wikipedia talk:Paid-contribution disclosure

The project page associated with this talk page is an official policy on Wikipedia. Because part of it reflects the position of the Wikimedia Foundation, it may be changed only in accordance with the section Changing this policy.

Requiring disclosure on User Page and article Talk Pages

To make it easier to identify paid editors, I propose the following change to the second sentence of the How To Disclose section: "They must do this on their main user page and on the talk page accompanying any paid contributions."

The key word is the "and" instead of "or". Also, I think that removing the Edit Summaries option would be an improvement, because these disclosures can get lost in the revision history even if the edit in question remains in the article. Cheers, 1292simon (talk) 00:06, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Hi ThatMontrealIP. Here is the Talk page proposal I referred to. Is this not the correct way to make revisions? Cheers, 1292simon (talk) 02:21, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Yes this is the beginning of the discussion. I reverted your change to the guideline as there had been no discussion. A discussion for a siginifigant change needs to reach consensus before a change is implemented. The absence of participation in a discussion does not equal consensus. ThatMontrealIP (talk) 03:22, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Thanks ThatMontrealIP. What should I do next to progress this? 1292simon (talk) 07:53, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Hi ThatMontrealIP. A reminder about my request for help above please. I am not familiar with any special processes used here and would appreciate your help. Cheers, 1292simon (talk) 08:20, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Is the owner of a website a paid editor?

The owner of Guido Fawkes (website) has edited that article and his biography. I've warned him about COI, but I'd like to see something specific about owners. Thanks. Doug Weller talk 15:12, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

I've been having a similar problem with this policy. Is a business owner editing their own business article considered a paid editor? I would think so (they indirectly are making money off of promoting their business, or they have a salary, even if they create their own salary and are the ones choosing/assigning their own tasks for that salary). If volunteers and unpaid workers are included in this, I assume business owners should as well. But I feel like this policy is stated vaguely in this regard.

Can we add something more specific to the policy, stating one way or the other, like "owners or other business executives are considered employees or indirectly paid editors" or "are not considered", just to clarify? - Whisperjanes (talk) 22:16, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

I don't think so - they're just a bog-standard COI editor. SmartSE (talk) 10:17, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

public relations editor who don't disclose properly

While they reveal they're an employee in edit summary whey they make DIRECT EDITS with injecting poorly sourced advertorial language, they don't do so in user page. Should these examples be considered undisclosed paid editing? Special:Diff/771687705 Graywalls (talk) 19:50, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

One of the methods of disclosure specified in the terms of use is in the edit summary for the contribution. Best practice is for the user page to also include a disclosure, but since the editor is only required in the terms of use to follow one of the listed methods, using the edit summary is sufficient to be deemed a disclosed paid editor. isaacl (talk) 22:02, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Changes to this policy discussed at the village pump

There is a discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous)/Archive 65#Volunteers must declare that they are paid? about Pigsonthewing's recent edit to restore the April 2019 version of Wikipedia:Paid-contribution disclosure#Meaning of "employer, client, and affiliation". – Joe (talk) 05:04, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

The discussion is in fact about the edit I reverted, which made a change to this policy, such that it asserted that "volunteers are deemed to be employees". I did not "restore the April 2019 version" of the page. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 08:09, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

The link is to a section, Andy, which you did indeed restore to the version prior to April 2019 [1]. The change you reverted was made then – as you well know. – Joe (talk) 09:45, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

I did not restore the section to the version prior to April 2019; as your diff shows. Indeed, I took particular care to ensure that, while reverting a single edit, I did not change other intermediate editing in that section. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:00, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

"volunteers are deemed to be compensated" would be better wording. Regardless of wording, there's nothing in the long standing policy saying volunteers are excluded. The US DOL FLSA says "Individuals may volunteer time to religious, charitable, civic, humanitarian, or similar non- profit organizations as a public service and not be covered by the FLSA." A non-profit soup kitchen's volunteer desk staff making edits on the organization's Wikipedia page is really no different from a for-profit hotel's administrative assistant (whom by FLSA can not be not paid money) making similar promotional edits. Graywalls (talk) 13:07, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

Volunteers are not "deemed to be compensated". Wikipedia is not governded by the "US DOL FLSA", whatever that is. And please keep the discussion in one place; I have already just replied to your other post, in the linked dicussison. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:54, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

@Graywalls, Andrew Davidson, and 331dot: You seem to have got caught in a renewed edit war about this. If you're not aware of it, please note the ongoing village pump discussion above. – Joe (talk) 11:38, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

• The discussion is actually at Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#Volunteers_must_declare_that_they_are_paid?, not the link above, and I already made a lengthy post there. The idea that volunteers are paid employees is nonsensical and so should be reverted. Note recent developments in US law under which not even paid contractors are considered employees. As such distinctions are legally complex and vary with the jurisdiction, we should focus on the content not the contributors, per WP:ADHOMINEM and WP:NOLEGAL. Andrew🐉(talk) 11:57, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

RfC on new disclosure requirements for freelance paid editors

An RfC proposing an amendment to this policy is live at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) § RfC on new disclosure requirements for freelance paid editors. Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 20:03, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Is there a consensus that paid editing is merely tolerated, but rarely desired even if all the rules are followed?

Doing a straw poll here. If there is such a consensus, I'll write up an essay that can be referred to by various "welcome-coi"-type templates used to welcome new users.

I say "rarely" because things like "Wikipedia in residence" editors are arguably paid editors, and I don't want to quibble over whether they are wanted or not for the purposes of this essay proposal. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 14:07, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

@Davidwr: I drafted Wikipedia:Measuring conflict of interest editing on Wikipedia where I make a claim and request further data that a certain kind of editing is approximately 100% bad with no significant case studies demonstrating otherwise.

I also do a lot of the maintenance for meta:Wikimedians in Residence Exchange Work as well as meta:Wikimedian in Residence documentation elsewhere. In the wiki in residence world, many of us do not use the term "paid editing". Instead we talk about editing for marketing, branding, and promotion, which is the source of problems. The alternative to that is editing with intent to share general encyclopedia information which readers want. There is almost never overlap of these categories of content and no cases where wiki editors could not distinguish the two. Practically all unwelcome paid editors are promoting organizations, people, and products. Among the millions of so-called paid editors which Wikipedia editors have scolded for misconduct, I am unaware of even a single identified case of "paid editors" contributing content which had more value as public benefit than as marketing and promotion. Wikimedians in Residence do edit for public benefit, as do the "paid editors" who are university professors paid by their schools to support students in editing Wikipedia content. I fail to see the value in the term "paid editing" because to me there are obviously two kinds of editing which are easy to distinguish, with one good and one unwelcome. I do agree that everyone getting money should disclose but calling everything as "paid editing" blocks many desired institutional partnerships with universities and similar knowledge centers.

If you feel like writing an essay then consider also going further and writing for The Signpost. Everyone loves getting excited for this topic and yes, I agree with the minority and understated position you are describing.

Consumer Reports paid me as Wikimedian in Residence from 2012-18 and I have been paid as Wikimedian in Residence at the University of Virginia from 2018 to present. Blue Rasberry (talk) 15:53, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll be sure to make the distinction between "promotional paid editing" and call out the other kinds you mentioned.

I did run across a paid editor a month or two back who, once he was told the rules, seems to "get it." Since then, his edits to drafts have been "quality" edits to likely-notable topics even when there is a declared COI/PAID relationship. I can't remember what is username is off the top of my head though. It was a very pleasant surprise. He may be the exception that proves the rule though, *sigh*.

I am an avid reader of The Signpost. I guess that means I have a conflict of interest in contributing to it. On a serious note, I will consider it. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 16:35, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

"There [are] no cases where wiki editors could not distinguish the two." I wish that were true; failure to distinguish the two types is increasingly seen. One current example is at Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard#‎Brigham Young University. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:05, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

• “merely tolerated, but rarely desired”. I think this well worded. Paid editing is tolerated, by the community, but guarded, not happily, by most. Some defend it, most are uneasy with it. Very few, even defenders, desire it. Instead, the recognise it as a reality that is difficult to manage. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:17, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Bigger nut, larger shell?

The terse nutshell doesn't seem to me to sell the big two points here:

• You need to disclose your actions on Wikipedia (in one of three prescribed ways).
• You need to disclose (every one of) your account(s) when soliciting requests on other websites and via email or any other communication.

Would anyone object to a brief mention in the nutshell that disclosure is needed both on-wiki and when advertising, soliciting and arranging? Wording suggestions welcome. — Bilorv (talk) 20:46, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Specific disclosure of paid edits

Hello - general question. If a paid editor makes a general declaration that he/she edits for pay on behalf of a media company that contracts with other clients, does that editor need to specify who those clients are (i.e., which specific people/organizations are asking for this media company to make paid Wikipedia contributions)? It's not clear to me from this guideline whether "client", in this case, merely means the company that employs you to make paid edits, rather than the subjects of that editing that are doing the actual paying to the company that you work for. So, does the declaration have to be, "I am paid by Foo Company to make edits on Wikipedia", or "Foo Company pays me to make edits on behalf of the following people: A, B, and C."? Chubbles (talk) 16:39, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

The purpose is transparency. If it doesn't mean "I'm writing about X on behalf of A, Y on behalf of B, and Z on behalf of C", it should. If that means having an RFC to make this clear, then have an RFC.

The unfortunate reality is that some paid editors may not know who the actual upstream client may be. You may have Joe who works for Jim's PR Emporium, who takes money from Alice, Bob, and Charlie. Jim's PR Emporium doesn't know that Charlie is a front company for another PR firm that doesn't want to have their name associated with "paid editing on Wikipedia." Do we sanction Joe, the man behind the paid-editing keyboard, who had every reason to think Charlie was the "actual client" and said so? Do we allow ourselves to be hoodwinked by Joe's co-worker Sam who is "in the know" and is fully aware that Charlie is a front, but who lied and said Charlie was the actual client?

What about independent editors who THINK they are being asked by Charlie to edit, but in reality Charlie is a middleman? What about independent editors who know or who turn a blind eye to the obvious and say their client is Charlie when they know or should know he's just a middleman? davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 00:26, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

Standard of evidence needed to tag article for suspected UPE

The template documentation at Template:Undisclosed_paid says go ahead and tag the article as UPE if it appears the article may have been the subject of undisclosed paid editing. If we set the burden of evidence too high, it will just foster an environment favorable to covert public relations and professional editing. I tagged the article Luke Hughes (furniture designer) but an IP contributor out of nowhere started removing the tag. After reviewing edit pattern of article and that of several accounts used, based on my experience, there's a reasonable suspicion of UPE, such as edits by several single purpose accounts and an account that adds a lot of very similar pattern resume like edits. Graywalls (talk) 12:36, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

@Graywalls: I am not going to comment on this specific situation, but in general in a case like this, WP:BRD applies along with WP:AGF until it's evident that the other editor is not editing in good faith. The polite thing to do would be to open a discussion, present your case for keeping the tag, then if there was no justification for removing it after at least 24 hours, restore it. If there is reasonable discussion, then keep discussing, and try to see things from the other person's point of view. If it is reverted again without any discussion or the only discussion is unconstructive, then consider asking for a WP:THIRD opinion or a dispute resolution forum. If the editor himself is not willing to engage or the only engagement is clearly non-constructive, then WP:AN/I or a similar noticeboard may be in order. The key thing to keep in mind is: "I might be wrong." A little humility throughout will go a long way if this winds up at WP:AN/I or any other forum where WP:BOOMERANG is a possibility. By the way, I had a recent experience with a pair of disclosed-PAID editors on another article. That slow-motion edit war went on for months before both editors were eventually blocked when it became abundantly clear they were WP:NOTHERE. Had I reacted more strongly initially, I might have been facing sanctions myself for uncivil behavior. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 17:27, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

@Davidwr: Thank you for your reasonable and rational input here. As a bit of a Wikipedia amateur, it is greatly appreciated. I seem to have been bombarded and hounded recently by this editor and one of his kronies for daring to stick up for my edits. Yes, I have made honest mistakes in the past but I feel like this person is going out of their way to destroy anything that I have ever created. Always happy and willing to have a fair and honest discussion, but I shouldn't have to answer to constant and unfounded accusations. I'd genuinely appreciate any help or input from editors like yourself who are clearly just trying to do a good job. This character is deleting pretty much all of my profiles and engaging other Wikipedia bullies to do so. Bamberini8/(talk) 23:15, 23 February 2021 (UTC)