Talk:M. Karunanidhi

Article concerns

Birth name

There is no reliable evidence that suggests his birth name is Daksinamoorthy. I request that this claim is removed from the article. --Ravi (talk) 14:28, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

In his speech here, he clearly declares that Karunanidhi is his birth name given by parents. There is no mention of any other name. --Ravi (talk) 15:21, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

On a quick search of English language sources, I found Britannica and Outlook magazine say that his original/birth name was Muthuvel Dakshinamurthy. Both of these, in normal course, would be regarded as reliable. Is there a reason to mistrust them in this particular case? Abecedare (talk) 00:38, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

@Abecedare: Britannica is a tertiary source and doesn't provide the primary/secondary source for the claim it makes regarding the birth name. The Outlook article says: //The Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam itself has come a long way as has its chief, from being Muthuvel Dakshinamurthy (his original name) to Muthuvel Karunanidhi—the Tamil name he assumed after being indoctrinated into Dravidian ideology (rejecting the "Sanskritic-brahmanical" name his parents had given him).// which is totally incorrect based on the video statement given by the subject himself here. So, considering this being a very controversial politically motivated claim against a living person, please provide a primary or secondary source which proves that his birth name was Dakshinamurthy. Else, please remove that claim. --Ravi (talk) 12:10, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

@Ravidreams: can you provide a translation of the relevant portions from the youtube video? It would help to understand and then decide how to present the differing claims.

Aside: I realize why the page is receiving increased attention at the moment, and it is possible that that will increase exponentially. Having (briefly) looked through the sources and the concerns you cited, I do think the latter have some merit. Not so much because the claims are unsourced or literally "false", but because the article currently present them as isolated "facts" without nuance or context (for example, Karunanidhi's Ram setu comment is presented simply as a "controversy" instead of presenting it in context of his ideology of rationalism). So lets just try to work cooperatively to improve the article. Also, since we are both experienced and good-faith editors here, I believe among the two of us we can dispense with citation of wikipedia policies (which we both are aware of) and for sake of efficiency and comity just talk as we would if we met in real life. Cheers. Abecedare (talk) 13:04, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

@Abecedare:, thanks for the encouraging words. This leader has been in the news for the last one week because of his health condition. The page is receiving 100,000+ views every day and it is important that the article quality is improved. Citing English Wikipedia policy helps for my own reference and others who may have an interest in the changes. So, I hope it is not a major incovenience.

The Youtube video explains the reason for his name in his own words. Roughly it says as follows: "Because of my involvement and affinity for the Dravidian movement, many advised me to change my name to Arul Selvam which is the literal Tamil translation for my name Karunanidhi. I even consulted my leader Annadurai regarding this. He suggested that the name Karunanidhi is already very popular and it would be a wasted effort to keep announcing in every stage that his name has been changed. Therefore, I stuck to my name Karunanidhi to honor the wish of my parents who gave me that name. Thus the name stayed".

This proves the following - 1. Karunanidhi is a name given by his parents. 2. He never changed his name. There are no officiall records of him having other names. Neither did he ever mention of such names in any primary/secondary sources. --Ravi (talk) 18:20, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the translation. That helps. I'll work on the birth and early life section later today to incorporate this and other material I have been looking at and then we can review in around 24 hours. Abecedare (talk) 18:24, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, but got distracted by other wiki-fires today and didn't edit the section as I had intended to. Tomorrow, for sure! Abecedare (talk) 03:58, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

Abecedare The Hindu ,Zee News M Karunanidhi: The journey from Dakshinamurthy to Kalaignar ,The Times of India The political journey of M Karunanidhi: A timeline and India Today M Karunanidhi: The man who wore many hats ,Hindustan Times Kalaignar Karunanidhi dies in Chennai: The colossus of Dravidian politics all state his name was Dakshinamurthy but it was later changed to Karunanidhi.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 08:24, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for finding those. Outlook isn't an outlier in that case. I'll let the dust settle a bit and then get down to working on the article. Join in! Abecedare (talk) 08:28, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

@Abecedare:, I seriously don't understand how fact checking works in enwiki. The man himself has declared in a video statement that his birth name given by parents is Karunanidhi. But, why you are you ignoring that and presenting passing mentions and tertiary sources as references without having any basic proof?--Ravi (talk) 09:09, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

We don't do "fact checking" on Wikipedia. We rely on reliable sources that do. The Hindu, Outlook and India Today are sources that are reputed to do fact-checking. They are quite adequate for our purposes. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 12:03, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

@RaviC: Kautilya is right that we largely rely on secondary sources and trust them to do the fact-checking. Sometimes newspapers do make errors, and we try to avoid repeating their howlers, but in this case several independent sources have discussed the Dakshinamurthy name. However, as I said above, the name issue can be better presented; see for example, the third para of Periyar E. V. Ramasamy#Early years even though the facts are not exactly parallel here since Karunanidhi doesn't seem to have publicly acknowledged the change. I'll be working on the Early life section today, and we can then re-discuss the issue to see if any further improvements can be made. Abecedare (talk) 13:06, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

I believe that you tagged different Ravi by mistake than @Ravidreams:. I have added the link and re-wrote the wording as well. I know that we don't do fact checking and we rely on secondary sources, let the user decide whats the fact. --Dineshkumar Ponnusamy (talk) 17:29, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

• Okay, I have finished the planned work on the Early life and family section, which included the content related to the birth-name and ancestry discussed in this and the next-subsection. The former, per my reading, is frankly non-controversial and so I have avoided the "some say" framing. The latter is more of a political issue in context of state-politics rather than simply a matter of "biographical fact", and so I have tried to summarize both the claims and indicated the claimants, so that the reader has some clue of their respective motivations. Let me know if you have any thoughts about those issues or the parts that I expanded.

PS: Does anyone know how to cite insource-location ("page numbers") for kindle ebooks? Abecedare (talk) 16:34, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

Telugu ancestry

All the sources cited regarding his Telugu ancestry are unreliable and rehash of perpetuating news magazine articles without any primary source. Please remove this claim from the article. --Ravi (talk) 17:16, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

Although many Tamils would like to deny this, there are multiple sources - which do you think is/are unreliable? - Arjayay (talk) 18:48, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

All the given sources are unreliable. What is needed is proof of official records or ethnographic studies that mention the caste he belongs is Telugu speaking. Instead, what we have here is mere mention that he is Telugu speaking from various news articles without any credible source to back it up.

Please note that according to WP:BLP,

"Editors must take particular care when writing biographical material about living persons. Contentious material about a living person that is unsourced or poorly sourced should be removed immediately; "

and that Context matters:

"The reliability of a source depends on context. Each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made in the Wikipedia article and is an appropriate source for that content. In general, the more people engaged in checking facts, analyzing legal issues, and scrutinizing the writing, the more reliable the publication. Information provided in passing by an otherwise reliable source that is not related to the principal topics of the publication may not be reliable; editors should cite sources focused on the topic at hand where possible. Sources should directly support the information as it is presented in the Wikipedia article. "

None of the given sources match the quality required to establish this very controversial claim that he has Telugu ancestry.

• Swarajya - This article itself contradicts the claim it makes: "It is not clear whether this is true; Karunanidhi’s stated caste is Isai Velalar which is clearly a Tamil caste." How can this be a source?
• Hindustan Times - Passing mention of Telugu background with no source to back it up.
• Vikatan - Interview by a political rival with obvious conflict of interest to show the subject in a poor light.
• News18 - Only a passing mention of Telugu background. No proof given.
• The Pioneer - Nothing more than racial profiling. No proof.
• Dinamalar - ANother passing mention of his ancestry. No proof. This article is not even a news article but a politcial commentary.

Fake news doesn't become the truth if you keep reproducing it across many newspapers.

I request you to keep the Unreliable Sources template until this discussion is resolved. --Ravi (talk) 23:45, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

For reference, here is the text that was recently removed from the article along with the attached sources: He has Telugu ancestry.

I'll review the cited sources (and others) in the next day or two and add my comments then. In the meantime, may I request that other disputed text (especially if it is sourced) not be deleted from the article till it has been independently reviewed. Except for instances of gross BLP violations, of course, in which case it would be helpful to mention the removal and provide a link to the edit here on the talkpage. Abecedare (talk) 00:46, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Karunanidhi's ancestors lived in a village called Cheruvu Kommupalem in Ongole (Prakasam) district of Andhra Pradesh. They belonged to Nadaswaram players family engaged by Pelluru Samsthanam. In 1960 Karunanidhi visited Eluru (West Godavari district) and attended a meeting of Detective novel writers. There he met one novelist by name Kompalli Balakrishna who hailed from Ongole. Balakrishna mentioned that he came from Ongole. Karunanidhi replied that his ancestors were from Cheruvu Kommupalen near Ongloe and migrated to Tamil land three generations ago because of financial constraints. He asked how is Ongole now? Kompalli Balakrishna recently expired and he used tell this episode in all the meetings he attended. His wife Tella Aruna knew this and mentioned in a TV channel interview after Karunanidhi's death. This matter can be investigated further.130.75.191.37 (talk) 10:10, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

We cannot rely on hearsay.

Abecedare, I agree with the OP that the sources given here are too weak for such a weighty claim. The current text saying "he is claimed to have Telugu ancestry" is the best we can say. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:57, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

Yes, but can do better. :) Abecedare (talk) 13:07, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

References

Further reference, https://www.deccanchronicle.com/lifestyle/viral-and-trending/090818/kalaignars-telugu-connect.html. Karunanidhi indeed a Telugu ethnic person no way a native Tamil.Namooru (talk)

What does this reference say that establishes anything here? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 01:26, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

There was some doubt regarding Karunanidi's origin for several years but right after the death of Karunaidhi it was admitted Karunanidi was born Telugu and his actual name was Dhakshamoorty. This is a cold but hard truth for almost all Telugu people in Tamil Nadu where they deny their Telugu origin for opportunities in Tamil Nadu. Not only that but he spoke Telugu fluently even back then which is a strong indication he has some direct Telugu origin. Before he entered politics he use to hang around with cinema actors mostly Telugu. From the beginning Karunanidhi was a political opportunist and he saw opportunity in the Dravidian movement. Another similar story is it is proven Jayalalitha is half Telugu and her mother is Telugu. Her niece speaks fluent Telugu and still have relatives back in Andhra that they still keep in contact with. Jayalaitha was also schoolmates with several children of the cinema field. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A000:112F:8243:185B:8308:979B:5F02 (talk) 16:26, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Connections with LTTE

I request to remove the following lines. Why mention the interim report when final report had no such allegations?

"The interim report of Justice Jain Commission, which oversaw the investigation into Rajiv Gandhi's assassination, indicted Karunanidhi for abetting the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE).[30] The interim report recommended that Tamil Nadu Chief Minister M. Karunanidhi and the DMK party be held responsible for abetting Rajiv Gandhi's murderers. The final report contained no such allegations.[31]"

--Ravi (talk) 00:22, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

Regrettably, I feel that in light of Karunanidhi's remarks, the mention of the interim report is significantly encyclopedic enough.Otherwise, I would have been inclined to remove it.Also, many political commentators have pointed to supposed links between him and LTTE (I'll be shortly adding content and improving the article:-)) ∯WBG^converse 16:09, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

Corruption charges

I request to remove the following lines.

"He has been indicted by the Sarkaria commission for corruption in allotting tenders for the Veeranam project.[26] Indira Gandhi dismissed the Karunanidhi government based on charges of possible secession and corruption. In 2001, he was arrested on the charges of corruption in the construction of flyovers in Chennai.[27] He and his party members were also charged under four Sections like IPC 120(b), IPC 167, IPC 420 and IPC 409."

Why mention the indictment when the enquiry was over and no charges were proven? In a political career spanning 80 years any one accuse for anything. What matters is if one's misbehaviour in the court and if a sentence was given. None of the corruption charges against him were proven in the court and were most accusations and preliminary arrest were politically motivated. --Ravi (talk) 00:28, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

I but cannot perceive this as some form of whitewashing-attempt, though it was surely not your intention.A politician, who is the chief-minister of a state, getting arrested is a significant thing (BLPCRIME doesn't apply).The way out, to resolve the aspects of neutrality is to add that he was finally not convicted in contrary to removal of the entire stuff and I'll look into that. ∯WBG^converse 16:14, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

INB

@Balablitz and Titodutta: Let me know under what circumstances I should proceed after announcing in INB. Also, let me know how long I should wait for a discussion to initiate or be resolved. --Ravi (talk) 22:33, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

Section order

Is there a guideline that sections should be presented by chronological order only? His primary achievement is in politics. He has been a legislator for 60 years of his life. Can the sections about his political career be presented at the beginning of the article followed by his other engagements like films and literature?--Ravi (talk) 12:55, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

I see what you mean. Tentatively, I believe it may still make sense to keep the Film industry section between Early life and Political career, while moving the Literature section (and list of films) down. But the sections need to be rewritten in any case (right now they are just a bunch of unconnected sentences), so it may be better to do that first and then decide how it best comes together. Abecedare (talk) 14:04, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Additional sources

• Ravishankar, Sandhya (31 May 2018). Karunanidhi: A Life in Politics. HarperCollins Publishers India. ISBN 978-93-5277-920-8.
  • A very recent biography. The review in Outlook thought it to be hagiographic; still could be useful.
• Barnett, Marguerite Ross (8 March 2015). The Politics of Cultural Nationalism in South India. Princeton University Press. ISBN 978-1-4008-6718-9.
  • A recent scholarly book with good coverage of Karunanidhi's political career (not much personal bio).
• Subramaniam, Chandran (September 22, 2015). "How Political History Is Reflected in Autobiography: Reading of Kalaignar Mu Karunanidhi's Nenjukku Needhi". SSRN. doi:10.2139/ssrn.2799068.
  • Discussion of his memoir and literary works. I am not sure whether this was actually "published" anywhere, or just deposited in the SSRN repository.

Will add more as I find/read them. Abecedare (talk) 03:21, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

Death

Dr.M.Karunanidhi was admitted to Kaveri hospital with complications in his health due to old age. After intense treatment he passed away at the age of 94 at 18:10 IST on 7th August 2018 with the citation being multiple organ failure at Kaveri Hospital, Chennai.

References

Semi-protected edit request on 2 February 2021

The vote percentage of "Elections contested and positions held" in the 2016 elections is not filled. The site <ref.https://www.india.com/assembly-election-2016/tamil-nadu/thiruvarur/</ref> has the list of votes secured by all candidates in Thiruvarur. On calculation, Karunanidhi secured 61.73% of the votes and the main opposition candidate received 26.99% of the votes. This might need to be updated. CapnJackHarkness (talk) 15:28, 2 February 2021 (UTC)CapnJackHarkness

 Done; although, I've used the source from Election Commission of India which also has the vote share. SUN EYE 1 16:29, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 May 2021

In the controversies, you have to add about not only his son, but also his another son, daughter, grand son, nephew, grand nephew.

 And in the corruption list, they didn't add an important 2G spectrum. Due to that only, he had lost his position. 2409:4072:6D85:473:898C:3199:47F6:2C4E (talk) 05:31, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (talk) 05:59, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 January 2022

2409:4072:6080:D5BC:0:0:1C59:98AD (talk) 07:29, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Please please

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:59, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 January 2022

Chinnammarism (talk) 15:39, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

I will change one mistake

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. aboideau^{talk to me!} 15:41, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Please change Opposition Leader 2001-2006 because Karuanidhi not will a opposition leader in 2001-2006 K. AnbazhaganServed As Opposition Leader of Tamilnadu Assembly From 2001-2006. Chinnammarism (talk) 16:17, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

 Done - SUNEYE 1 16:23, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 March 2022

P. Balaji 2409:4072:8E98:5742:9D8E:A6E0:E3ED:5ED8 (talk) 15:54, 8 March 2022 (UTC)