Talk:Battle of Stalingrad

Role of Army Group A during the battle

Even, with the desperate situation of the Sixth Army, Army Group A continued their invasion of the Caucasus further south from 19 November until 19 December. By 19 December the German army was in full retreat out of the Caucasus, while using the Sixth Army to tie down the Soviet forces. Hence army Group A was never used to help relieve the Sixth Army. — This is wrong in many ways. First of all, there was no further offensive action by Army Group A after the beginning of November, when 17th Army had not been able to take the city of Tuapse on the nothern coast of the Black Sea. Same for the mountain divisions, that could not surpass the Caucasus and take Sukhumi. Farther in the east, 1st Panzer Army's advances towards Grosny and Vladikavkaz (then: Ordzhonikidze) were stopped by the Red Army at the outskirts of both cities. Due to a lack of material, manpower and fuel, there was no more attacking in that region, just holding the ground for several weeks. The retreat out of the Caucasus did only take place when Hitler ordered it in the end of December, as Army Group A was in danger to be cut off by Soviet attacks towards Rostov after Operation Winter Storm had failed. However, this only began on 31st of December, not about two weeks prior. So this whole paragraph is to be corrected accordingly at least. --Ennimate (talk) 22:28, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

If sources to cite for this are presented, the article can be changed. --A D Monroe III^(talk) 01:03, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Well, here we go with only a handful examples:

• Encyclopedia of World War II: A Political, Social, and Military History
• David R. Galbraith: The Defence and Evacuation of the Kuban Bridgehead, January – October 1943
• Alexander Werth: The Battle of Stalingrad, Chapter 7, "Caucasus, there and back"
• P.N. Pospelow: Geschichte des Großen Vaterländischen Krieges der Sowjetunion
• Percy Ernst Schramm: Kriegstagebuch des Oberkommandos der Wehrmacht. Band 2
• Walter Hubatsch: Hitlers Weisungen für die Kriegführung 1939–1945. Dokumente des Oberkommandos der Wehrmacht
• Carl Wagener: Heeresgruppe Süd
• Rudolf Konrad: Kampf um den Kaukasus
• Bernd Wegner: Das Deutsche Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg. Band 6: Der globale Krieg – Die Ausweitung zum Weltkrieg und der Wechsel der Initiative 1941 bis 1943; chapter Der Krieg gegen die Sowjetunion 1942/43. (page 1063 citing, that if Hitler's order to take back Army Group A from the Caucasus given on Dec. 28 had been given a month earlier, there might have been realistic chances to relief 6th army.)
• Bernd Wegner: Der Mythos "Stalingrad" (19. November 1942–2. Februar 1943) as a part of Schlachtenmythen. Ereignis – Erzählung – Erinnerung.
• The Institut für Zeitgeschichte published one of their journals (in German Vierteljahrshefte für Zeitgeschichte) about the German plans for the Caucasus region in 2005 (titled Das „kaukasische Experiment" - the Caucasian experiment). Quote: Wie auch immer, die Frage erledigte sich mit dem Rückzug der Heeresgruppe A aus der Region ab dem 1. Januar 1943 im Zuge der Auswirkungen der Stalingrad-Katastrophe bei der benachbarten Heeresgruppe B [...] - loosely translated, that the question [how to handle a German controlled Caucasus region] was no more with the retreat of Army Group A after Jan. 1 1943 as a result of the catastrophy at Stalingrad.

To conclude: Except from maybe some smaller skirmishes for the city of Tuapse (which didn't change anything at all), there was no further offensive action of Army Group A in the given time phase. And it would be absolutely nonsense to believe, that the Germany continued their attacks in a large scale, when there was a giant battle in their back for the same time. A simple question of logistics. However, after A.G. A's attacks had come to a hold (in some places already in September and October), they did not retreat immediately; the front was literally frozen for weeks. The Germans couldn't go any further, the Soviets concentrated their efforts elsewhere (Stalingrad), for the moment they were satisfied ti have stopped the German advsce. After the encirclement of 6th army, A.G. A was originally ordered to hold out in its positions. On the one hand, the German high command did not doubt to be able to relief 6th army with their available forces, on the other hand any retreat would have given away the chance for further advance in 1943. If there ever had been such - in 1943, the Germans had the power for only two offensive strikes, one at Charkov in late winter, the other one at Kursk in July. It's hard to believe, that they could have progressed against well-defended Soviet positions with their lack of manpower, overstreched supply lines etc. More likely, the Soviets could have repelled them in 1943 anyway (in a smaller scale, this happened with the Kuban bridge head). However, the decision not to take back the Army Group into some defensive positions closer to the Don and to give free some urgently needed forces for offensive actions in the region of Stalingrad (whatever that might have had as outcome), was obsolete in the end of Dec., when Army Group Don under Manstein could not relief 6th Army (fail of operation Winter Storm), but got under heavy attack by the Red Army itself with the possibility of a Russian break through towards Rostov, which would have cut off Army Group A from the own lines. Only then the full retreat was ordered and followed - but as already cited above, this took place later then actually stated in the article. --Ennimate (talk) 12:32, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

{U|Ennimate} I have added a citation and minorly edited the sentence. Ping me to let me know I may have made a mistakeLostCitrationHunter (talk) 13:12, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 March 2021

79.13.135.42 (talk) 08:32, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

The soviet victory was decisive

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (Say hi!) 08:41, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

Investment terminology error?

The page states that "The Red Army units immediately formed two defensive fronts: a circumvallation facing inward and a contravallation facing outward"

However, the Investment page (which is linked to) states that a circumvallation faces outward, and that a contravallation faces inward.

I'm not sure which one is right, but perhaps someone with more experience knows which one needs changing! Etherealflux (talk) 03:16, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request

Under losses and casualties, there is a typo (inculding). Kaneiac (talk) 19:05, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

 Done ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:19, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

Axis armies involved at the Battle of Stalingrad

In When Titan's Clashed, Glantz lists only the 4th Panzer Army, 6th Army, 2nd Romanian and 3rd Romanian Armies as being part of the battle at the start of Operation Uranus. In Zhukov's memoirs he counts these 4 armies as the German forces engaged on the Stalingrad axis whilst Anthony Beevor's Stalingrad and Stalingrad 1942–1943: The Infernal Cauldron only lists the 2 German armies in the order of battle. In fact, most sources discuss either the forces engaged directly in the city or the forces engaged in the city + the Romanian armies involved in Uranus as part of the battle.

The debate over the armies engaged at Stalingrad mentioned in this article is inaccurate, it would be more accurate to say that it refers to whether the scope of the battle refers to the forces of Operation Uranus and in the city or whether only the forces in the city count.Originalcola (talk) 18:17, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

As you said, Glantz lists only "the start of Operation Uranus" (November 1942), he did not list the Axis strength in counter-offensive (Operation Winter Storm, December 1943). Remember, Operation Winter Storm is a part of Stalingrad offensive, tooCacharo66 (talk) 13:11, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

I feel like there's been a misunderstanding, the article refers to the start of the Soviet counter-offensive instead of the Axis one. The Soviet counter-offensive begins with Operation Uranus, which is the first stage of a series of offensives which are not all in the scope of the battle of Stalingrad,

Hypothetically, if it were referring to Operation Winter Storm then there would need to be different sources as these numbers would all be wrong as neither refers to Axis strength at the start of Winter Storm. Operation Winter Storm didn't involve the Hungarian or Italian troop so even if it read "Axis counter-offensive", which is what I am assuming you read, it wouldn't make sense to include them anyway as they aren't part of the battle beforehand or the counter-offensive. In Krivosheev's Soviet Casualties and Combat Losses in the Twentieth Century the Stalingrad Strategic Offensive Operation includes the Italian armies because he groups Little Saturn as part of the offensive, which adds further complexity to the issue of what armies to include. Also note that the Soviet numbers are also referring to the Soviet strength at the start of Operation Uranus so these would also have to be changed.

Either way, you can't keep information on an article if the source material used directly contradicts it and if no sources can be found to support it.Originalcola (talk) 23:27, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

Another note, Glantz doesn't use the quote "the start of Operation Uranus" so you may be reading from a secondary source. If you are struggling to find it I would recommend looking on archive.org as there might be a copy of his book there.Originalcola (talk) 23:43, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 February 2022

In the sentence "A massive traffic jam resulted when the 4th Panzer and the 1st Panzer choked the roads", please unlink "traffic jam". It doesn't serve any useful purpose because it links to an article about cars in city streets. 2001:BB6:4713:4858:10D9:CF9F:75:FB78 (talk) 15:03, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

 Done I have also rewritten that paragraph slightly. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:58, 16 February 2022 (UTC)