Talk:List of guests at the state funeral of Elizabeth II

map

Hello, I just made a map for this article with mapchats.com, which is not the usual for Wikipedia (I used map charts because I am new to making Maps and don't know the basics). And I just want to see what everyone thinks about this

in my opinion it gives a visual element to this article that helps the reader better understand 4me689 (talk) 22:10, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Duchess of Kent

After she already disapeared from the list do we already have proof that she won't attend? And in my opinion I wouldn't be surprised because she already was frail some years ago. 84.167.95.47 (talk) 16:46, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

The Telegraph only mentioned the Duke so I removed her for now. Richiepip (talk) 18:27, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Then why is she added again? 84.167.95.47 (talk) 16:58, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Bowes-Lyon

Should there be something like that for the descendents of her Bowes-Lyon grandparents? !Sir Simon Bowes-Lyon, first cousin! for example? 84.167.95.47 (talk) 17:44, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Has it been confirmed the Bowes-Lyon's are coming? Anyone can answer that. TheCorriynial (talk) 13:14, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Nothing heard yet.84.167.95.47 (talk) 19:11, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

If its confirmed, then I'd agree they'd likely should be listed somewhere under the Royal Family under something like:

(I.E Other descendants of the Queen Mother's family and their relationship to the late Queen.) TheCorriynial (talk) 16:47, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Commonwealth presidents

I'd be interested to know my fellow Wikipedians thoughts on if we should continue to list the presidents of Commonwealth republics with the prime ministers of the Realms, or if they should be listed with the other Republican heads of state. Richiepip (talk) 21:43, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

I don't think it's a problem, as it is somewhat implicit that they are republics that were once kingdoms of the Windsors. I think of classifying republican heads of state in 3 categories (former empires, former kingdoms and without a monarchic past) HealthKnight1993 (talk) 22:45, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Forget what I said. I abandoned this idea HealthKnight1993 (talk) 17:52, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Flag icons on Members of non-reigning royal houses

In my opinion, flag icons on Members of non-reigning royal houses is a good idea. It will help illustrate what country there from, and will make it more readable. (Also this is unrelated but i really want more comments on the Talk page of User:4me689/the most important deaths of each year (2000 - present).)4me689 (talk) 16:33, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

I am not mad that you added the flags back, in fact, I do agree with you that they should be included, however, when I have added them to articles in past they have been removed with WP:MOSICON being cited. I will not remove them again but an editor may. Richiepip (talk) 16:42, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Where should King and Queen of Malaysia, Sultan of Brunei and King of Tonga be put?

These three are Commonwealth heads of states and foreign monarches, where should these three be put?--Billytanghh (talk) 17:56, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

In my opinion, in foreign royalty section, where they belong. It will be really weird to put them in commonwealth considering others listed in the section are prime ministers and presidents. I am also not oppose to add small note next to their names indicating that they are also head of states of commonwealth for clarification, if needed. Lulusword (talk) 19:28, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

You are thinking too complicated I think. 2003:DA:CF15:DF05:C17D:3211:A656:A2B4 (talk) 12:10, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Unnecessary segregation of non-reigning royal houses

I reverted the recent edit where the sub-section for non-reigning royal houses is separated into three sub-sections: non-reigning national royal houses, members of German royal houses, and non-national royal houses. I find the classifications particularly arbitrary and the segregation unnecessary and have removed them. None of them are currently reigning so for such a minor part of this list page, I don't think it's extremely necessary to separate them into three sub-groups. EDIT: It has been reverted back to a single list by Peter Ormond (thanks!). HolaQuetzalcoatl (talk) 15:17, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Attendance of reigning royals of disputed or limited recognition

The Holy Khan and Sovereign Prince of Hohenstaufen of the Sovereign See is set to attend the funeral, confirmed by the imperial court. The status of the Sovereign See is disputed, it’s recognized by a fraction of the states. His attendance is was noted, but is recently deleted from the page 89.205.132.242 (talk) 15:37, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Can you provide a source where it stated that they will come? Lulusword (talk) 16:14, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

It was mentioned on their insta stories earlier this week, with a link to the article on their website:

http://www.legionoftheforce.org/diplomatic-updates/the-imperial-family-will-attend-the-funeral-of-hm-queen-elizabeth-ii 46.244.59.201 (talk) 18:40, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

It appears that this organization is at best an unusual religious organization/microstate of sorts. At worst, it appears to be the blog of some role-replaying Dutch man. This organization does not appear to be newsworthy/noteworthy and should not be listed as a guest to the funeral. Also, no independent source have even mentioned this entity as far as I'm aware. Leiwang7 (talk) Leiwang7 (talk) 18:17, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

I've studied both royal pretenders and micronations, and this is the first I've heard of this individual or his claim. I know the IP above claimed that the claims status is 'recognised by a fraction of the states' - I think that fraction might be 0%. I don't think this individual is going to be at the funeral. GenevieveDEon (talk) 20:46, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Relationship of foreign European royals to Queen - mentioned in article or not?

Should the relationships of other European royals to the late monarch be mentioned in this article? Was done in case of her late husband's funeral (see Death and funeral of Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh) Aumnamahashiva (talk) 17:55, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Thailand?

I could not find anyone from Thailand, neither the king nor members of the royal house nor other dignitaries of the country. In the section about not-invited dignitaries Thailand isn't mentioned either, or did I overlook something? So, what about Thailand? Altaripensis2 (talk) 20:40, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

There are countries that have not yet informed about their delegations and have been invited (or there is no known express non-invitation). We will have to wait. _-_Alsor (talk) 21:47, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Ok, I see, thanks!--Altaripensis2 (talk) 09:19, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Separation of Commonwealth Realm representatives and dignitaries from the wider commonwealth

I feel it would be worth separating the representatives from Commonwealth realms from the wider commonwealth dignitaries. The Queen was Head of State of 14 other countries and I believe it’s important to separate those representatives from others where the Queen was not. Thoughts? TobiasRagg2001 (talk) 15:21, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Attempting to fix the issue and you may help as well. Mitsuyashi (talk) 15:29, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

It is now hard to find a person on the page. Suggestion: one big sortable table would make it easier to find a guest by country, name or function, e.g.

group	flag	country	fuction	name
Royal family		United Kingdom	King	Charles III
Commonwealth		Australia	Prime minister	Anthony Albanese
Commonwealth		Canada	Prime minister	Justin Trudeau
Commonwealth		Canada	Governor General	Mary Simon
Foreign royalty		the Netherlands	King	Willem-Alexander
etc.	etc.	etc.	etc.	etc.

Uwappa (talk) 15:55, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

FWIW - Charles III, the British prime minister & other British dignitaries aren't guest in their own country, which is where the funeral is being held. GoodDay (talk) 17:42, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

The current version is acceptable. We don't need any further changes. The United Kingdom, Australia, Canada & New Zealand were the only countries that were Commonwealth realms, her entire reign. GoodDay (talk) 16:57, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

This list is getting very complicated. Can't we just make an alphabetical table for all national representatives? Peter Ormond 💬 17:12, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

It's not complicated. The UK/CAN/AUS/NZ should have their own sections. The 11 other Commonwealth realms, are being represented by only 1 or 2 dignitaries. Clumping them all under "Commonwealth realms" or even worst "Commonwealth of Nations", would be totally confusing. GoodDay (talk) 17:20, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

It would either have to be one long list of names listed alphabetically with no sub-headings, or it would have to be something similar to what has been written on the current version of the article in order to deal with the complex nature of how the monarchy is politically viewed across the world. Mitsuyashi (talk) 17:26, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Giving UK, Can, Aus & NZ there own sections is best. GoodDay (talk) 17:34, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

UK, Can, Aus, NZ should have separate sections.

May we please allow the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia & New Zealand have their own separate sections? These are the 'four' countries, that were Commonwealth realms during Elizabeth II's entire reign. Besides, they're also the four who are being represented by a big number of dignitaries. The 11 other realms are being represented by no more the two or three people, each. GoodDay (talk) 17:14, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

It is not a big problem for me so I will leave it as it is. My only worry is whether the realms should be ordered alphabetically rather than having the United Kingdom at the top, since she was the Queen of her realms independent of each other. Mitsuyashi (talk) 17:21, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

They're ordered by the age of the realms (UK-1801, Canada-1867, Australia-1901 & New Zealand-1907), not to mention that the funeral itself is taking place in the United Kingdom. GoodDay (talk) 17:24, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

@Peter Ormond: will you please stop lumping the UK, Canada, Australia & New Zealand under the heading "Commonwealth realms". These realms should have their own separate sections. They (again) were the realms that lasted her entire reign & also are the realms with 'more then' two dignitaries. GoodDay (talk) 18:53, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Are they not "Commonwealth realms"? UK, Canada, Australia & New Zealand retain their own separate sub-sections within the overall realms grouping. Peter Ormond 💬 18:59, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Let those four realms have their separate sections. The following section says "Other Commonwealth realms" (thus showing UK/CAN/AUS/NZ are also realms). The funeral is being held in the UK, not all the realms. She's not going to be buried 15 times, once in each realm. I realise that 'some' may not like it, but the page is UK-centric for obvious reasons. Giving Canada, Australia & New Zealand their own sections, along with the United Kingdom, is a darn good compromise. GoodDay (talk) 19:03, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Now, what's wrong in "Wider Commonwealth"? Peter Ormond 💬 19:06, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

"Wider Commonwealth" is acceptable, if it's not including the realms where Charles III is head of state. GoodDay (talk) 19:06, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

It is not a big problem for me so I will leave you two to work it out (unless you put the issue out for a vote) but I think that grouping the countries under "Commonwealth realms" is good organization. Mitsuyashi (talk) 19:11, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Disagree (per explanations), but perhaps an RFC may be required on this topic. GoodDay (talk) 19:13, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Separating Commonwealth Realms from other Commonwealth nations makes a certain amount of sense, but what is the rationale for separating Canada, Australia, and New Zealand from the other Commonwealth Realms? GenevieveDEon (talk) 20:49, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Canada, Australia & New Zealand (along with the United Kingdom), were the only countries that were Commonwealth realms, her entire reign. Also, they've more then 'two' dignitaries each. GoodDay (talk) 21:49, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

It notice that you are the only respondent who feels we should have separate sections for each country. Therefore it might be best if I go ahead and merge the sections. Mitsuyashi (talk) 01:46, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Flag fruitsalad

Per MOS:ICON can someone explain what value the flags provide, other than decoration. Maungapohatu (talk) 18:31, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

@Maungapohatu: They serve as a quick visual guide to identify the dignitary's country.

Per MOS:FLAGCRUFT, emphasising the nationalities of the dignitaries is actually reasonable seeing as this is a list of representatives from multiple nations, and the flags are actually quite useful here. HolaQuetzalcoatl (talk) 18:55, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Macron under royalty

Royalty takes precedence over republican leaders, but since Macron is also the Co-Prince of Andorra, should he be listed under foreign royalty even though he is more widely known as the French President? HolaQuetzalcoatl (talk) 18:47, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

I would agree that there is scope to place Emmanuel Macron under royalty due to the connections with Andorra, but the question is whether we should place him once under royalty only or twice under royalty and international in the article and whether he should be accredited to both countries in an individual entry. Mitsuyashi (talk) 19:02, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

@Anotherwikipedianuser I think it is important to note that there have been several elected monarchies in the past and present which you can read about under elective monarchy. Mitsuyashi (talk) 19:36, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

@Mitsuyashi I know that. It happens that Emmanuel Macron, or any other previous President of France for that matter, is not a member of a royal house, unlike other elected monarchs, such as the King of Malaysia. Not to mention the repetition, as Emmanuel Macron is the President of France, as we all know. Anotherwikipedianuser (talk) 19:41, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

P.S.: "(...) any other previous President of France (...)", except for Louis-Napoléon Bonaparte... :) Anotherwikipedianuser (talk) 22:09, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

It's fairly clear that M Macron is attending as President of the Fifth Republic, not primarily as Co-Prince of Andorra. Mentioning him twice is entirely superfluous. GenevieveDEon (talk) 20:48, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Just because he doesn't do it "primarily" doesn't mean he doesn't even do it. _-_Alsor (talk) 21:19, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

I have doubts that it can be a "royal", even if he is a Co-Prince. In general, Andorran Co-Princes do not have, nor have had, any connection with any royal house itself. _-_Alsor (talk) 20:50, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Repetitive flags

For example: Should one UK, one CAN, one AUS & one NZ be enough, for those countries dignitaries? GoodDay (talk) 19:17, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Update: I've limited the British flag to the prime minister. The Canadian, Australian & New Zealand flags, I've limited to the governors-general & prime ministers. GoodDay (talk) 19:37, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Turkish President

I see the Turkish President has been put back on the list of International leaders after being removed. Is there independent evidence to say he is attending now? Last I saw his Foreign Sec was attending in his place. TobiasRagg2001 (talk) 22:50, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Relevance of Josip Tito reference in Introduction

I’m aware that a higher number of heads of state/government are at Her Majesty’s funeral than were at Tito’s however (correct me if I’m mistaken) but Mandela’s funeral had more HoS/G than we are expecting tomorrow. I think if this is included there needs to be more clarification. There isn’t a verified list of the most attended state funerals (again correct me if I’m wrong) TobiasRagg2001 (talk) 22:54, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

The United Kingdom is considered equal to the other Commonwealth realms

The monarchies of the commonwealth realms are independent of each other and simply in a personal union, therefore the countries of the commonwealth realms should be listed in alphabetical order rather than the UK being at the top. Mitsuyashi (talk) 02:47, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

It's not such a great leap to conclude that the UK is the core of the Commonwealth, nothing of this magnitude would exist without the UK, and that it's the UK who "runs the show", basically. Anotherwikipedianuser (talk) 02:59, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Being the oldest realm, I think the UK should be at the top. That being said, Canada should take precedence over Australia and New Zealand. HolaQuetzalcoatl (talk) 03:19, 19 September 2022 (UTC)