Talk:Russian invasion of Ukraine

Link to most recent closed and archived RfC: Talk:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine/Archive 11#RfC on Western support to Ukraine

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The heading above is a link to the RfC: Talk:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine/Archive 11#RfC on Western support to Ukraine, closed 30 December 2022.

See also earlier RfCs: Talk:2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine/Archive_9#RfC on "Supported by" in the infobox for Ukraine, closed 9 June 2022; and, Should the individual arms supplying countries be added to the infobox?: closed 6 March 2022. All RfCs were closed with "no consensus". In the most recent RfC, the closer made the following statement:

Also, can we not do this again in a couple months? There is WP:NODEADLINE, and there is sure to be plenty of academic studies and expert writings that will provide excellent context and sourcing for what, exactly, should be listed in that infobox parameter. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:04, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

Cinderella157 (talk) 06:13, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"Syria" in infobox

Syria keeps getting added to belligerents sections of tons of articles about this war, and their only reference are a couple reports from July and October by a Syria-focused human rights group (SOHR) about single-digits numbers of Syrian army members dying. The article itself (link) calls them "mercenaries" and gives zero indication they are fighting on behalf of the Assad regime. Is this really enough to justify putting "Syria", complete with flag and everything, as a supporter in the infobox? HappyWith (talk) 22:39, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Entries of this sort in the infobox are inherently contensious and have been discussed in the past without reaching a consensus. I particularly agree with your observation re Syria. I have some reservations about Iran too, since it is "not acknowledged" and largely based on a single report (ie a report attributed to a single primary source). Placing a country in the infobox is to effect making an allegation in a Wiki voice (even if there is a footnote). IMHO, we should be treating this as WP:EXCEPTIONAL if we are going to place it in the infobox. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cinderella157 (talk • contribs)

In my opinion, Iran and Syria are different when it comes to this infobox, Iran has sent drones and other equipment to Russia, as well as personnel to assist in training of Russian drone pilots, while Syria has sent nothing, the soldiers killed were Syrian Mercenaries, not soldiers, no reason to really add them in, although id agree with adding Iran, as its not "only 1 source", numerous sources documented use of Iranian drones by the Russian Armed Forces, so, adding it as supporting Russia on the infobox is appropiate. SnoopyBird (talk) 21:29, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

No, it is not appropriate. It has been repeatedly determined in discussion that listing arms suppliers (there are dozens of them) as supporters on either side is beyond the scope intended for the belligerent section of the infobox. Belarus is included because it was used as a staging ground for the invasion. Mr rnddude (talk) 05:24, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

That has not been the outcome of the most recent RfCs. It was of the early ones, when Western support was less significant than it has been now. Super Ψ Dro 15:28, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

The most recent RfC, closed December 30th, 2022, states: [t]o, I'm sure, no one's surprise, there is No Consensus to include those providing military aid as supporters in the infobox. Had there been a change in consensus, it would have been implemented. Mr rnddude (talk) 17:50, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

Seems like everyone is agreeing with this. Cinderella157 has removed Syria from this page's infobox, which is great, but this misleading kind of thing occurs across a ton of articles relating to the invasion. I don't think consensus from a few editors on this page alone can be used to justify removing it from dozens of other articles, so I'm wondering: How would I go about getting consensus about Syria in the war in general? Is this the kind of thing that I would need to start an RfC for? HappyWith (talk) 17:40, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Probably an RfC here with notifications to as many pages as can be found where it is being reported. Cinderella157 (talk) 00:36, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

I've seen the thing before where you can place a thing on talk pages that says "there's a discussion at X page that affects this one", I assume that's what I would do here. Is that an automated process, or is there some sort of template I need to manually place on all the Uk-Ru war articles that bring up Syria? I'm trying to find the guidelines or template name, but can't seem to find it. HappyWith (talk) 20:20, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

I have only seen that with a multi-page RM. Sorry, but I can only suggest a manual cut-and-paste. Cinderella157 (talk) 23:44, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

What exactly is occurring on a ton of articles? Is Syria being added to the infobox on, e.g., Battle of Bakhmut, &c? I have not seen this.  —Michael Z. 22:09, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

On second check, it appears that it's already been removed (if it was ever there) from all of them except Battle of Donbas (2022–present). HappyWith (talk) 23:34, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

Update: It's also in Southern Ukraine campaign. HappyWith (talk) 23:39, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks.

I think the Syrian flags and the named Syrian units should be removed, both from the infoboxes and the orders of battle in the article body.

I don’t mind leaving the article body in that Arestovych said that there were Syrian fighters in Ukraine, if it has due weight.  —Michael Z. 00:43, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

The Syrians were fighting as part of the Russian Wagner Group. So no reason to add Syria as a supporter to the infobox. EkoGraf (talk) 23:23, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

Would this article benefit from having a Results tab or Ongoing Results tab added to the Infobox

Both the articles for Iraq War and WWII have a Results tab or Ongoing Results tab in their Infoboxes. Would this article for the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine benefit from adding such an Ongoing Results tab added to the Infobox; it seems like being told about things like the expansion of NATO to include Sweden and Finland, the Russian annexation or Ukraine oblasts, inflation rate of 25% in Ukraine, and prospects for eventual NATO membership for Ukraine would all be interesting for Wikipedia readers to see at a glance in the Infobox. Are there suggestions for adding other Ongoing Results for such an addition to the Infobox as is currently done on Wikipedia for the Iraq War and WWII? ErnestKrause (talk) 16:12, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

Let’s make sure everything like that that should be is stated in the article first, anyway.

I can think of a hundred things, so we might spend more time arguing about what is warranted than is warranted. What criteria for inclusion in the infobox?  —Michael Z. 17:57, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

I'm for adding it if you are supporting for the 2-3 items I've listed above; if you have any to add then you could mention them here. ErnestKrause (talk) 16:46, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Per the template documentation and MOS:MIL, the result parameter is explicitly to report who won, which cannot be done until the dust settles. It is not for multiple dot points. Cinderella157 (talk) 23:33, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

That's not what is done on the Crimea annexation article for 2014 which uses a 'Results' tab, even though Ukraine still contests this. It makes sense to add something in this article since the front lines in the 2022 Russian invasion have not moved appreciably in two months now. ErnestKrause (talk) 23:54, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

That WP:OTHERSTUFFEXIST or WP:OTHERCONTENT is only a valid argument if it represents best practice evidenced by our best quality articles. If anything, the status parameter would be the place when the conflict is ongoing and then, used sparingly per WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE. None of the specific things so far mentioned, save the annexations, appear to me to be key points that should be reported in the infobox. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:21, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

As you suggest, the annexation material for four oblasts looks highly useful for the Infobox. I'd also consider the importance of new nations entering NATO as a result of the invasion and Ukraine's plans to apply for membership to NATO as well, to be useful for inclusion there. Could you or another editor formulate the best wording for it? ErnestKrause (talk) 15:47, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

Those wars are all over, this is not. AS such we do not know what the result is. Slatersteven (talk) 15:55, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

The article for 2014 annexation of Crimea is claimed to still be open by Ukraine, though the Wikiipedia article does have a Results tab in the Infobox. It looks like it would be a good idea to have one in this article here as well. Cinderella's idea to keep a comment about the 4 oblasts being annexed seems like a sound idea. Also adding the plans for NATO application from Sweden, Finland and Ukraine seems highly noteworthy as a result of the 2022 Russian invasion; both these facts are worth including in the Infobox under a Results tab or an On-going Results tab. Highly useful. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:43, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

Mzajac After nearly a week, this discussion seems to partly favor including only two of these items in a new Results tab for the Infobox, which would be the plans for NATO expansion (3 countries), and second, the annexation of the four oblasts. If you could offer a tie-breaker opinion to include it or not, and possibly add it with the best wording you can form, then I'll tey to support you? ErnestKrause (talk) 16:31, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

On the face of it, I agree that those two things are among the most important results and look to be useful in a prominent place. But the framework of guidelines and infobox constrain us. Sorry I can’t exactly offer a simple tie-breaker, but here are my thoughts:

Following the link to MOS:MIL and {{infobox military conflict}}, I see that: 1) the result parameter is not appropriate as its allowed content is virtually only either “X victory” or “inconclusive” (it’s explicitly only for the immediate outcome) but 2) the status parameter is appropriate, as I think we can all agree this is an ongoing conflict.

And “status,” by its very name, seems to point to immediate internal status of the conflict, and doesn’t sound like it would be appropriate to shoehorn global effects into it, like new NATO applications, energy prices, resulting global economic losses, &c. (This is in line with the explicitly limited scope of result.)

Another possible addition is territory. See the related example in Russo-Ukrainian War.

It appears to me that the design of the infobox template constrains us to enter immediate and local information regarding the conflict, and not its broader effects.

Given that, I think the occupation and new annexations can belong in a territory parameter. (And perhaps the content of the status field can bear some more thought about including the effects of mobilization, destruction, sanctions, and economic damage on both Russia and Ukraine, but let’s not write the article in the infobox.)  —Michael Z. 17:46, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

I'd be wary of including the annexations into a territory parameter. It can give a false impression without context that these are permanent changes, with the land going to Russia, and not political pronouncements amidst active fighting.

Perhaps these effects that editors have mentioned could be added as their own section within the article and given their relative context rather than affixed into the infobox. BogLogs (talk) 10:56, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

There's been almost no changes at the front line for nearly the last 3 months. Michael's idea sounds like a good one: Included both of the new tabs as described in his last note here on this thread. One for "Status" and one for "Territory". Every source I have seen including the Russian ones agree that the expected expansion of NATO would change the fault lines of Territoriality significantly in Europe. Supporting Michael on this. ErnestKrause (talk) 21:50, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

I disagree, there have been territorial changes even if they are far smaller than they were last summer. Additionally my main point of concern is that to list annexation as a territorial change in the infobox, will give readers the impression that this is a permanent change. The fighting is still ongoing with territory is likely to change hands and we cant use a crystal ball but we shouldn't give the impression that announced annexations are a fait accompli. BogLogs (talk) 23:04, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Also I'm not sure that listing NATO's expansion in the infobox under Territory is a good idea though I will leave that for other editors to discuss if they wish. BogLogs (talk) 23:07, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

After BogLogs statement, I'm strongly supporting Mzajac going ahead and adding the Territories tab to the Infobox; Both Russia and European sources are agreed that a 3 country expansion to NATO substantially changes the fault lines of the geopolitical Territories involved. The annexation of Crimea article in 2014 has already included a Results tab for similar data. ErnestKrause (talk) 00:30, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

I'm not saying that Nato isn't adding new member states because of the war, though that still requires final consent by all Nato members, Im just not sure that the appropriate place to list that is in the infobox of a war page on a line marked territories where they are not actively fighting. Might be better to get more community feedback before making this change IMHO. BogLogs (talk) 00:56, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Statements about territory must be absolutely clear that this is during an ongoing conflict and not anything legal or permanent.

The territory field should only contain direct and immediate effect of the conflict, not uninvolved states’ membership applications to uninvolved international organizations.  —Michael Z. 01:22, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Update article name to 2022-2023 russian invasion of Ukraine

Discuss updating the article title Ben Dyson 64 (talk) 07:38, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

See above, this has been discussed at considerable length in the last month and consensus couldn’t be achieved. Tracland (talk) 10:35, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

See Talk:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine/Archive 12#Requested move 31 December 2022 with what appears to be exactly the same proposal and closed as "no consensus". Cinderella157 (talk) 09:21, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Conflict map resolution

Even at the highest resolution available in details section, many location names are totally unreadable. Suggest that even higher resolutions be provided in the details section as to provide complete readability. Oceanic84 (talk) 19:22, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

There are several maps used in this article, which ones are you pointing out? ErnestKrause (talk) 01:31, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

The main map is a rendering of a (resolution-free) vector SVG file. If you click through it to the file page File:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine.svg, then select “Original file,”[1] you will be viewing the vector file that you can zoom in on without limits.  —Michael Z. 18:07, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

"Since September 2022:" should be removed as minisformation and original research and replaced by total estimates and claims not involving any original-research calculations whatsoever

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Right now the infobox is really badly misinforming anyone looking for information and not knowing better. One reason is Russian forces have received all sorts of reinforcements other than the mobilized (and there were also notoriously massive mobilizations in the People's Republics, separate from the so-called Partial Mobilization and going for very long before the annexation, since day 1 and actually having started even earlier).

Reason two, even the actual number of the Partially Mobilized is really unknown and 300,000 is just an official claim (this isn't being noted) - and the very same official claim says most of them haven't been deployed yet but are training in Belarus and elsewhere (which isnt being noted too, while using the official number). Also for example according to Ukraine (Reznikov) it's 500,000 and not 300,000 (and they are the backbone of the 500,000 that Ukraine days are now concentrated in Belarus poised to attack again from the north). And Wagner are not just a part of the 50,000 merc reinforcement s (the infobox's "including"), but there are 50,000 Wagner in Ukraine [2], Wagner alone, not including the other Russian mercenary groups.

Then there were other reinforcements, plus there were also replacements, which either could replace the losses or could not (in which case the total umber decreased), and still then again there were unit withdrawals, and unit rotations. All sorts of factors, which are not covered by the current simplistic original research adding just Wagner (incomplete) and the Partially Mobilized (probably incomplete), but it doesn't mean this should not be tried to be calculated by more original research. Just don't do any original research at all. So, remove all this misleading original research and use only the available total estimates of the total strenght (and losses), clearly attributing the estimates and claims to their sources and noting the timing of these (with "(as of [date])").

And also remember to remove all such original research by Wikipedia editors trying to figure out any (any whatsoever) figures on their own from every operation and battle. If there are no total estimates/claims available (from reliable sources or official sources), for both strenght and losses (also with dates), wrote just "Unknown" truthfully instead of any original-research calculating attempts. For example: the current American intelligence estimate as of 31/1/2023 is 188,000 Russian blood casualties since 24/1/2022 ([3] - and here the article talks about "soldiers", and mentions the Russian defense ministry, but the estimate is about all the Russian personnel, both soldiers and any other other gunmen). ONLY ever use the total estimates and claims like that's, without ever trying to calculated ANYTHING on your own. Otherwise: "Unknown". And since we talk about the wording here, it wasn't just "armed forces". It's a minunderstanding, as if the "Special Military Operation" was really just an exclusively "military operation", which it was never at all. Instead Russia has been using lots of personnel not belonging to the defense ministry but to other ministries and others still, among them private armies even besides Wagner - such as the many various formations of Kadyrov men, the Redut mercenaries, a small contingent of South Ossetian separatists, or the Russian-Cossack militias, and so on, and all of which aren't even mentioned in the infobox. And the People's Republic's "militias" (various forces including armed forces, the Armed Forces of Novorossiya) have since all became official Russian forces (too various ministries, not just the armed forces - such as the LNR and DNR police forces being now the Russian police units officially). 94.254.153.61 (talk) 19:52, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Oh, and I just checked the reference used for the "Since September" claims in the infobox ([4] twice) - it's falsification, the numbers "50,000" and "300,000" can't be even found in the source at all (shich is not surprising, since these numbers are wrong). There's no mention of neither "Wagner" or "mercenaries" in ge eral in this source too - just a total (100%) falsicification by whoever out it there, and no one ever checked.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.254.153.61 (talk) 20:08, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Losses on both side

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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As the first year of the Russia-Ukraine war is approaching, the war losses claimed by Israeli intelligence reveal the terrible dimensions of the war. Allegedly, the field data of January 14, 2023, based on Israeli intelligence, is listed as follows: RUSSIA: Russian losses in the field with 418 thousand soldiers (plus 3,500,000 reservists) and the increasing number of Wagner mercenaries: 23 Planes 56 helicopter 200 (S)UAV 889 Tanks and armored vehicles 427 Howitzer (Artillery systems) 12 Air defense system 18,480 dead 44,500 Injured 323 Captive

UKRAINE: The casualties of Ukraine, which was in the field with 734 thousand soldiers (plus 100 thousand reservists) and NATO officers, soldiers and mercenaries, are as follows: 302 Aircraft 212 Helicopter 2.750 (S)UAV 6,320 Tanks and armored vehicles 7.360 Howitzer (Artillery systems) 497 Air defense system 157,000 Dead 234,000 injured 17,230 Captive 234 Dead – NATO military trainers (US and UK) 2,458 Dead – NATO soldiers (Germany, Poland, Lithuania, ...) 5,360 Dead – Mercenaries

Source: 188.120.100.28 (talk) 20:18, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

Nice argument, but can you provide a source, and are you sure it's accurate? You say it's claimed by Israeli intelligence but I have trouble finding such statistics from Jan 14. Please link said report or at least link where you got the statistics from to make it easier to find said report.

I also have to question the accuracy of said statistics given it states literally almost a quarter of Ukraine's entire military force is KIA and almost half their entire military force is out of commission (including KIA). I'm not saying it's impossible this is the case, but it is extremely unlikely due to the fact a military that can't use half its troops would be lucky to still be on the defensive, much less still be capable of offensive action like we're seeing in practice. Not to mention it states only 18K dead on Russia's side. If there were 10 Ukrainians KIA for every 1 Russian KIA, this would be among the most (if not the most) objectively one sided wars in history involving a conflict of this size and length, only outdone by conflicts fought in the times of ancient Rome.

Given all the circumstances, either there isn't a report, you misread the report, or the report is heavily inaccurate. Nice argument (talk) 14:43, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 5 February 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Procedural close. This proposal is identical to the last proposal from December-January. In particular, while the overall result of that discussion was no consensus, there was clear consensus against the specific "2022-2023" formulation, with a plurality of pro-move editors favoring "2022-present" even before wholesale opposition to the move is considered. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 00:15, 6 February 2023 (UTC) ~~~~

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2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine → 2022-2023 Russian invasion of Ukraine – The invasion has lasted into 2023. I propose renaming the article to avoid implying it was only in 2022. Quarl ^(talk) 21:46, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

• Speedy close the same move proposal was closed less than a month ago [5] with no consensus reached. There is no reasonable reason to believe that there will be a different result. While I do not believe this to be other than well intended, to continue might reasonably be seen as disruptive. Cinderella157 (talk) 00:07, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Close per Cinderella157 🍁🏳️‍🌈 DinoSoupCanada 🏳️‍🌈 🍁 (talk) 00:13, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Changing title

I suggest changing the title from “2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine” to “Russo-Ukrainian War” because the russo-ukrainian war started in 2022 with the invasion that ended in April 2022 with the Southeastern phase of the war. We should create another page for the 2022 invasion! Check out my talk section on the “Russo-Ukrainian War” page. TankDude2000 (talk) 15:22, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

See the umpteen threads we have already had about this, and WP:JUSTDROPIT. Slatersteven (talk) 15:23, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

It may be useful to add a new top item in "Frequently asked" above which states that any editor must first read all 3 "no consensus" RFCs from last year before posting a name change request yet again. ErnestKrause (talk) 00:23, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Agreed with ErnestKrause, this probably needs to be added to the FAQs as it is a recurring request and could probably be better dealt with as a FAQ rather than having to continually have the same debate. However, not sure how that interacts with the fact that consensus could not be achieved last time this was debated. I believe this is a well intentioned comment and I don't think WP:JUSTDROPIT is really in point as the various requests have been from different users and there is no evidence that these are not honest separate requests. It's just one of those things that will come up a lot unless a consensus is reached and / or something is included in the FAQs to guide people not to make the same request.Tracland (talk) 07:57, 8 February 2023 (UTC)