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:::{{tq|check this unbelievable case}} You are arguing that something may be dangerous because something else turned out to be dangerous. That is whataboutism, purely nonsensical reasoning, which is typical for denialists. --[[User:Hob Gadling|Hob Gadling]] ([[User talk:Hob Gadling|talk]]) 07:14, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
:::{{tq|check this unbelievable case}} You are arguing that something may be dangerous because something else turned out to be dangerous. That is whataboutism, purely nonsensical reasoning, which is typical for denialists. --[[User:Hob Gadling|Hob Gadling]] ([[User talk:Hob Gadling|talk]]) 07:14, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
:::Radioactive isotope exposure has nothing to do with GMO and food testing and approval methods avoids using the general population as a trial experiment. If there are actual adverse effects with a product, it can be evaluated and recalled. The denialism includes ignorance and/or dismissing all of that. The current section could use improvements in my opinion but appears to have its place in this article. Anti-GMO arguments have been pushed a long time without credible evidence to kill the science. Please read the infobox at the top of this talk page reflecting Wikipedia's experience with the topic... —[[User:PaleoNeonate|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;color:#44a;text-shadow:2px 2px 3px DimGray;">Paleo</span>]][[User talk:PaleoNeonate|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;color:#272;text-shadow:2px 2px 3px DimGray;">Neonate</span>]] – 11:21, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
:::Radioactive isotope exposure has nothing to do with GMO and food testing and approval methods avoids using the general population as a trial experiment. If there are actual adverse effects with a product, it can be evaluated and recalled. The denialism includes ignorance and/or dismissing all of that. The current section could use improvements in my opinion but appears to have its place in this article. Anti-GMO arguments have been pushed a long time without credible evidence to kill the science. Please read the infobox at the top of this talk page reflecting Wikipedia's experience with the topic... —[[User:PaleoNeonate|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;color:#44a;text-shadow:2px 2px 3px DimGray;">Paleo</span>]][[User talk:PaleoNeonate|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;color:#272;text-shadow:2px 2px 3px DimGray;">Neonate</span>]] – 11:21, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
::::You may want to read the article “Straw man” because attacking another argument than the one I posted is “typical” for “denialists”.
::::I’m neither against GM food nor against technology. I’m against people who call denialism something that it's not yet a FACT but an issue controversial enough to involve governments and millions of people.
::::It wasn’t me who wrote “each GM food needs to be tested on a case-by-case basis before introduction” but the author of the article and the “reliable sources” you're all referring to.
::::
::::My reference to the “Radium Girls” doesn’t mean that “Radioactive isotopes” have anything to do with GMOs. It means that when ignorance about the possible negative effects of a recent technology or whatever new discovery is not out of the question, the technology cannot be called with 100% certainty safe so to call those who challenge it denialists.
::::
::::Anyway, I’m giving up on my argument!
::::It was my mistake after a decade to get again involved with editing Wikipedia. Endless discussions about issues that are self-contradicting yet invisible to anyone who has set up his mind to ignore the obvious. And the obvious is that you can't describe as denialism something that is NOT YET A SOLID FACT but controversial on a massive scale. [[User:Entropy1963|Entropy1963]] ([[User talk:Entropy1963|talk]]) 16:48, 21 June 2023 (UTC)


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Revision as of 16:48, 21 June 2023


Reference troubles and an underlying concern

As far as I can tell, Reference 1 is a newspaper book review of Reference 19, which is itself a journalist's account. Therefore, this article does not actually appear to cite any standard "psychological" definition of denialism (I have searched in vain for such a thing). While there are clearly an array of examples of organized prevarication and/or overeager, self-serving credulity that can be gathered under some generic heading, how do we proceed if "denialism" is effectively a pseudoscientific claim in itself, or just a popular meme, rather than a formally documented, diagnosable behavior or tendency? If one follows the chain of references far enough, most of the concept is ultimately based on blog posts by the brothers Hoofnagle (e.g., Refs 12 and 34), each of whom has impressive credentials —— just not in psychology or sociology, as might be expected. Alas, some of them even loop back to this Wikipedia article. Anekeia (talk) 01:39, 20 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"Deny, deny, deny" (defense strategy, politics)

Denial as a political and defense strategy is both IRL widespread and non properly covered on Wikipedia ifaik. Trump, but also Biden, Macron, Putin, all use it to spread doubt event when solid observables (=facts) are presented. The communicative, political, strategic side of denial deserves better coverage. Yug (talk) 🐲 11:26, 29 September 2021 (UTC) (Note: I keep this article creation in mind for myself as well but I'am already loaded with other articles)[reply]

Genetically Modified Food controversies more genuinely controversial than presented here

Food, agriculture related ecology and dietary health are more complex topics than the suggestion in this article that opposition to GMOs is denialist implies.

Evidence of recent findings concerning the impact of varied diet on human microbiome diversity and consequent health outcomes implies an emergent and relevant area of knowledge. GMO cropping systems seem likely to come under this developing area of scientific scrutiny. Application of the precautionary principle until more is known can't impartially be described as 'denialist'.

Some of this food impacted gut biome emerging research is linked here: [1]

The article on Genetically Modified Food Controversies: <ref> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetically_modified_food_controversies <ref> seems more impartial.

Therefore, this section of the denialism article doesn't appear to belong here, as if it remains, inclusion will reasonably be considered controversial until a wider consensus can be achieved.

Unless a persuasive argument for keeping this section appears in response, I will attempt removal of this section. Copsewood (talk) 11:54, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The article already says, There is a scientific consensus [..] that each GM food needs to be tested on a case-by-case basis before introduction. The article you linked says nothing about GMOs in general, it does not even contain the words "GMO", "genetic" or "modified" in any combination, so there seems to be no contradiction or even relation to the fact that resistance to GMOs is denialism. --Hob Gadling (talk) 15:26, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Your comment is correct but not persuasive.
Only the fact that “each GM food needs to be tested on a case-by-case basis before introduction” is enough to get this example away from the article about Denialism.
You may want to check this unbelievable case (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radium_Girls) to understand what “needs to be scientifically tested” means.
I agree that this section needs to be removed. Entropy1963 (talk) 19:48, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Update: just after posting my comment, I received a message from user Tryptofish that on this page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Genetically_modified_organisms a huge discussion already exists related to this wording I mentioned in my post.
Only for this reason this section needs to be removed from the article about Denialism for denying, or challenging, ambiguous concepts is not Denialism but a healthy standpoint.
I will remove it myself tomorrow believing that it's better to discuss here whether to include this section than to remove it. Entropy1963 (talk) 06:36, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia articles are based on reliable sources, not on the mere existence of a discussion on some other Wikipedia talk page. --Hob Gadling (talk) 07:14, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Only the fact that “each GM food needs to be tested on a case-by-case basis before introduction” is enough to get this example away from the article about Denialism Reliable sources disagree with you. Reliable sources win.
check this unbelievable case You are arguing that something may be dangerous because something else turned out to be dangerous. That is whataboutism, purely nonsensical reasoning, which is typical for denialists. --Hob Gadling (talk) 07:14, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Radioactive isotope exposure has nothing to do with GMO and food testing and approval methods avoids using the general population as a trial experiment. If there are actual adverse effects with a product, it can be evaluated and recalled. The denialism includes ignorance and/or dismissing all of that. The current section could use improvements in my opinion but appears to have its place in this article. Anti-GMO arguments have been pushed a long time without credible evidence to kill the science. Please read the infobox at the top of this talk page reflecting Wikipedia's experience with the topic... —PaleoNeonate11:21, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You may want to read the article “Straw man” because attacking another argument than the one I posted is “typical” for “denialists”.
I’m neither against GM food nor against technology. I’m against people who call denialism something that it's not yet a FACT but an issue controversial enough to involve governments and millions of people.
It wasn’t me who wrote “each GM food needs to be tested on a case-by-case basis before introduction” but the author of the article and the “reliable sources” you're all referring to.
My reference to the “Radium Girls” doesn’t mean that “Radioactive isotopes” have anything to do with GMOs. It means that when ignorance about the possible negative effects of a recent technology or whatever new discovery is not out of the question, the technology cannot be called with 100% certainty safe so to call those who challenge it denialists.
Anyway, I’m giving up on my argument!
It was my mistake after a decade to get again involved with editing Wikipedia. Endless discussions about issues that are self-contradicting yet invisible to anyone who has set up his mind to ignore the obvious. And the obvious is that you can't describe as denialism something that is NOT YET A SOLID FACT but controversial on a massive scale. Entropy1963 (talk) 16:48, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Current example

Herbalism / Traditional Chinese medicine / alternative medicine - Millennia of experimentation, sheafs of studies, but it gets shut down a lot by some Western (for example) cultures. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.58.19.167 (talk) 04:26, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This is not an example of denialism. If anything is scientifically verified & medically useful, it's just "medicine." — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 15:11, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]