Talk:2024 United States presidential election

Abortion access is a left-wing term

Should be called "abortion issue" in a neutral way. "Abortion access" sounds like license to murder, "murder license". 62.226.95.222 (talk) 18:38, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Do you have a citation for any of this or it it your personal opinion? Bkatcher (talk) 19:07, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

RfC: Polling criteria for “major candidate” status

The current consensus for being considered a “major candidate” for this article and listed in the table is a candidate must meet one of the following criteria: being listed in 5 national polls, substantial media coverage, or holding significant elected office. Should the polling criteria remain? Now that the first Republican debate took place, I feel it is appropriate to revisit this question. Prcc27 (talk) 04:17, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

• No: The polling criteria has forced us to give undue weight to candidates with minimal media coverage. Even though I thought the polling criteria was flawed, I previously argued that it would be unfair to remove the criteria right after someone (Perry Johnson) qualified, so I said let’s at least keep him as a “major” candidate and see if he qualifies for the debates. After all, polling could be an indicator of whether one will or will not qualify for a debate. Given that the GOP actually has polling as one of their criteria for qualifying for the debates, I think that our polling criteria is obsolete. The new criteria should be substantial media coverage, holding significant elected office, or having qualified for at least 1 party sanctioned debate. Prcc27 (talk) 04:28, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

  The problem with your criteria is that candidates like Hurd, Elder and Suarez would be included in the same section as candidates like John Anthony Castro and Steve Laffey who are vastly less notable than Hurd, Elder and Suarez. Yes, all of the three are vastly less notable Trump and maybe even DeSantis, but this will make them a lot less notable than they actually are Punker85 (talk) 16:46, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

  Not true. A candidate would only have to meet one of the criteria. Elder, Hurd, and Suarez already meet the “substantial media coverage” criterion, and their status as “major candidates” would be unaffected by this change. In fact, Perry Johnson may even qualify as a “major” candidate, even without the polling criteria if he has enough media coverage. Prcc27 (talk) 17:55, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

  Ah yes, you are right, I'm dumb

  But also, having enough media coverage is a very vague criteria, so it would be very difficult to admit someone who doesn't an obviously big media coverage Punker85 (talk) 19:15, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

• Yes: For a few reasons. First, changing the criteria mid election cycle will encourage editors to try and change the criteria when they don't like it's application. Then we get a lot of RFCs. We need to have an RFC after the cycle to discuss tightening our criteria, not multiple throughout the cycle. Second, it's not WP:UNDUE to mention the fact the candidates ran and tried to make it to the debates. There was a lot of national coverage of it. Remember the major candidates are just people that ran a notable campaign, it's not meant to be a list of the only candidates with a shot of winning. Finally, candidates are going to start dropping out over the next few months so it will naturally narrow down, we don't need to narrow our criteria. The field will narrow itself.

TulsaPoliticsFan (talk) 04:51, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Consensus can change. I agree, it would have been wrong to change the criteria a while back, but the election cycle changes, and our article should as well to reflect the reality of who is and isn’t a “major” candidate. If it wasn’t clear then that some of these candidates aren’t major candidates, it should be crystal clear now. It is undue, because we are treating candidates as “major” when most reliable sources do not agree with our assessment. It is pretty telling that two of the candidates that qualified under the polling criteria were obvious outliers even by Wikipedia standards (e.g. Perry Johnson did not have a portrait on our article for a significant amount of time, and Ryan Binkley did not have a Wikipedia article until a few days ago). “The field will narrow itself” is irrelevant. We will likely have a section for candidates that withdraw, and only candidates that are actually major should get a portrait in that section, if a gallery is included in that section. Prcc27 (talk) 05:35, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

The Johnson portrait and Binkley arguments are two WP:OTHERCONTENT arguments. Johnson not having a copyright free photo available had nothing to do with whether or not he is a major candidate. On the Binkley argument, the standards for being a notable political candidate and general notability guidelines are different. Binkley had an article, but it was AFDed and deleted. Both arguments are WP:OTHERCONTENT, that don't focus on the sources, but other stuff internal to Wikipedia. Sometimes you're just missing a photo or someone you want to link just isn't notable enough for their own article when you're editing on Wikipedia. Those things just happen on here sometimes. TulsaPoliticsFan (talk) 05:49, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

The “othercontent” essay aside, “coincidence” or not, the candidates that have qualified under the polling criteria have been outliers when it comes to media coverage when compared to the other candidates currently listed as “major”. Is there any reliable source that considers those two candidates to be “major” or at least treats them as serious candidates? Prcc27 (talk) 06:00, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Politico includes them both in their rundown of campaigns seriously trying to make the debate. There are sources on both campaigns and they both tried to seriously run. Johnson is honestly probably getting more coverage than Will Hurd and maybe even Larry Elder at this point. Binkley would be the absolute lowest tier candidate of the majors, but he does appear to be running a major campaign compared to the candidates in our minor candidates section. TulsaPoliticsFan (talk) 06:18, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

If Perry Johnson is getting substantial media coverage, then obviously he would get to stay in the table. I am fine with that, but the polling criteria is problematic. Unfortunately, I suspect part of the reason he is getting more coverage is because he was included in our table on Wikipedia. I hope I’m wrong, but it is possible. Prcc27 (talk) 16:22, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

According to the views of his page, it went up by a lot when he was included in the table but was strangely at 0 before that and, according to Google trends, his inclusion seems to had little to no impact Punker85 (talk) 17:06, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

The BBC, Vox and maybe Axios considered both of them as "major"

CNN, NBC News and the Associated Press considered Johnson as "major" Punker85 (talk) 15:27, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

The CNN one is debatable.. Those are candidates listed in the “poll of polls”. It means those candidates are included in polls, which obviously isn’t surprising because they did meet our current polling criteria. It does not necessarily mean that they are considered “major” by CNN. Prcc27 (talk) 16:15, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

• Yes but a very unenthusiastic yes from me. I was a proponent of the 5-poll criterion, and I don't believe in manipulating the criteria during the campaign in order to include or exclude specific candidates from the "major" category. But I would not support a 5-poll criterion for future campaigns since it allowed Perry Johnson and Ryan Binkley to be categorized as major candidates, which I would consider a failure of the criterion. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 15:54, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

  I totally respect your perspective, but just want to offer a counter perspective that the criterion worked well in regards to Johnson and Binkley. If you look at a lot of the media coverage leading up to the debate, I don't think it's wrong to say Johnson was a major candidate during the summer of 2023 while pushing to make the debate stage. Binkley was a major candidate for a few weeks as he pushed for donations and polling to make the debate stage. Are these campaigns historic? Not in the slightest, but there is enough coverage to meet verifiable requirements without original research. There's not a neutral point of view or WP:UNDUE problem with mentioning the fact their campaigns happened and briefly were discussed in good sources. They aren't getting paragraph's of texts like Biden, Trump, or Desantis. They're getting sentences, mentions, and table summaries, which the coverage warrants. TulsaPoliticsFan (talk) 19:29, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

  The requirement should be media coverage, full stop. Even if the current candidates that qualified by polling have significant media coverage (that’s debatable) that doesn’t change the fact that someone else with little to no media coverage could be listed in 5 national polls in the near future, and we would be forced to call them “major candidates”. If Binkley and Johnson already have substantial media coverage, there shouldn’t be an issue with removing the polling requirement. Prcc27 (talk) 19:47, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

  In theory, I fully agree with you; but in practice we almost never agree on what substantial media coverage means. Check the 2024 Republican Party presidential primaries talk archives if you don't believe me. People have argued things from 5 to 20 sources and there's no consensus on what it means. It's too ambiguous. We need some objective criteria to help ground our discussions or we'll have endless debates on what constitutes substantial media coverage. TulsaPoliticsFan (talk) 19:58, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

  If we want to define what “substantial media coverage” is, by all means, let’s have that discussion. That is not what this RfC is about, however. “5 national polls” is not an objective criteria, and there is also debate on what that actually means. Does that mean 5 different pollsters, or can all 5 polls be from Gallup and you qualify? What about polls affiliated with a candidate, are those included or excluded? Which polls are reliable and which ones should be excluded? Should you at least have to poll at 1%, or is simply being included in a poll all that matters? Prcc27 (talk) 21:42, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

  The Plain language reading is pretty clear and objective: 5 national polls. Any national poll from a source that would be a WP:RS (because our general content policies still apply). I think I advocated for adding independent the last time we talked about it, but I think people thought the RS policy would keep out affiliated polling. But to answer you're questions:

  • 5 polls from Gallup or Morning Consul would qualify you (this did not happen, and is hypothetical strawman)
  • Polls affiliated with a candidate would not meet WP:RS and be excluded.
  • Polls that qualify as WP:RS.
  • Being included is the metric.

  TulsaPoliticsFan (talk) 22:13, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

  It is not a hypothetical strawman. I am relaying the concerns another user made, when Perry Johnson qualified with 5 polls, but some of them were from the same pollster. A user suggested the criterion should be 5 different polls. The point is, there is disagreement on what the 5 national polls criteria means or should entail. The “substantial media coverage” criterion is not the only one being disputed, so let’s not pretend that it is. Prcc27 (talk) 22:44, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

• Yes Five polls might even be too little. The whole point of separating out the major from the minor candidates is so that Wikipedia doesn't put undue weight on people who have no chance to even compete. If they can't even muster a consistent, above zero, presence on the polls, why should they be counted as a major candidate? Scu ba (talk) 02:12, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

  @Scu ba I’m confused. So do you support the current 5 poll criteria or oppose it? Or are you saying it should be changed/modified..? Under the current criteria, a candidate can poll at 0% in 5 nationals polls, and we would be forced to call that candidate “major”, even if they have not polled at 1% in any polls. “If they can't even muster a consistent, above zero, presence on the polls, why should they be counted as a major candidate?” That sentence would make sense, if the inclusion requirement was you have to have substantial media coverage and be included in 5 polls. But currently, the criteria is you have to have substantial media coverage or be included in 5 polls; you don’t have to meet both criteria. I wouldn’t have a problem with the criteria if you had to meet the polling requirement and another criterion; but calling someone “major” with hardly any media coverage just because they were included in 5 polls is problematic. As I said before, qualifying for a debate should suffice, especially since on the Republican side, you already have to meet a polling threshold in order to qualify. Prcc27 (talk) 15:11, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

  As it stands now, I support the 5 poll criteria because that is the agreed upon consensus. Am I absolutely thrilled about it? No. I am fine with the Five Polls or Significant Media, sorry if that was confusing. The only qualm I have with the debate criteria being Wikipedia's criteria is that is a little too stringent, namely because it doesn't take into consideration Hurd or Suraez who I feel like are the "major minor candidates" Scu ba (talk) 20:43, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

  Thank you for clarifying. Hurd and Suarez already meet the “substantial media coverage” criterion, so if a debate requirement replaced a polling requirement– they would still be able to continue to remain in the table. Prcc27 (talk) 00:29, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

• No This idea requiring being seen in a national poll is biased. It is already known that those who do make the national polls, only put candidate names that they think have a chance to win, thus the reason behind the 'Others' listing. By putting this as a rule here, it would just carry over that specific bias, where the norm for Wikipedia is to be unbiased when ever possible. Aceing_Winter_Snows_Harsh_Cold (talk) 03:51, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 August 2023

The link for Ryan Binkley on this page is not the official link to his actual page when you hover over his name. His page appears whenever you click the link, but if you hover over it, you get simple:Ryan Binkley, not the overview of the official page, like with the other candidates. 206.246.7.180 (talk) 14:05, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

 Not done. The main Wikipedia article for Binkley is only in draft form, so the link to Wikipedia's "simple English" version is all that is currently available. The hovering result you describe is not under our control. If and when the draft article is accepted, this will change. --Spiffy sperry (talk) 14:30, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Ryan Binkley does not have a wikipedia article, only a "simple english" wikipedia article, which should be RfDed. Scu ba (talk) 02:14, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Suarez dropped out

Not sure how to make the new table but yeah YangGang2024 (talk) 17:10, 29 August 2023 (UTC)