Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia Signpost/2023-09-16/News and notes

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• It's sad that, three weeks on, the lengthy and painful Smallcat dispute at ArbCom hasn't had a mention in the Signpost: it led to the departure of a long-standing and prolific editor who will be missed by many editors. Last month's "News and notes" said it was compiled in a hurry, and was only 5 days after the end of the case, but I was surprised not to see a mention this time. (I know, "Sofixit", but I don't have the energy to produce a calm neutral summary of those weeks and walls of text.) PamD 07:24, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
  • There's a rather special one ongoing, too. We'll see. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:14, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
• On a side note, is it just me, or has the AfI project slowed down as of late? I've been nominating a few articles myself, but I've noticed there's not much interaction over there... Oltrepier (talk) 08:18, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

  AFI has definitely been struggling, but not just recently. Its processes are highly automated, thanks to excellent work by MusikAnimal, so it can run on a skeleton crew, but there just hasn't been participation. The nomination process is the most active part, but even there, there isn't a sufficient stable of regulars to help build a good culture (I'd ideally like to see it become a place that helps reduce systemic bias rather than becoming cluttered with nominations of articles in editors' favorite subject areas, which has the opposite effect). And then the articles that do become AFI barely get any attention. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 16:28, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

• One more global ban: m:Special:CentralAuth/Mykytal 14 August 2023 --ssr (talk) 12:41, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

  This account is a sock of a banned user, as it was not locked by WMF and m:List of globally banned users doesn't include this account. Thanks. SCP-2000 16:44, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

"Some initiatives have caused controversy, such as the $20,000 project on Deforestation in Nigeria". More of that under discission here: User talk:BilledMammal/2023 Wikimedia RfC. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:15, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

AARoads

• AARoads is interesting. Let's assume they succeed and are better than Wikipedia versions - more up to date, comprehensive. In theory we can copy their content, but this is difficult to maintain, merging diffs would be a hell that never ends. Another possibility is to simply join them ie. redirect our pages to their Wiki. If users want to contribute, they log in there. Like an Empire that is absorbing but not eliminating cultures it encounters. All roads lead to Rome (Wikipedia) but not all Roman territory is strictly Roman culture. -- GreenC 05:20, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
  • I think the general consensus is that most of these roads are entirely mundane and it's unreasonable for an encyclopedia to maintain articles on them when there's virtually no meaningful coverage beyond "it appeared in an atlas". Frustration with that fact is what prompted them to leave in the first place. If this fork means less volunteer energy is spent on maintaining hollow articles, then I say it's a positive. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 05:33, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
    • Yes, AfD was probably hard on them like many topics (sports, BLPs, small organizations). How this information gets used and how important it is has been totally upended by generative AI. Wikipedia basis notability on a somewhat outdated model, that of the attention economy: if people paid attention to it (sources) it is notable. However AI requires high quality input data, and sites like AARoads provide that. The more data AI has, the better. Gaps in knowledge reduce effectiveness. AI is not the only use of this data, but it is a good example how the Wikipedia model of notability is limiting knowledge. -- GreenC 15:32, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

      @GreenC, AfD isn't being hard on roads and sports. It's starting to require them to meet the same standards as any other topic, which to them feels like persecution because they're accustomed to not having to do so. Why there weren't equitable standards in the first place is, of course, totally unknowable. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 15:59, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

      Regarding the data argument, a wider scope won't lead to higher-quality content unless there are more contributors. In fact, generally the opposite, since more dispersed content is harder to maintain. And there's no reason to believe that AARoads will have more contributors than the roads wikiproject, especially since it doesn't have all of Wikipedia's built-in advantages (e.g. an established readership base, SEO preference, etc.) and will have to compete with Wikipedia. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 16:04, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

    @Thebiguglyalien, the problem is that the AARoads wiki won't just have the non-notable roads, but also duplicates of the notable ones on Wikipedia. It's the classic problem of wasted effort you get with any fork, and it's overall bad for the information landscape. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 16:06, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

    If general consensus is that most of these roads are entirely mundane, then it sounds like the "general consensus" is to delete almost all of them. So this duplication of content seems to be a red herring.

    AARoads has been around since 2000 - longer than Wikipedia, has an established readership base, and already has new non-Wikipedia contributors.

    At some point, as more and more of these subject-specific forks emerge, I would suggest reconsidering this crusade on notability. Rschen7754 21:59, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Global Council

Unless there are structural reforms of the By Laws / WMF so that 100% of WMF (except Jimbo) is elected by the community and only the community can change the byLaws, the Global Council is another way to get WMF back on course and keep it there. The Global Council should start out as equal authority to WMF and after it matures to be fully stable representative of the community, it should have authority over and direct WMF. Only "advisory" to WMF makes the whole Global Council idea pointless. North8000 (talk) 13:35, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

• As "external legal feedback" implies, it would be very, very difficult - likely impossible - for the WMF to give up total control, especially for some very basic functions such as fund raising, spending money, electing board members. This applies to any US corporation, and likely all non-US corporations and for-profit corps, the board has some functions that they just can't give away. My question is "who told you that they would be giving these functions away?" If they did do this, you were being misled, so please name specific people and include diffs. The other side of the question is "have you just been misleading yourselves?" Sorry to be so direct, but somebody has to be. The board cannot give up control of several major functions, to anonymous people (who might perhaps be sockpuppets) who might be elected anonymously, in order that the foundation can be responsible for dealing with the outside world, which would like to know that we're being legally responsible, paying our bills, and trying to fulfill our stated purpose. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 18:23, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

  @Jan-Bart, André Costa (WMSE), Nicola Zeuner (WMDE), and The Land: Any comment?

  (One thing worth noting here is that Wikimedia Germany is a membership organisation where the members vote for the board – unlike the WMF, which has always argued that a membership organisation is not feasible for the Wikimedia movement.) Andreas JN466 22:31, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

  • Just one thing about my last sentence above. I realize now that some people might read it as if I am assuming that Global Council members are sockpuppets or similar. What I mean is that the WMF board is responsible for making sure that their members are responsible people with their real names disclosed, i.e. the WMF board must vet them. If the Global Council has a disagreement with the WMF on how to vet board members, then the WMF vetting method must be followed. That function must be done with WMF approval.
  • I'm not sure what the Wikimedia Germany factoid is supposed to mean. WMDE is a membership organization for one country that's supposed to aid German residents (about 1% of world population) edit Wikipedia projects - concentrating on the German WP version most likely. The WMF is responsible for setting up all WMF projects and helping anybody in the world to edit them, as well as providing the infrastructure. The comparing of these responsibilities is like comparing an apple orchard to a couple of orange seeds. How would you possibly run a membership organization where anybody in the world can join at anytime? BTW, in my experience the WMF is much more transparent that than WMDE, e.g. with finances. Maybe it's because I don't speak German, but I can't even find their basic financial statements (can anybody give me a link?) Smallbones_(smalltalk) 00:55, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Smallbones, "Candidates must meet the voter eligibility criteria for WMF Board of Trustees elections to file nomination". The Drafting Committee is not anonymous. I assume that neither will the Global Council be anonymous. You should stop using your Signpost platform for spreading disinformation. – wbm1058 (talk) 03:36, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

@Smallbones: I don't even know where to begin.

• Finances: May I recommend m:Wikimedia_Deutschland where you'll find information in English, including links to the financial reports. (Wikimedia Germany's finances are a lot more transparent than those of the Wikimedia Endowment ... and unlike the WMF, it has committed to publishing the current salaries of its top management, in English and German.)
• Wikimedia Germany is an organisation with over 100,000 members, a staff headcount of close to 200 people (comparable to the size of the WMF a few years ago) and international movement responsibilities. The development of Wikidata e.g. was mainly driven by Wikimedia Germany.
• You do not have to be German to become a member of Wikimedia Germany. And the US represents about 4% of the world's population ... Seen from that perspective, both Germany and the US are grossly overrepresented in the Wikimedia movement's organisational footprint.

Andreas JN466 07:44, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

This would essentially be equivalent to making the board 100% community appointed, so perhaps we should focus on adding some community representation on the board?

Except wait, 8/16 seats on the WMF board are elected by the community, 7/16 are appointed by the rest, and 1/16 is Jimbo! [1]

I think the system as it stands works well. It's poor form to not have any independent directors (i.e. 100% community) as outside uninterested perspectives help prevent corruption or self-dealing, as well as grants diverse perspectives. Look at how many admins on the English Wikipedia have been desysopped because they played buddy-buddy with certain people. Someone appointed from outside doesn't have the connections within the community to have conflicts of interest like that. They can also bring perspectives from other non-profits or corporations on ways to make our movement better, reducing groupthink.

Also, elections don't always lead to diverse candidates. Looking at the elected positions, all but 1 are from Western Europe or North America. There are no elected board members who are from India, Pakistan, Africa, or South America. Makes sense, given that Western Europe and North America hold our strongest communities. However, we do have appointed board members from South America and India. Being perfectly representative of our community is a disadvantage here, as we also want representation from the communities that we wish to expand into. The Global South is projected to be most of the world's population growth into the future. If we want to be a sustainable movement, we need to target that. But we haven't been nearly as effective as we could have been as evidenced by the subheading WMF reconsiders Africa approach. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 04:00, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Other ChatGPT indefs

At least one other user got blocked (in August) for using ChatGPT without verifying the invented information was correct, and then not responding to queries on their talk page about it. --PresN 14:06, 16 September 2023 (UTC)