Talk:Great Famine (Ireland)

Reference to laissez-faire capitalism

It's highly irresponsible to cite laissez-faire capitalism as a cause of the irish famine. There was nothing laissez-faire capitalist about ireland in 1849 at all. You could just as inaccurately try blaming it on socialism by saying it was caused by a government regulated control of what people grow 174.71.228.58 (talk) 23:37, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

• No, it's entirely valid. Feeding the Irish Poor was seen as Government Intervention by the members and employees of the British Government, so meaningful food relief programs were shut down. Also the government did not mandate that potatoes be grown.--24.77.16.87 (talk) 07:28, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

  Suggest changing "From 1846, the impact of the blight was exacerbated by the British Whig government's economic policy of laissez-faire capitalism." to "Economists disagree about whether laissez-faire or protectionist economic policies under the British Whig government were to blame for the declining situation after 1848." Reason: renowned economists from Milton Friedman to Thomas Sowell disagree that laissez-faire policies were to blame. Wikipedia should impartially reflect the disagreement rather than choosing a side. NationalInterest2016 (talk) 15:52, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Historians agree that the British Whig government's laissez-faire policies exacerbated the famine's lethality, whereas as the previous Tory government's intervention had some benefits. The libertarian economists who contradict this are non-experts who are covered by WP:FRINGE. It would be like introducing Maoist interpretation of the Great Leap Forward into that article. There should be no change in this regard. Boynamedsue (talk) 06:25, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Laissez-faire often translates to the bystander effect. Taking no action to correct visible problems, because you do not feel responsible for the situation or because you expect someone else to act instead. It is a recipe for disaster. Dimadick (talk) 09:02, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

The Poor Law tax was introduced in Ireland in 1838, the late 1840s this tax went up and op - especially after the Russell government passed legislation forcing areas of Ireland that were not dependent on the potato to pay for areas (for bankrupt Poor Law Unions) that were were dependent on the potato. A policy of higher and higher taxation, and the "roads to nowhere" and other schemes of Sir Charles Trevelyan, can not honestly be described as "laissez faire".2A02:C7C:E085:8D00:B98A:4B1E:1A58:24A1 (talk) 13:06, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Charity section quotes from O’Brien and Mitchel

Both quotes were added in a single commit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Great_Famine_%28Ireland%29&diff=prev&oldid=169227551

I will be removing them for the following reasons.

1. Neither provides answers to what happened or why it happened.
2. The O'Brien quote is from well before the blight struck (therefore irrelevant) and the Michel quote appears to be a polemic. I doubt that either reflects the views of the Irish labourers who starved.
3. The article is already too long and needs added information - deleting these will make space.
4. The article as is forces the reader to read the views of two politicians before they get to the 'meat' of the article.

Cheezypeaz (talk) 23:16, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Man-made famine?

In the short descriptions of the Holodomor and the Soviet famine of 1930–1933, the famines are described as "man-made", yet in this article, the short description does not use that adjective. But this article does seem to suggest that, at least in some part, the famine was man-made. What are the thoughts of the editors here on the short description here having the "man-made" descriptor added, or the introduction having a line similar to Bengal famine of 1943 that says "Some scholars characterise the famine as anthropogenic (man-made), asserting that wartime colonial policies exacerbated the crisis. Others argue that the famine was the result of natural causes." It seems like that would be a good summary of how scholars debate to what extent the Great Famine in Ireland was exacerbated (or mitigated) by the British government. Please share your thoughts. JasonMacker (talk) 23:33, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

We don't decide the question of whether the famine was any particular thing, we are encyclopedists and can only work from sources. To include such a descriptor, we would need a substantial supporting body of knowledge. The Holodomor and other Soviet famines were caused very directly by deliberate and / or insane actions (some based on spurious "biological" theories, some about political ideas / class and industry reorganisation concepts). Now, there is no doubt that the famine in Ireland was caused by natural events (the spread of a disease), and while there is equally no doubt that its effects were grounded on a dangerous level of accumulated crop dependence, and grossly exacerbated and prolonged by policies we would now call "heartless" or worse - on the face of it, "man-made" looks a stretch. "Man-exacerbated", perhaps, but is there a scholarly source for that? SeoR (talk) 00:17, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Agreed, except that calling it "man-made" would be wrong and misleading. I think the Bengal line you quote is rather dubious too. Think of the recent earthquake in Turkey & Syria. Clearly a natural disaster, but many deaths will result from inadequate rescue & relief work afterwards. That doesn't mean it should be called "man-made". In fact the loss of life from the great majority of really big natural disaters is increased by "inadequate" government intervention afterwards. Johnbod (talk) 02:00, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Have you read the article? It makes it clear that the British government played a large role in the famine. You also mention that the Holodomor was "caused very directly by deliberate and / or insane actions (some based on spurious "biological" theories, some about political ideas / class and industry reorganisation concepts)" This fits the Irish famine perfectly. Many British government officials and intellectuals at the time believed in Malthus's ideas and thought that Ireland was overpopulated, so the famine killing people was bringing balance in their view. This was combined with their belief in the racial inferiority of the Irish people that causes them to produce too many children. That sounds like a spurious "biological" theory to me! This is detailed in the Great_Famine_(Ireland)#Contemporary_analysis section of the article, which could use some expansion. And another part of the article specifically quotes historian Mark Tauger that states that the circumstances of this Great Famine and the Holodomor are similar. JasonMacker (talk) 18:43, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Short descriptions should be short and simple. They're not the right place for the discussion of spurious theories. DrKay (talk) 19:04, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Who asked for a "discussion of spurious theories"? I'm asking for a short description that is in line with the actual content of the article which discusses how it was man-made. JasonMacker (talk) 04:31, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

No, it doesn't really. The article is rightly clear that the "proximate" (as it puts it) cause was a plant disease. Yet you want to completely ignore that in the short description? No. Johnbod (talk) 04:57, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

The proximate cause is a plant disease... ok but plant diseases happen. Crop failures happen. But those don't necessarily mean famine. The reason why it became a famine is because of the British system created where many Irish people were depending on one, single crop, namely the potato. If I eat from a variety of vegetables, a plant disease affecting one of them will negatively impact me, but proportionately. If there's a government policy forcing me to ONLY grow the one crop that is impacted by plant disease, that's when famines happen. Again, I encourage you to read the article, where this is all detailed. Without human (government) intervention, the famine would not have happened, thus, it is man-made, and this is detailed in this article as it currently exists. If you have a problem with the way the current article describes this, feel free to provide sources and suggest changes to be made. My proposal is simply for the short description to be representative of the article. JasonMacker (talk) 16:14, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

No. Short descriptions should be short and simple. They're not the place for complex issues or statements that require detailed explanations or countering arguments. DrKay (talk) 16:54, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

At the start of this section, I pointed out that other articles clearly find it useful to include "man-made" in their short descriptions, so what you just said is clearly false, unless you're of the opinion that "man-made" should be removed from the short descriptions of those other articles too. JasonMacker (talk) 18:45, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

You also mentioned the Bengal famine of 1943, which (rightly imo) doesn't use "man-made" in the short description; like the Irish one it had "natural" causes, but was made worse by government policy. Short descriptions should avoid all possible controversy and doubt, so yes I would far rather remove "man-made" from the Soviet ones than add it to either of those under British rule. Johnbod (talk) 19:06, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

Ok, I've done this for you. Also happy to add it to the Irish one. DenverCoder9 (talk) 14:47, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Since your position is against consensus on those pages, it should be added to this one rather than removed from that. If you disagree, you can take it up on those pages and achieve consensus there. DenverCoder9 (talk) 14:57, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

"Ireland's Holocaust" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Ireland's Holocaust has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 June 30 § Ireland's Holocaust until a consensus is reached. estar8806 (talk) ★ 02:05, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

No Historians take Genocide Seriously

I was reading an article that reexamined the intentionality of the famine by the british authorities and it made me think about this wikipedia article, which makes it seem like no scholars consider the Irish Famine a genocide. I won't pretend I am not biased after reading this article, so looking for feedback on these thoughts. I am thinking at the very least we can add some qualifying words to make the debate seem less conclusive in one direction with no active scholarly discussion. [1]https://brill.com/display/book/9781904710820/BP000013.xml#:~:text=By%201849%2C%20the%20forcible%20displacement,genocide%20against%20the%20Irish%20people. 2600:1700:5650:3EB0:45E4:C2CA:7216:ACDB (talk) 05:23, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

We can certainly debate how the article might best reflect the scholarly discussions. It is quite clear that *few* but not *no* historians see genocide as a key factor, but how this is presented can be explored - but here, before editing the body, as this is a very controversial matter. We can disregard the point that genocide was not a defined crime at the time, as the meaning of the term is clear, and genocides certainly occurred over thousands of years. So the question is whether British government actions rose to the needed level - in particular, was there intent to kill massive numbers of people. Sources may be offered, but I've read many books touching on or including this topic, and to me, the evidence just does not seem to be there - many officials did not like the Irish, despised poor people in any part of the UK, disapproved of large families, etc., and there was an imbalance of population to resources more severe on the island of Ireland vs. the island of Britain. And their behaviour was, especially by modern standards, despicable and heartless, the failure to even make a gesture towards redirecting exports wrongheaded, stupid and partly lethal, and the results awful with few equals as to percentage of population impacted by a single disaster - and there were years to do better, so many missed opportunities. But did someone somewhere sit down and plot to spread blight, or to take advantage if a blight came...? this is not evidenced anywhere I have seen. But let the debate continue... SeoR (talk) 09:43, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

To clarify a point - the exports are described as "partly lethal" because it is a reported fact that some of what was exported was not in much demand in Ireland, in the same way that a country surrounded by fish-rich seas did not gain significant cover from, say, a massive fishing drive. But it is equally factual that some of the exports could usefully have been held, and past governments had done so in times of want - and some could have been exchanged for more useful supplies, rather than the near-useless maize that was imported, as per the text. Part of the problem is that European governments in that period were small organisations, and lacked technical expertise in matters seen as relevant to private enterprise - agriculture-rich Ireland had no relevant government department until the early 20th century, for example. SeoR (talk) 09:55, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

The article in question appears to have been written by this person. If so no further discussion is needed. Not an historian.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/neysa-king Cheezypeaz (talk) 03:58, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

They have a degree in history and it is a published peer reviewed source though. 204.14.36.137 (talk) 18:23, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

A reading of the great famine wikipedia talks about government officials treating the famine lightly or as providence due to its furthering of governmental goals. Is not the neglect and furtherance of stealing of irish wealth a continued stated english policy, and enough to call this genocide. They may have made excuses in their minds and not called for death explicitly, but it is clear implicitly the policy of the government facilitates the famine, and is thus, I would argue, genocide. 204.14.36.137 (talk) 18:30, 26 October 2023 (UTC)