Talk:Irish slaves myth

John Donaghue

Unlike the other historians cited in this article, Donaghue believes in the idea of Irish slavery and argues for it in the essay cited here. On that point alone it should be removed.

Then there is the actual content it is supporting:

"Treatment of Irish indentured servants varied widely, but the transport, physical work, and living conditions have been compared by scholars to the treatment of enslaved Africans."

By scholars? This is one controversial opinion from a questionable source. Read Handler and Reilly on this topic[1].

"Despite general similarities in their material lives and work regimens, it is difficult, if not futile, to meaningfully compare the living conditions of slaves and servants over the seventeenth century...there are simply insufficient qualitative/literary or quantitative data to make a thorough comparison."

Jonathan f1 (talk) 20:26, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

There's actually a whole section in the Irish Indentured Servants article titled "Comparisons to slavery" that cites a number of scholars, some of whom argue in favor of comparison and some of whom argue against it. Perhaps some of those sources could be brought into the article to address this concern.

Although looking at your other edits on this talk page you seem to be driven more by personal angst than a real desire to improve the encyclopedia. 2601:86:C37F:CD80:EC64:4ED4:F683:C211 (talk) 19:06, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Chuckle -so the editor who compared "Irish" indentured servants (why not all?) to black slaves is "improving the encyclopedia", but my well-sourced objection is "driven by personal angst"?

These feeble attempts to defend this content says more about you than me. The evidence is inconclusive and most historians see little value in this type of speculation. And the fact that you just articulated a neutrality violation and then asked if the section should be balanced says something about your ability to follow the encyclopedia's rules.

If you're really going to venture into covering a scholarly debate on the treatment of servants vs slaves, find better sources than Donaghue (who is literally claiming the Irish were Caribbean slaves in the piece cited). The one person who's supposedly watching this article is asleep at the wheel. Jonathan f1 (talk) 22:23, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 24 April 2023

In the External links section, please change [https://www.acast.com/the-irish-passport/episode-10-the-irish-slaves-myth "Episode 10: The Irish Slaves Myth"] (dead link) to [https://www.theirishpassport.com/podcast/episode-10-the-irish-slaves-myth/ The Irish Slaves Myth"], The Irish Passport (the original and still live page). 2001:BB6:47ED:FA58:C5A7:D706:B26C:ECE (talk) 15:27, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

@2001:BB6:47ED:FA58:C5A7:D706:B26C:ECE Done Milo8505 (talk) 09:23, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

 Already done M.Bitton (talk) 23:24, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Biased article

Not appropriate for Wikipedia 2601:CB:8001:F080:7487:EB82:9EFD:26F5 (talk) 15:31, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Yup, it's biased for WP:BESTSOURCES. If you have a problem with that, you should leave this website. tgeorgescu (talk) 15:45, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes i don't think a poorly written racist tirade belongs on this website 2600:1016:B112:6F72:0:33:4860:A601 (talk) 15:40, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 July 2023

Historian David Brown at Trinity College Dublin has recently published an article on unfree labor in Ireland and Barbados, focusing on the period 1620-1660. Brown relies on newly available archival sources and long neglected primary sources which have not been systemically examined since the 1930s. Brown's article convincingly demonstrates that the Irish were subject to a form of slavery which was distinct from both African slavery and various forms of servitude. Coupled with Hilary Beckles' 1980 dissertation, it is increasingly evident that while there is an "Irish slaves myth" which is employed to advance a particular white supremacist narrative, there is also a historical form of labor exploitation to which the Irish were subject during the Cromwellian period which—while distinct from African slavery— is itself a form of early modern chattel slavery based in ethno-religous difference. The Wikipedia page should be revised accordingly. Please see the following source:

Ireland, slavery and the Caribbean Interdisciplinary perspectives Editors: Finola O’Kane and Ciaran O’Neill

Chapter 3: Free, and unfree Ireland and Barbados, 1620–1660 in Ireland, slavery and the Caribbean David Brown

Chapter DOI: https://doi.org/10.7765/9781526151001.00012 Online Publication Date: 07 Mar 2023 219.76.26.109 (talk) 15:07, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 18:09, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Start by removing the word ‘myth’. The Irish were slaves and forced into ‘indentured servitude’ - they were notably forced into it which takes the freewill out it which is ‘slavery’.

The corruption of ‘Indentured servitude’ did not become apparent until Slavery was abolished in America in 1865, Indentured Slavery was abolished in 1917. Indentured Slavery was abused by the British to enslave the Irish and was abused by America to enslave African-Americans after Slavery was abolished. Both are now abolished and both were forms of slavery. RoryLPatrick (talk) 15:18, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

The article specifically calls out that there is a significant difference between chattel slavery and indentured servitude. You're conflating them here by inventing the term "indentured slavery". And we've all been over these topics on the page here for literally years - Alison ^talk 16:03, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

What a strange request. Your link doesn't support any notion of Irish 'chattel slaves'. It talks about the presence of Irish servants in the Caribbean which is well known and covered in this article. And contrary to what you might reasonably conclude from the tone of this article, English paupers and convicts made up the largest class of servants in the Caribbean and North America, and some estimates suggest as many as half of all white colonists in North America had signed indentures. Scots and Germans were also servants in the Americas and all of these groups outnumbered the Irish.

Once upon a time this article made mention of the ethnic origins of European servants until some totally objective, unbiased and neutral editor who happens to reside in Ireland removed the content with no explanation. I've been adamant about getting this restored -it's important historical context and is covered in many reliable sources (see Liam Hogan's work). Jonathan f1 (talk) 22:00, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Why would this article - about the myth of Irish slavery in the Americas, usually (ab)used by American white supremacists - make mention of the ethnic origins of settlers/servants who weren't Irish? WP:UNDUE. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 09:38, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

For the simple fact that reliable sources like Liam Hogan frequently cover the European origins of indentured servants. For one thing, the myth zeroes in on the Irish and conflates indentured servitude with chattel slavery. Secondly, purveyors of the myth prey on the gullibility of the public in accepting without question that "the Irish" were singled out for special treatment.

Why do you think Liam Hogan mentions this in his pieces? Jonathan f1 (talk) 05:53, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

For the benefit of other editors, here are some sources. Here's Liam Hogan, Laura McAtackney and Matthew C. Reilly writing in History Ireland:

"This case demonstrates that servants had legal redress and that the sufferings of servants were not limited to the Irish; English, Scottish, Welsh, German and French servants also experienced hardship in Barbados."[2]

Jerome Handler and Matthew Reilly:

"Indentured servants, largely young males from England, Scotland, Ireland, and Wales (that is the British Isles), were present from the first year of settlement and continued to arrive in subsequent years." and,

"During the English Civil War (1642–51) and the following decade, when Barbados’s sugar economy was flourishing, many thousands prisoners of war were shipped to the island and sold as servants. These included Cromwell’s political enemies as well as thousands captured in military campaigns in Ireland and Scotland in 1649–50. Roughly 10,000 Scottish, English, Irish, and even German prisoners from the 1651 Battle of Worcester, the final battle of the English Civil War, were also transported to the Americas as servants."[3]

So again this is presented as historical background info and to make the point that not even convict or POW transports were specifically aimed at the Irish, as argued by Sean O'Callaghan and others.

The real issue here is that this content in the background section was sourced then removed by a single editor shouting "undue weight!" without discussing the changes. If I did something like that I'd be edit blocked, someone else does it and it's totally fine. Jonathan f1 (talk) 16:29, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

NPOV

This article lacks an impartial tone. FrunkSpace (talk) 10:33, 8 November 2023 (UTC)