Talk:Sam Altman

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Birthday / Altman Technologies

First: Various sources claim that he was born on April 22, 1985 (including some Wikipedia pages of other languages); however none of them are reliable. Can we add it?

Second: Some sources claim that he is the owner and president of Altman Technologies Incorporated. The same question goes here. Ramanujaner (talk) 13:24, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

No, those sources aren't correct. this Sam Altman is not the same person who is the owner and president of Altman Technologies in Bridgeville, Pennsylvania. The other Sam Altman founded this five-person industrial surfacing, wiring, and mechanical supply company in 1998, when the BLP's Sam Altman was 13 years old. Also, Crunchbase, which is fairly reliable, correctly links its entry for Altman Technologies to the other Sam Altman. So, wrong age and wrong location. Thank you for noticing and asking, Ramanujaner, as BLP Sam Altman does own a lot of different companies!--FeralOink (talk) 23:55, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Potential ref

• https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/31/technology/sam-altman-open-ai-chatgpt.html

Removed here. --Hipal (talk) 16:46, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Content was returned to article by an editor, per edit history comment. Thank you for reference, as I used it for my re-write.--FeralOink (talk) 22:44, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Reads like an advertisement tag

The article DID read like an ad! That was appropriate tagging. I rewrote the article (restructured, added sources, updated content, removed quasi-fan cruft verbiage). The tone is more encyclopedia-like but I am uncertain if it is ready for the ad tag to be removed. If anyone especially Hipal who tagged it initially, has any thoughts on this, please let's talk about it. Due to OpenAI, Altman's BLP is getting A LOT of views lately.-- FeralOink (talk) 22:52, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

There are still many poor references in the article. --Hipal (talk) 23:30, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

I agree. I also think some of the wording needs to be made less like a press release in a few places, but didn't have further time to work on it.--FeralOink (talk) 23:57, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

I fully agree. Unfortunately, attempts to restore WP:NPOV keep getting reverted by people, often people who refuse to even take part in talk. -- Rei (talk) 10:30, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Quote

I added this quote into personal life section, and was reverted twice: "I have guns, gold, potassium iodide, antibiotics, batteries, water, gas masks from the Israeli Defense Force, and a big patch of land in Big Sur I can fly to." what's your problem with short quote in text? Paraphrased, it would be "He owns guns, gold, potassium iodide, antibiotics, batteries, water, gas masks from the Israeli Defense Force, and land in Big Sur." How is it better than a quote? Artem.G (talk) 17:49, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

forgot to ping Hipal. Artem.G (talk) 19:34, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing this to the talk page.

Besides the WP:QUOTE and WP:UNDUE concerns, it appears to fail WP:V and be WP:OR because the reference doesn't mention "prepper" anywhere. --Hipal (talk) 22:22, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

how would you call a person who said about himself I prep for survival? That's from the same source. And it's not undue, he appears everyday in newspieces talking about AI safety, AGI and stuff, and the fact that he himself is preparing to survival adds a lot to the picture. Artem.G (talk) 07:18, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

more sources: Meet OpenAI CEO Sam Altman, who learned to code at 8 and is a doomsday prepper with a stash of gold, guns, and gas masks, Sam Altman: The quick, deep thinker leading OpenAI, I Used to Make Fun of Silicon Valley Preppers. Then I Became One., Sam Altman: The optimistic survivalist whose AI bot could take over the world. Artem.G (talk) 07:28, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

Drawing from a lengthy article where the authors choose to use Altman's own words to briefly bring it up, rather than attempt to describe it, I'd leave it out completely.

Thanks for the potential refs. I'm assuming those are the best available, and they're poor at best in light of the very high standards required by BLP. Tread carefully, maybe with the NYTimes. --Hipal (talk) 16:39, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

How are these refs "poor"? NYTimes, Business Insider, and Times of Israel call him prepper based on his own words, and he never denied it. A person saying he preps for surviving is a prepper, if it quacks like a prepper and talks like a prepper.

And about "high standards of BLP" - I totally get it, we need reliable sources for biographies, but how is this was deemed reliable and not undue? Recode reported that Altman might run for Governor of California in the 2018 election, which he did not enter. Doesn't sound more reliable for me, and is undue as it never really happened. Artem.G (talk) 17:14, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

The best references are those that go into depth and provide comparisons and context. I'd say the New Yorker is the best of them, and it uses a quote rather than goes into any depth or context on this matter. Please just be careful. As for your govenor example: WP:OSE. --Hipal (talk) 17:37, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

I know the policy, and I'm not trying to edit war, I'm just saying that a lot of other statements in the article are referenced by the sources that don't provide any depth. (Like He received his first computer at the age of eight. - there is no discussion in sources, and it based entirely on Altman's own words, same as our subject.) And that's why I wanted to add a quote, so there would be no misleading statements, just his own words about an important aspect that is highlighted in several sources. Artem.G (talk) 20:21, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

one more source, Inside OpenAI CEO Sam Altman's fixation on death and the apocalypse. Artem.G (talk) 20:31, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

Bilderberg Group membership

User:Hipal, why did you revert my edit? It doesn't fall under WP:SOAP. Mentioning Altman's membership and thricefold attendance of the Bilderberg Group conference is:

1) Not advocacy, propaganda, or recruitment: the information is presented neutrally

2) Not opinionated: factual and sourced

3) Not scandalous: factual and sourced

4) Not self-promotion: I have no connection to the subject of the article

5) Not advertising, marketing or public relations: the information is presented neutrally

Bilderberg Group membership is important and relevant information that's mentioned in the Recognition section on other pages of tech figures such as Jeff Bezos and Peter Thiel. I have reverted your reversion. Palm Puree (talk) 02:19, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

We disagree. It's most definitely self-promotion by Bilderberg Group, and not supported by an independent reference as required by #5. Please don't revert further until there is clear consensus to do so per WP:BLP. --Hipal (talk) 18:11, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

You realise that the definition of self-promotion requires me to be affiliated with the group, yes? Are you seriously accusing me of "most definite" affiliation with the Bilberberg Group? If it needs to be said I'm obviously not, if I was I think I'd have better things to do with my time. Are the edits that mention the group on Jeff Bezos and Peter Thiel, not to mention List of Bilderberg participants self-promotion too?

Other articles don't require it, but here are some independent references:

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/05/18/bilderberg-openai-microsoft-google-join-ai-talks-at-secretive-meeting.html

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/20/bilderberg-meeting-group-lisbon-kissinger

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12102071/ChatGPT-Microsoft-chiefs-join-European-elites-Lisbon-secretive-conference.html

You also have been repeatedly reverting fixes to an incorrect claim ("OpenAI was founded as a capped-profit company"), citing "no references" even though the claim left in the article was directly contradicted by the reference. I fixed this too, by adding a new reference, and you just deleted the whole section even though the article is bare enough as is and the information seems contextually relevant. You didn't delete the section before while it was incorrect and you were reverting any fixes to it, and now that it's corrected, you delete it? This feels really spiteful, man.

It's bizarre to see this from a user with so many edits, I will escalate this since I think you're engaging in bad faith. Palm Puree (talk) 22:10, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

self-promotion requires me to be affiliated No. As I wrote, It's most definitely self-promotion by Bilderberg Group. If you were affiliated with them, then you'd be editing against a conflict of interest.

since I think you're engaging in bad faith That undermines everything you're doing here. Please review WP:CON and WP:DR. --Hipal (talk) 23:58, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

@Hipal: The definition of self-promotion we use here does indeed require that the editor be, or be affiliated in some way with, the subject of the article or the content being added. That affiliation is certainly one form of COI, but accusing the editor of self-promotion when they have clearly denied any affiliation is probably unwarranted. General Ization ^Talk 00:02, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

I've clearly defined what I meant. I've made no accusations against any editor here. --Hipal (talk) 01:23, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

@Hipal: Clearly the other editor involved believes that you are accusing them of self-promotion, that is, promoting themselves or someone or something with which they are affiliated. If that is not what you are doing, then please clarify. General Ization ^Talk 01:25, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Already did. Please read what I wrote. Note that I never referred to SELFPROMOTE, but I did refer to #5, NOTPROMO. --Hipal (talk) 01:34, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

You said "self-promotion by Bilderberg Group" and I'm not sure how that can be interpreted as anything other than #4, but regardless I still don't see how it falls under #5 NOTPROMO. The sentence is not written in an unobjective way. The section it's in is called "Recognition" so it's unavoidably going to paint the subject in a slightly positive light (and the other parts of this section do too), but it definitely doesn't meet the standard demanded by NOTPROMO. I added 2 third-party sources (dailymail is not allowed apparently) so is that sufficient to satisfy you? No reason to argue if so. Palm Puree (talk) 07:25, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the independent refs. Could you format them and include the full citation information? --Hipal (talk) 16:41, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

@Hipal: In re: WP:CON: The sources provided by the editor for Altman's participation in three Bilderberg Group conferences are the list of participants in those conferences. We require that sources be independent of the subject; Bilderberg Group is clearly the authoritative source for this information and is independent of Altman. The editor has also supplied a citation of a CNBC article which discusses his association with BG and the conferences, and listed some more above. I support the inclusion of this content. If you have some cogent reason to reject it, please provide that reasoning here, but "self-promotion" won't cut it. General Ization ^Talk 01:36, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, but the Bilderberg Group refs don't belong for the reasons given. We don't need to review BLP, do we? --Hipal (talk) 01:41, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Yes, apparently we do. In what way do you think those citations violate BLP? General Ization ^Talk 01:41, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Lists of participants are no more promotional than graduation announcements or lists of alumni (regularly accepted as sources for academic credentials in BLPs) represent promotion of the colleges or universities that publish them. The pages contain no promotional copy; just lists of names, which support the claim that Altman participated in the conferences. General Ization ^Talk 02:03, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

WP:BLPSELFPUB

You're comparing participating in a conference with achieving a degree? Got any references that suggests such importance? BLP strictly places the burden of inclusion on those who seek to add the information. --Hipal (talk) 16:45, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

BLPSELFPUB (read it) would apply if we were talking about information that Altman had published about himself. That is not what we are discussing. Even if it was, all of the criteria for inclusion at that link are met.

And yes, the references already provided make abundantly clear why the BG conferences are important, why Altman's participation in the conferences is significant and relevant to the subject of the article, and how his contributions were not trivial. Perhaps you should read them. General Ization ^Talk 18:14, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

BLPSELFPUB says, Never use self-published sources—including but not limited to books, zines, websites, blogs, and social network posts—as sources of material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the article. --Hipal (talk) 19:11, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

WP:SELFPUB says, Never use self-published sources as third-party sources about living people, even if the author is an expert, well-known professional researcher, or writer. --Hipal (talk) 19:15, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

I don't think you're hearing me. The sources we are talking about are not "self-published". If you're confused about what that term means, please open a discussion at WP:BLP or another noticeboard; explaining it to you is beyond the scope of this Talk page. In the meantime, I think we should move on to add the content. General Ization ^Talk 21:46, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

(Alternatively, you could actually participate in the discussion at DRN about this dispute, as you were invited to do but have not done.) General Ization ^Talk 21:52, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

We disagree on basic policy (NOT, BLP, V; likely POV as well), and the burden is on those seeking inclusion.

Please WP:FOC, and per NOT:Focus on improving the encyclopedia itself, rather than demanding more from other Wikipedians.

Meanwhile, I've been cleaning up the content. The remaining self-published ref should be replaced or removed. --Hipal (talk) 22:31, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Indeed we do, and that's why you should be participating in the discussion at DRN instead of insisting that it's your way or no way at all. My focus is fine, thank you; this is a content dispute. General Ization ^Talk 23:16, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

(And what is it you think I'm demanding of you? I am focused on you only because you are currently the only editor involved in this discussion who is obstructing the inclusion of this content.) General Ization ^Talk 23:23, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Meanwhile, I've been cleaning up the content. --Hipal (talk) 23:31, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia is a collaborative project.. General Ization ^Talk 23:33, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Yes, though I think any discussion on collaboration should begin with the relevant policy, WP:CON, followed by WP:DR. --Hipal (talk) 22:34, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Father is Roger Altman

Any reason this pretty important feature of his life history is mysteriously absent? 136.26.44.183 (talk) 03:55, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

This doesn't seem to be true. Palm Puree (talk) 14:34, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Worldcoin

I think this sentence is controversial and not so directly related to Sam Altman :

"In April 2022, a report from MIT Technology Review highlighted Worldcoin's controversial practices in low-income countries, citing that Worldcoin takes advantage of impoverished people to grow its network."

One reason is that it seems like the article is attributing the direct responsibility of the misconducts of some third-party contractors to Worldcoin. Another issue is that it suggests that Worldcoin's choice of starting with low-income countries is cynical and unethical, which is unclear given that the additional income from Worldcoin would benefit poor people most.

The paragraph on the May 2023 hack is better and more factual. Its relevance here may still be debated depending on how much we want to enter this kind of details on Sam Altman's article. Or perhaps we want to have some coverage of the less anecdotal skepticism around Worldcoin.

I let you decide. Alenoach (talk) 13:47, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes, this article has too much not directly related to Altman. Good catch. --Hipal (talk) 19:29, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Lack of content on OpenAI and artificial intelligence

Hi, in my opinion, this article has very little content on some of the topics that make Sam Altman so well-known : his role in OpenAI, and the debate around the capabilities, risks, opportunities and policy of artificial intelligence. This represents a significant part of his media coverage, with plenty of reliable sources. Of course if you do it you should be very careful to give a fair, balanced, interesting and well-sourced overview. Here was my attempt to cover the topic of Altman's views on artificial intelligence (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sam_Altman&oldid=1167754292#Opinions_on_artificial_intelligence), if you deem that there is something to retrieve. Alenoach (talk) 05:43, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia article about Altman, not a soapbox for his recent prognostications. We should focus on what he has done. --Hipal (talk) 19:28, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Sister's tweets

Several tweets in which his sister, Annie Altman, accuses him of molesting her when she was four years old:

- https://twitter.com/phuckfilosophy/status/1459696376133001218

- https://twitter.com/phuckfilosophy/status/1459696444802142213

- https://twitter.com/phuckfilosophy/status/1459696500540248068

- https://twitter.com/phuckfilosophy/status/1568689744951005185

- https://twitter.com/phuckfilosophy/status/1603857979408728064

- https://twitter.com/phuckfilosophy/status/1635704398939832321

- https://twitter.com/phuckfilosophy/status/1661087295657869312

- https://twitter.com/phuckfilosophy/status/1708193951319306299

Alluded to in this article, but not explicitly stated:

- https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/sam-altman-artificial-intelligence-openai-profile.html

"As Annie tells her life story, she felt special and loved when, as a child, Sam read her bedtime stories. Now those memories feel like abuse."

Is there anything that could be added from these sources that won't breach the BLP policy? 2A00:23EE:19D8:4A3:E923:6ECE:A7E8:1017 (talk) 01:15, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

No. We are currently using the NYMag ref for other content. I'm not seeing any obvious usage for it regarding the relationship between the siblings. The tweets should not be used per WP:RSPTWITTER. --Hipal (talk) 21:52, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Those allegations would be a BLP minefield even if there was any kind of corroboration. Please see my next section. Sandizer (talk) 03:17, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

The Mary Sue is generally considered to be reliable and reports on the allegations in depth here; Slate also mentions them. Fences&Windows 17:24, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

with writing like this, you can't say that the mary sue is neutral or reliable: He writes about bending the world to one’s singular will as a virtue. As a start-up hack. While much journalism around Altman adds to his budding mythos, one voice has been contributing a different sort of story for years. Artem.G (talk) 17:41, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Artem.G, you misunderstand NPOV. Sources don't need to be neutral; our summarisation of them should be. Fences&Windows 17:53, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

I understand what NPOV is, I just think that your definition of "generally reliable" is incorrect here. Artem.G (talk) 17:59, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial for the consensus on The Mary Sue, and see WP:BIASED: "reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective." Fences&Windows 20:45, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

The Mary Sue article is clearly WP:RSOPINION and cannot be used to establish assertions of fact. This does not satisfy the WP:PUBLICFIGURE standard for me. Morbidthoughts (talk) 21:32, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

It is not the author's "opinion" that Altman's sister accused him as sexual assault. For God's sake. -- Rei (talk) 09:48, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Let's be abundantly clear about what WP:BLP says: If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article. BLP strongly condemns imbalance and omission. It is not, according to BLP, "okay for an article to be temporarily unbalanced because it will eventually be brought into shape"; balance is mandated. "Criticism and praise should be included if they can be sourced to reliable secondary sources". Slate is a reliable secondary source. And yes, according to Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial, so is The Mary Sue. This is not the venue to re-litigate this. -- Rei (talk) 09:58, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Regardless of if there is enough coverage for inclusion, your wording presents the allegations as facts, such as starting when she was four years old. Which is not acceptable for inclusion.

Also for your edit warring, blp says Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—must be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion (for stating these as facts) —Panamitsu (talk) 22:17, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

First, let's be clear: your edit warring. You're the one who made five reversions without taking part in talk and without making any changes to the text.

Secondly: I don't appreciate the straw man. The text was, I quote: In 2021, writing on Twitter (now X), Altman's sister Annie accused him of repeatedly sexually abusing her as a child, starting when she was four years old. You transforming that into claims that the edit was a statement of fact, and not an accusation, in order to then attack what it didn't say, is not well taken.

Thirdly: Nothing is unsourced, and nothing is poorly sourced. There are three WP-acceptable secondary sources linked )want even more? Name your number.) So your claims that this is your reason to violate WP:BLP's mandates simply does not hold up (again: If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article. BLP strongly condemns imbalance and omission. It is not, according to BLP, "okay for an article to be temporarily unbalanced because it will eventually be brought into shape"; balance is mandated. "Criticism and praise should be included if they can be sourced to reliable secondary sources") -- 85.220.29.158 (talk) 00:58, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Note: This IP appears to be the same of Rei. Both users have recently edited the induced demand article. I advise that these two users are treated as the same person. —Panamitsu (talk) 01:04, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

I have no idea if everything in the Mary Sue is opinion or it only this one. But I agree that this is clearly an opinion piece. And as Morbidthoughts said, opinion pieces cannot be used to establish statements of fact and there is nothing in RSP that can change that. In fact the RSP entry specifically notes this "Opinions should be attributed." 22:41, 20 November 2023 (UTC) Nil Einne (talk) 22:41, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

I have no idea if everything in the Mary Sue is opinion or it only this one - you don't get to re-litigate that here. WP has already decided on this issue. You need to re-challenge that decision elsewhere. Not in this article.

But I agree that this is clearly an opinion piece. - (A) It's a WP:V source backing up primary sources, which is exactly what Wikipedia requires. (B) Opinions are NOT prohibited by WP:BLP regardless, they just have to be sourced. And (C) it was one of three different WP:V sources. Exactly how many is enough for you before you insist on violating WP:BLP's requirements? (to reiterate: If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article. BLP strongly condemns imbalance and omission. It is not, according to BLP, "okay for an article to be temporarily unbalanced because it will eventually be brought into shape"; balance is mandated. "Criticism and praise should be included if they can be sourced to reliable secondary sources") -- 85.220.29.158 (talk) 00:58, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Let's break down the entire WP:BLP article.

BLPs should be written responsibly, cautiously, and in a dispassionate tone, avoiding both understatement and overstatement. - Check. Indeed, it's careful to use the original language ("sexual abuse") rather than "rape", credit everything to those making the claims, and make no assertions of their truth.

Articles should document in a non-partisan manner what reliable secondary sources have published about the subjects - Check

, and in some circumstances what the subjects have published about themselves.' - Check. Ironically, something you're criticizing.

Summarize how actions and achievements are characterized by reliable sources without giving undue weight to recent events. - Check

Do not label people with contentious labels, loaded language, or terms that lack precision, unless a person is commonly described that way in reliable sources - Check

Instead use clear, direct language and let facts alone do the talking. - Check

Criticism and praise should be included if they can be sourced to reliable secondary sources - You seek to remove criticism and only include praise, this violating BLP.

so long as the material is presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a disinterested tone - Check

Do not give disproportionate space to particular viewpoints - You seek to give *zero* space to criticism.

the views of small minorities should not be included at all - Nobody would consider "sexual assault is bad" to be the view of a small minority

Care must be taken with article structure to ensure the overall presentation and section headings are broadly neutral - Check

Beware of claims that rely on guilt by association, and biased, malicious or overly promotional content. - Not even remotely

The idea expressed in Eventualism—that every Wikipedia article is a work in progress, and that it is therefore okay for an article to be temporarily unbalanced because it will eventually be brought into shape—does not apply to biographies. - The article is currently entirely laudatory, and thus, imbalanced, thus *requiring* inclusion of existing criticism being discussed in secondary sources.

Given their potential impact on biography subjects' lives, biographies must be fair to their subjects at all times. - There is nothing "unfair" about bringing up news coverage of your sister accusing you of sexually assaulting her.

Pages that are unsourced and negative in tone - Not even remotely

Wikipedia's sourcing policy, Verifiability, says that all quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable, published source - As discussed previously..

Where primary-source material has been discussed by a reliable secondary source, it may be acceptable to rely on it to augment the secondary source - Bingo.

Never use self-published sources - We have verifiable secondary sources.

Using the subject as a self-published source - N/A

Avoid repeating gossip. Ask yourself whether the source is reliable; whether the material is being presented as true; and whether, even if true, it is relevant to a disinterested article about the subject. Be wary of relying on sources that use weasel words and that attribute material to anonymous sources. - As covered previously, check.

Remove contentious material that is unsourced or poorly sourced - N/A

When writing about a person noteworthy only for one or two events, including every detail can lead to problems—even when the material is well sourced. - N/A. Very much not noteworthy "for only one or two events"

When in doubt, biographies should be pared back to a version that is completely sourced, neutral, and on-topic. You seek to violate "Neutral".

This is of particular importance when dealing with living individuals whose notability stems largely or entirely from being victims of another's actions. - Again, N/A

In the case of public figures, there will be a multitude of reliable published sources, and BLPs should simply document what these sources say. If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article—even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it. - Let me repeat that: If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article

Example: A politician is alleged to have had an affair. It is denied, but multiple major newspapers publish the allegations, and there is a public scandal. The allegation belongs in the biography, citing those sources. - Exactly.

People who are relatively unknown - N/A

Privacy of personal information and using primary sources - With identity theft a serious ongoing concern, many people regard their full names and dates of birth as private. ... -- N/A

Subjects notable only for one event - N/A

A living person accused of a crime is presumed innocent until convicted by a court of law. - No presumption of guilt is made.

Caution should be applied when identifying individuals who are discussed primarily in terms of a single event. - N/A

The presumption in favor of privacy is strong in the case of family members of articles' subjects and other loosely involved, otherwise low-profile persons. -- Not low-profile, N/A.

Wikipedia articles concerning living persons may include material—where relevant, properly weighted, and reliably sourced—about controversies or disputes in which the article subject has been involved. - Which you seek to prevent.

Wikipedia is not a forum provided for parties to off-wiki disputes to continue their hostilities. - N/A

BLP applies to all material about living persons anywhere on Wikipedia, including talk pages, edit summaries, user pages, images, categories, lists, article titles and drafts. - Noted.

Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced and not related to making content choices should be removed, deleted, or oversighted, as appropriate. - Meets the sourcing policy.

Usernames that contain libelous, blatantly false, or contentious statements.. - N/A

Images of living persons should not be used out of context to present a person in a false or disparaging light. - N/A

Category names do not carry disclaimers or modifiers, so the case for each content category must be made clear by the article text and its verifiable reliable sources. - N/A

Caution should be used with content categories that suggest a person has a poor reputation (see false light) - N/A.

Recently dead or probably dead - N/A

This policy does not normally apply to material about corporations, companies, or other entities regarded as legal persons -- N/A

.... everything else is either "N/A" or "Check". So, to sum up: BLP not only allows, but requires, inclusion of this content. -- Rei (talk) 09:47, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

I don't think you should ever touch BLPs every again until you better understand WP:BLP. Anyone who says something as flawed as "BLP not only allows, but requires, inclusion of this content" does not belong anywhere near BLPs. Nil Einne (talk) 22:43, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Any more things you want to argue against without actually making an actual argument against them? If you have an issue with the text of WP:BLP, take it up over at WP:BLP, not here. I can only comment on what WP:BLP actually says. Not what you wish it said. To repeat: If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article. BLP strongly condemns imbalance and omission. It is not, according to BLP, "okay for an article to be temporarily unbalanced because it will eventually be brought into shape"; balance is mandated. "Criticism and praise should be included if they can be sourced to reliable secondary sources").

You seem to be of the mistaken belief that WP:BLP means "you can't write anything negative about living persons". It says precisely the opposite: that balance is required, and that allegations belong in the article if they are noteworthy, relevant, and well documented. Nobody will ever call a sexual assault allegation "not noteworthy" or "not relevant", and we have three WP:V secondary sources (I'd be glad to get more if that's insufficient for you). And meanwhile, the current article reads like an ad, as has been noted elsewhere in this talk section - not even remotely "balanced", as BLP requires.

If you want to change WP:BLP into a policy that says "you can't say anything negative about living persons", you'll need to take that up on WP:BLP and get it changed - not this article. -- 85.220.29.158 (talk) 00:58, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Annie Altman is NOT a WP:BLP violation

It meets all of the criteria for inclusion. By contrast, omission of this info and leaving the article like an ad (an already existing complaint about this article, as per other comments on this talk page) violates WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE. -- Rei (talk) 09:10, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

@Rei Have a look on the "Sister's tweets" discussion. It mentions policy regarding that Twitter is not a reliable source for such controversial matter. This is probably why mainstream media has not covered the tweets. —Panamitsu (talk) 09:12, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Twitter is not the source. We have secondary sources now. Mainstream sources *have* covered it. I'd be glad to remove the Twitter *links* if that's your demand, but they're not the *source*. -- Rei (talk) 09:18, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Slate added as an additional source. Now two reliable resources are cited (and yes, The Mary Sue is a reliable source according to Wikipedia and may be cited.) -- Rei (talk) 09:25, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

I think this can and should be included, but not like this. This issues obviously has serious WP:BLP implications and its worth handling carefully. This must be rewritten to closely match what reliable sources say directly, without editorializing or vagueness. The tweets are a WP:PRIMARY source and should be summarized and contextualized by a reliable secondary source. Just mentioning the existence of such a source is insufficient.

Likewise, saying this "has been more recently criticized" is not going to work. What do reliable sources say about these tweets? The way to avoid BLP issues is to include context from reliable sources. Any opinion or subjective analysis (such as criticism) must also be contextualized and attributed. Use reliable sources to explain who criticized what, and why it matters. Grayfell (talk) 09:51, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

I would oppose inclusion if the only sources we have are The Mary Sue and Slate. There is substantial coverage on Altman, so it's WP:undue to include something with so little coverage. In fact ironically The Mary Sue makes this point for us, for whatever reason this is something which has been largely ignored by most sources. (I'm not convinced their reasoning for why is correct, but that's neither here nor there although it is worth remembering that this affects two (well or more depending on what we include) living persons.) Also is there some reason we're discussing this in two sections? It should me merged with the section above. Nil Einne (talk) 22:23, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

The recent edit-warring made a bit of a mess of the talk page, and I responded where I thought it would be seen. Upon consideration, I think you're correct and I was wrong. It may be possible to include this, but only with much better sources. Grayfell (talk) 23:03, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

For clarity, I'm not complaining about others responding in this thread, but I don't understand why the OP who joined Wikipedia before me (before I even started editing I think), started a thread at the top of the page ignoring the existing discussion until later. IMO it should be merged at least as a subthread of the other. I'd sometimes do this myself but I'm a bit reluctant to when I've so harshly criticised the OP's taken on this. Nil Einne (talk) 23:54, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

I missed the Times Now ref until now since it wasn't mentioned here. However I don't think it adds anything frankly I'm not sure we should use it at all. From what I recall and read, Times Now is one of those extremely pro-Modi/BJP channels known for their anchors yelling at everyone who disagrees and calling them traitors, terrorists etc. (This was a particularly funny incident of theirs [1]. Not mentioned in that ref but it's made even funnier by the fact that the anchor either didn't know or care that the person they were trying to yell at given their associations probably mostly agreed with them regarding US foreign policy.) While this is an area we shouldn't expect such extreme bias to be a problem, I'd always be wary of any media with such a poor track record although I don't know if their Times News Now section is better. Checking WP:RSN discussions isn't positive of them either. It seems they have been known for pushing the love iihad conspiracy theory and perhaps far more concerning when it comes to BLP, Sushant Singh Rajput death conspiracies. (Although my understanding is it's hardly uncommon pushers of love jihad will falsely accuse random specific individuals too, so maybe both are just as bad from a BLP standpoint.) I've looked and there might be one or two other sources but the coverage doesn't see to have changed much. Nil Einne (talk) 00:24, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Kara Swisher says she has a scoop

I am not a good enough Wikipedian to know off the cuff whether these tweets are noteworthy or sufficiently reliable in her voice for inclusion, but my longstanding impression is a lot of Silicon Valley goes to Kara Swisher when they want to leak, and her leak reporting is nearly flawless, unlike her op/eds. So I offer these excerpts for consideration by the more steeped in such questions: "it was a 'misalignment' of the profit versus nonprofit adherents at the company. The developer day was an issue.... Sources tell me that the profit direction of the company under Altman and the speed of development, which could be seen as too risky, and the nonprofit side dedicated to more safety and caution were at odds. One person on the Sam side called it a “coup,” while another said it was the the right move." Sandizer (talk) 03:11, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Wait until it is reported by reliable sources. We are not in any hurry to report what might be speculation. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 20:13, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Things are going so fast it's already several updates old. Sandizer (talk) 22:42, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Fully protected edit request on 20 November 2023

An earlier edit (Special:Diff/1186003145) added "K" as a middle initial of Satya Nadella which seems utterly unsourced and does not exist outside of Wikipedia (and was on nl Wiki [2] which I've removed [3] since it seemed like a direct translation of en's text) Wikipedia seems to be the only place with that now.

Proposed changes in Sam Altman#Microsoft:

• Remove K and wikilink: Satya K Nadella → [[Satya Nadella]]
• Remove trailing space after .: team. <ref> → team.<ref>

Skynxnex (talk) 19:58, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

 Done — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 20:10, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks! Skynxnex (talk) 20:15, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 20 November 2023

Link potassium iodide to the relevant Wikipedia article. Evanf32 (talk) 21:48, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Please establish consensus for this change, it seems WP:Overlinking to me. Nil Einne (talk) 22:20, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

It is, and generally speaking, Wikilinking words within quotes is discouraged anyway. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:41, 20 November 2023 (UTC)