Talk:Russo-Ukrainian War

Belligerents: supported by Belarus

This article should follow the recent consensus at the child article ‘s talk, in Talk:Russian invasion of Ukraine#RfC on Belarus in the infobox, and add Belarus to the infobox as a significant participant from 2022. Its role and agency as a sovereign state actor in this international conflict is certainly more significant than that of the Russian proxies DLNR (which should be removed, but that’s a separate discussion).  —Michael Z. 14:44, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

I am unsure that an RFC on one page should be enforceable on another, no matter how closely related. Slatersteven (talk) 14:51, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

So I am asking for agreement in this page.  —Michael Z. 14:57, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

As the close was "no consensus for change " (in effect) I am going to suggest the same result will occur here. Slatersteven (talk) 15:42, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Since there was a clear consensus to have Belarus in the infobox, I will not presume to predict what editors think should be here. Since there is consensus to list Belarus as a significant actor in a major phase of this war, I would urge them to include it in this parent article, for consistency and common sense.  —Michael Z. 16:01, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

@Mzajac: Use Co-belligerence: instead of Supported by:. See https://www.understandingwar.org/search/google/Belarus%20is%20a%20co-belligerent Parham wiki (talk) 13:49, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

@Parham wiki, I suggest that you read the relevant subthreads in the RfC about that. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 21:34, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

@RadioactiveBoulevardier, OK, thanks Parham wiki (talk) 21:39, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

The Institute for the Study of War clearly describe Belarus as co-belligerent in the war in Ukraine (see: 1, 2), Chatham House mention that Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko was labelled a co-belligerent (see: 3) and in June 2023 Lukashenko himself publicly claimed that "The only mistake we made’ was not finishing off Ukraine with Russia in 2014" (see: 4), so Ukraine is a "common enemy" of Russia and Belarus (see: the meaning of co-belligerence). Moreover, keep in mind that Belarus allowed to use its territory for the Russian Army and is a military supplier of Russia. So devaluation of Belarus as purely "Russian military supplier" is incorrect because none of military suppliers of Russia (e.g. Iran, North Korea) and Ukraine (e.g. United States, Germany, France) allowed to use their countries territory for Russian/Ukrainian troops for combative military actions against opponents (not training/treatment). At the time Template:Infobox military conflict does not have a separate section for "co-belligerence", however this fact about Belarus as co-belligerent (which is supported by WP:RS) should not be omitted just because of technical limitations of Wikipedia and the template should definitely be improved by including such section. -- Pofka (talk) 21:34, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

@Cinderella157: The revert you made should be discussed. You claim that "The status of belligerence is not supported by the body of the article", however there already are explanations that "Russian attacks were initially launched on a northern front from Belarus towards Kyiv" and that "After expending large amounts of heavy weapons and munitions over months, the Russian Federation received (...) deliveries of tanks and other armoured vehicles from Belarus". Do you think more content from article Belarusian involvement in the Russian invasion of Ukraine should be inserted to this article to include in the infobox information that Belarus is/was a co-belligerent of Russia in this war? As user Michael already pointed out, Belarus is included in the side of Russia as "supported by" in another very closely related article Russian invasion of Ukraine. The important role of Belarus in this war, especially since early 2022, should not be hidden. -- Pofka (talk) 16:03, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Do RS call it a beligerant? Slatersteven (talk) 16:06, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Discussion is what follows a revert in WP:BRD. Per WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE, the infobox must be supported by article content. Why we think Belarus should be considered a co-belligerent would be WP:OR. It is up to the sources and there is a WP:BURDEN to provide them. I also said it was a WP:EXCEPTIONAL claim which requires particularly good quality sources. There is also a WP:ONUS to gain consensus. Cinderella157 (talk) 22:21, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

@Pofka, I don’t know if you’re familiar with the discussions which had taken place at Talk:Russian invasion of Ukraine, but it would hardly be NPOV or DUE to push the role of Belarus in a single phase into the spotlight, while similarly ignoring the fact that Western support has been pretty much universally documented by all sides as being vital to the Ukrainian war effort. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 22:48, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Not wishing to rake over old coals, but providing basing, and even allowing attacks from your soil is not the same as supplying arms. Slatersteven (talk) 13:17, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Let's not go down that particular rabbit-hole again. The pertinent question is a consensus in good quality reliable sources sufficient to meet WP:EXCEPTIONAL and that the body of the article supports what is said in the infobox per WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE. Cinderella157 (talk) 03:51, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

@Cinderella157: What I inserted is not my personal WP:OR. Please read these quotes (some are already mentioned in my earlier statement above):

1) "The Belarusian regime’s support for the Russian invasion has made Belarus a cobelligerent in the war in Ukraine" (first source from ISW);

2) "Belarus remains a co-belligerent in Russia’s war against Ukraine, nonetheless." (second source from ISW);

3) "Belarus is clearly a co-belligerent country in Vladimir Putin's war against Ukraine" (source from Euractiv).

4) "So far, Belarus has acted as a "co-belligerent" in the Russia-Ukraine conflict, providing Russia with territory, military bases and hospitals to support its invasion of Ukraine but without getting its own troops involved." (source from Newsweek.com);

5) Multiple Ukrainian sources also describe Belarus as "a co-belligerent in Russia's armed aggression against Ukraine" (see: source from The Voice of Ukraine, source from Kyiv Independent).

@Cinderella157 and @Slatersteven: These sources (and there are more) clearly describe Belarus as co-belligerent and we can use them as references in this article. I fully agree with you @Slatersteven that providing military aid (e.g. United States to Ukraine and North Korea to Russia) is not equal to the permission to use its own territory for the war (not only for ground attacks but also many, many missiles from Belarusian soil towards Ukraine, etc.). Without Belarus as co-belligerent in this war the Battle of Kyiv (2022) would have been impossible and this is the responsibility of Belarus, Lukashenko and Belarusian Government that they allowed and even supported this type of invasion from their own soil. None of missiles/aircrafts were launched from Ukraine's allies territories directly towards Russian Army and that's what clearly makes Belarus very different from Ukraine's allies. The NATO members would consider launching missiles/aircrafts from the NATO territory towards Russian Army as direct involvement in the war and they do not want to be belligerents/co-belligerents and they act purely as military suppliers to Ukraine, but Belarus has clearly acted in this war differently and lethal missiles were launched from Belarusian territory towards Ukrainian cities, including capital Kyiv. -- Pofka (talk) 20:15, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

As I stated, calling it a co-belligerent (ie a belligerent on the side of Russia) falls to WP:EXCEPTIONAL. As such, WP:NEWSORG sources would not meet the threshold of reliability for their opinion. The standard to be applied would be academic peer reviewed sources. However, the initial question posed above would be: inclusion of Belarus under "supported by" as done at Russian invasion of Ukraine. The close of the RfC that deprecated "supported by" (here) would state: inclusion would require an affirmative consensus at the article [emphasis added]. Clearly, a proposal to so add Belarus here would require an RfC here. Cinderella157 (talk) 00:56, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

I go back to what I have said about other issues, lets wait until this is over, and wait for historians to decide. Slatersteven (talk) 11:36, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

The date of the war…

This war started in 2022, not 2014. Donbas war ignited from 2014-15 and afterwards there was a frozen conflict involving russian-armed rebels with ceasefire violations in which only a few hundred russian soldiers died which does not even constitute a war but rather a small scale direct russian intervention. The real full-scale war started after 2022 and every single source says this, i don’t even need to provide sources as it is common sense 78.174.190.122 (talk) 08:02, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

I’ve seen countless number of people complain about this too and some mods would resort to removing the talk instead of following wikipedia guidelines 78.174.190.122 (talk) 08:02, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Russia invaded Ukraine (Crimea) in 2014. Slatersteven (talk) 10:54, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Using that logic the iraq war begin in 1991 after america attacked during that year. 78.174.190.122 (talk) 13:40, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Then make a case there is you think that is the case. Slatersteven (talk) 13:43, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

I believe that the "common name" principle should mean that "Russo-Ukrainian War" refers to the invasion from 2022, and the broader events since 2014 should be called a "Russia-Ukraine conflict" or similar. Note that Wikipedia uses "Israel-Hamas war" to refer to the war that started on October 7, and the broader tensions since 2005 are called the "Gaza-Israel Conflict". 2A02:A31D:E140:2300:5D88:D17B:45C3:5CA5 (talk) 09:54, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Background: Crimean History?

Crimea's history as a territory of pre-Soviet Russia, as well as it's short-lived post-Soviet independence from either Russia or Ukraine that ended in 1994, I would say are an essential and fundamental part of understanding Russia's claim and attitude towards Crimea. I believe there should be at least one paragraph covering this under "Background," preceding all that is already written there. Isz Chepewéssin (talk) 00:58, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

This can be added iff reliable sources discussing the article subject delve into Crimea's history. Otherwise such material is non-compliant with OR. Mr rnddude (talk) 02:02, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure what 'OR' is? Isz Chepewéssin (talk) 05:32, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

It is shorthand for the no original research policy. Wikipedia prohibits the inclusion of original (meaning editor created) material, including any analysis or synthesis of sources. Mr rnddude (talk) 05:44, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Alright, thank you Isz Chepewéssin (talk) 05:58, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Biased language

"Ukrainian forces have also been accused of committing various war crimes, including mistreatment of detainees, though on a much smaller scale than Russian forces" in the Human Rights Violations section, though sourced, goes against the guideline of maintaining a neutral stance. According to the source they gave, this is true. However Ukraine's human rights abuses are widely documented, including by the US State Department, Human Rights Watch, and Amnesty International. 50.247.119.46 (talk) 09:10, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

No it does not, we go by what RS say, please read wp:falsbalance. Slatersteven (talk) 10:37, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 February 2024

This original text: “…Russia had no plans to occupy the country. Russian forces invaded Ukraine. The invasion was…”

Should be changed to: “…Russia had no plans to occupy the country. Russian forces subsequently invaded Ukraine. The invasion was…”

The addition of “subsequently” improves the flow of the text. Miaguy13 (talk) 03:03, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

 Done ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 20:26, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 February 2024

I would like to suggest the addition to the article in the section of "Human rights violations" a mention of the deliberate targeting of health care, which will likely top 1500 incidents in the extremely near future, or perhaps a small note about this, with a link to the article i maintain - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_strikes_on_hospitals_during_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine Kevin3452 (talk) 21:30, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

You need to propose a specific wording and the sources to cite with it Kevin3452. As is in the instructions of the template. Mr rnddude (talk) 23:58, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Additionally, the article you are maintaining is one you are prohibited from editing directly per WP:GSRUSUKR: Only extended-confirmed editors may make edits related to the topic area. The talk namespace is the only area you may edit in, and without engaging in project internal discussions. This isn't your fault, an EC page lock hasn't been placed on the page, and I don't see the edits presently made as being disruptive, but you should be notified of the restriction nonetheless. Mr rnddude (talk) 00:09, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Well, how about adding after the section

"as well as sexual violence, including cases of rape, sexual assault and gang rape, and deliberate killing of Ukrainian civilians by Russian forces."

"Russia has also systematic attacked Ukrainian medical infrastructure on an unprecedented scale, with the World Health Organization reporting 1422 attacks on healthcare as of 21 December 2023.[1]"

I don't have any particular attachment to the wording, it's just odd that the article does not mention the words "hospital" or "healthcare" while it does have a section that mentions the attacks on the Ukrainian Power grid twice (Perhaps it would fit here better?). I felt as though the page i largely maintain is not really needed as much if it were part of a larger article, but it might be better to just mention it in passing and direct them away from the larger article for more details if desired. Kevin3452 (talk) 21:08, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Shadow311 (talk) 16:10, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

• Now done: With the specific information added this would now appear to be a reasonable request. I did a copy edit on the wording, mainly to remove the editorialising (on an unprecedented scale) and used the bibliographic info for the citation as done in the linked article. Cinderella157 (talk) 01:12, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

"2014 Ukraine crisis" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect 2014 Ukraine crisis has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 February 21 § 2014 Ukraine crisis until a consensus is reached. Yorkporter (talk) 21:09, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 February 2024

Adding Romania to the spill-overs, like Poland, as dozens of drones and missiles hit the Romanian territory. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66727788 Mariusx12 (talk) 17:10, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

 Done Mr. Lechkar (talk) 19:18, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Hello, if you kindly can add it to the location too (in the infobox) as i initially intended this. Thank you. Mariusx12 (talk) 21:33, 23 February 2024 (UTC)