User talk:JzG/Archive 24

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Guy Chapman? He's just zis Guy, you know? More about me

• JzG (talk • contribs • blocks • protects • deletions • moves • archives • privacy policy )

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Read This First

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Terms of Service
By posting on this page you accept the JzG Terms of Service. I endeavour to satisfy good-faith requests to the best of my ability, but if you act like a dick, I will call you a dick. If you act like a troll, I will probably ignore you and may tell you to fuck off. If you want something from me, your best bet is not to demand it on pain of shopping me to ArbCom, because that way is pretty much guaranteed to piss me off to the extent that I will do whatever I can to thwart your plans. This page may contain trolling. Some of it might even be from me, but never assume trolling where a misplaced sense of humour might explain things. I can be provoked, it's not even terribly difficult. You may find, if you provoke me enough, that I will do something I later regret. Only remember, you may regret it more. I am a middle-aged surly bastard who spends his working day wrestling spammers and beating Windows with a stick, but I am capable of seeing good in the most improbable people if they don't go out of their way to make me do otherwise. Guy (Help!) 22:32, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

This user posts using a British sense of humour and does not repress those instantaneous motions of merriment.

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Why

Why is this image unfree? How can I know that? can you explain it to me please? can we use this image in another section in the preity page???? dondoniko

From your user page

Thank you JzG

Thank you for posting some very heartfelt and useful information on my talk page. Truly, it helped me understand a lot which I just did not know.

However, I still am not sure if I have been able to get my complaint through to the right sources regarding the behavior of Arbustoo in making the entry of "firewalking" misleading and inaccurate.

I notice that Arbustoo has censored and removed all the evidence in the logs since I filed my complaint. Also, he has just removed all the previous firewalking information that conflicts with his POV and rewrote the firewalking entry so it only expresses his own point of view. This is a terrible reflection on Wikipedia's integrity. Instead of citing recognized authorities, he cites magicians and discredited theories that have been withdrawn by their proponents. This man is a liability to WP.

With sadness, Tolly Burkan

Your speedy deletion of article 'Men in skirts'

JzG, please justify your speedy deletion of the 'Men in skirts' article. Clause G4 of the Criteria for Speedy Deletion applies only if an article has already been deleted by the Articles for Deletion process, and the recreated article is essentially the same. As far as I am aware, from the article history and talk page, the 'Men in skirts' article had not been through the AfD process. Even if it had, it is highly unlikely that the article you deleted was essentially the same, because of the amount of editing that had taken place recently. Man in a skirt 21:06, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

• Your new username at least makes your agenda clear. It stays gone. Guy (Help!) 21:07, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

• • I'm not happy with your response. It is uncooperative and uncivil, as are your recent comments on the talk page of another user. I've raised both these matters on WP:AN/I. Man in a skirt 21:53, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

• Hey, guess what? I'm not happy with your POV-pushing. Guy (Help!) 22:02, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

• • I reviewed the deleted article and it's pretty clearly recreated content... the article names do not have to be the same, the wording doesn't have to be the same... all that matters is that the intent is the same, and this general theme has been through AfD already. It's not notable enough to get an article of its own regardless of title. ++Lar: t/c 21:37, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

• • Lar, you claim that the general theme has been through AFD already. Lar or JzG: What is the title of the article (other than "Men in skirts" itself) that was deleted, so that I can read the rationale for the original deletion? JzG: Is there a reason why you did not specify the original article's title in the deletion log entry? I am watching this talk page. --Damian Yerrick (talk | stalk) 02:30, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

An idea

How simple would it be for an arrangement to be created where both groups of editors currently in dispute mutually agree to refrain from nominating or voting in Arbuthnot (or Irish republican, but there haven't been any of those for a while) related AfD debates, so rather than (allegedly) partisan editors voting (and arguing in the case of Vintagekits and others) and muddying the waters, a clear consensus from editors who aren't involved is gained? Would that be easily enforceable?

I've put details of the partisan voting here. I will voluntarily agree to this right now, but I think some editors may need a slight nudge to get them to agree. Thoughts? One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 21:45, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

• I think that avoiding each other, or some kind of truce, is an excellent idea. Also, seeing if you can work together on a subject on which you have partial agreement, and see if you can come to respect each other as editors and accommodate your differences. This sounds like motherhood and apple pie, but it's incredibly difficult to do and can make for some excellent content, which reflects all sides of a difficult issue fairly. Some of our content on the Arab-Israeli conflict is like this. Guy (Help!) 21:52, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

• To that note, I have extended an olive branch. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 22:08, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

• This is good. You and he are both valued contributors, I am really happy that my fears look to have been unfounded. Guy (Help!) 22:18, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Very one sided statement of partisan voting by ONIH. Actually I don't have a problem with agreeing to stay off IRA people if VK leaves my articles alone entirely and ONIH discusses rather than afd. I can't speak for anyone else. - Kittybrewster (talk) 22:45, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

As I stated on your talk page, I'm not denying partisan voting has occurred on both sides, but I'm slightly too busy to compile the evidence for you as well. And focussing on the past and arguing about it defeats the object of what I'm trying to accomplish. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 22:57, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I have to say I'm finding it very hard to assume good faith when you write things like:

• Bastun. Has engaged in minor disruptive editing on Irish republicanism related articles.
• Bastun - Keep per RHB and Nunh-huh - standard pile-on vote.
• Bastun - Keep per Mgm, Billreid and BHG - again, typical pile-on vote.
• Bastun - Keep per BHG and Aspenocean - typical pile-on vote from Bastun as normal.

and fail to note under your Martin McCaughey entry:

• Weak keep Vintagekits' #4 and #7 above would appear to be notable. However, the article still needs work....

or as I mentioned elsewhere my keep vote on Bernadette Sands McKevitt (the Afd archive of which seems to have disappeared). I presume the "disruptive editing" to which you refer is the List of members of the Irish Republican Army debacle where I engaged in extensive discussion and moved (rather than deleted) the redlinks to an appropriate project page where they could worked on. One editor from that project objected and undid that work, despite knowing many of the redlinks and even bluelinks led to the wrong person. Yet this is precisely akin to what others have proposed to User:Kittybrewster in regard to the Arbuthnot articles - i.e., prepare a good article first before publishing it to mainspace. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 23:24, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Again, this isn't helping. The McCaughey AfD occurred before your recent activities, so it was intentionally left out. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 23:27, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

So really what you're saying is if I'm voting "against" your side, it should be noted that I'm "partisan" but if I'm voting "for" your side (at the same time as the others are voting against) it should be discounted. How selective. Again, for the record, I vote according to policy. I wasn't "votestacking" when I voted to keep certain of the Arbuthnot articles, I merely saw no reason to repeat what other editors had already said in regard to policy.

Nonetheless, especially given the day that's in it (er, well, yesterday, now!), I do think your proposal is constructive and is definitely worth consideration. Would be interested to hear from the likes of Vintagekits, though. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 23:39, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Replied here to avoid posting lengthy details on Guy's talk page. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 05:56, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Well I tried, and despite the best efforts of myself and Kittybrewster the dispute cannot be solved as you will see from his talk page. I am now voluntarily withdrawing from all aspects of this dispute, and will take no further part in it, and will concentrate on improving articles I wish to edit. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 13:39, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

User:Burntsauce

Perhaps you could help me, and the rest of the wrestling wikiproject out here:

Since the JB196 mislabeling Burntsauce has completely shut down any form of communication attempts with him about his wholesale blanking of articles, which applies solely to professional wrestling articles. When it is pointed out he will not blank articles of biographies with no sources that are unrelated to professional wrestling he will simply delete the comment and ignore everyone.

The wikiproject has put in a large effort to source wrestling articles, many of the major articles went from nearly zero sources to one hundred in mere hours, but request for Burntsauce to leave the information in articles (the information being non-contentious) falls on deaf ears and he continues his blanking before anyone can source the articles in question.

This wholesale blanking nearly always results in the page being fully protected when other editors re-insert the information making the pages unable to be edited by anyone, admin Alkivar (talk · contribs) being especially notable in this regard as having previously shown in arguments favouritism to Burntsauce's actions and will protect articles on Burntsauce's version. The wrestling project has changed its goals to sourcing and fixing articles (many now have more sources than actor or director related featured articles) but this user has seemingly made it his war to delete wrestling biography information from wikipedia without giving anyone a chance to do anything.

Could you help? –– Lid^(Talk) 23:45, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Just a clarification I know of your opinion on ANI about this situation however this message is more to do with the users behaviour than with whether BLP blankings are an effective use of policy (although in the interests of full disclosure my opinion of wholesale blanking of an article when the "external links" alone cover a lot of the information in the article is incorrect application, in line citations are not the be all and end all). –– Lid^(Talk) 23:49, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Standard practice is to remove WP:BLP violations on sight. The assertion that I am only removing WP:BLP violations from professional wrestling articles is completely wrong, but I will say that only the WikiProject to be entirely uncooperative in ensuring that Wikipedia is free of such violations is the WP:PW one. I have stated before that I have no interest in "joining" such a poisonous and insulated atmosphere so disconnected and out of touch with the rest of the Wikipedia community (and policy). One look at the talk page archives there is enough to make a person go mad.

Furthermore, I am not rapidly blanking articles you and others in your project are quite falsely claiming, rather I am bringing them to stub status until they can be properly sourced. Every bit and byte of content is available in the history pages. The difference between the two is the difference between vandalism and upholding policy grounded in good sense.

Finally, I am not removing any opportunity for you or anyone else to source any article which needs to be sourced. In most cases these articles have been identified as unsourced for 6 months or more. If you disagree with the methods by which these articles are being handled and refuse to contact Jimmy Wales, the Arbitration Committee is thataway. Burntsauce 00:00, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

You don't need to join the community, the issue is your unwillingness to even talk to the community. Your talk page seems to be non-existant in that any posts on it are removed, thus negating the purpose of the talk page in the first place.

I did not state you were rapidly blanking articles, in which case an argument could be made for disruption in its extremes, I did state that you remove information that is sourced even in the external links wholesale. It implies to me that if it doesn't have in-line citations then the information listed can be removed, as well as showing that you don't read the external links before erasing the information.

Thirdly you commonly, and often, reply to criticism with "take it up with Jimmy Wales" rather than actually responding yourself, it's a tactic that avoids the issues altogether. It's akin to me saying, if you and I were in an argument, "take it up with the wikimedia foundation". It ignores the arguments put forward and insulates yourself from any criticism by blanketly stating "I'm just the middle man, I have no power over my own actions" which is just irritating due to the impossibility of even having a debate.

Irrelevant to your reply but the reason the project itself feels that you attack only wrestling related articles shows that your copy pasted text of "per WP:A, all material in Wikipedia must be attributable to a reliable, published source" is not to be found among you making edits to such pages as Svetlana Broz and Diana Ross which don't feature references either but are left clean. I know that you also blank other biography articles related, largely, to Jamaican politicians but apart from bot related vandalism reverts you only seem to remove information, never source it. Adding to this is that you have received words of encouragement by all-around loathed banned user JB196 (talk · contribs) through forum postings off-wiki and through sockpuppets. Not only is JB196 loathed by the wrestling wikiproject, he is loathed by wikipedia in general as one of the worst and most persistant vandals in wikipedia history. It doesn't look too favourably on you when he is actively encouraging you.

On a more stylised note I saw you requested Babe Ruth for featured article. I didn't want to comment on the FA page given our current dispute but in my opinion it could not pass FA, largely because the entire Major League Career section is unsourced entirely. If you would wish for Babe Ruth to become a featured article that section especially would need sourcing. My knowledge of Babe Ruth is pretty much non-existant but featured articles require a pretty strong amount of references, usually for a biography the reference number is fromlate twenties to forties.

Well that is a lot of words to read I'll leave it at that, –– Lid^(Talk) 00:44, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Well it seems Burntsauce has decided to not repond, deleting my note on his talk page. –– Lid^(Talk) 19:51, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Mugaliens

I have made a cursory look over this user. He/she has some very technical and useful edits, such as joint precision air drop system. I don't know what the Men in Skirts controversy was about because it has been deleted and I couldn't find an AfD on it. I have worked with 2-3 user when there was a SSP or 3RR dispute and, so far, peace has been attained. I also have an adoptee. My feeling is that this person may know quite a bit and want to contribute on non-skirt topics. Blocking him/her indefinitely will only cause bitterness and socks.

I am willing to consider (not a promise yet) adopting this person through the formal wikipedia adoption system and supervising him/her on the condition that skirt edits are not permitted in the first month and then require discussion with me for a period afterwards. If this is successful, then you will have the satisfaction of knowing that you improved wikipedia in some technical topics. Will you cooperate? If you do, you will be the point man that I will contact in case blocking should be needed.VK35 00:54, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

• Mugaliens has a strong agenda, and is utterly convinced that the only reason we do not have a slew of articles on the male fashion freedom movement is because we feel threatened by it. This is, of course, nonsense; we don't have them because we deleted them, despite his exceedingly tiresome input and that of many sock and meat puppets. I put off sanctions for a long time because he went away, but he has returned and has continued to push and push and push his drivel. I will undelete the AMA request so you can see the kind of thing we have to put up with from this person. Deeply, deeply tiresome, and a massive waste of time and effort, because he absolutely will not be corrected: like all true believers, he thinks the problem is with Wikipedia and must be fixed. Guy (Help!) 06:57, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not a complete newbie, but what's AMA?

I'll will consider your advice carefully. Mugaliens has not responded. If he does, I still have to consider what to do, if anything, as I have not promised adoption (as I said to begin with).
By the way, "Guy" is confusing. At first, I thought JzG and Guy were separate users. A nickname, I suppose!VK35 17:05, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

• AMA request was archived, not deleted: Wikipedia:AMA Requests for Assistance/Requests/November 2006/Mugaliens. see also Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive61#Unbifurcated users Guy (Help!) 06:31, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Block of EnviroGranny

I agree that EnviroGranny is a bit harsh in his Talk Page comments, a bit too quick to revert, etc. However, he did seek mediation and your warning, while funny in a dry sort of way, seems inappropriate especially since it mentions William Pietri as your friend and the idea of using admin privileges to support friends suggests a [{WP:COI]] even if the editor in question richly deserved blocking.

I am not a "friend" of EnviroGranny. My edits to Talk:Sprite (lightning) should make it clear that I have not generally supported his position in the debate. However, I think your style of warning followed by block is a bit too cute and should be far more straightforward. I would suggest that you just give a warning without the cutesie-cutesie and make it clear to even the most dense of editors that it is time to clean up their act.

Respectfully submitted, --Richard 04:20, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Sounded like childish behavior for childish behavior. The block seemed more to demonstrate to EnviroGranny that he is not invincible here, and he cannot just throw his weight(whatever that means) around, insulting people and making false accusations, like a child. I would not consider it conflict of interest, as the block was not a direct result of communication between EnviroGranny and William. The first warning was rather a "please.. just knock it off, let's play nice", which EnviroGranny seemed to escalate into name calling and false accusations. I think it was handled as appropriately as can be. I checked EnviroGranny's contributions and it appears they haven't been around here long, some people have to learn the hard way. Wikidan829 04:25, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

It was a slap with the Wikitrout, richly deserved, and if he stops behaving like an idiot he will have no further trouble from me. Honestly, what did he expect? I told him not to threaten people to keep off his talk, and his response was to threaten me to keep off his talk. He might just as well have asked outright for a block. Guy (Help!) 06:59, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Yup, hey I'm all for it.Wikidan829 14:04, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

OMG I just got it!

I finally got it. After more than a year that I've know you I finally get it. "Just a guy you know" is a quote from one of my favorite books and movies. Head shaking... Zaphod from THE HITCHHIKER'S GUIDE TO THE GALAZY. ROF LOL. :) --CyclePat 16:09, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

• It took you this long? Gag Halfrunt, Zaphod Beeblebrox's personal braincare specialist. "Vell, he's just zis guy, you know?" Oh, and it was a radio show first and best :-) Guy (Help!) 16:17, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/NC16002 disappearance

You seem to have dropped out of this discussion and not responded, but I'm still confused about what you're asking for here. What's wrong with the four sources on the article for constituting multiple non-trivial sources? Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 18:00, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

• I believe they are trivial, not primarily about this flight, and the incident itself seems to me wholly unremarkable, there being any number of crashes of poorly-maintained ex military DC3s in the late forties. But I don't feel the need to fight, others have reviewed it and decided they are adequate, so I shrug my shoulders and walk away. Guy (Help!) 20:29, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

stress?

I just keep seeing your name pop up in 'unilateral' (i.e. challenged) actions, especially deletions, lately, and it seems out of character for zis guy I know... everything okay in your world? -- nae'blis 19:11, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

• Yes, thanks, just dealing with a lot of OTRS tickets, which tends to attract kickback. Wikistress level about 7 on a scale of 1 to 10, was higher but some kind soul blocked user:Man in a skirt - I really did not relish another months-long rounds of soup-spitting from that one. Guy (Help!) 20:19, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Ahh, makes sense.

    

    Cheers, then!

    -- nae'blis 20:25, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Men in skirts

Men in skirts (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) Regarding: 09:07, 5 May 2007 JzG (Talk | contribs) deleted "Men in skirts" (CSD G4: Recreation of Deleted Material)

I'm curious what the previously deleted material was? I can't find a previous AfD for Men in skirts, so am wondering if there was another article or something?

I'm not sure where I stand one way or the other on the article btw, but am curious why this got speedied rather than going to AfD. Mdwh 23:13, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

iirc, JzG has tried to get this article removed before, and failed. This time he reckons he doesn't need excuses, so has made up a lie instead. The article was created by me, from nothing. I received no warning or discussion, and no notice was posted on the article. He just turned up and deleted it, presumably for personal reasons. If anyone knows about wiki appeal procedures, and procedures to get admins de-adminified, I would be grateful for the help. Bards 10:11, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

• And if anone knows about procedures for getting thwarted POV pushers to drop the stick and step away from the horse then I would be grateful for the help. Guy (Help!) 10:20, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I am a POV pusher? First I've heard of it. And I have not been thwarted, ever, by anyone. I was just about to post, for the interest of other readers, that you seem to have pushed for a block of the user called Maninaskirt (see above, and here). If you think I am him, you are wrong. I am me, and only me. What do you have against men and/or skirts, or the combination of them? Bards 10:24, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

The skirts for men crowd are the POV pushers, and one on particular has been vexatious ion the extreme under three successive accounts. Things that have no real existence outside the Bravehearts forums have no place on Wikipedia, as we decided before. Guy (Help!) 10:26, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't know my way around much of wikipedia yet. Where is the record of that decision? I admit it is a potential grey area, and I have tried to be careful. Your assertion that it doesn't exist beyond the bravehearts is not true. The online forums provide a meeting place for an often widely scattered, but philosophically cohesive group of people; and as a source of support. These people meet up in Real Life, and have common Real Life issues to overcome, as described in the article. Offline documented sources, I admit, are thin on the ground, but there are some. Bards 10:34, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

You accuse me of lying above; when you say you recall me trying and failing to have this removed, you are, I think, quite wrong. The concept, yes, I have tried and succeeded in getting that nuked, Lar remembers the debates over Male Unbifurcated Garment (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), Men's fashion freedom (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), undue weight in sections of Skirt and dress (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) and High-heeled shoe (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), pushing of links to kiltmen.org and the Bravehearts forums, and so on. I remember them too. We debated this, the issue of men wearing skirts was decided to be a minor thing, and adequately covered in the section in skirt and dress. Notable concept in relation to the skirt, adequate support for an article on the kilt, the so-called fashion freedom movement? Virtually invisible and lacking dispassionate review - it's that concept which the deleted Men in skirts (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) sought to advance, making it a POV fork of skirt and dress, which is why several previous incarnations at different titles were removed. I have no particular interest in trawling throught he whole bloody thing again, as I did at least twice before with Dr1819 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and Mugaliens (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), because the matter is, I think, well settled. The problem here is that a small number of individuals want to take ethnic dress (including kilts), add the macabi skirt and Tom Cruise, and extend this to assert that skirt wearing by Western men is widespread and normal. Sean Connery and Samual L Jackson seen in kilts, therefore a middle aged businessman turning up to a meeting in a skirt suit and court shoes is unremarkable. Major logical disconnect. Guy (Help!) 11:02, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

It would be very remarkable! (And, therefore, worthy of inclusion?). <joke. But I'm not here to discuss the arguments. I accept that it is debatable and could go either way, and always while developing the article that was in my mind. I'm sure I could put up a very good argument about the merits of the expansion into whole articles of notable, troubled, minority issues; and I am certain I could find hundreds of similar articles. ...

I know Lar from another forum years ago - a cogent and persuasive man. But there are at least a dozen similar forums on the web, each with slightly different angle on it. You can expect more, if it is now your job to delete MIS/MUG-related articles - people like Me and Lar, and some like maninaskirt.

I am discussing this with you because of your unilateral, un-noticed, un-discussed deletion of my article, which I and others unwittingly put a lot of work into. If it is proved and you keep having to dig up the arguments, why not collate them so that you can direct people to them? Especially if, as in this case, you don't want to mightily piss off bona fide relative-newbie wikipedians (like me). Talking to you has softened the blow a little, but I still don't like it. Bards 12:18, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

It is not "debatable", it was debated. It is not "could go either way", it went the way of delete, several times. It is not "unilateral", there were numerous debates and other admins support deletion. Wikipedia is not pitch-till-ya-win, especially for blatant attempts to advance an agenda. Guy (Help!) 12:27, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

You still have me confused with someone else.

"blatant attempts to advance an agenda" = not me. I wrote the article to describe a little-known, interesting, and notable aspect of society, which I know a lot about. I am a cutting-edge, creative kind of guy ;) and I know of quite a few things like that, many of which I could write about. The problem is that with such subjects, providing offline references is always going to be a problem; and you could reasonably accuse me of original research with some of them.

"pitch-till-ya-win" = not me either. I created this article once, and I won't try again. I have no doubt there will be a lot more people who attempt it!

non-debatable = not me. I said that to me, it was debatable in my own mind. You have debated it with other people and won. Perhaps against me you would not win. Who knows.

My point is this: there must be a procedure, or some wiki advice somewhere, to prevent this problem. A newbie puts a stack of work into an article, not realising a similar one has been deleted; he gets opinions and contributions from a dozen other people (eg. here). He spends hours researching the web for sources. He assumes that if there is a problem, there will be a diuscussion. But one day, with absolutely no warning, it all disappears in a puff of high-handed adminship. This could happen to any controversial subject matter. The way this has been handled is a smack in the face. Bards 12:46, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

No, I don't have you confused with anybody. The fact that the subject is inappropriate for inclusion is not your fault, you did not know the history. That happens, doesn't reflect on you at all. The fact that you worked hard on it - apparently egged on by those who did know better, looking at the history - is regrettable, and I am sorry for the inconvenience. There is a way of preventing this, known as salting the earth, and some of the titles used have been salted; others were not. It relies on us thinking of the various titles at which a subject might be created, and until recently there was also a tendency for salt to expire (less so now). One thing you need to know: existence of forums, and posts on them, is not in any way a reliable source or indication for inclusion. Guy (Help!) 12:52, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

It might be possible to salt the earth permanently with a generic template which optionally directs people to the relevant article, or the discussion behind it? - a type of non-automatic redirect, simple, prettified and user-friendly. That would help readers and writers. It would probably make searching more efficient aswell. The "deleted page" template seems too joyless to use commonly. Thank you, anyway, for taking the time to answer my questions. (I still think there will be more like me recreating this article, and you're going to need a system of some sort). Bards 14:29, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

By the way, I've now had a good read of the AfD of MUG last year, and of your other discussions above. I think you are wrong about it, but I can see the water has been muddied, and unless I had been aware of that, my article was bound to end up similar to the deleted one. (And no, I am not a puppet of anyone else, and no, it was not recreated content. It probably reads in a similar way, because MIS guys see common MIS-related issues). But admins are people like anyone else, and need to be persuaded: MUG is a relatively new term mainly used on the web. MIS is a relatively new movement (although it has had its precursors, eg. mainly by fashion designers since the 1960s). The various shops selling skirts and modern kilts for men are a relatively new phenomenon. Guys who wear skirts are relatively creative, adventurous types of people. Trouble is, the movement is not documented except in a small handful of recent books (eg Andrew Bolton's Men In Skirts), exhibitions (eg. see the Victoria & Albert "Men in Skirts", which also showed at New York); and a slew of evangelistic websites devoted to extolling their virtues. I think the web has, to a very large extent, allowed such men to get together and build each other's confidence, allowing the movement to get off the ground. This has resulted in a proliferation of news articles about it (for instance have a look at http://www.imff.net, which archives many of them). Anyway, I'll give wikipedia another 5 years to catch up with the latest developments in cutting edge men's fashion :) (And no, I am not a puppet of anyone else! I am just me, and only me, with similar views and information as other MIS advocates.) However, I share your love of bicycles and music, so you can't be all bad. Bards 15:11, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

No danger of assuming puppetry, a 30-second look at your contribs makes that plain. I can't reply in more detail right now, I'm in the middle of something. Get back to you later. Guy (Help!) 16:01, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I do hope that comment wasn't directed at me. Whether someone is a POV-pusher or not, I am concerned about assumptions being made on AfDs of other articles, and the AfD process being bypassed. I'm worried about POV-pushing on your part - speedy deleting articles because you appear to have an axe to grind against this particular user. Both myself and Damian_Yerrick are clearly not anything to do with the guy wh's been making these articles. I'll volunteer to put the article through AfD myself if you like - if the consensus is to delete, then fine. Mdwh 09:51, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

As I have made abundantly clear above, the editor I consider a problem is the one who has edited as Dr1819 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), Mugaliens (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), Dr1819 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and Man in a skirt (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). That user, too, accused me of haivng an agenda. Consensus after numerous debates was that it's the other way around. Guy (Help!) 10:00, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Consensus was, according to last year's debate, that "MUG" or "Male Unbifurcated Garment" was a neologism, and the article was deleted mainly on that basis. I have stated that my contribution was not a recreation of that article (the reason given for your deletion this year). So why, exactly, did you delete it? - and why are you not apologising now, and offering to restore it and begin a proper AfD process? It also bothers me a little, that last year's article was not simply renamed to something else, rather than deleted. For all your rational arguments, JzG, and despite that I can see you're not a bad guy, I think you have some hidden subconscious thing going on which is leading you to be negative at every turn. Bards 10:43, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

That was one of the numerous debates. Another say the fashion freedom article deleted and redirected to skirt and dress, where there is a section which covers this with appropriate weight. Several titles were tried and rejected. The whole concept was discussed at nauseating length and the conclusion was that anything more than that constitutes undue weight. We have kilt, we have skirt and dress, we have cross-dressing, and what is not covered i those three articles does not appear to be significant. Guy (Help!) 11:42, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

What I wrote was significant because it was about a group of people. "Men in skirts" are comparable with Victorian dress reform#Rational Dress Society, but from the perspective of the opposite gender. Both 'kilt' and 'skirt or dress' are about types of garment. The people I described may wear either of those classes of garment, and others, and they are by definition and intent a different thing to cross-dressers. Now that you've deleted it, there is nothing to describe that group of people, and the issues and problems they face.

I also disagree with last year's decision. There are numerous articles about specific types of skirts and dresses, which are not covered in "skirt and dress" - which only acts as a generalised introduction to the subject. See Category:Skirts and Category:Dresses, which I created and populated earlier this year to group together those articles. There is no reason why there should not be an article about types of skirt designed for men, such as those sold by Midas Clothing. In fact, such an article would complete the set, and compliment the other articles, very nicely. The term "MUG" is probably a neologism coined in the last 5 years or so by online forums, and personally I've never liked it; but "Skirts for men" would be a reasonable title for it.

However, as I've said before this is not about my or your opinion. It is about your decision to delete, based on your erroneous assumptions and (as I now believe) rooted in personal prejudices, which are unduly colouring your entire outlook. Bards 15:00, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

You assert that it's comparable with Victorian dress reform#Rational Dress Society. I notice two things: first, that is attributed to a questionable source; second, it is not a stand-alone article but a single paragraph in a larger article (just as Skirt and dress#Male wear is a section in a larger article). No substantial external sources have been cited to indicate that it is more significant than that article states. And yes, it's obvious that you don't agree with last year's decision - neither did the people who came along from the Bravehearts forums - but that doesn't actually change anything. We have a few references about the brief vogue exemplified by Cruise and Beckham, some forums advancing an agenda, and pretty much nothing else. Guy (Help!) 15:59, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

If someone wrote an article about the Rational Dress Society, it would be be separated into another article and linked. Perhaps someone will. Is that your last defence? All your other defences have been answered. If references are the problem, you should insist on having them, not delete the article. How many other objections will you raise, and be defeated on? I think your phrase, "pitch-till-ya-win", applies more to you than to anyone else here. Bards 16:25, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

<- De-indenting...

So would you please restore the references from the deleted article to someone's userspace (either mine or Bards) so that we can use them to cite sources in Skirt and dress#Male wear? --Damian Yerrick (talk | stalk) 16:51, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

An editor has asked for a deletion review of Men in skirts. Since you closed the deletion discussion for this article or speedy-deleted it, you might want to participate in the deletion review. Bards 21:22, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Strawman sockpuppet

IMO, User:Chemist3456 appears to be a Strawman_sockpuppet specifically created for Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Paranormal. Either that, or someone is putting some time and effort into being a dick. His current biased edits to Astrology seem strangely parallel to comments on astrology in the RfArb. Bears watching [1]. - LuckyLouie 23:37, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

• Yes, I agree. I posted it to WP:ANI for review, but this smells so strongly of socks that I have blocked it. Guy (Help!) 10:19, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Unlinking deleted articles

Huh? Since when do we unlink deleted articles? I know that particular case is rather controversial, but if you remove links like this, especially on old talk pages, it makes it terribly confusing for people reading pages months or years later. If the original user referred to an existing page at the time, the red-link should be left to show that it was probably later deleted. Removing red-links from article namespace I can understand, but this is userspace. I know that if I had red-links on my user pages, I wouldn't want them delinked. If this is a specific case, then fair enough, but I hope you don't remove red-links outside the main article namespace in general. Please let me know if I'm missing a debate somewhere that discussed this. Thanks. Carcharoth 23:52, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

• Someone else was doing the same, I was just helping out. It's so that we can watch for problems with this particular article, which as you know is uniquely contentious. Guy (Help!) 06:39, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

• So it is not redlinks in general? Just this one? And how does removing the redlinks help reduce the problem? Carcharoth 10:02, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

• Some poeple monitor links to that article (and a very small number of toher deleted articles) to watch for trouble brewing. It really is only a very small number of articles that are affected. Guy (Help!) 10:18, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

• OK. Thanks. And I see now why red-links are a problem. Some people still click on them to create them! Carcharoth 11:56, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

"Kill it now, please."

• Corporate censorship (AfD discussion)

As you can see, the word "kill" in your nomination should have linked to Wikipedia:Cleanup. ☺ Uncle G 01:30, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

LOL! I was about to say 'kill' should have said "improve". That is a big improvement! Carcharoth 02:05, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

• Ah, the always excellent Uncle G. No crap article is safe from his hands! Guy (Help!) 06:36, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Corporate censorship (2). sorry, Uncle G but still not an encyclopedic article by a long chalk.--Doc^g 09:06, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

What the hell? Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Corporate censorship. I never saw a "speedy keep" closure like that before. I thought "Speedy Keep" was like a WP:SNOW where everyone is saying "keep" and the nomination is spurious? --kingboyk 23:43, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Request to block. Should not WP community block them all?

Dear Guy,

You recently bocked Biggy P and sock puppets and you can rest assure you did right thing.

Here is why: 2 more sock puppets were found to match On the Diff and at the top, it says declined, but at the bottom, the admin revised the case and changed his/her mind and caught them coming from Biggy P's IP address 75.19.58.45. Therefore, Check user shows Iclaudius2 and MasterChemical = 75.19.58.45.

One question that begs to be asked, shouldn't that IP address be blocked for good, in light of so much vandalism? Or, is this enough evidence? BTW, I love that inspirational message on your talk page, I made a copy and put it to mine, I hope you don't mind that —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jrod2 (talk • contribs) 21:24, 10 May 2007 (UTC).

Micronations

Well, I tried to clean that category up and nominate the worst articles for deletion, but I think I'm losing the battle. Gene Poole is currently working his way through my contribs of the day and rolling me back, and the usual suspects (3, 4 or 5 fans) voicing keep on the AfDs will be enough to result in Keep, unless they're closed by somebody who doesn't just count numbers. I don't really have the time to go through every article painfully reconstructing it from the sources as I did with "New Utopia", and Gene Poole would probably roll my work back anyway... WP:OWN clearly doesn't have a lot of teeth, nor WP:RS, WP:V, WP:NPOV or indeed dear old WP:CRUFT :( --kingboyk 00:15, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

St. Clements University protection

St. Clements University has been hit six times in the last two days. Arbustoo 03:30, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Also give Cbeech (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) some guidance. It is a WP:SPA interested in the Louisiana Baptist Mill article. Arbustoo 03:31, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Vandal

You're an administrator, right? I've got problems with editor User: CEP78. He's disrupting the Bouncer (doorman) article and refuses to cease his actions. What should I do about this? Gamer Junkie 06:05, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for taking care of that. Gamer Junkie 08:49, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Mike Farrell

Why does Wiki disallow bonafide information on the terrorist actions of Mike Farrell and Ed Anser? The link I posted was valid. http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=7042

Is Wiki so leftist that the other side cannot be told. I know that liberals hate freedom of speech unless they're the ones doing the talking. What's the deal? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Libsmasher (talk • contribs) 16:40, 11 May 2007 (UTC).

• Wikipedia disallows all poorly-sourced defamatory material about living individuals and all grossly biased edits. Guy (Help!) 20:13, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

• Dear "Guy". Poorly documented? From the State Department's own information? If it was poorly documented as you say, then why hasn't lefty Mike rebutted it? His actions are also well-documented by the FBI and documents are available via FOIA. What do you need for proof, the Queen herself posting?

• The door is over there on your left, please don't slam it on the way out. Wikipedia needs more POV-pushing zealots like it needs a hole in the head. Guy (Help!) 11:17, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

• Over there on your left, geddit? Ha ha! The lefty cabal | talk 11:22, 14 May 2007 (UTC).

I was working on the assumption that there is pretty much nothing on this editor's right :-) Guy (Help!) 11:26, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Good one, "Guy". :-) (I've always wondered what that type of scare quotes means. "You so-called Guy, you?" Qué?) Bishonen | talk 11:39, 14 May 2007 (UTC).

I'm a guy named Guy - in fact, named Guy four times over. Guy André (from the greek andros, meaning guy) Chapman (chap, an English slang equivalent of guy, man, a guy). Guy (Help!) 13:02, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Ha! And I'm named per contra: a bishonen is a 1) pretty 2) young 3) guy; I'm none of the three. Bishonen | talk 20:19, 14 May 2007 (UTC).

Anything ever come from Celebrity (game)?

Did anything ever get resolved regarding the person who contacted you? In a stunningly coincidental happenstance while reading some intellectual property law blogs, I came upon the following post:The Microsoft of Kickball. One choice quote: "You can't copyright the rules of a game (although you can copyright the specific wording used), and in any case, neither of the rules cited sound particularly original."

Seems right in line with the situation you're handling (someone claiming copyright, generic rules, etc.). Mahalo. --Ali'i 20:31, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

• Interesting. My view is that we should allow a link to the manufacturer's site, but not describe it as being their exclusive property. The article does lack something, though: encyclopaedic content. Just rules (as it is) violates WP:NOT. Guy (Help!) 20:36, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Possible sock of EnviroGranny

Just thought I'd give you a heads up about something. BirdHunters created her account thirteen minutes after you blocked EnviroGranny and her first actions on At the Center of the Storm were to revert the page so it contained an image uploaded by EnviroGranny and YouTube copyvio links originally added by EnviroGranny. The edit summary on the reversion would suggest the two editors are the same. Although she is continuing to push for the inclusion of the links, I'm not sure that any admin tools are necessary on that article, yet. However, I thought you might want to know about the block evasion. ObiterDicta ( pleadings • errata • appeals ) 02:15, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

• Agreed. I blocked the sock, you may wish to report the main account at WP:ANI. Guy (Help!) 07:39, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

The Settlers

Hi. Really helpful tweaks, but do you know the name of the initial bassist? I had always thought they were a threesome to start with and that a bassist was added. As it stands, there is an ammbiguity in the article (though your info would appear to come from the horse's mouth, so to speak). Best wishes BONNUIT 18:46, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

• I can ask, I guess. Guy (Help!) 18:47, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for providing semiprotection to the Black billionaires & Donald Watkins article

The attempts to add unsourced claims (and remove sourced claims) to those articles has been persistent and it's nice to see an admin get involved. Hopefully the person wont bother signing in to get past the semiprotection. Pacingcar 16:46, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Notability of FFI

I'm tired of people coming in and doubting Ali Sina's notability. Is there an end to this? I mean, these people are never going to agree that Ali Sina is notable. How can this debate be closed for once and for all? Sorry to bother you like this, but since you had agreed that Ali is notable, I thought I would approach you and we could get this wrapped up somehow. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 03:55, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

• I wasn't aware I'd agreed he was notable, since I don't actually know who he is, FFI is notable and the last AfD indicates strong support ofr an article, so I archived that debate as a waste of time and the wrong venue anyway. Guy (Help!) 08:35, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Thanks! that should help atleast for a while. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 11:58, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Image:VictoratCosford8107.jpg

Hello, JzG. An automated process has found and removed an image or media file tagged as nonfree media, and thus is being used under fair use that was in your userspace. The image (Image:VictoratCosford8107.jpg) was found at the following location: User talk:JzG/Archive-Jan-2007. This image or media was attempted to be removed per criterion number 9 of our non-free content policy. The image or media was replaced with Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg , so your formatting of your userpage should be fine. Please find a free image or media to replace it with, and or remove the image from your userspace. User:Gnome (Bot)-talk 10:37, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Steve Rizzono

Tricky one this. It was created by Bearhug Lewis who is a JB196 sockpuppet editing on an open proxy, but it survived AfD. I'm thinking it might need someone a bit rouge to ruthlessly apply the banning policy? One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 13:02, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Fear of tights?

Guy, you recently tried to nominate Pantyhose for men for deletion. It has occurred to me that you may be suffering from a fear of tights. There's nothing to be afraid of. Tights are lovely to put on and wear. Many men now wear them; under trousers for everyday wear, and during physical exercise, such as cycling. There are several manufacturers making tights specifically for men. Collanto make tights only for men, including a product that suits you. 212.126.143.111 21:21, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

• LOL, nice troll :-) I have tights, this type anyway, and I aborted the nomination only because it had recently been kept. Wrongly, IMO, since it's essentially pushing the pretence that a few guys wearing them for specific purposes makes it perfectly normal to wear them as street wear as women do, which is twaddle, but that is a fight for another day. Guy (Help!) 21:25, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

List of Muslims DRV

Hey. I know you get frustrated, I know we're on opposite sides, but I'd never accuse you of lying. That never ever crossed my mind, and I don't want you thinking I did. If my phrasing gave you that impression, I'm really sorry, because it was not my intent. I've always respected you in disagreement, even in this one, and this hasn't changed that, so I hope you can accept my apology. --badlydrawnjeff talk 21:28, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

• It's OK, Jeff, but you did go too far here. I'm not going to get worked up about it again, but suffice it to say that I saw the deleted article and it existed solely to promote racism and islamophobia, and we need it like we need a hole in the head. Enough. I'm done with that one. Anyway, kudos for apologising, and I hope we can still be friends :-) Guy (Help!) 21:37, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Kudos to you both for putting that unpleasentness behind you. El_C 02:20, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Centiare

I couldn't help but notice the quarrel with my co-developer Gregory Kohs. What exactly is the hostility so I can help resolve this issue? And I'm just starting the process of decking out my version of new york city with rss, videos, and amazon associates links. check it out and tell me what you think. Andman8 02:48, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

• First and foremost, he wants to make money out of our volunteer-run project. The community as a whole really doesn't like that. But there are ideological differences, too: Gregory seems to think Wikipedia is doomed to fail as a business directory because it does not allow subjects to have editorial control, but since we are explicitly not a business directory I don't see this as a problem. His arguments for paid editing have been rejected by the community, the closest most people will come to endorsing aid editing is if some benevolent organisation were to fund a group of editors with resources to edit on subject areas, but not the funding provider, and without editorial interference. And of course the fundamental recurring problem is that Gregory thinks he's right, we think he's wrong, he doesn't accept the community's view and has consistently evaded blocks and bans to pursue conflict of interest edits. We have never at any time seen any evidence that Gregory's interest in Wikipedia is anything other than selfish. I can see why he'd still be interested - Centiare has demonstrated pretty clearly that his model lacks the attraction of Wikipedia to the reader community and the editor community, which we could have told him if he'd asked - but actually I don't feel any great personal animosity to him (despite his attacks on me), I just don't like people who refuse to accept consensus. Guy (Help!) 08:25, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

User:Chemist3456

On User talk:Chemist3456 I noticed you blocked him, can you contact a checkuser to get his identity? Thanks! Wooyi^{Talk to me?} 02:55, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

• CheckUser is not for fishing. Self-evident socks can just be blocked. Guy (Help!) 08:15, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

St. Clements University

61.93.49.164 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) won't use the talk page, explain his removals, and has exceeded the template warning. St. Clements University has been vandalized many more times since I last brought it to your attention. Arbustoo 16:01, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

WP:RFPP is that way, they probably won't protect it due to the low level of vandalism (once a day), but I have blocked the IP for a while. Guy (Help!) 17:48, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

09 F9...

Please look at: User talk:Aktron. I'm sorry for the style I used (in my contributions, in my edit summaries), but I was very shocked when seeing what was happening. Also I was quite surprised of removing the number from my talk post and mainly of your warning on my talk page - that if I add the key again, I will be blocked.

I think, if there would be any wish to ban this number, it is to be done as ordinary copyvio - because particullary thought it is copyright violation (however we could think it is ridiculous). Also the official policy must change (of course only a bit to avoid such problems). I know that a step like this would be very hard to proceed, but current conditions are simply too bad and can't continue to the future (I think this in law refers to legislative crisis).

Current status of removing the number is maybe good for the foundation and the project, because it prevents any problems with legal threats, but it means that the admins are violating official policy. I believe I'm not the only one, who has this opinion. I personally do not support any of the sides of this conflict, but I'm very unhappy if official policy is violated in this way. This means, that the rules, according to which many users were blocked and banned can be used "only in some case" not universally.

Such a situation, that we can see here, would I never accept on Czech wikipedia (where I'm sysop) and I will do anything to solve it peacefully according to our local official policies (závazná pravidla). Thanks for any help. --Aktron (t|c) 18:37, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Review

Please review the contributions of Maurauth (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Thanks. Hipocrite - «Talk» 18:48, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Review for what? ≈ Maurauth ^(09F9) 21:03, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Formal notification regarding AACS issue

Due to the possibility of RfAr filings over your unilateral reverts and full protects with regards to the AACS encryption key controversy page, I am notifying you that the Arbitration Committee has already considered a very similar case, and an overwhelming majority held that the sysop in that case in question was in the wrong, but because he acted in good faith no further reprimand was warranted. This notification may be brought up in future RfAr filings as evidence that your actions were not carried out in good faith, as you are now aware of this prior precedent. A link to that arbitration case is available from the above-linked AACS talk page. Konekoniku 20:40, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

• If you had checked, you'd have found I already took it to ArbCom myself, and Kim Bruning has seen fit to remove it; we will wait and see, I think. I believe I have explained myself pretty well: wilfully evading the sitewide regex filter is a sure sign you are doing something badly wrong, in my view. Guy (Help!) 20:44, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Fu Jow Pai

An editor has asked for a deletion review of Fu_Jow_Pai. Since you closed the deletion discussion for this article or speedy-deleted it, you might want to participate in the deletion review. Fujowpai 20:42, 15 May 2007 (UTC) I'm disappointed you jumped right to the admin hasty delete button, without any opportunity for peer review. That's not in the spirit of wikipedia. We'll follow the formal processes for addressing the issue.

Number That Must Not Be Named (take II)

I've also left a note at Talk:AACS_encryption_key_controversy#position --Kim Bruning 20:53, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

And thank you for your patience. :-) --Kim Bruning 20:55, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Further reading: Actually, there's a recently rejected case about roughly the same topic: [2] --Kim Bruning 21:33, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

de:Benutzer:JzG

Did you mean to flip to French at the bottom? :) Wikidan829 13:23, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

• Yes - that was the point :-) Guy (Help!) 21:44, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Miskin

Hello,

An Arbitration case in which you commented has been opened: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Miskin. Please add any evidence you may wish the arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Miskin/Evidence. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Miskin/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, - Penwhale | ^{Blast him / Follow his steps} 17:12, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Motion to close

I appreciate your support of course, but I don't agree with the overall assessment in your motion to close the Rfc on me. I think the Rfc is petty, vindictive and incivil...brought on by those who have either openly engaged in trying to add more CT to 9/11 articles, or have supported others efforts to do so. Basboll and Tyrenius have made some extremely hostile demands and commentary as far as I am concerned. Hell, the Rfc is extremely hostile...Basboll apparently is not satisfied and has requested an advocate...this no longer has any atmosphere of dispute resolution, and has instead become transformed into some effort to "get MONGO" at all costs. Basboll's contributions have gone from being mildly annoying at times to being vendetta driven. I'm considering an arbcom case regarding single purpose accounts, soapboxing and misuse of the dispute resolution process to gain an advantage in a content dispute. He has stated numerous times, as has Tyrenius, that they suggest I not edit 9/11 related pages, unless of course, I can rise to some unachievable level of wikilove for vandalism, libel and abuse of our articles to promote CT nonsense.--MONGO 21:28, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

• I'm sorry you feel that way. Consider this: if you were just a fraction more emollient in your response to these idiots, they would not have even the slightest hint of a chink in your armour, you would enjoy the unqualified support of almost all (rather than the support and admiration of many but minor misgivings in others) and you would make it even more obvious who are the trolls and who the guys in white hats. As you probably know, my response to unrepentant vandals and POV pushers is to tell them to fuck off, but your position is made more difficult by the fact that (a) they won't, (b) they have friends who won't either and (c) you are no longer an admin, so you can't simply slap them with the banhammer, you have to persuade someone like me to come along and do that for you. Life is simpler all round when there is no "yeah, but" hovering in the air. Now I know I'm a fine one to talk, and have had my share of slaps with the Wikitrout for losing my patience with people who, after all, would try the patience of a saint, but that is how I see it. I absolutely agree that the nest of POV-pushing that is conspiracy theory articles needs to be dynamited. I applaud your tenacity in dealing with these vexatious and often dangerously unstable individuals. I salute you for taking on one of the worst jobs on Wikipedia, and keeping it up through ArbCom and elsewhere. In passing, I would note that it is likely that closure would achieve near-unanimous support pretty rapidly, and allow the silly thing to be closed, which was my aim. I want the nutters taken to ArbCom, and I want the case to produce a unanimous and unambiguous endorsement of policy against them. Play the long game. Guy (Help!) 21:44, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I think closing it is the best thing. It's nothing but a crapshoot at this point. I doubt anything is going to alleviate Basboll's unmitigated indignation about this sordid affair...but perhaps had he should have let things go a long time ago....myself, him and lot of others might have been able to spend their time doing more productive things. Regardless, the extremely limited examples Basboll provided in which one might claim I am incivil enough to warrant an Rfc, much less an arbcom case, could be found by cherry picking almost anyone's contributions if they have been here as long as I have and have worked on as many controversial issues. Additionally, (and I know you know this), I have only started one case of action regarding anyone...Seabhcan, so it's simply not my nature to "go after" anyone here...I really do try to egress from situations if at all possible...I'm not deliberately seeking out places to argue with people...I want peace. I have an article at peer review now that I have been distracted from making the finishing touches on, and have offered suggestions to another on their peer review request...9/11 articles are but a tiny fraction of what I contribute to here. Lastly, I do concur that Basboll is definitely not one of the "problem" editors to the CT phenomenon...I have applauded his efforts on the Collapse of the World Trade Center openly...I simply can't possibly imagine exactly what his problem is at this point. My efforts on the 9/11 articles likely gave rise to my article on ED, Cplot trolling and other venues...maybe my blunt-no-nonsense approach to dealing with them here has created these reprecussions...then again, maybe the efforts by some of these persons are coordinated off-wiki in overt efforts to coerce editors from opposing them here....me being one of the most vocal opponents to their efforts...the ability to neutralize me might make others more wary about fighting them off...Durin has stated openly that this is one of the very reasons he stays away from these articles now. I am not inclined to paranoia, but this seems to be a likely fit. I will admit though, that I do very much appreciate your support and will always take whatever advise you have to heart. Best wishes.--MONGO 22:18, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Spoiler tags

I'm waiting for some sort of consensus, but if you're going to delete them, at least get rid of the endspoiler tags as well. They leave annoying extra blank lines otherwise. Clarityfiend 22:52, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

• Example, please, I put that in the serach terms as well so if I'm missing thme there's a variant name. I'm only doing it for things over 10 years old, I think, for which there is no obvious rationale. I mean, Jack and the beanstalk - with a spoiler tag? Guy (Help!) 22:54, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Unblock

Hi Guy, Heatedissuepuppet (talk · contribs) posted an unblock request which I have granted per legitimate use of a sockpuppet account (I was only vaguely aware of that part of the policy untill now). I haave reviewed the contributions of both accounts and have satisfied myself that they are not being used in tandem to edit war etc and the main account is not misbehaving. Posting this here to keep you in the loop as the blocking admin. If you have any questions, feel free to contact me about it. Viridae^Talk 23:37, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Viridae, I do not agree with your decision to unblock this account and think it should be reblocked. No one has the right to a second account. They are just tolerated in some circumstances. Using a second account to edit war is not okay. This gives a user the freedom to misbehave without having it linked to his behavior on the main account. This is an improper use of a second account. Take care, FloNight 23:48, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Have a look at WP:SOCK, where it says users may use a second account to keep heated issues away from their main account. Having served a block on both accounts for a while now (between 2 and 3 days) I believe the edit warring block has been served, and since this is a specifically stated legitimate use of a sock account per WP:SOCK, he should not continue to be blocked IMO. Viridae^Talk 23:56, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

He has no right to have an account to give him cover to edit war and protect his good name on his main account. And it is wrong for him to be doing it. Again, no one has the right to a second account. I feel that he has abused the use and should not use it any further. FloNight 00:02, 17 May 2007 (UTC)