Talk:Brandon Teena

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Am I missing something?

Noticing the recent flurry of activity on the article, I still don't see any scholarly citations supporting the use of pronouns reflected in this article. I recognize that some editors who are watching this page have very strong opinions about the appropriate gender of pronouns to implement here but opinions alone, no matter how strongly asserted, are nothing more than original research, which according to WP policy is not acceptable for article content. Moreover, WP policy regarding self-identification seems strictly limited to the user space. Am I missing seeing the citations which support this usage? I need help here: Since I am unaware of any shred of evidence that there is scholarly, peer-reviewed support for this usage, please accept this as a respectful request for acceptable citations (even from DSM) which would support the use of applying male pronouns to the murder victim described in this article. Thank you. Gwen Gale 06:42, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

{{POV-check}}

It seems there are differing opinions of the proper pronoun for Brandon Teena. Though these are opinions (and therefore objective), many of the people on the talk page continually consider themselves to be absolutely accurate. According to the "ethical" definition, Brandon Teena should be called a man and therefore referred to as a "he" but according to the "scientific" definition of a man Teena should be referred to as a she, especially considering Brandon Teena does not match any of the qualifications (which would make the gender ambiguous) specified by Dysprosia (and therefore has no medical defintion as a man). I'm not supportive of either side of the debate; I merely care about the encyclopedic nature of Wikipedia that is clearly not being met here. Wikipedia is not here to discuss "feelings" and while it may be socially and morally unacceptable to address a transgendered person as anything other than what they wish to be adressed as, it is still necessary to remain entirely objective, and feelings are certainly difficult to objectively discuss.(71.234.63.192 22:27, 5 January 2007 (UTC))

Opinions are subjective, not objective. Thankfully, we have the WP Manual of Style which is very clear:

"Where known, use terminology that subjects use for themselves (self-identification). This can mean using the term an individual uses for himself or herself, or using the term a group most widely uses for itself. This includes referring to transgender individuals according to the names and pronouns they use to identify themselves." [1] (emphasis mine)

This is an old and haggard topic. Gwen, you're not getting anywhere with your talk of original research. Identifying transgender individuals by their chosen pronoun is policy, as the WP Manual of Style makes abundantly clear. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 22:36, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

If it's WP policy then, it appears to be otherwise wholly unsupported and in conclict with other WP policy against OR, since I'm unaware of any scholarly or peer-reviewed citations which could support the use of personal pronouns asserted in this article.

Meanwhile, could you please provide a scholarly source which confirms the murder victim self-identified with male personal pronouns? Gwen Gale 06:10, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

If someday that becomes the requirement, I'll consider devoting a moment to your request. In the meantime, WP policy is clear and OR is clearly not the issue. Feel free to bring your opinion that the two policies conflict to the appropriate policy pages - because the article on a murdered transsexual isn't the forum. Good luck in your efforts to resolve what you see as a policy conflict on the appropriate policy pages (I'd start with the Style and OR pages), but be aware that your views may be likely to be seen by others as a smokescreen for transphobia and you should make a concerted effort to address those potential concerns if your goal is to improve, and not to disrupt, Wikipedia. Good day to you. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 06:18, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

That's not what I asked. Please provide a scholarly source which confirms the murder victim self-identified with male personal pronouns. Thank you. Gwen Gale 06:25, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Not required. She changed her name when she began identifying as male. From the BBC, for example: "But Brandon's mother JoAnn is campaigning for justice for her child, who was born Teena Brandon but flipped her names when she started living as a boy." Good night. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 06:27, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

With all due respect, I believe you're mistaken. This extraordinary use of male personal pronouns requires documented support. Please provide a scholarly source which confirms the murder victim self-identified with male personal pronouns.

Your kind warning that I might be opening myself up to accusations of transphopia is appreciated as well-meant but ultimately, I think it's unhelpful. Moreover, it's serious a violation of WP policy to speculate on my motives. Hence, I respectfully ask you to refrain from making such references and comments in your edits here, thanks. Meanwhile, I'm aware you seem to be extremely sensitive about this topic. No worries, I wholly respect your PoV. I mean, all the way. My only care is the encyclopedic content and tone of the article. Gwen Gale 06:36, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

' This extraordinary use of male personal pronouns requires documented support.'? That support has been provided to you on multiple occasions. I did not speculate on your motives (you just commented on my 'sensitivity', which is rather uncivil. Your argument is sputtering, and even within one post is self-contradictory. Again, go fight your policy battle in the right forum and don't use the page of a murdered transsexual to explore your concerns about contradictory policy with contradictory arguments. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 06:39, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

The support provided in the past was from highly specialized advocacy sites. I'm not fighting WP policy at all. Please stick to the topic. I'm asking for a scholarly citation supporting the article's implicit assertion that Brandon Teena self-identified with male personal pronouns. Gwen Gale 06:49, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Even if what Ryan said was wrong, this is a biographical article, and a "scholarly citation" is not required to prove an issues of fact - something such as a newspaper article will do just fine. Brandon Teena was very widely referred to as "he" in the press at that time, because, like Wikipedia, the vast majority of the reputable press has similar points in their manuals of style. Thus we do similarly. Rebecca 06:55, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Did I say something wrong? Let me know and I'll be sure to learn from my error. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 07:11, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

All I've seen here have been references on advocacy sites. Could you please point me to some newspaper or wire articles which support your statement Brandon Teena was very widely referred to as "he" in the press at that time. I would also appreciate seeing a few citations supporting your assertion that like Wikipedia, the vast majority of the reputable press has similar points in their manuals of style. Thanks. Gwen Gale 07:01, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

'Self-identification' is the standard on Wikipedia, not 'scholarly and specific proof an individual used certain specific pronouns'. Personally I find it incredible that you can accept that Brandon Teena used a male name and identified as male and DIDN'T use male pronouns. I think you'd need to prove your POV, not demand speciifc scholarly proof about the specific question of pronoun usage. -- 07:11, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Please stop trying to deflect this discussion away from the requested citaions which so far, don't seem to be forthcoming. Only for clarity, I'll repeat my request. I would like citations (for the first they don't even have to be scholarly, multiple mainstream press and wire publications will do) supporting the following two assertions:

• Brandon Teena was very widely referred to as "he" in the press at that time
• like Wikipedia, the vast majority of the reputable press has similar points in their manuals of style

Thanks again... and cheers! Gwen Gale 07:32, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Not gonna happen, least not from me. Citations for those assertions (what the press does) are not required to validate the current policy of using a transgendered person's self-identification as the deciding factor regarding pronouns. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 07:36, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Following that, I take it you reject Rebecca's use of the press as a posible means of support for the use of these pronouns? Likewise her assertion that the manuals of style used by these organizations would support this use? I mean, I want to confirm my take on your input, that the only support you're asserting here is Wikipedia policy regarding self-identification? Thanks for your patience btw. Gwen Gale 07:42, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Rebecca's opinions are her own. I stand by my own words and no-one else's. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 07:44, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

That's cool. Given that you're citing WP policy regarding self-identification, please provide a scholarly citation supporting the article's implicit assertion that Brandon Teena self-identified with male personal pronouns. Alternately (and reasonably put) I think a scholarly citation supporting an assertion that Brandon consistently identified as a "transgendered male" will do. I understand how potentially sensitive this discussion is. My only concern is encyclopedic and my support of WP policy is a given. Meanwhile I've only ever seen unsupported assertions along these lines on advocacy sites and personal webpages. Gwen Gale 07:57, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Not required. He identified as male and you'll have to provide proof he didn't. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 07:58, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

You're making the assertion, not me. Gwen Gale 08:22, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

We should probably stop feeding the troll, anyway. A look at Gale's contributions reveals a lot of this sort of bizarre dispute-starting. Rebecca 08:01, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Please provide some diffs to support that assertion, thanks. Gwen Gale 08:19, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Goodnight Gale. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 08:03, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

We have some troubling Wikipedia policy violations here:

• Rebecca has engaged in a personal attack by calling me a troll. Not only is this a policy issue, it focuses the discussion away from my reasonable requests for acceptable citations.

• User:RyanFreisling and Rebecca refuse to provide the requested citations.

So far, the use of male personal pronouns on the article appears to be unsupported, but retained in the article only by aggressive baiting and other threatening edits by two or more users. There may indeed be scholarly support for the use of male personal pronouns in this article, but it's not cited. Never mind you guys are calling me a troll and a transphobe or whatever, I utterly understand how you might misinterpret my questions and requests concerning such a sensitive and emotional topic. I support Wikipedia policy and accordingly would like to see some acceptable citations backing up these assertions. Gwen Gale 08:19, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

As I said, here's one from the BBC: "But Brandon's mother JoAnn is campaigning for justice for her child, who was born Teena Brandon but flipped her names when she started living as a boy." and "Brandon, 21, had lived as a boy for several years, strapping her breasts down, wearing men's clothes and padding her underwear with socks. She was also dating a woman, Lana Tisdale, who initially believed she was a boy but remained with her when she discovered the truth. Six days before she died Brandon was attacked and raped by Lotter and Nissen, who had recently found out she was actually a girl." [2] Brandon Teena was living as a man when he was murdered. QED. WP policy dictates we use male pronouns. Now stop it. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 08:23, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

User:RyanFreisling, thanks for that. It's a start. My first concern is that this news article doesn't refer to Brandon with male personal pronouns (it refers to Brandon as "she"). If anything, I think this supports changing the pronoun usage in the Wikipedia article (although I'm aware you choose to derive support strictly through your interpretation of the self-identification element of WP policy and I respect that).

As I said before, there may indeed be scholarly support for the assertion that Brandon self identified as a male transexual but while this BBC article uses the phrase "lived as a boy," while similar, that's not the same thing as "male transexual," nor is the BBC article a scholarly, peer reviewed journal. I know this seems to annoy you and I'm not happy about being a part of that. Meanwhile, I think the BBC article you've cited wholly supports changing the implementation of personal pronouns in the article. I would add that it at least supports the notion that such a change would not be considered vandalism and that the use of that term in revert headers is inappropriate. Gwen Gale 08:38, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

After having it explained to you a half-dozen times, I believe you now should know that press-identification is not the standard - self-identification is. The BBC citation (as well as many others) makes clear Brandon Teena's SELF-identification, and that's enough for WP. The pronouns THE PRESS employs are irrelevant. Your argument is specious, and yet you ignore the arguments of others. Honestly, Gwen, a reasonable person could at this point perceive your conduct as tendentious and your intention to be trolling. Please don't provide any more evidence to support that view. Last, have a great day.-- User:RyanFreisling @ 21:58, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

The Manual of Style that you cite states that it is a “nonbinding guideline”. According to a 2000 documentary on the subject, Teena’s mother, asked whether she was gay, transgender or what, the reply was, “I don’t know.” Following several arrests, she was booked and jailed as a female. After she was raped, she initially checked into the hospital as a man, but later asked that the admission form be corrected to indicate that she was a female. When she pressed rape charges against Nissen and Lotter, she identified herself as a woman to the sheriff’s office. It seems that around family and authority see claimed a female gender. Throughout the program, she was referred to in the feminine. This includes her mother, close friends, and biographer. This confuses the issue of her self-identity, but that does not really matter, as the Manual of Style is only a “nonbinding guideline”, not concrete Wikipedia policy.69.246.191.100 20:28, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I have gone through this article and removed all personal pronouns relating to the subject, so now can we please get on with creating a good article rather than bickering about whether the subject is he or she!? 88.107.250.248 14:40, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Rebecca's news cites

"...killed in a farmhouse, along with two witnesses, because he reported being raped by Lotter...", "Chicago woman to wed inmate portrayed in movie 'Boys Don't Cry'", AP, 19 March 2006

"...was raped before he was brutally murdered by his male friends..." "Prisoners of Gender", Hindustan Times, 12 November 2005

"When his secret was discovered, Teena was raped and murdered by former friends." "A poignant case of hidden gender", Daily Telegraph, 17 April 2004

"... raped and killed in Nebraska 10 years ago after two male acquaintances found out that although he lived as a man", "Three go on trial in transgender hate crime case", Houston Chronicle, 15 March 2004

"...raped and later murdered by two men after they discovered he wasn't born a man.", "Killing helped advance transgender rights", The Columbian, 1 January 2004

"...raped and later murdered by two men after they discovered he wasn't born a man." "Community remembers tragedy that inspired 'Boys Don't Cry' Killing spurred activism among transgendered", Charleston Gazette, 29 December 2003

"Prosecutors said he was killed in a farmhouse on New Year's Eve 1993", "Death row inmate loses appeal for DNA testing", AP, 27 September 2003

"...did not surgically transition to male but successfully passed for a long time preceding his death...", "Sex and Sensibility", The Washington Post, 10 November 2002

I think the onus is on you to find sources for your claims. Rebecca 09:18, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm not making any claims. You are making the claims. I've looked into the citations you provided and so far, have found the following:

• "...killed in a farmhouse, along with two witnesses, because he reported being raped by Lotter...", "Chicago woman to wed inmate portrayed in movie 'Boys Don't Cry'", AP, 19 March 2006

This Googles on three personal blogs but I can't find any confirmation it's a genuine AP quote. Gwen Gale 09:47, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

• "...was raped before he was brutally murdered by his male friends..." "Prisoners of Gender", Hindustan Times, 12 November 2005

This seems to appear on a single Indian website. Gwen Gale 09:47, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

• "When his secret was discovered, Teena was raped and murdered by former friends." "A poignant case of hidden gender", Daily Telegraph, 17 April 2004

This doesn't Google at all. Unverified. Gwen Gale 09:47, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

• "... raped and killed in Nebraska 10 years ago after two male acquaintances found out that although he lived as a man", "Three go on trial in transgender hate crime case", Houston Chronicle, 15 March 2004

This doesn't Google at all. Unverified. Gwen Gale 09:47, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

• "...raped and later murdered by two men after they discovered he wasn't born a man.", "Killing helped advance transgender rights", The Columbian, 1 January 2004

This Googles to a single blog. Unverified Gwen Gale 10:05, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

• "...raped and later murdered by two men after they discovered he wasn't born a man." "Community remembers tragedy that inspired 'Boys Don't Cry' Killing spurred activism among transgendered", Charleston Gazette, 29 December 2003

This Googles to a CNN article and some personal sites that copied it. Gwen Gale 09:47, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

• "Prosecutors said he was killed in a farmhouse on New Year's Eve 1993", "Death row inmate loses appeal for DNA testing", AP, 27 September 2003

This Googles to a single personal/advocacy blog but I can't find any confirmation it's a genuine AP quote. Gwen Gale 09:47, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

• "...did not surgically transition to male but successfully passed for a long time preceding his death...", "Sex and Sensibility", The Washington Post, 10 November 2002

This Googles to a single advocacy site but I can't find any confirmation that it's a genuine Washington Post quote. Gwen Gale 09:47, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Most of your citations don't verify to the cited source, but to personal blogs and advocacy sites (or not at all). So far your assertion that Brandon Teena was very widely referred to as "he" in the press at that time seems to be unsupported.

Moreover, you have not yet responded to my request for citations supporting your assertion that like Wikipedia, the vast majority of the reputable press has similar points in their manuals of style. Gwen Gale 09:47, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Nice try. No, they do not verify to personal blogs and advocacy sites. They verify to Factiva, the massive Dow Jones-run database of most newspaper articles from virtually all major newspapers in the last three decades. The vast majority of newspaper articles are, if they are put online at all, taken down by most newspapers, which should be strikingly obvious to anyone who has even attempted basic research online, which is why they are not in Google.

Should you choose to actually go to a library and check Factiva (should you not have access yourself), or, god forbid, check the newspapers themselves (since I have provided enough information for you to do so), feel free. In my search, I found virtually no references to Brandon Teena as "she" in the past five years (since the AP changed its manual of style, and the vast majority of others followed suit). I have provided the proof; it is now up to you to actually provide any evidence of your claims that any reputable source (let alone the majority of them) continues to refer to Brandon Teena as "she". Rebecca 10:43, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

• Most AP articles linger on at least a few scattered and sundry sites licensed to carry them for years on end. There should be more evidence of their existence on the open web.
• If you haven't seen Brandon referred to as a she, I can only offer the following quick and unscientific spot check:

First ten hits for "Brandon Teena" on Google (These can change depending on what server one gets)

Crime Library refers to BT as a she.

In this interview Teena's mother refers to BT as a she.

JusticeJunction refers to BT as a she.

The first review at imdb refers to BT as a she.

GLBTQ, an advocacy site, refers to BT as a he.

An editorial review at Amazon.com refers to BT as a he.

The UBL site has an empty scrapper template for BT with no content.

This personal advocacy page contains both he and she references to BT.

Gender.org, an advocacy site, uses skilled (and in my humble opinion very acceptable) writing techniques to avoid the use of personal pronouns for BT altogether.

Afterellen.com, an advocacy site, refers to BT as a he.

Meanwhile your sarcasm and personal attacks are not helpful. Please stop that. Please support your assertion that like Wikipedia, the vast majority of the reputable press has similar points in their manuals of style. So far, I think I've at least demonstrated that referring to Brandon Teena as a she is not vandalsim, nor the act of a troll. Moreover, User:RyanFreisling has shown that the BBC referred to BT as a she. Gwen Gale 10:51, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I've pointed out that there were very few references to Brandon Teena as "she" in the English-language press in the last five years (since the AP changed their MOS), or at least not out of the millions of articles archived on Factiva. I've given you a sample from a wide variety of different, highly-reputable news sources. You've given me one article. I also find it amusing that the same person who was three hours ago insisting on "scholarly citations" is now relying on an IMDB review and two personal websites to try and back up her argument. Rebecca 11:15, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I have a number of concerns here:

• You have not at all supported your assertion that there are very few references to BT as a she in the English-language press and your assertions that you have done are troubling.

• Moreover, the cites you provided to support the use of he mostly don't verify at all, except mostly to advocacy sites. This doesn't at all match previous experiences I've had in successfully tracking down wire and print articles on the web. Yeah, this may bear further work on my part.

• Your subjective use of the term "highly reputable" is fraught with opportunities for PoV, intimidation, misunderstanding and unsupported assertion.

• I haven't given you any articles at all. User:RyanFreisling provided the article in response to a request I made.

• I specifically characterized the Google spot check as unscientific and provided it to you only as a courtesy, to show you that BT is indeed referred to as a she in the mainstream. I'd never use a personal website to support any edit I might make to an article (and I don't think I ever have). Please don't conflate my good faith attempt to quickly show you some casual pronoun usage with my request that you provide scholarly, peer reviewed support for the use of male personal pronouns in the article.

• As an aside though, and an important one, I do assert that referring to the murder victim as a she is neither trollish, transphobic, nor vandalism, as demonstrated by the BBC article cited by User:RyanFreisling and the interview with BT's mother which appears on the commercial site in the Google list (yes, I'm finally "giving" you a single article, but only to support this, my only direct assertion so far).

• Please support your assertion that like Wikipedia, the vast majority of the reputable press has similar points in their manuals of style. Gwen Gale 11:30, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I have given you plenty of sources for Brandon Teena being referred to as "he" in a variety of highly reputable mainstream media, and I have given you enough information to verify this on your own, whether by Factiva itself or by checking newspaper archives. I have pointed out that I found very, very few sources that referred to him as "she", which you are welcome to also verify by Factiva. If your "successful experience in tracking down articles" involves whacking a few words into Google, I suggest you get some more experience. Nearly all of the "mainstream" sources you referred to referred to him as he; only an IMDB review and two personal websites referred otherwise. This is not verifiable evidence in the slightest. I've indulged you and provided sources to counter your claims; you have not provided the slightest evidence to back up your own. If you want anyone to take you seriously, you'll have to abide by our basic standards of verifiability. Rebecca 11:50, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I haven't referred to any mainstream sources but one! Are you carefully reading my posts or what? Anyway, here is a list of five raw URLs to either mainstream commercial media or educational sites (one additional personal page at an edu is included because it looks reliable) which refer to BT as a she:

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-47345400.html
http://net.unl.edu/swi/pers/tbrandon.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3219591.stm
http://www.jour.unr.edu/outpost/entertainment/ent.alian.boysdontcry.html
http://www.yaleherald.com/archive/xxix/2000.01.14/ae/p18dontcry.html
http://archive.salon.com/ent/col/srag/2000/03/09/peirce/index.html

It is clear that both pronoun usages occur in what you would call "highly reputable" MSM sources. What I'd like to see is scholarly support for the use of a male pronoun. Gwen Gale 12:02, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and I'd still like to see some support for your assertion that like Wikipedia, the vast majority of the reputable press has similar points in their manuals of style. Gwen Gale 12:12, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

The first link refers to an AP story before they changed their MOS in late 2001, so that isn't particularly relevant these days. The second has quotes from a lot of biased parties, with both used about equally. The third was quoted above. The fourth is a movie review from some random university student website, and hardly very reliable. The fifth is a movie review from a student newspaper. And the sixth is an opinion piece on a website. You are trying to claim that this article should use female pronouns, yet so far you've been able to come up with all of one instance of that usage in a reputable source. Until you actually provide some sort of reputable evidence to back up your claims (beyond citing random websites you found in Google), then I think we're wasting our time here. Rebecca 12:18, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

First, you're mistaken about those links. The first is a copy of an Associated Press article referring to BT as a she. The second is a personal page at an edu site which I threw in only because it seems well-written. The third is a BBC article referring to BT as a she. The fourth is a University of Nevada Outpost movie review. The fifth is a Yale Herald article and the sixth is Salon. "one instance of that usage in a reputable source"? Hardly. My only purpose in citing these particular examples is to support my assertion that referring to BT as a she is neither trollish, nor transphobic, nor vandalistic. By the bye her mother refers to her as a she, as referenced above. Please stop misrepresenting the content of my posts, thanks. Gwen Gale 14:29, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Anyway... "Claims"? Sorry, you're clearly not reading my posts (maybe skimming though, then glancing at the links but only to find stuff to criticize or whatever). Please support the article's use of male pronouns with scholarly citations. You have not done so. Gwen Gale 13:53, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

"Girls Don't Cry"

There's a question whether the Pet Shop Boys song is really inspired by the movie. The citation I managed to locate is here, in what seems to be a fansite of some sort. The site attributes the information to the PSB official site, which is flash-based and therefore not very searcheable or linkable. I googled part of the quote he provides, and I can't find another source for it. Quite a few people seem to believe the song is about BT, but a solid citation from the songwriters would be preferable. LeaHazel : talk : contribs 17:05, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Try this hard string search on Google, 75 hits with only the 3 specific text strings within the quotes, "Brandon Teena" "Pet Shop Boys" and "Girls Don't Cry" although some of those listed are but mirrors of this article. Gwen Gale 17:20, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Speaking of citations

I would like to respectfully point out that the article cites this BBC article as support that Brandon was transsexual. The article refers to her as "she" and as a "girl." I don't agree with the usage of pronouns in the Wikipedia article. However, as I've said previously I have no wish to edit war over it and will not, but only would like to remind that pronoun usage in no way defines trollish or vandalistic behaviour in the context of this article. Thanks for listening. Gwen Gale 11:01, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

In and of itself, no - but repeating your fallacious argument over and over again (is it a dozen times now?) on an article about a transgendered murder victim could easily be interpreted that way by some editors.

If you're wiling to leave the issue alone, then do so already. Stop repeating your tired and erroneous claim that the usage of pronouns in the press should determine WP pronoun usage rather than the WP policies regarding self-identification. Feel free to take your argument to the WP policy area governing pronoun usage. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 14:38, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Please review WP:No personal attacks and WP:Civil, thanks. Gwen Gale 15:07, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

My comments were neither uncivil nor a personal attack. Don't throw those around so flippantly. If you have valid complaints, you know where to raise them. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 15:10, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Editors who bring up this issue on this talk page are not trolls or vandals, which is all I have to say here. I suggest you think long and hard before carrying on with your personal attacks and uncivil behaviour towards my good faith, citation-supported comments on this talk page. Please drop it and I'll drop it. Thanks. Gwen Gale 15:17, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Please see my comment above. I trust you realize that ongoing, persistent attempts to ignore WP pronoun usage policy on a BIO page of a murdered transsexual (rather than dealing with the policy issue on the relevant page) is a bad idea. Such conduct only erodes any validity an editor's argument might have had. If you're not interested in disrupting WP, you should choose another forum to resolve the policy question.

Since you started the thread, I hope you'll not require the last word - as I'm happily dropping the issue here, with this response - if you want to make constructive improvements, you might want to stop using a BIO of a transsexual murder victim to debate WP pronoun usage for transsexuals. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 15:27, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I support WP policy, am sensitive to the article's content and have no wish to disrupt the article. Thanks for taking the time to reply. Gwen Gale 15:44, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I've decided to stop watching this article. I have too many worries of my own about arguing over murder-victim Teena Brandon's corpse (so to speak, anyway). This is a public wiki and since I edit here under WP policy I'm ok with the consensus of editors who disagree with me on the points I've raised. Thanks for listening and cheers to everyone :) Gwen Gale 14:44, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Help with References

Ok, so I tried cleaning up the referances a little bit because they were hard to accsess and understand... at least for me. Could someone work on them? I just made in worse >.< Eirra 18:24, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I reverted your repeated placement of the same link as overkill. As far as the changes to the content, my gut tells me that the prior version was superior, but I'll take a look when I can... --- User:RyanFreisling @ 18:27, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

K, thanks. Yeah, sorry. I basiccly found the infoprmation and put it in, but, yes I could have done a better job. Sorry. Anyways, the prior version was extremly short and undetialed. Eirra 17:57, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Tone

Indeed, with regards to content, caution should be exhibited. When content/context is added, we need to be careful to use encyclopedic language. The article is tending to read like a novelette. ZueJay (talk) 22:53, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, sorry. Basiclly, I got the information put in, but it definetly does need some revising. Eirra 17:57, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Carolyn Gage's essay 'Unmaking of a Lesbian'

Is simply not notable enough to be encyclopedic on an article about Brandon Teena, and I've reverted the inclusion of the link by anon. Sorry, but it's my opinion (pretty strong opinion after a bit of research) that Gage's essay (posted on an unverifiable web site, no less) simply does not meet the standards to be cited as a valid source on WP, in terms of notability, undue weight, verifiability, etc. for starters. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 23:09, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree entirley. After reading the article, I find it unreliable (there were several statments that contradicted with other information that most sources agree on) and it seemed to come from a VERY biased and untrustworthy view. It seems someone has added it back, however. I'd rather not get into an edit war, but I do agree on this issue. Eirra 16:00, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I read parts of the essay, and it seems to be promoting an agenda rather than providing information about Brandon Teena's life and death. I think its strongly POV nature advises against including it in Wikipedia, unless in the context of an opinion of one of the transgender-related articles. In that sense the website (rather than the specific essay) is rather important, because it delineated a not-often-exposed reaction of the transgender identity. LeaHazel : talk : contribs 14:45, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't agree that the website is important, in and of itself... it is unverifiable (there is no identification of the organization involved) and non-notable (it does not appear to be well-known at all). The anti-transgender views of some radical feminists is well-known (Janice Raymond's book, for example) but this website is an anonymous set of essays and as such doesn't meet the level of reputability to serve as a source for WP... and of course incorporating the POV of such radical feminist condemnation to the bio page of a murdered transsexual is highly questionable. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 15:23, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I see your point. Clearly, I need to do more research into the subject. LeaHazel : talk : contribs 08:52, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Dropping random names

The article drops random names as if we are supposed to know who they are. Editing for proper introductions to people requested.

-- unsigned at 10:23, 28 March 2007 by

Thanks for pointing this out - there's a low-key edit war over the cited material that introduces these names. An IP editor who claims to have been there, but has not yet provided contradictory sources of information, keeps blanking the bit that intro's those names. ZueJay (talk) 14:56, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Did Brandon Teena date Lisa Lambert?

An anon keeps reverting the section stating that Brandon Teena had dated Lisa Lambert prior to the murders, citing personal experience. Needless to say, that's not sufficient for WP. The anon then put a link in to what appears to be a Dutch site, without apparent attribution or verifiability that did not appear to back up the assertion. In a few minutes of searching I found this:

(December 03, 1996) Marvin Thomas Nissen, serving a life sentence for the 1993 shooting deaths of Brandon Teena, his girlfriend Lisa Lambert, and friend Phillip DeVine, will try to convince the State Supreme Court in Nebraska this week that he deserves a new trial due to errors made by police and the judge. [3]

On 31 December, Nissen and Lotter went to the home of Brandon's girlfriend Lisa Lambert and killed her, Brandon and a friend of theirs, Philip Devine. [4]

If there is indeed a source to substantiate they were not dating, please provide it. I frankly don't care about this issue either way, but we need to reflect the verifiable facts of this case in the article, not anonymous accounts. Thoughts? -- User:RyanFreisling @ 14:31, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I am the anon you talk of and I am at a loss of how to provide proof of what is in my head. My ex is the former Carrie Gross, Lisa Lamberts roommate at the time of the murders. This is substantiated in both a book "All She Wanted", thru numerous articles on line, and several TV shows including A&E American Justice "The Life and Death of Teena Brandon" plus the doc "The Brandon Teena Story". If anyone would know the actual facts it would be Lisa Lamberts former roommate. She has stated that Brandon and Lisa were never an item and never dated. I have yet to see any truly verifiable source that says they were actually dating. As for me, I have a site on Yahoo: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Brandon93/ It is a member only site to keep out porn bots, so just ask and I will be more than happy to open the door for you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12:04, 31 March 2007 (talk • contribs) 63.215.29.115 (UTC)

Unfortunately WP isn't a news agency, and since your representation is also not a first hand account, but only hearsay ('my ex knew the victim'), I can't see how WP can accept your account as fact without verifiable, notable corroboration. Right now, GLAAD and other sources represent Lisa Lambert as Brandon's 'girlfriend', making the clear representation that they were 'a couple' at the time of the murders. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 22:22, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I am trying to understand your point. How is it GLAAD has information that is correct, when I knew the victim on a personal basis and mine is hearsay? My ex not only knew all 3 victims, she was living in the same house as all 3. How is it GLAAD knows more than any of us who were there? I am trying to understand what makes them a verifiable source of information over someone they never knew, and not a spinner of tall tails to advance their own agenda.

Here's the short version - I think it's clear WP cannot recognize you as a valid source of information for the following reasons: 1. you are an anonymous user claiming to have knowledge that contradicts a notable source's account of a public event. You need to establish your identity and credentials as a witness and provide your account in some other forum (because WP is an encyclopedia, not a news agency) or point to a notable, verifiable source that has already published an account that corroborates your view. If you have any more questions about your validity as a source for the article, I recommend you raise the issue on one of the administrators' pages, like WP:AN/I. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 00:59, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

No. No more questions. I am done with wiki. Thanks for checking out my web site to verify who I am. Good day.

personal attack deleted. It's all heresay. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.229.136.49 (talk) 21:52, 12 April 2007 (UTC).

personal attack deleted—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.215.29.119 (talk) 20:33, 14 April 2007 (UTC).

I see this user is back and reverting to a version eliminating the mention of Lisa Lambert as Brandon's girlfriend at the time of his move to Falls City. Note that when Brandon was killed, he was killed in Lambert's bed. In light of the mention of this fact in the article and the three sources that establish that they were dating when Brandon moved in, I consider it more informative to include the 'girlfriend' information in the 'Living in Falls City' section. If there is evidence other than an anon claiming personal knowledge (as discussed earlier in this section), please cite it. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 23:08, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

In this part of Nebraska if you move in with a girlfriend and start dating her friends you won't wake up one morning. This entire sentence makes Lisa and Brandon sound like a couple of freaks. They were neither. And Brandon was found dead on top of her bed at the foot, not in her bed. Lisa was covered up, Brandon was not. As for calling this vandalism, it was not. There are more than a few people who disagree with this statement. You encourage people to make chages as long as they agree with your view? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.215.29.115 (talk • contribs).

My view (and the deleted content I reverted back) is well cited. Again, you can't make personal comments or claims to substantiate your edits. WP demands that we ALL provide citations to notable sources that validate our desired edits. If there is content in the article you object to that's this well cited, you can't claim it's in error based in personal information. Cite it.

Last, your comment "In this part of Nebraska if you move in with a girlfriend and start dating her friends you won't wake up one morning.", beyond being somewhat horrifying in itself, is ironic in that Brandon Teena was indeed murdered. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 23:25, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I am well aware the fate Teena Brandon suffered. We all are and is one of the reason's we came in here. And yet Lisa is not only lumped into being the girlfriend of someone she was only good friends with, she evidently didn't mind him messing around behind her back with her friends. This is all so wrong. She helped out someone in need and now she gets labeled as a cheap loser who's supposed boyfriend likes to cheat on her with her supposed friends. That just isn't right. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.215.29.115 (talk • contribs).

People fall in and out of relationships for all kinds of reasons. Of course no-one's being labeled as a 'cheap loser' by reflecting the fact that all accounts indicate they had a relationship. If that's not the case, there should be (verifiable, notable, independent) accounts of that. Your personal uncorroborated and unverifiable account just isn't acceptable evidence on WP. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 23:52, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps this should stand as a lesson for us all. Lisa opened her home and risk (and lost) her life to help a very troubled soul. And now she and her son get to pay for it. Clearing her name won't be possible, so perhaps this will serve as a lesson to the rest of us who would have tried to help someone like this in the past. Maybe this will actually save some other innocent life. Lesson learned. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.215.29.115 (talk • contribs).

Hope so. Thanks for your views on the matter and I'm sorry you feel that way. Now, will you please agree to stop making uncited edits and to provide valid citations to validate your future edits? Again, thanks. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 00:07, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

As I see it, you found one source stating that Lisa and Brandon dated. I don't see how that one source can block out others that do not support you view. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Faytay2002 (talk • contribs).

No, I found 3 sources.

(December 03, 1996) Marvin Thomas Nissen, serving a life sentence for the 1993 shooting deaths of Brandon Teena, his girlfriend Lisa Lambert, and friend Phillip DeVine, will try to convince the State Supreme Court in Nebraska this week that he deserves a new trial due to errors made by police and the judge. [5]

On 31 December, Nissen and Lotter went to the home of Brandon's girlfriend Lisa Lambert and killed her, Brandon and a friend of theirs, Philip Devine. [6]

And the third is the source cited in the article - the very same source you use below to make your point about whether Brandon was found in Lisa Lambert's bed, at the foot of the bed, or what have you:

"Brandon" came into Humboldt, about eighty miles south of Lincoln, and stayed with a girl named Lisa Lambert. Lisa fell in love with him, but he soon had his eye on someone else. That's what got him into more trouble than he'd bargained for. [7]

I have now worked to find 3 sources that validate this text and there are none that substantiate the objection. Please provide similar sources or stop reverting that text without valid cites. Without any presentation of proof, such repetitive reverts are disruptive. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 00:30, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Funny. I find it disruptive that you continue be so set on providing inaccurate information. Those sources you used sound exactly the same. Like they were taken word for word and used as a source for each other. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Faytay2002 (talk • contribs).

If you feel that GLAAD, Crimelibrary and an author on Google books are in collusion, I'm afraid that's way beyond the scope of this article. The citations are different in many ways that leads me to disagree.

Also you may note that the 'crimelibrary' site is not one to which you object to make a point in the section below, but on this point by your account alone we should consider them inaccurate (again, without valid evidence). On this too I disagree - your uncited views are not the basis for an encyclopedia article.

I asked if you'd stop making these uncited edits and you haven't answered, would you please answer for the sake of courtesy?

Last, again to be courteous please sign your edits with -- ~~~~. It really helps others to follow the discussion. Thanks. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 00:41, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I never said they were in collusion. Calling this an encyclopedia article is an insult to encyclopedias. Is it not well known that it was in fact Lana Tisdale who was Brandon's girlfriend? While Lisa may have had feelings for Brandon, and I don't know that she did, it does not in fact mean they were dating.

Again, I asked you a question and I would appreciate at least a 'no'. To be courteous please sign your edits with -- ~~~~. The sources available describe Lisa as 'Brandon's girlfriend', and that she was 'in love with him'. This is unrelated to his well-known relationship with Lana Tisdel. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 00:46, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I will not give you a 'no' since I am not done with this yet.

Lisa has often been linked, mistakenly, with Teena Brandon as a romantic partnership. Lisa's only true love was her son Tanner. "Brandon" was seeking refuge from her attackers and she gladly gave comfort and shelter to a bruised and battered human being. For this she gave her life.

www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page_gr&GRid=17993044

Hmm. To your comments all I can say is please familiarize yourself with WP:SOAPBOX, WP:POINT, WP:V, WP:NOTE, WP:RS and WP:STYLE. If you continue to simply repeat claims without evidence, to claim personal firsthand knowledge and to refuse to provide valid cites that verify your claims, you will eventually be seen as disruptive. And I'll ask you again to be courteous and please sign your edits with -- ~~~~. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 01:11, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I just gave you evidence. I did not say I have first hand knowledge. I do not. Earlier you stated you don't care either way if they dated or not. So why do you continue to change what I and others have been taking out? I think you have me confussed with another user. We are not the same person. Faytay2002 01:16, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

That's why I asked you multiple times to sign your posts. How does that 'evidence' prove your point at all? It's a gravestone finder. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 01:21, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

According to SOAPBOX propaganda and advocacy is not allowed. And yet many of the cites being listed here are from GLAAD or liked to them, which clearly has an agenda to advance their own cause (as do most groups). Isn't allowing such cites a violation of the spirit of your own rules in wiki?

They're not my rules, and no, it's not a violation to provide a citation from a notable source like GLAAD, especially when corroborated by other sources. If there are contradictory notable sources, then we can certainly include them as well - as I've said from the start. So far, not a single source has been provided by this rash of anons and single-role accounts to justify the repeated removal the content. Provide valid cites to justify your edits. And please sign your talk page posts. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 01:28, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Then please explain how such a source, that you know will not be unjaded, is notable?

Sorry? Are you saying that GLAAD (the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation) is not a notable source regarding information on a murdered transgendered person? If you feel they're biased, you need to demonstrate that bias with contradictory evidence, but that has no bearing on whether GLAAD is notable. They are. And again, if only to help differentiate your comments from the other accounts posting here (whether they are your accounts or not), please please sign your talk page posts with -- ~~~~. Thanks. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 01:35, 16 May 2007 (UTC). -- User:RyanFreisling @ 01:34, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Marvin Thomas Nissen, 22, also of Falls City, has been convicted of one count of first degree murder in the death of Brandon Teena and two counts of second degree murder in the deaths of Lisa Lambert, whom Brandon was living with at the time, and Phillip DeVine, a friend who http://drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu/~julie/text/teenrage.html

No mention of girlfriend. Just the person Brandon was living with at the time. And to your above comment, it is also debated whether Brandon was truly transgendered or not. Her greatest fear, according to acquaintances, was to be touched sexually by a man, and she was especially afraid of being raped. In fact, one male relative had exposed her to repeated sexual abuse, so her male appearance was as much a disguise as a guise. taken from www.crimelibrary.com

Faytay2002 01:46, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

'No mention' of something does not imply its non-existence - that would be illogical. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 01:48, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

How is it anything I give you you argue with? What is illogical is how set you are on fighting about this. I have to ask again, if you don't care as you stated before, why do you insist on putting it back in? Faytay2002 01:53, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

www.cnn.com/2003/us/central/12/28/brandon.death.transgender.ap/index.html

John Lotter and Marvin Nissen were convicted of murdering Teena, who had dated a female friend of the two men. They also killed Lisa Lambert, 24, and Philip DeVine, 22, who had witnessed Teena's death in a farmhouse. Faytay2002 02:01, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Just because a group is named Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation does not mean they do not posses an agenda. What makes this group scholarly and quotable? If a group has an agenda what makes anything they publish reliable, verifiable, or neutral as required by wiki guidlines? I think this is crossing the line and this entire project is tainted.

1. It's not that I argue anything you give me. I've argued with the gravestone link (because it doesn't demonstrate anything at all about Lisa Lambert) and I argue with the concept that 'no mention' of something proves it does not exist. Your CNN cite above similarly doesn't demonstrate that when Brandon moved to Falls City he moved in with his girlfriend, Lisa Lambert. Claiming 'proof by omission' is a logical fallacy on your part.

2. I believe the content establishing they had a relationship is well-cited, and therefore it should not be removed because a number of anonymous and single-role user accounts claim personal knowledge but cannot verify it in any way. That's not how WP works.

I've told you repeatedly what constitutes a valid source (WP:RS, WP:V, WP:NOTE, etc.), and to be useful for the purposes of your edit, the source needs to actually verify your claim that the media reports are in error and there was no relationship between the two. Unless you can cite your claim, there is no controversy over this issue aside from your continuing posts here.

3. Bias and notability are different. Take up your concerns about the notability guidelines on the respective pages - that's a separate issue and doesn't belong here.

The content doesn't require blanking simply because you believe it should be blanked. WP is based on verifiability - and you've not provided any verifiable proof. As I said a month and a half ago at the top of this thread:

"Unfortunately WP isn't a news agency, and since your representation is also not a first hand account, but only hearsay ('my ex knew the victim'), I can't see how WP can accept your account as fact without verifiable, notable corroboration. Right now, GLAAD and other sources represent Lisa Lambert as Brandon's 'girlfriend', making the clear representation that they were 'a couple' at the time of the murders."

Since then you've done nothing but revert the edit over and over, and have not provided a single source that disputes this well-cited account. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 02:05, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

So you are saying that they must have been dating just because they lived together for awhile? I'd say that is a fallacy on your part. And again, I am NOT the person who posted about my ex knowing the victim. I have found several sources for you now that mention Lisa as only the person he was living with, not a girlfriend. The fact that these sources have omitted this fact is because it is not true. If in fact he had been dating, doesn't it seem reasonable that the cnn article would have stated that? But they didn't. It was stated that he had been dating a friend of the killers. That was in the article because that is the truth. Faytay2002 02:15, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Also, using the very wiki sourses you refer to, the cites provided are invalid as well. It clearly states a source must be neutral. How can you justify otherwise?

No I'm saying the WP article says that she was his girlfriend at the time he moved in because 3 notable sources meeting WP:V and WP:NOR establish it. Your personal claims and your claim that your sources 'omitted this fact (?) because it is not true' are, to be kind, personal opinions - and edits on that basis alone (without valid cites) violate WP policy ([8]). Last, if you could provide a link saying a valid source for a citation has to be neutral, please do. What I found was this [9]. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 02:20, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Yet again, you are confussing me with another. I have no personal claims, as I did not know any of these victims. But I fail to see your point that these articles would leave out an important fact such as any kind of romantic relationship they may have had. If it had been true, it would have been stated. But it was not. It was stated he was dating another woman, but living with Lisa.Faytay2002 02:31, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

The article describes Lisa as his girlfriend when he moved in, not when he was dating Lana. And of course, your comment "If it had been true, it would have been stated." is completely illogical and false. Correctly cite it (without violating WP policy or basic logic), or drop it. Good night! -- User:RyanFreisling @ 02:39, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

By reinforcing the importance of including verifiable research produced by others….How does GLAAD fit into verifiable research?. “There is no firm definition of reliable, although most of us have a good intuition about the meaning of the word. In general, the most reliable sources are books and journals published by university presses; mainstream newspapers; and magazines and journals published by known publishing houses. Again, explain to me how anything from GLAAD fits this criteria.

Link to that text, please? Here's mine (with a link):

There is no firm definition of "reliable," although most of us have a good intuition about the meaning of the word. In general, the most reliable sources are books and journals published by university presses; mainstream newspapers; and magazines and journals published by known publishing houses. As a rule of thumb, the more people engaged in checking facts, analysing legal issues, and scrutinizing the writing, the more reliable the publication. Material that is self-published, whether on paper or online, is generally not regarded as reliable, but see Wikipedia:Verifiability for exceptions. [10] -- User:RyanFreisling @ 02:56, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

GLAAD is certainly notable, and the information cited to them is verifiable. Furthermore any concern about 'bias' regarding the content in question (beyond being somewhat silly to imagine GLAAD calling Lisa Brandon's girlfriend because of a pro-gay bias), is dealt with by additional corroboration by additional sources. In contrast, despite a wildly spinning argument in which you have cited sources and then claimed those same sources are inaccurate, you have provided no sources that contradict this content.

Cite it properly without violating logic or WP policy or drop it. Good night.-- User:RyanFreisling @ 03:01, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree with the other poster Ryan. I don't see how GLAAD can be called reliable when it is neither "books and journals published by university presses; mainstream newspapers; and magazines and journals published by known publishing houses". Seems CNN would be a more reliable source than anything from GLAAD.Faytay2002 03:02, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

You're welcome to follow whatever recourse you wish to pursue your idea that GLAAD is not a reliable source for the article, but it certainly won't fly. I suggest you read the policy pages carefully and if you'd like to go to WP:DR, feel free. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 03:05, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Using the above statement, how is it GLAAD is a book or journal published by a university press; mainstream newspaper; a magazine or journal published by a known publishing house? I can't see how they can be used as a source and still meet any of the criteria. That is like allowing the American National Socialist Party to write the story of Adolf Hitler. I am not trying to link them to NAZI's, it is just an easy example of how someone with an agenda towards its members will not provide as a source you can count upon. (Can NAZI's read or write, anyway? I never met one.)

• Sigh*! Nazis? I can only direct you to read the policies, and in general, you will find that single selected sentence is not the end-all the definition of a valid source for WP. Last, I hereby invoke Godwin's Law. Stop going around in circles (GLAAD's verifiability, tombstones, nazis, illogic, etc. - what's the next one?) and either open an RfC or other means of dispute resolution, or leave it be. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 03:09, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

• LOL!! You can always tell when someone's run out of arguments when they invoke Hitler and the Nazis. Geez. And yeah, (neo-)Nazis can read and write, at least the one I blocked indefinitely on here last week did :) - Alison ☺ 03:15, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Hello Alison. I am far from running out of arguments. There are dozens more to come, just using the links inside wiki that RF gave me to read. I can get some reading done on what is legal and allowed and I will be back within a few days. Thanks for all the help tonight. I think we shall be in for an interesting few days. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.215.29.115 (talk • contribs)

• Please tell me this is not a legal threat. However, we're here to write an encyclopedia, not do battle. I've no interest in this article other than being called in some time ago due to POV-warring. I'm still here. As the article is now semi-protected by another administrator, if you can provide reliable, relevant, cited sources for encyclopedic additions, I'll even help you add them yourself. Deal? - Alison ☺ 04:09, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Legal threats? Against wiki? That would be a huge waste of time and money. No, this is more of a challenge. To know the truth and fight for it. Even if someone else will eventually come along and change it back to something wrong again. I like a good challenge. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.215.29.115 (talk • contribs)

• I'm okay with that. If you can find valid references for your edits, I'll be delighted. Seriously. Anything that helps improve the project is welcome here. If you're here for disruption, you'll be blocked from editing pretty quickly. But if you can justify your edits and play by the rules, then go for it! - Alison ☺ 04:53, 16 May 2007 (UTC) (ps: can you sign your edits with "- ~~~~", please? Your comments are getting lost here)

Taken from All She Wanted by Aphrodite Jones

"When Reanna got back outside, Daphne had just pulled up with Carrie Gross, her buddy from Humbolt." p. 115 fyi- Reanna and Daphne were girlfriends of Brandon's while still in Lincoln. I am only posting this to bring up Carrie Gross, who was Lisa Lambert's roommate.

"When Brandon and Daphne arrived, they didn't even see Humbolt. It was one of the coldest autumns in Nebraska on record, so they saw nothing but bleak winter farmland. Carrie brought them directly to Lisa Lambert's farmhouse, a tiny gray one-story shack with three small bedrooms just two miles south of town.
Lisa rented the place for $125 a month, so she could afford to be gracious, and let friends stay there for little or no charge. Carrie Gross and her boyfriend Mike Lang were already living there off and on, so hosting Carrie's friends wasn't a big deal." p. 118

Here is the proof you have been asking for that shows Brandon did not move in with his "girlfriend" Lisa Lambert. Faytay2002 15:10, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Needless to say, that account doesn't contradict the other accounts. It doesn't speak to whether there was a relationship or not. I'll take a look at the book in more depth and see what it does say.

As an example, a citation that says "contrary to news reports, Brandon and Lisa were never in a relationship" or the like would at least establish a controversy around this issue. Right now, it strikes me as WP:OR to draw the conclusion you've sought to draw from that example.. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 15:13, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, Jones book, which is published by a note worthy author and by a well known publishing house, meeting all of wiki's criteria, is the only true source meeting the strict rule of wikipedia for verifiability and NPOV. Her book is in direct conflict of much of this article, and many of the other sources being used to back up claims within this article. The name Brandon Teena in relation to Brandon in this book. The author, who used both family and friends, uses the name Brandon or Teena to refer to this person. Also, how is note 6 a valid not? It uses IMDB. IS this any more acceptable than the FIND A GRAVE that was shown earlier. Both of these are web site, not verifiable and certainly not legal by wiki standards. Either allow both to be cited or remove IMDB and note 6 as a cite.

I have no problem with Jones' book. I had a problem with your citation from that book being used to try to prove something it clearly does not. And if you feel Jones' book is indeed a valid source (I'd agree), here's what it does say about his relationship with Lisa (at least, a citation attributed that I need to verify at the library):

"Both of Brandon's Humboldt girlfriends, Lisa Lambert and Lana Tisdel, were being harassed at their workplaces and at social events. One of Lisa's friends described Lisa's dilemma: "Everyone in Humboldt knew about Brandon. Lisa didn't try to hide it. Lisa couldn't believe something like this happened to her. She made it clear that she was too caring to shut Brandon out. She was mad and hurt about it, but she didn't want to hurt him [sic], didn't want to turn him [sic] out on the streets." (Jones, 205)

So Jones says that Brandon dated two women in Humboldt - Lisa and Lana. Thanks, and I hope we can now put this issue to rest. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 02:28, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Sure, now you have agreed we can start using Jones book to remove some of these other cites. For instance, number 6 that you ignored me post on. It is invalid by using your own criteria. It is a web site and not a true wiki notable source. Thanks Ryan, I think we can do bussiness together now.

No, the criteria are not mine, they are WP policy. I really recommend you read the links in the page's top banner and honestly try to understand the WP approach to using sources in order to present the verifiable points of view on issues (there can be multiple points of view, where cited). Well-known and reputable websites like IMDB, non self-published books, media reports, etc. can often be considered reliable when used to represent a verifiable point-of-view. And Jones' book, where it contradicts other citations, is as good as any source to illustrate such a controversy or difference in the reported events. Please read WP:V.-- User:RyanFreisling @ 03:01, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

That is fine. I notice you have added a cite for FindAGrave for Teena Brandon. Please add this one as well for Lisa Lambert http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=17993044. If Find a Grave is a valid source then let us use it all of it as such.

I didn't add the cite. But the cite is there because it is relevant to a verified controversy (the name Brandon and his family used to refer to him). I think you'd agree there's no such controversy regarding Lisa's name (or other questions the gravesite data could shed light on), and therefore we don't need a gravesite link for her on Brandon Teena's page. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 06:08, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

If one cite on Find A Grave is allowed, then all must be allowed. You can't use one page and not another on the same web site. Either allow Lisa Lamberts page or exclude the Brandon page. Speaking of names, I am still looking thru Jones book and at no point is the term Brandon Teena used. Not from the mother, any family member, none of the frineds, or even from Brandon himself. This appears to be a term rather than a name.

Needless to say, you appear to fundamentally misunderstand the use of citations. Your statement 'If one cite on find a grave' is allowed, all are allowed' ignores the important issue of whether other cites are necessary. Since there's no information to be added by a gravesite reference to a person other than Brandon to this article, I personally don't see a reason for it (you're welcome to make the edit and see how the community responds).

As far as the name 'Brandon Teena' is concerned, that issue (a controversy over whether he used the full name 'brandon teena' in life) is represented in the article. There is evidence that supports both viewpoints, so the issue is accurately described as such in the article. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 13:22, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

A 216 anon has introduced a number of uncited edits, including the removal of the attribution of 'girlfriend' to Lisa Lambert. Expressing a number of individual POV's and without citation, these edits have been reverted. If you want to cite your edits, you're welcome to re-introduce any and all of them. Since the article has been disrupted on an ongoing basis, and most recently required semi-protection, edits of a controversial nature to this article are best accompanied with the required citations. Thanks. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 21:11, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

The 63. anon (very likely the same editor as the single-role accounts here and the 216. anon) has again deleted the word 'girlfriend' - and as before, has done so without citation/verification and in defiance of numerous citations that state that they were dating.

Anon, claiming a fact is substantiated by an ex-girlfriend isn't an acceptable basis for Wikipedia edits. Repeated deletions of cited content - without even making an effort to provide notable, verifiable sourcing or rationale for the deletion - is plainly disruptive conduct. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 21:41, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

All I could find in the cite was this reference: ""Brandon" came into Humboldt, about eighty miles south of Lincoln, and stayed with a girl named Lisa Lambert. Lisa fell in love with him, but he soon had his eye on someone else. That's what got him into more trouble than he'd bargained for." Can someone show me where it says Lisa was a girlfriend?

And back to the beginning we go. For the third time, here are the sources (including the source cited directly in the article)ake a peek at the very first entry in this section for two, and then three links that state exactly that:

(December 03, 1996) Marvin Thomas Nissen, serving a life sentence for the 1993 shooting deaths of Brandon Teena, his girlfriend Lisa Lambert, and friend Phillip DeVine, will try to convince the State Supreme Court in Nebraska this week that he deserves a new trial due to errors made by police and the judge. [11]

On 31 December, Nissen and Lotter went to the home of Brandon's girlfriend Lisa Lambert and killed her, Brandon and a friend of theirs, Philip Devine. [12]

"Brandon" came into Humboldt, about eighty miles south of Lincoln, and stayed with a girl named Lisa Lambert. Lisa fell in love with him, but he soon had his eye on someone else. That's what got him into more trouble than he'd bargained for. [13]

-- User:RyanFreisling @ 00:42, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

If you don't agree with certain people here you get your comments deleted. Good old fashioned censorship hard at work.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 162.58.0.232 (talk • contribs) July 26, 2007.

Anonymous editor, please stop reinserting the unsupported statement that Brandon Teena was a "chronic liar". Please refer to WP:V. If you have sources supporting this statement, please submit them in support. Otherwise, be aware that further such edits will be treated as any other form of vandalism. Deleting vandalous edits does not remotely qualify as an act of "censorship". Good day, Kasreyn 21:21, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

"From that point on, it was virtually impossible to get Teena to talk to her psychiatrists. She preferred not to dredge up any more unhappy or complicated feelings, and no resolution was made about her identity or future. "They called her a compulsive liar," JoAnn recalled. "She stopped attending the sessions after two weeks. They said she didn't need any long-term care and let her go."

Death of a Deceiver by Eric Konigsberg Playboy magazine, January 1995 http://brand0nteena.tripod.com/articlesb/playboy.html —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.215.29.115 (talk) 22:02, August 21, 2007 (UTC)

That supports the notion that somebody called Brandon a compulsive liar — it's not sufficient sourcing to state that he was one, or that it's somehow connected to her family having trouble accepting his transgender status. Especially since in that very quote, Brandon's mother isn't saying she thought Brandon was a liar — she's saying that Brandon got labelled as one by the health care system, and quite visibly doesn't say that she agreed with the assessment. Bearcat 22:06, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Brandon was diagnosed as a compulsive liar. If the word of her mother and Lincoln General Hospital psychiatrists are not good enough then what is? There are several more references and an entire book that labels her as someone who twisted the truth as the need arose. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.215.29.115 (talk) 22:14, August 21, 2007 (UTC)

I repeat: Brandon's mother is not saying that she agrees that Brandon was a compulsive liar; she's stating that getting labelled as one led Brandon to refuse to see his psychiatrists any further. You haven't shown any source which states that JoAnn Brandon agreed with the assessment or that her agreement with the assessment was in any way connected to her difficulty in accepting or supporting Brandon's gender identity issues. Mental health issues are highly subjective; two different psychiatrists can quite easily and regularly come up with completely different diagnoses and treatment modalities for the same person. You need to show the concurring opinions of multiple psychiatrists — and even then, the appropriate statement would be that Brandon was diagnosed as a compulsive liar by Dr. Smith and Dr. Jones at Lincoln General Hospital, not simply that he was a compulsive liar or that the diagnosis was directly connected to any aspect of Brandon's life for which a connection isn't explicity drawn by the source itself. Bearcat 22:23, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Find-a-Grave reliability

This site does not appear to meet Wikipedia standards for reliability, except for the sort of content that is currently cited--the photograph of an actual gravestone. I imagine the anonymous proponent of adding a reference to Lisa Lambert's page wants to quote or reference the line "Lisa has often been linked, mistakenly, with Teena Brandon as a romantic partnership." However, it is easy to see that all of the written content on the site is added in amateur "self-published" fashion with no fact-checking facilities and virtually no editorial oversight. See Wikipedia:Verifiability#Sources for our policy. See Find-a-Grave FAQ "Where do you get your information?" and related exchanges on the site's FAQ page to see why the written submissions on the site do not qualify under our standards. As the provider of the information on Lisa Lambert's page is identified only as "Rocky," the page is not even suitable as evidence of the opinion of a particular person (who may or not be significant to the case).—DCGeist 17:16, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Seconded - I would agree that the verifiability of 'find-a-grave' is in question, especially when you consider that 'Rocky' is also the self-assigned name of the 63. anon posting here (e.g this thread). -- User:RyanFreisling @ 18:08, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Owch! Thirded, so - Alison ☺ 18:36, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Finally ever can agree that a less than reliable source should be removed. Now we can discuss the other ones that are also not reliable. So far, as I see it, the only reliable and verifiable source here is Jones book. Also, let us discuss how Brandon is identified within Jones book.

To gay, lesbian and transexual people, it was more than just a hate crime, it was more than just a problem with police: "Brandon Teena" was fast becoming an icon........ Now, all of a sudden, "Brandon Teena" was putting transgenders on the map. Of course, it was of no concern to them that there was no such name as Brandon Teena. pp.246-247

Also, since it was mentioned, a GRAVESTONE is something to cite as well. I can make about 500 pictures of this gravestone for you. And it happens to agree with Jones book.

The article already says that there are reports that Brandon never used the full name 'Brandon Teena'. Numerous reports contradict that account (as cited ad nauseam), so the issue is addressed in the article. As far as your representation of Jones' book as the 'only verifiable and reliable source', those kind of comments combined with the ever-shifting, belligerent and repetitive nature of your arguments lead me to believe even more that you are not here for any constructive purpose. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 03:35, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Show me one place I have been belligerent. I have yet to see a single source document that meets the burden of proof. You said Carolyn Gage's article simply does not meet the standards to be cited as a valid source on WP, in terms of notability, undue weight, and verifiability. I am trying to point out, neither do most of the other cites in here. IMDB? Find A Grave? The GLBTQ dictionary? How are they any more scolarly than Gage? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.215.29.119 (talk • contribs)

• You're not helping matters by not signing your comments - I'll tell you that much. It's seriously hard to follow and, looking at the conversation above, I've missed out on lots of your points. - Alison ☺ 05:19, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

You should stand behind your comments, you know the kinds of edits you've made and I'm not wasting a single keystroke reporting to you how you've been behaving any more. You fundamentally misunderstand 'the burden of proof', and as you are presented with the cold facts, you continue to evade and redirect the discussion into new areas.

Ah you see - now we're talking about Carolyn Gage? Now we're NOT advocating for the gravesite data web site? Now we're NOT insisting there was no relationship? Or we ARE insisting there was no relationship WHILE we insist that a source contradicting that is the only valid source? I'm sorry, your disruptive and unfocused conduct is obvious. It's called trolling. And since I don't feed trolls, I'm going into 'ignore' mode unless you post something of real value to respond to. And re: Gage: Read my comments [14] and you'll see why I viewed that essay as non-notable and not representative of a viewpoint that has 'due weight' for a bio - to say nothing of a bio of a murder victim. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 05:27, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Seems more an effort to me to show that not all the cites are good ones. It should be noted that all this information is being gathered after the fact and has changed hands many times. More often than not when this happens, facts are lost and misunderstood. In fact, isn't #4 simply a commentary? I may be wrong as I may have misread. But seems that would not be a valide source either under wiki policy.Faytay2002 01:30, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Controversy over whether Brandon was found in Lisa's Bed

As for Brandon being found "in" Lisa's bed...

Brandon lay on her back on the lower part of the bed, her legs dangling over the edge and her hands bloody. She was fully clothed, but her sweatshirt showed a large area of blood that had soaked through from her abdomen. Her white socks were pink from watered-down blood soaked up from the floor. Lifting her sweatshirt, officers saw a jagged wound, apparently made by a knife. Further up, a small bullet hole was evident under her chin, surrounded by gunpowder residue. That meant she'd been shot at close range. A fracture on her skull indicated that she'd been hit with a blunt object. Of the three bodies, hers was the most ravaged, so it was possible that she had been the primary target.

Lisa Lambert, 24, was partly under the covers, but there was a bullet wound to her right eye. Blood also ran out of her mouth and another wound was found in her stomach. It appeared that's she'd been sitting up in bed when shot.

Taken from www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/not_guilty/brandon/1.html —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Faytay2002 (talk • contribs).

very confusing

i just started reading this article with no previous knowledge of this person and i found the article to be INCREDIBLY confusing.

i read the general info at the top of the page and then i went down to The Rape and it was really confusing. it uses the peoples' last names only with no indication of what their gender is [genders are?] as though i already know about these people. if i don't want to know about Brandon Teena and only want to read about the crime then i'm going to read the section called The Rape and not bother to read other sections to know about the people who raped her/him (another confusing part was Brandon/Teena's gender, i didn't figure that out until i read the discussion page)

so please make it more understandable for everyone. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.151.29.175 (talk) 00:56, 9 April 2007 (UTC).

I am as confused. Why is the term "Brandon Teena" used when this person never went by that name? Isn't that being disrespectful of the dead to call them something they never called themselves? Is this being done out of respect for this individual or to assist in an adjenda for a group using this person? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.58.0.232 (talk • contribs)

The citations make clear that he used the name Brandon to refer to himself, and on WP, the style guide dictates that we use 'self-identification' for transgendered individuals. There's no agenda. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 17:15, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

You said it yourself "he used the name Brandon to refer to himself". He went by Brandon, not Brandon Teena. Why is this article labeling him as Brandon Teena then? You are adopting a name placed on this person post life and not keeping with actual facts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.58.0.232 (talk • contribs)

The citations clearly state that he used the name 'Brandon Teena', not just 'Brandon'. Just one offhand example: In his late teens, Teena began passing as a male and changed his name to Brandon Teena [15]. Your objection appears unfounded. Can you provide a citation (in other words, 'actual facts') to contradict these that says he didn't go by 'Brandon Teena', but only 'Brandon'? -- User:RyanFreisling @ 19:48, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Your citation is not a true reference source. Please show me one single citation that states anyone having actually known Brandon and him actually using the name "Brandon Teena". If there is a single verifiable source than I will concede the point. If not, then this page is being based on nothing more than hearsay and not facts. In the book "All she wanted" authored by A. Jones, the first work done about Brandon, not a single refrence is given to the term Brandon Teena. Not by family or friends.

'Not a true reference source'? The sources meet WP criteria in that they are notable, verifiable, not original research, etc. Any other requirements you might place above that are pretty irrelevant to the issue of proper WP sourcing. Actually having known Brandon is not required of a source. Please see WP:RS. Thanks! -- User:RyanFreisling @ 22:39, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

As a kindness, here's another source meeting WP:RS:

Brandon Teena was born a girl. Later Teena decided to change sexual identification, and began to pass as a young man by the name of Brandon Teena." JRank

I would suggest your claim that Brandon Teena didn't use the name 'Brandon Teena' needs to be cited, since it conflicts with numerous notable sources. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 22:44, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

• Well, a cursory glance gives this, then there's this non-sympathetic article which states that Brandon used the name "Brandon Teena". It's also mentioned in the Amazon editorial review. As with these things, it's very hard to find some sort of primary, "official" source for something which was ostensibly a pseudonym. I think we can all agree, however, that the full name, "Brandon Teena" was in reasonably common usage by a number of people at the time and it was largely through the rape charge filed that Brandon was 'outed' - Alison^☺ 22:45, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Using that same logic, my niece wrote a paper years ago for Sunday School. Did you know the first elephant on Noah’s arc was named Ralph? By your standards this must be the truth since it was published in the church's bulletin. As I said once before, show me one instance where Brandon referred to himself as Brandon Teena. You can't, because he didn't. If he had his mother Joann would have mentioned it to Jones along with the long list of Alias names he did use. (Tena Ray, Billy Brenson, and Brandon) As for common usage, by whom? After he was dead perhaps. Now, as for the rape charge, look at the court documents on that. At the interview with Laux the official county record has a signature from Brandon. Anyone care to guess how it was signed?Are you going to dispute the very person we are talking about as to what name was being used? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.215.29.115 (talk • contribs).

• I don't think it's fair to make a comparison between your niece's Sunday School paper and IMDB/Amazon/various newspapers/etc. As already pointed out, as a pseudonym, it's highly unlikely that there's a written example of his own usage, and requesting same is unfair. The court documents, of course, were signed, "Teena Brandon", which was his legal name. I don't see the point you're trying to make there - Alison^☺ 00:43, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

The point I am trying to make is that these so called credible sources are not so credible. They are published on the web, but so are many other things that are not correct. My niece felt she was a credible source because she had heard her story in Sunday school. We all know what that story was worth, but to an 8 year old it was as good as gold. I am not trying to create hard feelings, but rather point out that something here is terrible wrong. Bad information is being distributed and touted as credible. And yet I have seen nothing that makes any of it truly credible. Thanks again for your time and patience. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.215.29.115 (talk • contribs)

• I think the problem here is we have differing definitions on what constitutes "truly credible". I'm not entirely sure how "bad information" is being distributed, other than the possibility of major sources assuming the good faith of others. I think the weight of evidence that we have access to leans towards "Brandon Teena", given that the sources are reasonably credible and that it was not a legal name but a pseudonym which are, by their nature, somewhat hazy and undefinable. What would constitute "truly credible" in your book? - Alison^☺ 00:57, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

How can good faith be used as truly credible? Honestly, where do you draw the line? I can assure you those articles were written by people who knew less about Brandon than they did the man in the moon. I have seen this "Brandon Teena" name grow over the past 11 years. I know where it came from and it wasn't from Brandon. But then again, I too am not a credible source either. So what we do know for sure is Brandon did go by Brandon. On the hospital admit form in Falls City the name Tena Ray was originally written in and then changed to Teena. There are numerous court doc's with the names Billy Brenson and Tena Ray. But still no "Brandon Teena". So why is it being used as gospel here? You used IMDB as a source earlier, and yet the very documentary covered by IMDB is not allowed to be sited here. On A&E "American Justice" they say the name "Brandon Teena" was never known to have been used by Brandon. This is the same show with his mother and numerous friends and authors providing the very information being used. But I guess they too are not credible. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.215.29.115 (talk • contribs).

Here: in addition to your 'American Justice' reference I found what appears to be another cite that claims the name was applied posthumously (Jared Hohlt of Slate):

"In the film--as in life--Brandon (who never used the last name Teena; he was called "Brandon Teena" only posthumously) had already been wooing young women as a man in his hometown of Lincoln before arriving in Falls City (population 5,000) in late 1993." [16]

So on the basis of these cites I wouldn't object to including something about this contradictory set of claims in the article. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 02:20, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.215.29.115 (talk • contribs).

• Ok - I certainly agree that there's confusion over the name, esp. given that it was never his official 'legal' name. However, it's the one he's most known by and there's enough reputable publications out there that have used it. I agree that this should be noted in the article. I'm going to be bold and add a footnote to that effect, linked from the first mention of his name. Let me know what you think - Alison^☺ 03:38, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
• Ok - done. How does that read? - Alison^☺ 03:46, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Very nice, thank you again. I hope I have not created any hard feelings here.

Not at all, and likewise I hope I have not done the same. I am glad we could find reliable sources to back up your personal knowledge of this issue. Be well! -- User:RyanFreisling @ 04:36, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Someone continues to remove the note we all agreed upon. I have reverted it several time to get it back. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.215.29.115 (talk • contribs)

• Indeed. Note that both of you need to watch for WP:3RR - Alison ☺ 06:29, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Uncited edits and anonymous editors

This article seems to have attracted a number of anon editors, some claiming personal knowledge of the article's subject, many of whom have little if any prior involvement with WP. One recent editor has has significantly added and modified content without explanation or factual citation, and that's a problem. Edits by single-issue or 'role' accounts are held to the same standards as everyone else, and personal knowledge is not valid encyclopedic sourcing - so PLEASE cite your edits with sources meeting WP:RS if you would prefer them not be reverted outright as unsupported claims. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 18:38, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I checked some research and have reverted a few pieces I couldn't corroborate with the known facts of the case. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 02:23, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

This whole article is a mess. It is poorly written and not very accurate. This is a subject I have been researching for a long time and am confident in saying that I know a lot about. I did site my source, and yet you replaced my well written statement with the mess that was there before. I have to wonder why I should spend the time in trying to correct it if you're just going to erase what I add. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Faytay2002 (talk • contribs)

• Hi there. Are you the same editor as 63.215.29.115 (talk · contribs) above? - Alison^☺ 03:04, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi Alison- No I am not.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Faytay2002 (talk • contribs)

• Ah, okay. Just wondering 'coz you both say 'site' when you mean cite ... :) - Alison^☺ 03:23, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry about that.

While we are talking about changes, might I ask where the information (cite) was found for the murders? It describes things that could not be. For instance, they asked Lisa where Brandon was and then found him hiding under the bed. Lisa had a water bed that rested on the floor. There was no place under that bed to hide unless you were perhaps a greased B-B. This is personal knowledge and the murder scene photos and report will verify this as well. This report talks about the water bed being punctured by a bullet and the carpet being soaked with water and blood. What is written is inaccurate. For proper cite (thanks Alison) you may look up the closing arguments of the prosecution made during the murder trials. They talk at length about the water bed.User:Rocky

or this:

There was a slight body under the bottom of the waterbed blankets, and as quickly as Brandon was found, Brandon was killed. 

http://www.justicejunction.com/judicial_injustice_brandon_teena.htm

There is something wrong with wikipedia style guidelines

When we take a person who is (almost certainly) genetically female, with female external genitalia and call that person "he", it is simply confusing and wrong. That someone self describes as something does not make it valid or appropriate for an encyclopedia. There is a fellow in Memphis who has some fame and he declares he is an alien from another planet. But his declaration of that, would not make it reasonable for wikipedia to recognize that silly claim. This article highlights a problem with wikipedia policy. I could see it if there were an intersex problem. I could even see it with a person who had external genitalia that had the appearance of the claimed sex. But when neither of these is the case, this is just silly.--Blue Tie 06:26, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

It's not silly at all, and it's not just Wikipedia -- it's standard usage when referring to transgendered people. See the AP Style Guide among other sources. Susan Davis 07:08, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

It is silly in the context of describing his or her childhood before such a choice was made. I understand how the policy can be used to avoid being offensive to people like this particularly in the press, but in terms of a full life biography, something is not right here. It makes the article less clear and more confusing. --Blue Tie 08:21, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I think whatever 'confusion' the 'childhood' section is causing you can be addressed with editing, rather than challenging the clear guidelines of WP:STYLE by demanding the 'genital test' and/or equating transgendered individuals with aliens (each are highly offensive suggestions, by the way). When I re-read the first paragraph of the 'childhood' section to look for 'confusing' information, I couldn't find anything nearly meeting your 'unreasonable' or 'silly' attribution. It currently reads:

Brandon Teena was native to Lincoln, Nebraska. Born in 1972, Brandon has been described as a ‘tomboy’ as a child. He was sexually assaulted by a male relative when he was young and, according to his mother, JoAnn Brandon, she and Brandon sought counseling in 1991.

Are you really claiming that that single sentence 'highlights a problem with Wikipedia policy'? If so, I patently and vehemently disagree. Escalating this to a 'matter of policy' is at seems to me more than a mite excessive. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 13:41, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Do you 'think' you're 'using' enough 'scare quotes'?

I stand by my comments on this earlier: Blue Tie's objection is perfectly reasonable and completely misplaced. There's no question of whether we should follow Wikipedia style guidelines on a Wikipedia page. The question is whether the guideline itself is correct, and that's a discussion worth having, but this isn't the place. The place is -- oh, Blue Tie has already posted there. Okay then. ~ CZeke 14:37, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Let's try to stay 'on topic', shall we? See you over there. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 14:38, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Note: I have raised my concern on the Manual of Style Talk page. --Blue Tie 05:53, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

The childhood issue is simply dismissed. Check out Vladimir Lenin. He wasn't "Lenin" as a child. We describe his father as "Lenin's father". Oh noes! Logical inconsistency has struck. His father died before he became Lenin, so couldn't ever have been "Lenin's father". Etc. Grace Note 00:47, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Name etc

We do not need a note about the name on this page, any more than we do on any other page. We also do not need to point out that "transsexual" (not transgendered, please see previous discussion and do not change this back) means that he was born "anatomically female". Those readers who do not know what "transsexual" means can follow the link and it will become clear to them. Grace Note 00:41, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. The term "Brandon Teena" was something that appeared after Brandon was dead. He never used that as a name and it was invented at a later time.User:Rocky

According to note 2, it is perfectly correct to refer to Brandon as Teena. They use this as reference numerious times. Matzner, Andrew. Teena, Brandon (1972-1993). GLBTQ Encyclopedia. Accessed 14 March 2007. Please note this is an accepted source and shows that the term Brandon Teena is not the only accepted name used. "Teena's life and death eventually became the subject of two critically acclaimed films" "By 1993 Teena had been involved in a string of relationships with women who were unaware of his birth sex." "Soon after arriving in Falls City, Teena, still living as a man, began dating Lana Tisdel. Following habit, he once again financed his generosity by forging checks. In the middle of December, local police arrested Teena," This seems to make the "Brandon Teena" tag as something that should be changed. If the GLBTQ is refering to him as she then why are we doing different? Is it so hard to understand that Brandon was both and went from she to he and back to she? User:Rocky

It's not hard to understand but it makes for a shit encyclopaedia article. So does antitransexual POV pushing. Grace Note 05:14, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Anon, please provide a link to verify the pronoun usage you claim GLBTQ is using, so it can be verified. Note also that the usage other sources employ does not determine WP usage - we use self-identification. However, your example uses the male pronoun so I don't think it's much of an issue. Also, check again. I think you'll find 'Brandon, Teena' and the use of 'Teena' in your example refers to Teena as a last name and supports the name Brandon Teena (the comma is important). Also - please cite the 'went from she to he and back to she' thing you said, because that's not my understanding of Brandon Teena's life experience before he was murdered. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 05:22, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

"antitransexual POV pushing", Another way to get around the fact a fictional name was given to a real person, and some of us won't accept it. User:Rocky

I am not clear on the issue, but I think the solution is not so hard. It is appropriate that someone making a positive claim should validate it. Someone (I do not know who) is saying that a name being applied here did not actually exist. This is a negative claim and cannot be proven. But it serves as the basis for a request for verifiability. Can the use of the questioned name during the subject's lifetime be verified? If not, then a verified name should be used. --Blue Tie 11:08, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

As cited above: (Jared Hohlt of Slate)"In the film--as in life--Brandon (who never used the last name Teena; he was called "Brandon Teena" only posthumously) had already been wooing young women as a man in his hometown of Lincoln before arriving in Falls City (population 5,000) in late 1993." Also a documentary from A&E states the same, that the name Brandon Teena was never used by Teena Brandon. Wikipedia states this fact with "born Teena Renae Brandon in Lincoln, Nebraska, and known simply as Brandon"

Yes, as the editor that researched the issue and found and provided the cite for the Hohlt piece in Salon, I would agree that there's a 'controversy' over whether Brandon used the last name Teena or not. Two sources say this, and many other sources contradict this. I'd call it a valid controversy, but far from 'proof' that he didn't use 'Teena' as a last name. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 14:59, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I totally agree. Has anyone found any cite from family members who have qualified what name was actually used? The proof this name needs is from a true source and not just randon articles based on guess work and internet hearsay. Any ideas? User:Rocky

We cannot have a note that weasels on the issue. If we want to note that Jarrod Hohlt wrote in Salon that he was never called "Brandon Teena" during his life, then fine, note that. But I am definitely inclined to think this is a Gdansk/Danzig thing (what something or somebody used to be called is much less pertinent than what they are commonly known as now). I also don't think there's any great "controversy". The documentary that the film was based on was called "The Brandon Teena Story", he is referred to as Brandon Teena in the GLBT encyclopaedia, and quite widely under that name. We note his birthname and that he was commonly known only as Brandon, so I don't feel we are giving an inaccurate presentation of the facts. Grace Note 06:19, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

It seems a bit weird to call him by a name he never called himself, but I suspect the Movie had an influence on that. I am not sure how to judge whether one form or the other is more popular without original research. So, I think a cite would be good. --Blue Tie 07:08, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Isn't that three changes for you on one subject line, Grace Notes?

proposed change to: Childhood

The article says Brandon was the victim of sexual assult when a child, but wouldn't molestation be a better word for what happened? (Rocky) —The preceding User:Rocky comment was added by 63.215.29.115 (talk) 00:37, 30 April 2007 (UTC).

This might help clear up your confusion. Grace Note 06:20, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

If sexual assault is a large group of behaviors as your definition shows, and this behavior was one of those (Child sexual abuse) but not all of them, then it would be better to make it more specific, if possible. --Blue Tie 07:03, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

It may be better to call it sexual abuse, not assualt. Assualt makes it seem like it was a single incedent. But in actuallity it was repeated.

Her greatest fear, according to acquaintances, was to be touched sexually by a man, and she was especially afraid of being raped. In fact, one male relative had exposed her to repeated sexual abuse, so her male appearance was as much a disguise as a guise. taken from www.crimelibrary.com

I have added a change to the 'Aftermath' section.

Teena Brandon is buried under her real name. That is a fact , and is properly cited. Since we know Teena NEVER went under tha name Brandon Teena, and her grave stone reflects her actual name, I propose the article title be changed accordingly.Nanaharas 23:35, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Whoever's screwing with me on this, DON'T! The gravestone reflects a WOMAN , not a MAN, and that is LEGALLY BINDING. WIki want lawsuit, lawsuit it will get. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nanaharas (talk • contribs) 05:38, 14 May 2007 (UTC).

Someone AGAIN reverted the change to read 'Brandon's grave'. It is NOT 'Brandon's headstone'. It is Teena R. Brandon's grave. I have made the change back to 'Teena's headstone'. All through the article the last names of persons are used, so if you choose to think of her as Brandon Teena, it works either way. I'm telling you... I WILL sue if this keeps getting messed with. That's a promise. Nanaharas 18:40, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia's Manual of Style specifically addresses the question of gender pronouns, and advises that articles use the name and pronoun that the subject used to identify himself. Laws vary from place to place, of course, but in the United States, where Teena lived, it is not illegal to go by a name other than one's legal name, nor to identify as a gender other than one's biological gender. Threatening to sue over a content dispute is specifically prohibited at Wikipedia and is likely to result in a block. -FisherQueen (Talk) 19:03, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

'infamous'

I provided a citation to speak to the relative 'infamy' of the crime. In the commentary, the author states, "Like Matthew Shepard, another white teen from the sticks cruelly slain by the intolerant, Teena has taken on iconic status since his death. His story has been recounted in a film, a documentary, a documentary about the the film, and mainstream press attention ranging from The New Yorker to "20/20." [17]

I've also found a Lambda Legal link, describing the case as one of the 40 most important GLBT rights cases. [18]

If you disagree with the first citation as a summary of the case's 'infamy' as expressed in the breadth of media coverage, or the second's representation of the case as one of the 40 most important cases, please feel free to discuss (if course!). -- User:RyanFreisling @ 20:16, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

'hate crime'

This is an inflammatory phrase, with specific and contentious legal meaning. HRC (the Human Rights Campaign) and GLAAD (Gay-Lesbian Alliance Against Discrimination) refer to the case as a hate crime. For purposes of constructive discussion around resolving the issue here are links to each organization's representation of the Brandon Teena murders as a hate crime. [19], [20], [21] Thanks. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 20:30, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Great job with the Mother Jones reference, which also supports the description of "hate crime." I've updated the ref style.—DCGeist 20:34, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Troll warning tag

The tendentious, evasive, self-contradictory and repetitive nature of the anon/single-role accounts here on a number of issues has led me to the opinion that the placement of a trollwarning tag is justified on this page. The 'personal claims' and 'soapbox' arguments have persisted for almost two months - with the anons and single-role accounts making claim after claim and failing to provide valid evidence, while the other side (more established WP editors) does the work of actually going about determining whether the requested edits are verifiable - and yet the dispute continues to twist and turn. Quite frankly disruption, rather than making verifiable edits, seems the intent of the anon/single-role accounts involved. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 03:37, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

All because I questioned GLAAD and if they were a reliable source.

You're so vain. That warning tag is about the OTHER sad anonymous troll who wastes everyone's time here.—DCGeist 07:53, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

And that is an uncivil and personal attack. Against wiki rules. You removed comments of the same nature the other day and now editors are allowing your comments to stand. Why would this be? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.215.29.119 (talk • contribs)

This would be because the comments I removed the other day were, in fact, of a very different nature: they were purely uncivil, personal commentary on a well-established, identified editor by an unsigned IP-address troll. Time to evolve, friend—DCGeist 19:02, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

And that isn't an uncivil and personal attack? I don't see the editors scrambling to remove your comment. It seems to me, it isn't what you post in this article, it is who posts.

Evolve? I think I will just continue to be a man, and you can go on being what ever it is you pretent to be.

• Your comments are being lost in the noise here as they're still unsigned. Just sayin', is all. Note that I reverted removed comments here at least twice now, on either side of this ... umm ... "discussion". Folks - try to remain civil here and discuss the topic, not each other - Alison ☺ 15:50, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

No offense, but some of you might want to spend a little more time away from Wikipedia, or the internet in general. It's almost as if some of you have an RSS feed to keep you updated on any edits to this page-- maybe even with a small *.wav file that chimes through your speakers whenever anybody has contributed to this Talk page. Just seems to me like this article would benefit if y'all gave it a few days to breathe. —oac old american century ^talk @ 20:58, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

The Tone

Ok, I did some editing, and I think the tone comes off as a bit better. Can someone please review it and maybe tell me what you think? Also, I intergrated that 'trivia section' into the 'Aftermath' section. How does it look? The article still needs some work. Eirra 18:11, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Very nice, tight edits. Quite an improvement. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 18:18, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Added "physiologically"

In reading this article I was a bit confused, so in addition to some minor edits (fixing punctuation, typos, etc.), I added in the opening paragraph a very brief few words indicating that Brandon Teena was "physiologically female," but then everything else is left to refer to the subject as a Male (all pronouns, etc.). To be honest, I found the fact that Teena was referred to as a "he" to be a bit confusing, but now that it clearly states that physiologically Teena was a female, readers should have no problem understanding that the gender identification is largely independent of the subject's genitalia, reproductive organs, and other physiological differences between the sexes. Srajan01 01:37, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

While that is technically correct, it isn't really necessary for WP to handhold people who don't understand gender identity issues. Our job is to report verifiable, reliably sourced information in a correct modern style. It's not our job to explain basic concepts to the backwards. A link from the word "transman" is sufficient; if they are confused they may follow that link to learn more about transgender issues and naming conventions. If the article gets overlong, I would put such unneccessary verbiage on the chopping block, but as the article is fairly small, it isn't necessary yet. Cheers, Kasreyn 15:31, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

"Backwards"? Just because someone knows nothing about this subject does not make them backwards. Calling someone as such only makes you seem closed minded, at best.

My apologies. If you prefer, "ignorant" will do and is probably more correct. In any case, my essential point remains that this article is not the appropriate place to explain basic facts about transgender issues; we already have articles devoted to that purpose. Cheers, Kasreyn 15:41, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I think that is an appropriate change, it distinctly clarifies Brandon's sex as being physically female when Brandon's gender(or gender identity) is male. Regardless of the pronoun people use for Brandon it is clear who Brandon is. It may be reasonable to remove references to he or she throughout the article and except where Brandon's gender or sex is relevent. When talking about Brandon pysically female would be correct. When talking about Brandon mentally male would be correct.

"partly because he was a chronic liar"

Why is the above line constantly being revert-warred over? Is there any evidence/cites to support this? Obviously, as the subject is dead, this isn't a WP:BLP issue, but it's a pretty strong statement & as his parents are still alive, can be pretty offensive. Comments? - Alison ☺ 22:28, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

There's been a bit of discussion about this a bit further up the talk page, under the "Did Brandon Teena date Lisa Lambert?" subheading. Bearcat 22:30, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Only one parent is still alive. And the statement can be found in multiple places in A Jones book "All She Wanted".