Talk:Heraclitus

Mysterious article, who knows where from?

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Enduring Epigrams

Exploring the fragmented works of Heraclitus of Ephesus is a challenging task. This Greek philosophical orator and writer lived in the late 6th century B.C. near Miletus, the birthplace of philosophy (Graham 1). Overtime, most of his works were destroyed; what remains are epigrammatic and prophetic passages reflective of his original, intuitive thought.

Fortunately, many of Heraclitus’ thought-provoking phrases are intertwined in the works of subsequent philosophers such as Plato, Aristotle, Nietzsche and Heidegger. His concepts were frequently the catalyst that generated additional exploration and theory by these esteemed thinkers and they currently provoke many modern men and women with the same intensity. In this holistic light, I will explicate the most prominent and enduring fragment attributed to Heraclitus, briefly illustrate how Heraclitus affected Plato’s search for “certain knowledge” and I will vigorously demonstrate how Heraclitus’ contributions continuously engage us to vet our tenets and reflect upon the meaning (and composition) of our changing lives.

During the 6th century B.C. around Ephesus and Miletus, there was a significant paradigm shift occurring with scholars, “a new freedom of intellectual inquiry […] permitted thinkers, who possessed the courage and the intelligence, to explore alternative explanations for the presence of the world, for human intelligence, for social and economic order, and for the role of divinity in human life” (Geldard I). During this transition period, these thinkers were known as “truth-tellers,” they were “instigators” as well “investigators” (I). They sought to discover “the stuff of which the world was made” (Haxton XI). Often these investigators who exposed and disclosed the truth, and who challenged deeply held philosophical beliefs, were summarily eliminated. These “truth-tellers” therefore opted for the safer title of “Lover of Wisdom or philosopher” (Geldard 2).

Scholars have unearthed between sixty (IX) and one hundred thirty (Robinson 207) aphoristic fragments potentially created by the philosopher Heraclitus. Each fragment is capable of standing alone, on its own merit; although, most are interconnected and interrelated providing a big-picture view of “the three sections [of philosophy] - physics, ethics, and politics-in which the work was divided” (Gomperz 63). This unofficial collection of paradoxical and confounding verses is reminiscent of Heraclitus’ obscure writing style. His works were so difficult for fellow citizens to understand and interpret he was frequently referred to as the “Riddler” (Hooker 1). Unfortunately, although much of his tone and inflection have been lost, his phrases still provide an invigorating mental exercise to contemporary readers. His cryptic style stimulates one to contemplate and meditate beyond traditional dimensions of meaning. As an example, he advises us that “Nature loves to hide” and “You will not find the unexpected unless you expect it; for it is hard to find, and difficult” (Lamprecht 120). {A current book written by Roger Von Oech, “Expect the Unexpected Or You Won’t Find It-A Creativity Tool Based On The Ancient Wisdom Of Heraclitus” further explores Heraclitus’ creative spirit.}

In modern language, the sagacious Heraclitus propels motivated readers to think “out-of-the-box.” If you dissect and digest his words of wisdom, you will find that Heraclitus challenges us to think beyond our own perceptions and sensory inputs; beyond our finite, visible, materialistic world and into “the bright light of original truth” (Geldard 23). He encourages us to examine and explore the interconnectedness of opposites (hot/cold, war/peace, good/evil) and the interdependent nature of systems such as “energy is the essence of matter” (Haxton XIX) and “Things grasped together: things whole, things not whole being brought together, being separated; consonant, dissonant. Out of all things comes one thing, and out of one thing all things” (Robinson 15). Heraclitus in essence provides us with a “vision of the nature of things and the truth of the world we live in” (Haxton XVI).

Furthermore, Heraclitus fundamentally creates radical cognitive dissonance in enlightened and receptive minds. He employed numerous linguistic elements of style in his works such as: similes, metaphors, paradox, proverbs and riddles to enchant his readers and to capture their creative imagination and arouse their academic interest. Each individual reader is uniquely affected by Heraclitus’ statements, the common bond being, that he challenges all readers to think. Most of Heraclitus’ phrases can be applied to multiple topics and are subject to interpretation based on the reader’s education, experience, and open-mindedness. Scholars suggest that his fragments were designed to appeal to “an active and mature mind” (Wheelwright 66) and the “fit and few” (Gomperz 61). Over “2,500 years later, they retain their freshness, relevance, and-yes! The power to stir our minds” (Von Oech 3).

Unfortunately, readers that maintain a pervicacious, narrow and uninquisitive imagination will simply not be touched by his inspiring magic. I believe that if a person simply reads the statement and does not take the time to deeply ponder its subliminal meaning, the underlying message will remain submerged. “Socrates himself, when asked if he had read Heraclitus, replied that although what he had understood impressed him, it would take a Delian diver to comprehend the rest. The pearl hunters from the island of Delos were famous for diving great depths and holding their breath for long periods in order to bring valued treasures to the surface. The fragments as treasures are deep, hidden, tightly held, and elusive” (Geldard 10).

After reading fragments that are attributed to Heraclitus in several books, it appears the passage of time and varied translations have taken their toll. Since the phrases are worded slightly differently in each volume, discrepancies arise as to a fragment’s original structure and meaning. His most famous simile that results in a vivid visualization was translated by several authors into several similar phrases including: You may not enter the same rivers twice; for other waters pour in upon them. (qtd. in Lamprecht 122) It is not possible to step twice into the same river…it scatters and again comes together, and approaches and recedes. (qtd. in McKirahan 122) It is impossible to step twice into the same river…it scatters and regathers, comes together and dissolves, approaches, and departs. (qtd. in Waterfield 41) Upon those who step into the same rivers different and again different waters flow. (qtd. in Reale 49) This last quote is frequently recognized as the most genuine phrase. A modern, condensed version is “all things are flowing” or panta rhei (Kirk 189).

There is considerable disagreement among scholars as to the underlying meaning of this fragment. Was his intent to focus on the constant change or flux within an object or more specifically; was his intent to graphically illustrate an ecological system reflective of his belief of the interconnectedness of sophisticated systems? Was Heraclitus highlighting the observation that there is some underlying stability in change, namely, a being’s identity? (The river was constantly changing, and yet, it is still the “same” river. As we participate in life we are fundamentally the same being although transformed by education and experience.) Some scholars theorize that Heraclitus was illustrating his concept of the “unity of opposites” that the river is the same and yet different river (Cohen 4).

Heraclitus did not provide a detailed explanation of this, or any of his statements; he requires the reader to interpret his wisdom. I believe he causes us to ponder all three concepts: universal flux, identity (connectivity) and unity. Several of his other fragments illustrate that Heraclitus was aware of these theories: “Everything flows and nothing abides; everything gives way and nothing stays fixed” is an awareness of flux (qtd. in Wheelwright 70). “Soul is the vaporization out of which everything else is composed; moreover it is the least corporeal of things and is in ceaseless flux, for the moving world can only be known by what is in motion” is an awareness of an object’s identity or composition (qtd. in Wheelwright). “Out of all things can be made a unity, and out of unity, all things” is an awareness of unity (qtd. in Catan 50).

Heraclitus was widely known for his concept of perpetual motion or flux. He believed that all things are constantly changing and transforming, that there is no stability or permanence in the world. Heraclitus “ascribed to matter an unceasing transmutation of forms and qualities” (Gomperz 66). This ontological position that everything is changing and everything is in flux caused ancient philosophers to question how they could ever know anything.

This skepticism and frustration about our material world (reality) and its constant change, lead Plato to search for certain (unchanging) knowledge (Kenny 205). Plato incorporated Heraclitus’ concepts into his own philosophical thought processes directed toward finding a true, unchanging, reliable world. Subsequently, Plato created an invisible, but very real (and famous) world of “Forms.”

Plato documents his interpretation and knowledge of the Heraclitean flux principle in his work (Cratylus) by stating “All things move and nothing remains, and likening existing things to the flow of a river he says that you could not step twice into the same river” (qtd. in McKirahan 142). Furthermore, in his work Theaetetus, “he repeats that in the view of ‘Homer and Heraclitus and all that crowd’ all things move ‘like streams’” (qtd. in Guthrie 201). McKirahan also documents a report from Aristotle; apparently Plato “as a young man became familiar with Cratylus and the Heraclitean doctrines that all sensible things are always flowing and there is no knowledge of them” (142). Scholar Hans-Georg Gadamer states “[t]his insight into the unreliability of all things… without a doubt, inspired Plato’s thinking…” (209). Plato was clearly aware of and affected by Heraclitus and his flux doctrine.

According to author Jerold W. Apps, “The old way of thinking assumes that change is the only constant in a rapidly changing world. The emerging way of thinking assumes that change itself is changing” (Apps 36). I firmly believe Heraclitus would support and defend this latter assertion. He definitely illustrated “all things are flowing” (Kirk 189) and “everything is in flux” not simply (quantitatively) a few, several or many things. Heraclitus’ “old way of thinking” illustrated in the river fragment in fact comprehensively encompassed the metamorphosis of “change” itself. Heraclitus indubitably utilized this river epigram as an example to illustrate change and the laws of nature; however, “he is less concerned with […] the laws of nature than with inner truth and the discovery of the ways in which human beings can effect a kind of alchemical transformation of their being to bring that being into communion with the Supreme or Absolute Self” (Geldard 9). The definition of “transformation” in the traditional theological context refers to a “transfiguration and reformation; [whereas], in the inner traditions, the term more nearly suggests fundamental change in perception and outlook, combined, perhaps, with a fundamental change in being, which in turn is connected to a more or less permanent alteration in consciousness” (11). This “sound thinking” concept is illustrated by Heraclitus’ universal statement that “All people have a claim to self-knowledge and sound thinking” (qtd. in Robinson 67). Although critical examination of related epigrams tends to indicate that Heraclitus did not consider this a concrete possibility, “his commitment to the principle is in itself remarkable” (157).

In our efforts to garner this “sound-thinking ability,” Heraclitus clearly believed that “A lot of learning does not teach understanding” (qtd. in Robinson). His proposition purports those merely accumulating facts “does not automatically produce insight or understanding, though serious, patient, and open-minded research is of course an absolute sine qua non for the final acquisition of such insight” (106).

This serious, engineered and reverse engineered approach to understanding life and its many macro and micro systems (as well as interrelated components) and to performing critical self-analysis of our numerous beliefs is the foundation of Marquette University and the bedrock of our ORLE 123 Ethics in Leadership Class.

Through our active discussions and studies, I have composed one challenge to offer to Heraclitus, does he concur with Stephen R. Covey that “People can’t live with change if there’s not a changeless core inside them. [That] the key to the ability to change is a changeless sense of who you are, what you are about and what you value” (qtd. in Apps 72)?

If Heraclitus posed that question to me, I would extend Covey’s hypothesis one step further by inserting an additional term into his quote. This word, success, is personally defined as surviving and thriving; therefore, “the key to the ability to [successfully] change is a changeless sense of who you are, what you are about and what you value.” These core beliefs guide our thoughts and actions and can provide us with the substance of stone and source of fuel for self-expansion. Heraclitus stated that “All people ought to know themselves and everyone be wholly mindful” (qtd. in Haxton 71). He poignantly encourages us to examine our lives, to honestly get to know ourselves.

I firmly believe Heraclitus’ ancient wisdom has transcended through time and challenges us today, right now, to seek connected knowledge and to vigorously search for life’s enduring truths through a new, wide angle lens of awe, empathy and self-understanding.

Works Cited

Apps, Jerold. Leadership for the Emerging Age: Transforming Practice in Adult and Continuing Education. San Francisco: Jossey-Bass Inc, 1994.

Cohen, S. Marc. “Heraclitus.” 2002. U of Washington. 29 Nov. 2004 <http://faculty.washington.edu/smcohen/320/heracli.htm>.

Gadamer, Hans-Georg. “Heraclitus Studies.” The Presocratics after Heidegger. Ed. David C. Jacobs. New York: State U of New York Press, 1999.

Geldard, Richard. Remembering Heraclitus. Lindisfarne Books, 2000.

Gomperz, Theodor. Greek Thinkers. Great Britain: William Clowers and Sons Limited, 1964.

Graham, Daniel. “Heraclitus.” 2002. U of Tennessee. 29 Nov. 2004 <http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/h/heraclit.htm>.

Guthrie, W. “Flux and Logos in Heraclitus.” The Pre-Socratics: A Collection of Critical Essays. Ed. Alexander P. D. Mourelatos. Princeton: Princeton U Press, 1974.

Haxton, Brooks. Fragments: The Collected Wisdom of Heraclitus. New York: Penguin, 2001.

Hooker, Richard. “Greek Philosophy: Heraclitus” 1995. Washington State U. 29 Nov. 2004 <http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/GREECE/HERAC.HTM>.

Kenny, Anthony. Ancient Philosophy: A New History of Western Philosophy. Vol. 1. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 2004.

Kirk, G. “Natural Change in Heraclitus.” The Pre-Socratics: A Collection of Critical Essays. Ed. Alexander P. D. Mourelatos. Princeton: Princeton U Press, 1974.

Lamprecht, Sterling, ed. The Early Philosophers of Greece. New York: D. Appleton- Century Co, 1935.

McKirahan, Richard. Philosophy Before Socrates. Indianapolis: Hackett Publishing Co,1994.

Reale, Giovanni. From the Origins to Socrates: A History of Ancient Philosophy. Ed. John Catan. Albany: State U Of New York, 1987.

Robinson, T.M. Heraclitus Fragments: A Text and Translation With a Commentary by T. M. Robinson. Toronto: U of Toronto Press, 1987.

Von Oech, Roger. Expect the Unexpected (Or You Won’t Find It). New York: The Free Press, 2001.

Waterfield, Robin. The First Philosophers: The Presocratics and Sophists. Great Britain: Oxford U Press, 2000.

Wheelwright, Philip, ed. The Presocratics. Indianapolis: Bobbs-Merrill Co, 1975.

Mysterious Article- what should we use?

The information above is all very interesting, and is a wonderful essay on Heraclitus' philosophy, but in my opinion tends to be a bit non-encyclopedic and POV (In this holistic light, I will explicate the most prominent and enduring fragment...). Also it focusses too much on just one fragment. In contrast, our current site examines a wide range of fragments and steers clear of too much commentary or super-imposing later ideas back on Heraclitus. But it's not half as well-written. Anyone fancy the task on coming up with a happy medium between the two? Bunniwhoops 12:49, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I would like to rewrite this article. I am new to contributing to Wikipedia, so would like advice as to the best way to proceed. For example, if I write a draft to propose as a replacement, would I post it here in the Discussion as our anonymous author has done? Toad42 04:50, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Wrong bust

You got wrong face here- this is Democritus from Abdera (see, for instance, http://www.funsci.com/fun3_en/democritus/democritus.htm ). Heraclitus has a more "punker" look, similar to Rasputin. Mir Harven 20:02, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Propose taking out Heidegger

I would like to propose taking out the reference to Heidegger's idea of an "original experience of Being" common to both Heraclitus and Parmenides, since it is really more about Heidegger than Heraclitus. The idea that there is such an experience is not shared by most non-Heideggerian philosophers, and the idea that Heraclitus and Parmenides share a fundamental approach is not common to discussions of Heraclitus or ancient philosophy. Jeremy J. Shapiro 03:16, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Question value of Heraclitus in Fiction section

I question the value of the Heraclitus in Fiction section. Many writers have quoted a couple of Heraclitus's most well-known fragments. What is to be gained by mentioning them, unless perhaps they are among the most notable and influential writers in history? We could have dozens and dozens of them. Please see the discussion of "X in popular culture" on the Talk:Existentialism page. Jeremy J. Shapiro 19:14, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

I've never heard of the reference and it adds very little. Either it can go or be expanded, but I can't think of any other literary references... — goethean ॐ 20:02, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Me neither, and I'm in favor of taking it out. That is, I bet there are dozens of novels that quote Heraclitus to the effect that one can't step twice into the same river, but even if we knew all of them, what would be the point of including them. By the way, one of my favorite points in the history of philosophy was Heralictus's student -- I can't remember who -- who said that you can't step even ONCE into the same river (because if everything is flux, then there isn't a single river, etc.). Jeremy J. Shapiro 20:14, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Fragment numbering

Is there a standard system we can agree on to number the fragments? I see that the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy uses the DK system, but this doesn't correspond to the numbering in my Brooks Haxton text in hand. Haxton says he followed Ingram Bywater's topic-based grouping rather than H. Diels alphabetic arrangement. If we choose one system can someone having access to both set up a cross-reference table? --Blainster 04:51, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Historical Inaccuracies

I'm deleting this: "He appears to have taught by means of small, oracular aphorisms meant to encourage thinking based on natural law and reason. The brevity and elliptical logic of his aphorisms earned Heraclitus the epithet "The obscure". The technique, as well as the teaching, is redolent of Zen Buddhism's koans."

Heraclitus did not teach by aphorisms. He wrote a book, and although all that remains of that book are fragments and quotations, that doesn't mean the intention was to write in such a way. I'm guessing whoever wrote this has been influenced by the scholar H. Diels, who put the fragments in an alphabetical order, and (with Nietzsche's Zarathustra in mind) claimed that the fragments should be conceived in an aphoristic style, and that Heraclitus set down his words in a notebook or philosophical journal, with no literary form linking them. However, the book that Heraclitus wrote disproves this; what is likely is that Heraclitus' structure was influenced by the poetry of Pindar and others, roughly contemporaneous with him. --Matthew 17:33, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

If its a prevalent enough reading of Heraclitus, it should be mentioned (that is, the paragraph should remain, although, like the rest of Wikipedia, it needs references). If there are other interpretations (like the one you suggest), they should be mentioned, too, so long as there are references to back them up. -Smahoney 17:40, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, without a copy of his book, we have no evidence to back up either idea. Still, worth writing both into the article and commenting that that's a debate. Fishy 10:41, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

We don't necessarily need evidence. We need references. So saying that there is a debate is fine, but showing different sides of the debate, with references to who took what position and said what where (in what book, etc.) is how we should go about doing that, not by making unreferenced assertions. -Smahoney 20:25, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Reception

I think a section of this nature would add greatly to the value of this article, such as thoughts from Nietzsche and various commentators, to portray his understatedly significant role in philosophy. Any takers? — ^ignis _scripta 18:07, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Absolutement. I've already put in Popper's thoughts about Heraclitus. I believe 'twas Nietzsche who mused: "With the highest respect, I exclude the name of Heraclitus...But Heraclitus will remain eternally right with his assertion that being is an empty fiction." --Knucmo2 19:47, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

If I may say, I find Popper's view to be a disastrous oversimplification, but that is not at issue for presentation. We'll see how well this turns out—I've writ a small, expandable introduction for the new section. — ^ignis _scripta 20:03, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Igni, this kind of section is usually titled "influence" here on Wikipedia. On a different matter, you might take a look at the vocabulary used on other philosophy articles. "In-house" language (as used in professional journals) would be over the heads of most readers of an encyclopedia. Such terminology should be minimized, but if necessary, it should be linked or defined in the article. --Blainster 02:17, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree, improvements are always welcome whatever they may be. — ^ignis _scripta 02:38, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Correct pronunciation of 'Panta Rhei' ?

Does anyone know? Especially the "rhei". Is that "RAY" or "RAH-AY". Seeing as it's what the philosophy of Heraclitus boils down to for a lot of people, it would be helpful to know.

There are several different pronunciation schemes for ancient Greek for English speakers. There's the reconstructed pronunciation, as described by W. Sidney Allen in '"Vox Graeca, there's the English school pronunciation, and there's the modern Greek pronunciation. I think it would be silly to put in all three pronunciation schemes, so I favour not putting in any at all. CRCulver 22:15, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

A way to pronunce "rhei" is like "re" at the word "replay" agmpinia 14:46,20 August 2006 (UTC)

~~ Correct Pronounciation is: "panta r-e-i" (as though your saying: ray-ie) by ApplesnPeaches ~~

"Fragments"

Re FAMOUS. He is famous for expressing the notion that no man can cross the same river twice. I don't know who is famous for expressing this notion. Certainly not Heraclitus. And certainly none of the people who gave us the "fragments". But we know what Heraclitus would have answered this famous person: My dear friend, no man can step into the same river twice, but there's only one river that no man can cross twice.--BZ(Bruno Zollinger) 08:16, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't disagree, though my agreement is a product of my opinion. Another opinion: this tone of discussion is not appropriate for an encyclopedia. --Kaweah 08:52, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Re OPINION. So what's wrong with YOUR opinion, Kaweah? Socrates didn't ask Kahn, Reinhardt or Burnet for their opinions. Not if we take Plato's word for it. Or do you want to say, what was good enough for the Symposion is not good enough for a discussion in Wikipedia? --BZ(Bruno Zollinger) 10:16, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Re TERMINOLOGY. It would be interesting to know who was the first to call the "fragments" fragments. They are, at best, quotations of interpretations of quotations. As a rule, they are interpretations of quotations of interpretations of quotations of interpretations. What a brilliant idea to give simple hearsay an academic title!--BZ(Bruno Zollinger) 12:25, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I think a better rule is that we cannot know for sure what these fragments are. --Kaweah 08:52, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Re BETTER. But we do know what fragments are, Kaweah. If we could somehow recover all fragments, we would know exactly what Heraclitus wrote. Collecting more "fragments", however, would only add to the confusion. --BZ(Bruno Zollinger) 14:38, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Re DIOGENES LAERTIUS. He gave us roughly 20% of the text of our "fragments". So it pays to take a closer look at everything he has to say about Heraclitus. Only 9 pages (in Loeb), and all the "fragments" in the first 4. How considerate of him to make it so easy for the Professoren! But see for yourself what pearls can be found in the text. For example:

Heraclitus am I. Why do ye drag me up and down, ye illiterate? It was not for you I toiled, but for such as understand me ...

No better way to sum it up. Diogenes Laertius tells us that he has it from Hieronymus and that Hieronymus had it from Scythinus who had it straight from the horses mouth i.e. from someone who had heard someone else recite the epigram with his own ears. In other words, exactly the way all the other "fragments" came about. So why did this one not make the list? Go know, as we say in Switzerland.--BZ(Bruno Zollinger) 08:38, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I would also suggest reading Diogenes L. He contributed much to what we know of Heraclitus, yet he proved himself an imperfect source, and sheer bulk ought not be a criterion for the authenticity of a source. As to the fragment that you cite, I think you do a fine job in explaining why it didn't make the list. Not all fragments share its documented poor pedigree. Furthermore, IMHO any fragment that begins with "Heraclitus am I" has got to be questioned. In any case, it isn't very useful. The message that it presents is not unlike what we think we may know of the man, but it doesn't help us much with his philosophy. --Kaweah 08:52, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Re IMPERFECT. True, Kaweah, but that doesn't explain why any of them did make the list. Why should anyone put more trust in the authenticity of DK 22 A 1 (same source!) for example? --BZ(Bruno Zollinger) 09:32, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Panta Rhei?

I would at least like to see a reference for "Panta Rhei".
My understanding is that the origin of the term "Panta Rhei" is Plato's interpretation of Heraclitus' philosophy, and I also understand that Plato's "Panta Rhei" interpretation of Heraclitus is disputed. Charles Kahn, if I remember correctly, considers the notions of Logos, fire, conflict, unity, and wisdom (sophon) to be more genuinely Heraclitean. The phrase "Panta Rhei", so far as I know, cannot be traced to Heraclitus' fragments. I think that Kahn confirms this. I will be happy to provide references.
--Kaweah 22:37, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

The source for "Panta Rhei" is Plato's Cratylus: "all things flow and nothing stands" (trans. Benjamin Jowett).
--Kaweah 00:56, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Frederick Coppleston writes, in "A History of Philosophy":

Heraclitus is known to many for the famous saying attributed to him, though apparently not his own: "All things are in a state of flux," πάντα ρεί. Indeed this is all that many people know about him. This statement does not represent the kernel of his philosophic thought, though it does indeed represent an important aspect of his doctrine... Heraclitus' original contribution to philosophy is to be found elsewhere: it consists in the conception of unity in diversity, difference in unity... For him the conflict of opposites, so far from being a blot on the unity of the One, is essential to the being of the One. In fact, the One only exists in the tension of opposites: this tension is essential to the unity of the One. (pp. 39-40)

--Kaweah 04:57, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Charles H. Kahn records, in "The Art and Thought of Heraclitus", the two best known interpretations of Heraclitus:

For Plato Heraclitus is the theorist of universal flux (panta rhei "all things flow") in contrast to Parmenides, the partisan of a fixed and stable reality. For Aristotle Heraclitus was a material monist who derived the entire physical world from fire as its underlying element. Both characterizations cast a long shadow over later readings of Heraclitus' text. (pg. 4)

Kahn appears to recognize a third classical interpretation of the Obscure One:

In their dogmatic way, and without his subtlety of thought and expression, the Stoics are the true Heracliteans of antiquity. (pg. 5)

In the late nineteenth century, J. Burnet came along with a new interpretation. Here Burnet is quoted by Kahn:

'The truth hitherto ignored [sc. by Heraclitus' predecessors] is that the many apparently independent and conflicting things we know are really one, and that, on the other hand, the one is also many. The "strife of opposites" is really an "attunement" (harmonia) ... Wisdom is ... a perception of the underlying unity of the warring opposites' (pg. 148)

According to Kahn:

For Heraclitus Karl Reinhardt ... showed how different views of his thought are projected according to the philosophic interests and presuppositions of each author who quotes him. (pg. 151)

This was not meant by Reinhardt to mean that Heraclitus is completely open to any arbitrary interpretation. It has simply become clear that a thorough study of the fragments sheds light on a philosophy that, without necessarily being seen as inconsistent, is too easily oversimplified. If we must strive to express the man's philosophy in a nutshell, we ought not too quickly apply the term panta rhei, as it appears to express a characteristic of Heraclitean thought that is, though true enough, most likely a corollary of the Heraclitean hypothesis.

--Kaweah 08:00, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Influences and Influenced

I have started a discussion regarding the Infobox Philosopher template page concerning the "influences" and "influenced" fields. I am in favor of doing away with them. Please join the discussion there. RJC ^Talk 14:15, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Fire: material or metaphoric?

I have tagged for discussion the following statement in the main article:

... according to some interpretations [Eraclitus] uses fire — with its connotations of both Promethean/human "fire", and the cosmic fire outlined by contemporaneous pre-Socratics — as a metaphor rather than his solution to material monism, however the nature of the evidence is so sparse that it is difficult to substantiate this claim.

Comment: it is IMO impossible to provide a "citation" to support the affirmation that "fire" is metaphoric rather than material, when it has already been declared that "the evidence is so sparse that it is difficult to substantiate this claim".

Action: unless my a.m. comment is convincingly challenged, I am going to remove the "citation needed tag"

Miguel de Servet 11:19, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

It seems to me that what needs citing is not that fire is metaphoric, but rather that there are "some interpretations" of Heraclitus on which this is true. Which interpretations? Surely there are classics scholars out there who have written articles expressing this view which we can cite. --Jonathonjones 05:03, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Is Eraclitus’ change by random chance?

I have tagged for discussion the following statement in the main article:

[Eraclitus'] view on the random chance inherent in the universe is famously the direct opposite of Einstein's (in which he stated "God does not play dice with the universe"): "Time is a child moving counters in a game; the kingly power is a child's."

Comment: the above famous quotation (Fragment DK no. 52) does not imply that change happens by "random chance", but rather that it is unforseable, like a child's game.

Action: unless my a.m. comment is convincingly challenged, I will re-insert a "neutrality disputed" tag after the phrase "random chance inherent in the universe".

Miguel de Servet 11:21, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Marx' thoughts on Heraclitus?

It just seems to me that if Popper's ideas on Heraclitus and dialectics in general are given space, then why not discuss Marx and his thoughts on the same topic? I believe I'm too partisan to do that myself. I could do it, but I'd rip into Popper, whom I consider to have been an absolute charlatan, too much and too viciously to be "NPOV." Thank you.JBDay 00:09, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Heraclitus' influence on and reception by notable philosophers like Popper and Marx are definitely deserving of inclusion in the article. The views of said philosophers on dialectics in general are irrelevant however. If you have a source for Heraclitus' influence on Marx, why not state it so that some other editor might add it? Regards, Skomorokh ^incite 00:33, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I'll see what I can do. Apparently the views of some charlatan on how Marx related to Heraclitus matter more than the actual views of Marx himself. I'm not "net-intent" as I used to be, so it may take awhile. JBDay 19:56, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I have yet to find anything that would fit Wiki's methods. Perhaps the Marx quote "All that is solid melts into air," a direct Heraclitus reference, would be a good starting point for someone who cares to try. By the way, Popper blamed Heraclitus for every bad thing in the world, I'd guess because he, Heraclitus, saw through the illusion of "choice." Good luck.JBDay 19:24, 3 October 2007 (UTC)