Talk:Hillary Clinton

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Opinion on how things are being handled here

From user: Greenwinged: I suggest you people restore John Bolton, 7F, and others' comments. Trying to censor them only shows you are trying to censor the article. People can make up their own mind if the censored comments are any good or not —Preceding unsigned comment added by Greenwinged (talk • contribs) 02:40, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Comments by sockpuppets of banned users trying to evade their bans are to be stricken from Wikipedia, regardless of their merit.Read the banning policy. Tvoz |talk 03:56, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Greenwinged is obviously the newest incarnation of Derek. Turtlescrubber 04:22, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

The striking of 7F/MD12752/whatever sock manifestations is fine. I am less comfortable with Turtlescrubber's removal of John J. Bulten's comments. Yes, he obviously has a hang-up about HRC and it shows. Yes, he admitted he was trying to derail the FAC. Yes, even when he has a legitimate point about something in the article, his tone is uncivil-unto-obnoxious. But we've heard out worse than this guy in these talk pages; by its nature, this article isn't always going to attract model WP citizens. Unless it can be show that Bulten is editing in completely bad faith — such as being a sock, and while I agree his lifetime edit history is a bit suspicious for a purportedly new user, I haven't seen any real evidence for sockedness – it seems to me that we can deal with him here. Wasted Time R 11:30, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I think. Worry not, I don't have immediate further designs on this page. I tried to make a condensation-only edit in good faith, which speaks for itself, but not everyone regarded it as condensation-only. I will see y'all after I get through the Ron Paul suggestion list. But as I said, I did come on a shade too strong at the start, and I have apologized. Considering the Biblical careers of Jezebel and Athaliah might illumine your understanding of my discontent. Ciao. John J. Bulten 12:49, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Just for the record, your condensation-only edit of the lead section, which people can see at [1], read like a Who's Who entry, trying to cram the most information into the fewest words possible. Or, as Tvoz said, like a telegram. While the article's prose no doubt needs to be tightened in numerous places, this was going too far. It also, as Tvoz said, introduced several errors, including suggesting that HRC was the country's ambassador to the UN and other countries and subsuming the cattles future controversy into the Clinton administration. I agree with Tvoz's backing out of this version of the lead. Wasted Time R 13:15, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I've now restored the John J. Bulten comments in question. Wasted Time R 00:24, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Peter Paul

Considering his ties with the clintons, including allegedly being defrauded by Hilary, don't you think this article shoudl mention Peter Paul (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_F._Paul) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.245.74.177 (talk) 22:51, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Considering that Paul's lawsuit against Hillary was thrown out for lack of evidence, and considering that Hillary's finance director was acquitted of charges, no it doesn't merit inclusion here. It is covered in the United States Senate election in New York, 2000 article, however. Wasted Time R 10:57, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Michael Lerner

Why no mention of Michael Lerner and Hillary's adoption of "The Politics of Meaning"?. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 04:13, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Very good point! I've recently been adding material on the evolution of her political thinking, and I was planning to include this. Will be in shortly ... Wasted Time R 10:58, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Now done. Wasted Time R 23:31, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm a member, why can't I edit the page?

Does someone have an answer? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cromptonenator (talk • contribs) 08:05, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Hi Cromptonenator, and welcome. It looks like you have a new account, and only accounts at least four days old can edit semi-protected articles. Until then, if you see something that needs changing, you can suggest it here on the talk page. --Bongwarrior 08:16, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Lead

The lead section appears to be way to long, and way to detailed. How about something like this:

"Hillary Diane Rodham Clinton (born October 26, 1947) is the junior United States Senator from New York, and a candidate for the Democratic nomination in the 2008 presidential election. She is married to Bill Clinton—the 42nd President of the United States—and was the First Lady of the United States from 1993 to 2001.

A native of Illinois, Hillary Rodham began her career as an influential lawyer after graduating from Yale Law School in 1973; she was named the first female partner at Rose Law Firm in 1979. She served as the First Lady of Arkansas from 1979 to 1981 and 1983 to 1992, during which she was active in a number of organizations concerning the welfare of children.

As First Lady of the United States, she took a more prominent position in policy matters than many before her. Her major initiative, the Clinton health care plan, failed to gain approval by the U.S. Congress in 1994, but she helped establish the State Children's Health Insurance Program and other legislation, notably the Adoption and Safe Families Act of 1997. During her tenure, Clinton's travels were extensive; she holds the record as being the most travled First Lady. She later became the first First Lady to be subpoenaed, testifying before a Federal grand jury as a consequence of the Whitewater scandal in 1996. She was never charged with any wrongdoing in this or several other investigations during the Clinton administration. The state of her marriage to Bill Clinton was the subject of considerable public discussion following the Lewinsky scandal in 1998.

Moving to New York, Clinton was elected to the United States Senate in 2000, the first time a First Lady was elected to public office and the first female Senator from that state. There she initially supported the George W. Bush administration on some foreign policy issues, which included voting for the Iraq War Resolution, but now opposes the administration on the Iraq War and most domestic issues. Nevertheless, she was re-elected by a wide margin in 2006. Long described as a polarizing figure in American politics, during 2007 she has consistently been the front-runner in polls for the 2008 Democratic nomination for President."

This is more concise, yet still provides a very thorough overview of the article. She probably was an influential lawyer, but that can be summed up without going into detail about her being one out of 100 (put that in the lawyer section). Plus, the "almost any before her" was POV and needs a cite; "many" works just fine. Ambassador abroad? Talk about pickling words! She traveled more than any other FL which definitely should be said (here's a cite: http://www.firstladies.org/biographies/firstladies.aspx?biography=38 - you have to scroll down a bit), but characterizing her as an "ambassador abroad" is just POV. Best, Happyme22 02:12, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Happyme, thanks for your comments. Unfortunately, everyone has conflicting opinions about what should be in the lead, how much detail vs. generality it should have, whether it should have cites or merely summarize cited material in the article body, and so forth. During FAC I got comments that it was too vague and the User:BQZip01/FA Tips guidelines say to keep cites out of the lead (which I agree with). Furthermore, I hadn't yet gotten around to backing out some unwarranted additions that K157 had made to it. Anyway, I've now pulled some stuff and I've put your broke-travelled-record cite into the body of the article (can't be sure she still holds the record though, maybe Laura Bush has travelled more). Wasted Time R 17:45, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I understand; just wanted to help with the article. Thanks for listening. Best, Happyme22 01:03, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Who is editing ?

According to an article I read, Wikipedia is a very important web site among those giving information about our society etc, among the most visited. And I read that for Wikipedia articles where some organisations are very interested in what is written on major news and info sites, professional PR people might be editing. It is well known that the most important way of doing PR for something is making press and media write positive articles. Wikipedia is a kind of media where the readers edit themselves.
So, how many people that are professional PR people or at least getting paid for it are editing articles about the president candidates ? [13:25, 18 October 2007 BIL]

It's impossible to know for sure, but I don't think much editing is being done by PR people. You have to be pretty familiar with WP rules and customs to be successful on these kinds of high-profile articles; crude beginner attempts to delete or spin unfavorable material or to insert fluff usually won't stay in for long. And the content discussions and edit wars that do happen on these kinds of articles have the same "feel" as on all other kinds of WP articles, indicating it's regular WP editors who are involved. But I could be wrong; on the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog. Wasted Time R 13:46, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

But to be really honest, I think he has a bit of point there. The article reads so smooth, hardly any edges appear, and its very (too) long too... :( Reads like an idealized "description" to me (but then again this is just my impression, I may be wrong) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.108.103.172 (talk) 23:20, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

The person most responsible for the current state of the article — for good or for bad — is me, and I guarantee you that I'm not associated with the Clinton campaign or any other campaign, I'm not a PR person professional or otherwise and never have been, I don't work in the media or any related field and never have, and not only am I not getting paid for this, I have "spent" (euphemism for "squandered") many countless otherwise potentially useful or valuable hours on it. But thanks for your glowing assessment nonetheless. Wasted Time R 00:05, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

After all the polishing that's gone on, it's good to know that "hardly any edges" appear to a new reader. Good work, Wasted. (As for dogs on the net, woof.) Tvoz |talk 05:05, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

infoboxes

Consensus was reached (see Talk archives) to not have infobox entries for LSC, CDF, or anything other than Senator/First Lady US; the bottom boxes also would not inlude all of the legal posts, but would also include the FL of Arkansas. Having the others bogs down the page, making it harder to find the really notable material. There is ample mention of these posts in the text - they should not be re-added to the boxes unless a new consensus is reached here. I removed them to conform to the discussions that took place here. Tvoz |talk 01:52, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, I believe a new conversation should be started in regards to the infoboxes. Donna Shalala and other CDF and LSC Chairs have info- and succession boxes that are quite similar. The LSC - a role in presidential admins. - seems quite prominent as does the national CDF. These are imporant legal - and in the LSC's case, quite political - offices and are usually broght up in writings about Mrs. Clinton.ILDB 03:11, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Only because the editor(s) campaigning for these infoboxes and succession boxes put them there! Indeed, such editor(s) have created stubby bio articles for LSC and CDF heads, just for the purpose of having blue links in these boxes. I don't quite understand the compulsion in this regard ... no one is denying that LSC and CDF are important, and the HRC article gives them their weight. That doesn't mean they are box-worthy. Wasted Time R 03:22, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I moved it out of Donna Shalala's infobox into the text where it has appropriate weight. As for Hillary, I don't understand the compulsion either, but feel strongly that simplicity and streamlined is the way to go here for infobox and the bottom boxes (what are they called?). Infobox entries should be limited to the most significant positions an individual has held - in this case, clearly Senator and FL of the US. LSC and CDF are given their proper weight in the article. Tvoz |talk 05:00, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I think we can find a compromise that both sides can agree on. I propose LSC Chairwomanship in the infobox, but not board member. Board member and CDF Chair can go in legal offices in succession box. It is an important office, and only Senator and First Lady of Arkansas and U.S. is in the succession boxes. I believe that has much more to do with her husband's carrer. Those other offices are very prominent and deserve space in the succession boxes.K157 02:36, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

I strongly disagree, again - we went over this a while back, and this is not a matter of compromise. Neither LSC nor CDF should be in the infoboxes or the succession boxes. Her political career is defined by First Lady and Senator now - at this stage those other posts recede in importance, and it's not clear they ever would have been "infobox-worthy". They are covered in the text appropriately and should not be in the infoboxes or succession boxes. It is too hard to find the really important information when minor positions are included. And I don't think we need to worry about her career being eclipsed by her husband's. Tvoz |talk 03:34, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

If Ark FL deserves two boxes, then LSC and CDF definetly do, if only succession boxes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.142.62.78 (talk) 02:04, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Both deserve space at the bottom boxes. LSC definetly merits an infobox at the top, at least the chairwomanship. Perhaps also Legal Counsel to U.S. HoR J C; it's often listed with sen. FL and LSC as a political office. Sometimes only w/ FL and Senator; Mdmp888 02:10, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

This is adequately covered in the article's text. Tvoz |talk 02:52, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Isn't this consensus? ILDB 13:34, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I think this merits inclusion in WP:LAME for "Lamest thing socks were created for ever!" Wasted Time R 13:55, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Consensus is consensus - it is agreed that we should include infoboxes and succession boxes for LSC Char and CDF Chair; by the way, if Lynne Cheney is important enough to get an infobox for 6th Chair of the National Endowment for the Humanities! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.142.62.78 (talk) 01:17, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

No, there is no consensus for these additions - what is agreed is that this material does not belong in infoboxes or succession boxes, and it is also agreed that sockpuppetry to support oneself is a blockable offense. Tvoz |talk 09:00, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Why can't these be included?

Assignments

1. Committee on Budget (2001-2003)
2. Committee on Environment and Public Works (2001-present)
   Subcommittee Assignments: Clean Air, Wetlands, Private Property, and Nuclear Safety | Fisheries, Wildlife, and Water | Superfund, Waste Control, and Risk Assessment
3. Committee on Health, Education, Labor and Pensions(2001-present)
   Subcommittee Assignments: Aging | Children and Families
4. Committee on Armed Services (2003-present)
   Subcommittee Assignments: Airland | Emerging Threats and Capabilities | Readiness and Management Support
5. Special Committee on Aging.
6. Chairman of Steering and Outreach Committee (2003-2007)
7. Vice Chairman of Committee Outreach (2007-present)
8. Chairwoman of the Senate Subcommittee on Superfund and Environmental Health (2007-present)

I thought the purpose of Wiki was to provide accurate and thorough information?

If you want citations, just say so, they are readily available. My goal here to provide the most accurate account of Senator Clinton's career, not just selectively choose what I should or should not put in the article. [01:31, 23 October 2007 MasterRegal]

The issue was one of space. However, I am in the process of splitting out the Senate section into a separate article, and I am including your additionsa above into the new article. Wasted Time R 02:02, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

I think the Democratic caucus committees need to be separated from the Senate committees if they're to be included - it's really apples and oranges. Tvoz |talk 03:42, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Now present in Senate career of Hillary Rodham Clinton#Assignments. Wasted Time R 13:08, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

inclusion of campaign logos

from the text i submitted when requesting temporary unprotection of Fred Thompson:

having reviewed the articles for the 2008 presidential candidates, i realized that the majority of the articles did not have campaign logos inserted in them. a minority of articles do have them. a campaign logo/poster/image, by definition, is intended to promote the candidate. promotion implies POV. the inclusion of these images is inherently POV. i've removed these images from a handful of articles, and would like to have the image removed from this article - in that way, all candidate articles will be represented equally, in service to NPOV.

with the re-inclusion of clinton's campaign logo, hers is now the only presidential candidate biography that has such a logo. i assert that either all candidate bio's have such logos, or none. the latter is better, per the justification above. Anastrophe 18:00, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Using the campaign logo is simply using an image associated with the campaign and candidate. It helps illustrate the article, and these articles are often in need of such illustrations. Yes, the logo is intended to promote the candidate, but so what? We put corporate logos on articles about corporations and we put albums covers on articles about music albums and we put movie posters on articles about films, and they're all designed to promote as well. The promotion involved is innocuous and does not constitute the article endorsing the campaign; it's merely using the image to describe the campaign. In some cases the logos are informative, such as this one just using one word "Hillary", which commentators have noted; you get to see what the candidates are trying to stress. As for your argument that not all candidate articles have the logo in them, a better solution is to add the logo for those that don't! Not all corporation articles have logos ... if Coca-Cola had one and Pepsi-Cola didn't, that wouldn't be an argument for deleting the former. Wasted Time R 18:09, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

noted, and these are good points. however - for one thing, not all candidates even have logos (mostly the minor party candidates). as well, i'd submit that later in the campaigns, as the candidates winnow down to just a few, we're likely to have more pointed illustrations in the heat of the campaigns - "vote for Hillary, she won't destroy the country like Giuliani" (pure speculation on my part obviously). that would be 'just an illustration' from the campaign. but it wouldn't be appropriate for inclusion, unless it were notable above and beyond the mudslinging that inevitably ensues in such campaigns. re your comment on my talk page on seeking consensus, i appreciate that, but this also falls into the WP:BOLD realm, and has started such discussion, which is a fine way for things to evolve, in my opinion. i'm not going to do any more reversions of images. i see your point, though i still lean towards exclusion of the images rather than inclusion - if only on the previous consideration that at the time i edited the articles, only eight of eighteen major party candidates had logos. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anastrophe. (talk • contribs) 18:19, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

The logo in question is historical - it was used for her 2006 senate reelection campaign, and has nothing to do with her current bid for president. --Stephan Schulz 18:27, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

'nothing to do with' is a bit of an overstatement. her presidential campaign poster differs only in the inclusion of "for president". the logo otherwise is identical. Anastrophe 19:01, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

If you aren't familiar with American politics, campaign logos remain positive, even if the campaign gets into mudslinging, negative ads, etc. Furthermore, your argument that all the candidate articles have to "be the same" with respect to this or any other criteria doesn't really work. This being Wikipedia, the candidate articles are all different: some are well-written, some are a mess, some are much longer than others, some are FA or GA and most are not, some have broken out 'Political positions' articles and some do not, and so forth. If your boldness extends to removing all aspects of articles which are not present in all the others, your lowest-common-denominator result at the end is going to be pretty threadbare. Wasted Time R 18:31, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

i am familiar with american politics, having voted in every presidential election since 1980. yes, the articles all differ in quality, that's not at issue, nor is making all articles match the lowest common denominator a fair summary of what i did or plan to do (and is an unfair characterization, IMO). campaign posters and logos are created for what purpose? to promote the candidate. they are not synonymous with company logos - when a new company is being formed, do they generate a logo, then once they're established, eliminate it? the logo's purpose is the get the candidate's name into people's consciousness, and by the very common practice of saturation presentation of these logos (plastered everywhere), it's explicit that the point is to promote the candidate. if every article had a logo, and all were the same size, and in the same position in the article, then it would be approaching NPOV. what initially started this for me was seeing the logo on the mitt romney page increased in size - and finding an assortment of sizes on other pages. in the mitt romney article, it was clearly pushing POV, as at one point the entire presidential campaign portion and logo were moved by an editor to the top of the page. Anastrophe 19:01, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Apologies for misunderstanding who you are, your user page said you are a professor in Belgium ... then it says you are somebody else ... I dunno what it says. But your description "get the [entity]'s name into people's consciousness, and by the very common practice of saturation presentation of these logos (plastered everywhere), it's explicit that the point is to promote the [entity]" is exactly what corporate logos do - look again at Coca-Cola or NBC or Allstate - we've all seen these images zillions of times. Same purpose, yet we include them in those articles. And if the articles can't show the logos, are they also forbidden from quoting campaign slogans and speeches? Your understanding of NPOV in this context is faulty; User:Morphh below has it right. Wasted Time R 20:20, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

sigh. i understand your point re corporate logos; but the argument doesn't map 1:1. my concern is editors attempting to subtly push their candidate through inclusion of what is essentially a form of 'swag' - shall we have images of 'hillary for president' lapel pins, bumper stickers, screen savers, etc etc? they all are also just 'illustrations'. more candidate articles do not have logos included than do have logos included. if all articles have logos, all logos are precisely the same size, and in the same part of the article, then it's appropriate, and not pushing a POV. i still maintain it's better to not have them than to have them - the logos add no information to the article that is of any particular value. my understanding of NPOV is not faulty; other editors have demonstrably pushed POV by such actions as making the logo enormous. i'm trying to err on the side of avoiding such temptations to push POV. as i've stated, i'm not going to involve myself in actually removing or restoring logos. the discussion has been valuable in my opinion. hopefully either all articles or none of the articles will have logos, eventually. Anastrophe 21:35, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

My post from Huckabee's article - Images don't have to be "neutral". If they illustrate the content of the topic under discussion, that is sufficient for inclusion. I'm sure many articles would like to pull pictures because they present the topic in a positive or negative light, but the purpose of the image is to illustrate the content. The content is what falls under NPOV policy and even then the NPOV rule simply does not prohibit the use of biased sources, biased images, or biased material, as odd as that may sound. The NPOV rule instead means that Wikipedia itself does not take a position within the article that "this source is correct" or "that source is wrong". NPOV relates to how the material is presented. Your removal of the image is inappropriate and uniformity across candidates is not a justification for such a removal. Each article grows at its own pace and there is no rule on uniformity for you to assert such. Morphh ^(talk) 18:58, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Morph and Wasted on this - the inclusion of campaign logos is appropriate, regardless of which other articles have them. There is an assumption here that is false: that the articles are here to promote the candidacies. For example, I actively edit articles on at least six individuals who are running for President - and occasionally edit at least another 6 or 7 - plus the associated sub articles, spouse articles, parents' articles, etc.: not as a supporter, but as an editor. As Wasted said, the articles vary greatly. I think it would be great if they all were up there at GA or FA quality, but that takes an enormous amount of focused work and not all of them receive that amount or quality of attention. We shouldn't remove material from one because another one doesn't have something similar - we will end up with a lot of poor articles rather than a few brilliant, many average, and a few mediocre. I think anyone editing these articles responsibly wants to raise the level of the mediocre ones, regardless of who the subject is, and that's a good place to focus some attention - but not by removing elements of the good ones because the poor ones don't have them. Also, I wouldn't worry too much about supporters making logos too large in any article - from what I've experienced, that wouldn't last too long, because of all of the eyes watching. Tvoz |talk 03:00, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

the discussion on the huckabee article however has dovetailed with fair-use, and lack of same for the logos. you may wish to read that discussion as well. i will add that i'm not sure who you believe is assuming that articles are here to promote the candidates. i never said as much, and i don't think any other editor has either. what we have suggested is that articles are fodder for supporters to attempt to promote the candidate, however subtly or ham-handedly. Anastrophe 03:48, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I'll take a look at Huckabee, thanks. Sorry, I misunderstood you when you said "my concern is editors attempting to subtly push their candidate". The only point I wanted to make about that is that I don't look at these as articles about "candidates". I look at them as biographies of individuals - their whole lives and careers - whose presidential campaigns are only one aspect. So I don't view the inclusion of these logos as partisan - I support their inclusion on Thompson and CLinton, and any others where the editors want them. Tvoz |talk 04:19, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

i share the same view of the articles myself. i'm not partisan for any of the candidates, major or minor - i've seen enough presidential elections in my lifetime to know that the 80/20 rule applies: 80% of what the candidates say during the campaign is, for lack of a better term, crap. so i ignore the campaigns almost entirely, almost until the end, being rather more interested in their record on policy before they were seeking new office. but, that's a metadiscussion for another time. i see the use of logos as just opening the door for partisan abuse. all the logos are trivially easy to see by simply visiting the candidate's websites, if one so desires. they add nothing of particular informational value to the article. Anastrophe 06:12, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, we haven't had that particular problem here - we have lots of people watching the article, and reverting when needed. So - Anastrophe, you said that you are not going to get involved in removing or restoring logos any more, just want to discuss it - that's always welcome. The 2006 Senate race logo that was on this page, it seems to me, really doesn't even have much relevance to this conversation (although admittedly it doesn't say "Senate" on it) - it was from the Senate campaign site, available for download. No one has raised any fair use problems with it. ThuranX came over from Huckabee where there are indeed some big problems going on (about POV editing) and removed it from here without discussion, despite the edit summaries that preceded his/her edit - I object to that. Whatever the real issues that are going on over there, and there are some big ones, don't seem to be relevant here, and this logo has nothing to do with it. In fact this article has been in FAC discussions for the last few weeks and no one there had any problem with that logo, and that is a pretty thorough bunch who were going over every pixel, comma, and space. So I reinstated the logo where we had it - the sense here seems to be that it is ok. But of course we can continue discussion. Tvoz |talk 06:52, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

NPC Sorority

Didn't she belong into a sorority in college? If so, I think it is notable in mentioning it in the article. Miranda 06:07, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Didn't belong to one, as far as I know. Wasted Time R 11:54, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I think she was, because she was offered honorary membership into Alpha Kappa Alpha, but declined due to an unknown reason. There is a rule that members of NPC sororities can't apply to NPHC sororities. Maybe it's in her biography? Miranda 00:30, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't have Living History out of the library right now, so I can't check, but you're welcome to do so ... it doesn't seem like something she would have done. Wasted Time R 00:58, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

TooLong Quite long

I think the article is a little bit too long. I understand that you want to provide a lot of information, but its a bit hard to read... maybe different sections can be pulled out into standalone articles? [23:18, 29 October 2007 80.108.103.172]

We already have at least eight standalone articles out of this one, as you can see by searching for occurrences of "Main article:" in the text. But I take your comment seriously, it reflects some of the FAC comments as well. Wasted Time R 00:14, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Propose to add a new section titled 'Controversies'

There have been several controversies surrounding Hillary Clinton. For ex: http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gUtFgO8foY5-Gy8CFMqcRyGxtxJQD8SJ7AV00

There are more controversies, which are important to mention, in the interest of NPOV.

Please respond if you see a reason not to add the controversies section. TwakTwik 03:34, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

This has been discussed at great length and tried several ways: the consensus reached (see the archives) was that we do not want a separate controversies section or article - it was agreed that reliably sourced controversies should be integrated into the text and notes of the main article where appropriate and in separate daughter articles where appropriate. This has been done, and many, many controversies both big and small are included and well-integrated in the set of articles. Tvoz |talk 04:59, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Like she said. Regarding your particular issue, the Peter Paul/Hollywood fundraiser/Paul v. Clinton business is discussed in several places: United_States_Senate_election_in_New_York,_2000#Hollywood_fundraiser (which now includes the AP article you cite), Gala Hollywood Farewell Salute to President Clinton, Paul v. Clinton, and if you want background on the figure at the center of this affair, Peter F. Paul. Wasted Time R 11:31, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree. "Controversy" and/or "Criticism" sections are almost always ill-advised and usually become troll-magnets. Hillary Clinton has a long deep public history, and having a "controversy" section is just going to be an invitation for Clinton-bashing trolls to insert absolutely every alledged (and substantiated) controversy and criticism of her. And while I agree that there is a lot to criticize about her, and she has been involved in her share controversis, for this encyclopedia entry, we can and should mention only the most relevant of these. Detailing every single controversy, criticism, and praise of her would make a great book, but a bad encyclopedia entry. Yilloslime (t) 15:59, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Its very interesting that the leading Republican candidate Rudy Giuliani gets a long Controversies section, but the leading Democratic candidate is protected from controversies by Wikipedia . I see it as POV. TwakTwik 21:24, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, Huckabee gets a nice long controversy section too. "Funny" how Hillary gets her's whitewatered ... er ... whitewashed here. --24.6.29.122 08:10, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Mactographer, the solution for this is to dismantle the Huckabee controversies section. In fact, looking at it, it's a really bad one: the two biggest subsections, 'Fiscal record' and 'Illegal immigration', don't belong even if you believe in controversies sections — they are policy disagreements! By definition, virtually everything a politician does is opposed by somebody, that doesn't make it a 'controversy' in this sense. Ugh. You've proved our point — controversies sections tend to be awful, and no one should have them. Wasted Time R 12:36, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm just sayin'... if Wikipedia wants to TRULY be NPOV, they have to practice it with all the presidential candidates. They should even bend over backwards to do it. But since it's edited by every Tom, Dick and Schmoe (myself included) it's probably impossible. --Mactographer 07:07, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

There is no "they" in this case. There is no guidance from on high (User:Jimbo or anyone else) on what presidential candidates' articles should look like. All that you see now — the "XYZ presidential campaign" subarticles, the "Political positions of XYZ" subarticles, the "Controversies" sections or subarticles or lack thereof — was cooked up by individual editors working on individual candidates' articles, and copied to one degree or another by other individual editors working on other individual candidates' articles. There's little consistency across the "XYZ presidential campaign" articles, for example — Ron Paul presidential campaign, 2008 and Mike Gravel presidential campaign, 2008 go into great detail about each debate appearance and media appearance of those candidates, while John McCain presidential campaign, 2008 and John Edwards presidential campaign, 2008 have almost nothing in that area. And so on. So if you are waiting until "they" dismantle and disburse the Mike Huckabee controversies section, you'll have a long wait; you should do it yourself. Wasted Time R 12:14, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree that it's bad that they are handled differently. I would support the dismantling of the Giuliani controversies section and daughter article to integrate the appropriate contents into the mainline of the articles, as was done here. But you are wrong to say that Hillary is "protected from controversies by Wikipedia": they are all here, from senior thesis to cattle futures to Whitewater to Travelgate to Suha Arafat to Norman Hsu and many more, it's just that they are just in the Hillary articles in their appropriate chronological and subject matter place. It's just like you were reading a regular biographical book on her. Wasted Time R 21:30, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

You are talking about changing majority of biographies, since Controversies seem to be the norm- for ex: check out George W. Bush's page. I think we just need to add a Controversies section to Hillary Clinton's page to make the article NPOV. I would like to add a POV tag to the entire article for now. TwakTwik 23:12, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I haven't looked at the Giuliani or Bush page, and I agree that we should strive for consistency, but I think the solution here is to improve the Giuliani and Bush pages by incorporating the controversy sections, rather than "worsening" this article by creating a controversy section. I also think a POV tag is ill advised at this stage of the game. Where is the POV you see? What's not being covered in the article that should be, or what's given undue weight? Let's discuss first, tag later. Yilloslime (t) 23:33, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

TwakTwik, controversies sections are not the norm for high-quality articles. Look at Ronald Reagan, Gerald Ford, Wesley Clark, and Barack Obama, all of which have achieved Featured Article status. Or for older subjects, Franklin D. Roosevelt, Calvin Coolidge, and Theodore Roosevelt, again all FA. Look at Nancy Reagan, which is currently being considered for FA, or Ron Paul, which was recently up for FA and fell short due to other reasons. None of these articles have controversies sections! Indeed, I don't know of any FA article that does have one; I don't think it would pass muster. Wasted Time R 23:57, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Please see Bill Clinton, Al Gore. May be the discussion should be about Wikipedia standards - how do we get an opinion on standard?.

Its POV right now, because the controversies are hidden inside longer text for Hillary and seem to protect her image better than other current figures such as Rudy Giuliani.

Given Wikipedia's reputation, many voters will refer to it to read up on candidates, and we should be extra careful to ensure that all current presidential candidates are projected in an NPOV way.

I will not add POV tag yet, but if any other editor also views this as a problem, we should apply POV tag.

TwakTwik 00:08, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Again, the solution is to bring the other articles up to higher standards, not to drag this one down to their level. And slapping a POV-tag onto this article b/c it lacks a controversies section would be an improper use of that tag. Yilloslime (t) 00:18, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

And quite pointy... There is nothing POV about integrating the controversies related to an article's subject into the existing prose of the article... Matter of fact it is more NPOV as it does not give undue weight to either the positive or negative aspects of the subject. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 00:26, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Are you kidding me? There is such an obvious bias and agenda schema between the numerous political entries. It is rather embarrassing to read. Please reconsider the standards policies. I have a general policy mandated to my graduate students - which is - to refrain from using Wikipedia references in the bibliography section of their papers - largely because of the inconsistencies. I've just edited some nonsense (jibberish; non-political) from the John Bolton site. We need to stop placing politicians (all persuasions) on pedestals ... the OxfordDen ... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Oxfordden (talk • contribs) 03:17, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Your policy towards your graduate students is correct: Wikipedia articles are not appropriate as references for academic or scholarly work. But I would be interested in your pointing us to some real scholarly works that have chapters named "Controversies" that are collecting grounds for all negative material or allegations about historical or political figures. Most scholarly works I'm familiar with integration such material into mainline narrative text, just as we do here. Wasted Time R 12:37, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore, it's worth noting that the Controversies of Rudy Giuliani article is currently being has been dismantled, which will alleviate the complaints of User:TwakTwik and others that the existence of controversies articles is aligned along party lines. Wasted Time R 12:40, 8 November 2007 (UTC) Wasted Time R 18:40, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Article title

Just wondering, why isn't this article located at Hillary Clinton. Official naming conventions are (WP:NC) to use the most common name, unless it conflicts with something else. Now maybe it's just me, but I don't think I've ever heard any news source refer to Clinton as "Hillary Rodham Clinton" (just as "Hillary Clinton"). So why the long name? Hillary Clinton doesn't conflict with anything else. Just to demonstrate, Google shows 7,310,000 hits for "Hillary Clinton", while showing only 1,640,000 for "Hillary Rodham Clinton". - ^Estoy_Aquí^{(t • c • e)} 14:59, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

See Talk:Hillary_Rodham_Clinton/Archive_5#Requested_move. And you're wrong about news sources, The New York Times always uses the full name in its first reference to her, see today's story for instance, as well as its profile page on her. Wasted Time R 15:41, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually I'm not wrong. I said "I've never seen it". Which I hadn't until now ;) - ^Estoy_Aquí^{(t • c • e)} 13:11, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Ghostwriting

Should there not be an entry about the controversial authorship of 'It Takes a Village' and other books - which were not written by Mrs. Clinton? ... Oxfordden 03:50, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

This is incorporated in detail in the appropriate subarticles: Living History and It Takes a Village. Tvoz |talk 08:55, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Middle name

I am sure this has been discussed, but why is Hillary's middle name used in the name of the article? Most other politicians seems just to have their first and last. KnightLago 13:30, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

It's been discussed many times, and several times right above this! Sigh. And it's not her middle name, it's her unmarried name. Wasted Time R 13:33, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Wow, I need more sleep, I completely missed that. Thanks for the explanation. KnightLago 13:38, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

"A new kind of first lady"?

Not really neutral POV. rich 23:20, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

If the section establishes that she was the first FL to hold a post-graduate degree, the first to have her own professional career up until entering the White House, the first to have an office in the West Wing, and the first to hold a formal policy portfolio, then why is this section title not accurate and neutral? It doesn't mean she was a good FL, or a bad FL, just that she had several characteristics that no previous FL had had. Wasted Time R 00:11, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

"An uncharacteristic First Lady" might be better. "new kind" is actually inaccurate - she was a female and wife of the president, so clearly she was not a "new kind" of first lady. "Differences with past First Ladies" would be even more accurate. Anastrophe 01:42, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

"An uncharacteristic First Lady" it is. Wasted Time R 01:59, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

new direction in 2nd term

During her 2nd term, unlike the 1st, she is being accused of flip-flopping a lot. So I have tried to use the most neutral language and the most reliable left or center news sources to document it. That's really the fairest thing to do rather than paint a glowing picture of the senator. Truth is better than untruth. It doesn't have to slam her.Jessica Bell 01:32, 14 November 2007 (UTC)