Talk:Barack Obama

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middle name

If Hillary Rodham Clinton is the title of hillary's page why isn't Hussein in the title page of Barack's.RYNORT 04:14, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Because she uses "Hillary Rodham Clinton" as her name. That's why the page is "George W. Bush" not "George Walker Bush". And that's why this page is "Barack Obama". Tvoz |talk 05:16, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Tvoz got the answer right, but just something to point out: You do realize that Hillary's middle name isn't 'Rodham', right? That it's 'Diane'? And so the reason that Obama's middle name isn't in the article title is precisely the same as the reason that Hillary's isn't in her own article's title. (hence Hillary Rodham Clinton, not Hillary Diane Rodham Clinton) 209.90.135.57 (talk) 19:33, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

No Tvoz is correct to assert that HRC's middle name is Rodham. Its common practice to for women to replace their middle names with their maiden names, when they take their husbands last name, which is what HRC did in 1982. thanks Astuishin (talk) 07:56, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

added drug specifics

added the part about how he said he used drugs to help him in his book.RYNORT 22:08, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the information you added was both factually and grammatically incorrect. --Loonymonkey (talk) 02:04, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Comment on complaint about lack of criticism section, which was removed just before I hit "Save page"

I am a Republican who likes Senator Obama, but probably will not vote for him. I would much prefer to read an article telling the positive points about someone. Of course criticism should be mentioned but it shouldn't be the major thing. I would like to see the other articles more like this one rather than the other way around. Steve Dufour (talk) 05:35, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Where is the Obama Criticism section?

GO ahead, censor my post again, I'll just repost it. You wont stop me, unless you ban me. But why would you ban me? Because You will not include a section that other candidates have? BIAS! Wikipedia has a terrible reputation, and the hawks here are proof. I speak for A LOT of people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.18.63.188 (talk) 05:43, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I believe this is the IP of RYNORT (talk · contribs), who has constantly been warned for POV pushing. See my [[{User_talk:Blaxthos#excuse_me|this thread]] and the one below it for more info. I will again issue words of caution to him. /Blaxthos ( t / c ) 20:28, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Seconded, Obama has had his fair share of criticism from various quarters, just like every other well-known politician. This should be reflected in the article, just as it is in practically every other article regarding a politician. To not do so simply reflects a non-NPOV attitude at this point. --64.142.82.29 (talk) 01:26, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Political Positions?

As I assume most people would, I can here looking for an enumeration of his political positions. I find it beyond strange that there is none. The closest thing I could find is the statement that he took the opposing position to Alan Keys on a number of issues. Erikmartin (talk) 17:48, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

His positions are located at Political positions of Barack Obama. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 17:54, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Parity with Hillary Clinton Wikipedia site?

I'm not a political partisan but love presidential politics - particularly during incumbency change. In that light, I see a stark distinction between the Hillary Clinton website and the Obama Wiki site (as well as other candidate sites). So, I'm wondering if there is parity between the authorship agreements between all candidate sites. My impression is that the Clinton writers crafted her Wiki site to have no edges. This quality is not the same for the Obama Wiki site, for example (IMHO). Is it possible that Wiki editors are developing the Clinton Wiki to be superior to the Obama (Edwards, Romney, McCain, and Giuliani) Wiki(s)? If you review all of the comments in all the major candidate Wiki's - one can understand the general principle of this assertion. But then again, who has time to do that aside from junkies like me ... Oxford Den (151.197.127.231 (talk) 04:23, 20 December 2007 (UTC)). (Oxfordden (talk) 19:42, 20 December 2007 (UTC))

• Well, there's no distinction between "writers" and "editors" here. What changes or improvements would you suggest? You can make them on your own, of course. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 05:01, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Jpgordon, many of the political Wiki sites have restrictions on editing. As I'm truly unfamiliar with the hierarchy of who can restrict the editing I just want to point out hte disparity. On some sites, my (well referenced) comments continue to be removed by the 'owner'. Perhaps I'll have to spend some time reading about how that works ... thanx .... OxfordDen (151.197.127.231 (talk) 13:22, 20 December 2007 (UTC)) ... (Oxfordden (talk) 19:41, 20 December 2007 (UTC))

Wikipedia does not have "owners" of articles, it's actually prohibited here. However, this article is currently semi-protected, which means IP editors (such as yourself) and new users can not currently edit the article. You are more than welcome to post suggestions on the talk page, or if you have a specific edit that you'd like to make, just post it here with an explanation of where in the article you'd like it. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 16:25, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I would make a wild guess that there are more Obama supporters here on WP than those of any other candidate. Even if this article is not "owned" it is well defended against attacks by Republicans or fans of Hillary. :-) Steve Dufour (talk) 21:01, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I just checked out Hillary Clinton article and it does seem to be better written. On the other hand, it contains far more negative information than this one. Steve Dufour (talk) 21:10, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, Hillary has been in the national public eye for a lot longer and accumulated a lot more negative things than Obama has. Not to worry, I'm sure Barack will start piling them up soon enough. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 21:16, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Then again, she is running on "experience" not "nice person-ness" :-) Steve Dufour (talk) 06:46, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

BTW Alan Keyes, although a minor candidate, has a very nice WP article and Wikiquote page. Steve Dufour (talk) 15:14, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Views on Israel

I believe that Obama's views on the USA's relationship with Israel should be mentioned. He has made a few comments, such as those detailed in this piece (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,269112,00.html) that bring his support for Israel into question. Maybe under a "Controversies" section?69.212.65.64 (talk) 19:44, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Or even better.. How about in an article called Political positions of Barack Obama in a section called Arab-Israeli conflict. Oops, already done.;) --Bobblehead ^(rants) 19:50, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Also, the term "African American" usually refers to black people who are descendants of the slaves from Africa brought to North America centuries ago. Since Barack's father is from Africa, he is half African and not half African-American. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.47.158.88 (talk) 03:31, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

African American?

The claim that Barack Obama is the only African American currently serving in the United States Senate is wrong and clearly contradicts the section on his parents. His mother is white and his father is black and thus he can only be half African American. I think it is disgraceful and racist to claim that he is African American when clearly his heritage is BOTH Caucasian AND African. This section of the article should be changed for clarity, consistence, and correctness. —Preceding unsigned comment added by LocalMoth (talk • contribs) 07:34, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

This has already been discussed here a hundred times or more. He, himself, identifies himself as an African American. One does not have to be 100% "black" or of African ancestry to be one. Steve Dufour (talk) 11:55, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Here is the intro to African American:

African Americans or black Americans are citizens or residents of the United States who have origins in any of the black racial groups of Africa.[1] In the United States the term is generally used for Americans with sub-Saharan African ancestry. Most African Americans are the descendants of captive Africans who survived slavery within the boundaries of the present United States, although some are—or are descended from—voluntary immigrants from Africa, the Caribbean, South America, or elsewhere.[2]

It sounds to me that that includes Barack since he "has origins" and "ancestry" from the "black racial groups" of "sub-Saharan Africa." Steve Dufour (talk) 12:07, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

And actually, LocalMoth, in any case he wouldn't be 'Caucasian', as that is a very specific ethnic classification for people from the Caucasus mountain region, not applicable to all so-called 'white' people (which itself is a spurious classification). Only in the United States do we use that term - and true to form we use it in utter ignorance to its actual meaning.Godheval (talk) 04:14, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

... and the WP page on Caucasian race (Oxfordden (talk) 14:32, 27 December 2007 (UTC))

Speak for yourself; my father was Nigerian and I my mother family is American. I do not consider myself an African American. I consider myself a Nigerian American. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.48.139.136 (talk) 04:48, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

"Oh well"..You can't get mad, upset and cry, just because Barak mostly acknowledges his african ancestry, not everyone wants to be considered mixed race like you, even if they are. If Barak wasnt as popular as he is, you probably would have not brought this up.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.176.194.146 (talk • contribs)

It's written somewhere that if an american has even the slightest bit of african heritage they are african american. I was sceptical of this as well, until I considered that if you had to be one hundred percent black to be considered black, every african-american in this country would be white, or almost every. Still, like it or not, it's a fact, and Barack Obama is african-american...and seeing as how there's nothing wrong with that, it isn't racist to call him such. I'll acknowledge that it isn't constructive to simply insult whoever posted this paragraph above me, however, and I think people should really just not bother with Wikipedia if they only want to argue over nothing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.14.134.22 (talk) 23:06, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I believe you are talking about the One-drop rule.--Bobblehead ^(rants) 23:28, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Barack Obama on The Today Show 12-21-07

On December 21, 2007 Barack Obama appeared on The Today Show.

That kind of thing is part of his job. However, his article can not mention everything he does. Only if he says something that other media comment on and it seems important. Steve Dufour (talk) 15:41, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Minor comment

Might be good to introduce Michelle Obama (when she's first mentioned in the text) as his wife. Something along the lines of "Obama met his future wife Michelle Robinson in 1988". I know it's in the caption, but some people might not read the caption. Also, could the caption be fleshed out a bit more? Where are they in that photo? 69.202.60.86 (talk) 23:30, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Good call. I went ahead and followed your first suggestion. I think it sounds a little more dignified for an encyclopedia article. I will check out the picture too. Steve Dufour (talk) 14:53, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Is this sentence really needed?

Of his early childhood, Obama writes: "That my father looked nothing like the people around me—that he was black as pitch, my mother white as milk—barely registered in my mind."[19]

I have the feeling that it was put in to introduce the fact that his mother was white and his father black. What Obama is saying here is the same as any child would feel. There is nothing remarkable or even interesting that it should take up space in the article. Steve Dufour (talk) 15:33, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

I see that the consensus here is that this (to me anyway) weird sentence is better than just saying what "races" his parents were. Steve Dufour (talk) 18:30, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

About Race and Culture

Note to everyone - in particular Steve Dufour - I have repeatedly removed the classifications "white" and "black" from Obama's parents for several reasons. The first is that the portion of the article in question is discussing the cultural diversity that influenced Obama's surroundings while he grew up. Race and culture are separate things. Race is a false construct created by racists to justify categorizing people in ways that do not correspond to their biological or cultural identities. But that's another and longer conversation. The point is that by simply stating that Obama's mother is American and his father Kenyan, the point of his diverse cultural background is expressed without bringing the arbitrary construction of race into the picture. There IS a difference between race and ethnicity, and ethnicity is what is relevant here. Godheval (talk) 04:14, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you that "race" is a false construct created by racists. However, in the world we live in it is considered an important thing. One of the things that Senator Obama is noted for is his background of mixed "race", not just mixed culture. People coming to this article, and some will come from outside of the USA and not know much about him, will want some information on his "racial" background. I think it is important that the article explain this right away. As I said in my edit summary (I will not edit this sentence again) the words "black" and "white" are not offensive to most people and are the simplest way to give them the information they want. Not all Kenyans are "black" (99% according to its article) and not all Americans are "white." Also, as I mentioned before I find it offensive when people say "American" and expect that to be understood as "white American." Merely saying that Senator Obama's mother was an American could create the impression that this is being said. Steve Dufour (talk) 17:09, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

I believe the races should be retained and a single word for each parent is appropriate weight and prominence. To say race is invented by racists is silly - we also group people by hair colour, but few people are prejudice against redheads. It would be one thing if it were completely immaterial, but Obama's racial background is frequently commented on as a unique characteristic among nominees past and present. Whether or not a point ought to be made of it, this has a big impact on his campaign and is necessary to mention. Dcoetzee 19:57, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. That is how I feel too. I am not going to put the words "black" and "white" back in the sentence since I have already done that 2 or 3 times. Steve Dufour (talk) 20:48, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Comment I have 3 basic objections to how the article deals with this topic now:

• It is offensive (to me anyway). It makes it look as if we are ashamed to say that his dad was black and his mom white, as if these were bad things to say.
• It doesn't serve the readers. Senator Obama is often noted for his mixed racial background. Readers, some of whom are not Americans and so are not following the news about the presidential campaign every day, want to know about this and it should be explained in a simple way, not that they have to read between the lines.
• It goes against Obama himself. He considers himself a black American, not a multi-ethnic, multi-cultural New Man.

If I am wrong please explain why to me. Thanks. Steve Dufour (talk) 13:51, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

December 2007 drop in poll numbers

Are the end of December 2007 drop in poll numbers reported by the Concord Monitor and Des Moines register of importance. the Monitoe cites a percieved unwillngness to engage Mrs, clinton or Republican rivals.Will his lining up behind President Bush on the assisantion of Mrs Bhutto, rather than charging the administration's foreign policy as a part of this an example? CApitol3 (talk) 03:17, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

These newspapers have a right to express their opinions. However the result of the caucuses is what will be notable. Steve Dufour (talk) 19:38, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

WP:SYN

Regarding this reversion, what is the "position C" that is being advanced by including both position A and position B in this article? WP:SYN says that "Editors often make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article to advance position C." Can't A and B be presented in this article without joining them together to advance position C?Ferrylodge (talk) 04:57, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Anyway, I think the problem is fixed now to everyone's satisfaction. A single source is now used to support the statement in the text of the article.Ferrylodge (talk) 05:09, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

And thank you for showing why Wikipedia does not use unreliable sources in BLPs. The source you provided was an extremely edited version of an AP article and the editing failed to expand upon why Obama was critical of the need to filibuster Alito. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 05:28, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Bobblehead, I see that you don't want to include the USA Today reference that I had inserted. I don't understand why.

May I ask you to please remove the redundant links to the US Senate cloture vote on Alito in the footnotes?

Also, you have inserted the language, "While the filibuster was unseccessful, Obama had previously predicted that the tactic would fail and criticized Democrats for making filibustering necessary by failing to convince the American public of the dangers Alito to their civil rights.[60]"

Would you please kindly correct the spelling of the word "successful"? And, shouldn't there be some sort of verb after the word "Alito"? Additionally, you say that this material is supported by the first paragraph of the article. But I don't see anything in the first paragraph of the article that says a filibuster is needed or necessary. The first paragraph of the article says, "To better oppose Supreme Court nominees, Democrats need to convince the public 'their values are at stake' rather than use stalling tactics, said Sen. Barack Obama, who opposes Samuel Alito's confirmation." Thus, he said that convincing the public is needed, not that filibusters are needed.Ferrylodge (talk) 05:45, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Explained on your talkpage. [1] --Bobblehead ^(rants) 05:47, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

No, it is not, but I invite you to explain, either here or at my talk page.Ferrylodge (talk) 05:54, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

But for further explanation, all three sources are edited versions of the same AP article, with the Sun-Times article seeming to do the better job of explaining what Obama is saying, including quotes from Obama that expand upon why he thinks the filibuster is necessary for Alito and why the need to filibuster Alito is a failure by the Democrats to explain why Alito is "A Bad Thing^{TM</sup)". His comments about "winning elections" is a minor part of that explanation and is more an explanation of how Democrats can avoid filibustering SCOTUS nominations in the future. --Bobblehead (rants) 06:00, 28 December 2007 (UTC)}

Would you please correct the spelling and the subject-predicate disagreement, and delete the redundant link to the roll call vote? And where does the Sun-Times article say one word about a filibuster being "needed" or "necessary"? The first paragraph says that convincing the public is needed or necessary. It does not say that filibusters are needed or necessary. Quite the contrary: the article says Obama "agreed [with Biden] that it was not particularly wise" to conduct a filibuster.Ferrylodge (talk) 06:06, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for making some of the corrections I suggested. I have taken the liberty of correcting the spelling. Where does the Sun-Times article say one word about a filibuster being "needed" or "necessary"? The first paragraph says that convincing the public is needed or necessary. It does not say that filibusters are needed or necessary. Quite the contrary: the article says Obama "agreed [with Biden] that it was not particularly wise" to conduct a filibuster.Ferrylodge (talk) 06:29, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Bobblehead, I see that you've reworded the thing again.[2] I appreciate that you're putting effort into this. Thanks. The material in the article now seems to be accurate. However, I think it's verbose, and it perhaps unintentionally is written in a POV way. Allow me to explain. First, I don’t know why you need both Obama quotes, when either of them gets the message across (the first being shorter), so it seems like verbosity could be considerably reduced here. Second, nothing that you’ve written includes any hint that Obama criticized the filibuster tactic (that criticism, after all, was the main message that USA Today got from the article). The Sun-Times version of the article (which you seem to prefer) says that Obama agreed with Biden that the filibuster was a “stalling tactic”, and “that it was not particularly wise,” but your sentences give no hint that Obama criticized the tactic. How come? Can't we say that he criticized the tactic?Ferrylodge (talk) 06:58, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Added that he criticized Dems for an over-reliance upon procedural maneuvers as requested. The reword with the second, more verbose quote was a result of your rephrasing[3] and an attempt to incorporate it into a more accurate explanation as to what Obama was saying, but if you no longer want to incorporate the "win elections" bit, I can remove that. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 07:31, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Please don't keep the second, more verbose quote on my account.Ferrylodge (talk) 07:39, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I removed the paragraph. I doubt the WP:SYN and WP:OR problems can be fixed in just two sentences, and Obama's position on a procedural tactic seems to be undue weight here. In a longer sub article about Obama's U.S. Senate career, inclusion of his views on notable confirmations and filibusters might be warranted. --HailFire (talk) 11:50, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. First of all, this was not merely a "notable confirmation." It was the confirmation of a U.S. Supreme Court Justice, and Senator Obama supported a filibuster of that nomination. It's doubtful that a United States Senator can do anything more momentous than try to block a Senate majority from confirming a President's nominee to the highest court in the land. HailFire, you reverted here. I urge you to please reconsider. That paragraph was phrased by Bobblehead, who seems to be as sensitive to WP:SYN and WP:OR as anyone on Earth. If you want to say that the paragraph contained WP:SYN or WP:OR, then I think you should put together an argument to back up your assertion. Thanks in advance.Ferrylodge (talk) 02:59, 31 December 2007 (UTC) Apparently, there will be no response, so I have used strikethrough.Ferrylodge (talk) 13:04, 2 January 2008 (UTC) Absent the requested explanation, I plan to reinsert what Bobblehead wrote.Ferrylodge (talk) 20:33, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Trying this. Peace, Ferrylodge. --HailFire (talk) 15:38, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Authored?

I think this has been brought up before, however:

He has authored two bestselling books...

This makes it sound like he did not really write them. I would guess that Herman Melville's article says that he wrote Moby Dick, not that he authored it. Steve Dufour (talk) 19:35, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

It's pretty widely-used wording on Wikipedia, Steve. Tvoz |talk 19:39, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Sadly. Steve Dufour (talk) 19:41, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Warning: Tirade I really feel that Senator Obama, who wants to be seen as an ordinary American who is working for the best interests of everyone in the country, and the potential readers of this article, who want to find out some basic information about him, would be better served if it was written in the plain, simple English language which most of us use. Without words like "authored" and "majority-minority". Thanks. I feel better now. :-) Steve Dufour (talk) 19:46, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Steve, is "authored" really a difficult word to understand? If you'll look back, you'll see you agreed in January that it was better than what we had previously as a heading, and it seems quite direct and clear to me, especially for a heading, but I myself don't have a problem with changing the first sentence in that section to "written", leaving "Books authored" as the header - but maybe others had a reason for that wording -we'll see. As for your other changes - I disagree as follows: we say (and properly wikilink) in the intro to just "Honolulu" because a few words later we say and link to Hawaii - your way is unnecessarily redundant; to say his father was "born into the Luo people" is very odd wording which doesn't seem preferable to referring to his father as Luo in context below as we have had it for a long time; "majority-minority" may not be instantly understood, but that's why it is wiki-linked, and it is an important concept that adds more valuable information than the tired "ethnically diverse" which doesn't add anything beyond the previous sentence's "culturally diverse" and is repetitive, too, with "multi-ethnic" a few words later in reference to Jakarta; similarly your removal of "describes his experiences growing up in his mother's middle class American family" leaving "Obama wrote about his experiences" takes away information that adds to our understanding and leaves a rather bland useless sentence - what else is a memoir other than writing about one's experiences?; taking out the reference to his father as "absent" removes important information and that's where the Luo mention makes sense. I just don't see that these changes improve the article at all, and in fact they seem to remove valuable information for no clear reason, so I've reinstated. Tvoz |talk 21:03, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

No, "authored" is not hard to understand it just makes a person sound like a geek to use it. "Honolulu, Hawaii" reminds people that he was born an American citizen. "Majority-minority" I discussed below. "His mother's middle class American family" sounds like a coded message saying he is not really an African American. His father's absence is already explained so it doesn't have to be said again. Besides that how do we know that he didn't remember his father from 2 years old? My daughter has memories from her third birthday. Steve Dufour (talk) 04:32, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

(ec)Unfortunately, encyclopedias are rarely written in simple English, but rather in an English that requires one to read the encyclopedia with a dictionary next to you. That's why there is a Simple English Wikipedia. Granted, many of the articles on the Simple English Wikipedia are lacking. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 21:08, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I have the World Book Encyclopedia on my computer and it is written in ordinary English (although for younger readers). Some subjects are more technical and require technical language. However a discussion of Obama's personal life is something anyone can relate to and there is no need for any special jargon there.Steve Dufour (talk) 04:25, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Just a thought, on the ethnicity of his father perhaps it could be worked into the first sentence something like this "(a Luo born in Nyanza Province, Kenya)"? Waiting until later to use the term Luo is a bit confusing because it isn't clear which father the term is in reference to, so by clarifying that Obama, Sr. is the Luo that confusion is rectified. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 21:25, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, I don't know - Soetero isn't referred to as his father or even stepfather anywhere in the article - the only "father", his father, is Obama Sr. It says he talks about his "absent Luo father" which is wikilinked and is fully explained in the footnote (now 17) at the end of that sentence, so is it really needed again a paragraph above? I don't feel strongly about this, but don't really see the need. Tvoz |talk 21:54, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Do whatever you like. Hillary would probably make a better president anyway. (Said to blow off steam only. :-) ) Steve Dufour (talk) 04:17, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

But you changed it anyway. Tvoz |talk 02:47, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I changed my mind. Now I like Obama better. :-) Steve Dufour (talk) 05:01, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Strange comments from someone who claims to be a Republican Paisan30 (talk) 05:11, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

"Claim" is a "WP word to avoid." :-) If the Republicans decide to nominate someone I might vote for him. But realistically it looks like whoever wins the Democratic nomination will be the next president. (I am predicting it will be Hillary because from what I have seen here her supporters are really smart or else Obama's are really stupid. ;-) )Steve Dufour (talk) 05:18, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Majority-minority

For many years I have known that in Hawaii white people are in the minority and that is cool with me. However, I find the term "majority-minority" a bit offensive. Since this is said as if it was a good thing what is really being said is the white people are no good and society would be better off with fewer of them. (Side note to Obama supporters, others please skip White people make up most of the people who will be voting in the primaries in the next few weeks. Close side note) Thanks for your consideration of this point. Steve Dufour (talk) 04:08, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree on your basic point. Takes me back to undergrad sociology class. I don't find the term offensive but (in this context) a bit arrogant and out of place. I certainly have not seen the established relevance. We could also say the (Island of Hawaii) or (Tropical Hawaii) or even (the non-contiguous state of Hawaii). I don't see the relevance to Obama's introduction. Turtlescrubber (talk) 04:22, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Trying this. --HailFire (talk) 11:56, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Barack and Michelle Obama image

The caption that was used with this photo was inadequate. Where and when was the photo taken? How does it illustrate relevant material in the adjoining text? Perhaps more to the point: there is a hangdog quality to this image that makes it unlike any other photo of Obama and his wife that I have ever seen. That also makes it a curious addition to this article which seems otherwise well-illustrated. For these reasons, I've removed it. Please discuss here before reverting, stating reasons for its relevance and notability in illustrating the adjoining section text. Thanks. --HailFire (talk) 10:31, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I think the article should have a picture of Michelle Obama, since she is discussed in the text; and of course is very important to Senator Obama. I agree that this is not such a great picture. I will try to find a better one which is in the public domain. There were none on Senator Obama's site.Steve Dufour (talk) 10:48, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

"His mother's American middle class family"?

I find something a little odd about this sentence:

In the memoir, Obama describes his experiences growing up in his mother's American middle class family.

In the first two years of his life his Kenyan father was in the home. Then for four years he and his mom lived in Indonesia with her Indonesian husband. Then he lived with his grandparents in Hawaii. Do you think the expression "his mother's American middle class family" is the right way to describe all this? Steve Dufour (talk) 10:55, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I removed the expression, merging two sentences. I raised 2 kids and I know that a father has a great influence from the start. Steve Dufour (talk) 01:35, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Steve, that's your OR and irrelevant to this. No one came in to agree with this change that you've been pushing - you're missing the point of the section which talks about a particular aspect of his upbringing. There's de facto consensus on this because it has stood for a long time and you have no support, so please don't make changes that you have no agreement on, when there have been objections to them. If consensus changes there's time enough to make a change, but your saying it over and over doesn't equal consensus. And didn't we talk about this yesterday or the day before? Thank you. Tvoz |talk 02:47, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I think I have been the main one talking. :-) Once again, when we say "his mother's American middle class family" that sounds like his father had little or no influence on him as a child. I used myself as an example to explain one reason I think this is not so. I am sorry if that is considered OR. Steve Dufour (talk) 04:47, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Didn't mean to sound harsh Steve. The fact is, as he reports it, his father was absent and he learned about him from his mother's family. Read his book. The father was gone and didn't influence him - he was only two years old when he left. That is very young Steve. I have kids too, and of course a father has great influence but if he's gone by age 2 there is a very good chance that he's not remembered first hand at all. But we don't have to speculate - these are his own words. He should know.Tvoz |talk 06:15, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Find a quote where he says "my mother's middle class family." Steve Dufour (talk) 12:47, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

[undent] Page 46, Dreams from My Father, 2004 edition. It isn't a precise quote of "my mother's middle class family" (Obama hyphenates "middle-class"), but the idea is the same. I'm not reproducing the text here because it's better read in context, with the rest of the book, or at least the other 126 pages of Part 1. Peace? --HailFire (talk) 17:34, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I stand corrected on that. I still think his father and step father should not be excluded, even if they were not as important influences to him as his mother. Steve Dufour (talk) 05:20, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

BLP board

I've reported some of my concerns with this article on the Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard#Barack Obama and Michelle Obama. Steve Dufour (talk) 11:43, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Chicago's Southside

The southern half of the city of Chicago, where Obama chose to live after living in Hawaii and California, is well known as being one of the largest African American communities in the United States. I personally think this is an important fact. Could it be mentioned in the article? Thanks. Steve Dufour (talk) 16:00, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I am taking a break from editing the article itself for a while. But here is a quote from the National Review New Republic article cited about his move to Chicago. Could some of this information be included in the article?

After these itinerant years, he would finally be able to insinuate himself into a community--and not just any community, but, as he later put it, "the capital of the African American community in the country." Every strain of black political thought seemed to converge in Chicago in the 1980s. It was the intellectual center of black nationalism, the base both for Jesse Jackson's presidential campaigns and for Louis Farrakhan's Nation of Islam. Moreover, on the eve of Obama's arrival, Harold Washington had overthrown Richard J. Daley's white ethnic machine to become the city's first black mayor. It was, in short, an ideal place for an identity-starved Kenyan Kansan to immerse himself in a more typical black American experience.Steve Dufour (talk) 05:15, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

What's an important fact - that he lives in a black neighborhood? I don't know about anyone else, but I am not at all comfortable with quoting from this National Review opinion piece - it does not read as a researched, neutral source should, which is not exactly surprising given their POV. "Insinuate himself"? Invoking Farrakhan and black nationalism? And your premise is not quite right anyway - he didn't go from Hawaii and California to Chicago - he lived in NY before moving to Chicago and if it were something we would consider including we would need sources that explained why he moved there, not a Conservative Republican publication's theory about it. Tvoz |talk 07:23, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

My bad. The article was in the New Republic not the National Review. I have lived in California and Chicago and have visited New York and Hawaii. My reason for contrasting Chicago with Hawaii and California was based on the places' climates, however New York in also usually considered a more desirable place to live than Chicago as well so it could be added to the list. I am not suggesting the article name a reason for his choosing to live in the Southside of Chicago, just mention the fact that it is an important African American community. Steve Dufour (talk) 12:41, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Steve, what is your fascination with mentioning that Obama is black at every opportunity? --Bobblehead ^(rants) 19:45, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

That is something that is very important to him. If Senator Obama was here I am confident that he would agree with me. BTW. He will not get any white people to vote for him by denying that he is black. On the other hand he would lose lots of black votes, and that would give white liberals permission to not vote for him as well. That's how I see it anyway. Steve Dufour (talk) 05:17, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Who is denying he is black? Steve, you've been on this train for a year at least and it's time to get off. Please stop - you've made your point and it's not getting any traction, because it is wrong. Happy new year. Tvoz |talk 06:46, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Many people in the country at large are denying he is black, or African American. Some are mentioned in the article. Thanks for the Happy New Year. You as well. Steve Dufour (talk) 14:45, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Multi-ethnic Indonesian capital city?

I find this phrase in the introduction a bit odd: "multi-ethnic Indonesian capital city of Jakarta". Jakarta is one of the least diverse capitals in the world. Most Indonesians have never even seen a black person.

The only real ethnic minority in Indonesia is the Chinese. There has not been any other significant immigration to Indonesia over the years, just a few expats working for multinationals. 82.31.164.67 (talk) 20:37, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I thought it might be useful to bring a copy of the Jakarta infobox over here to help inform subsequent discussion. --HailFire (talk) 21:44, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

That is 6% Chinese, 94% Indonesian. Not my definition of multi-ethnic.

You are of course encouraged to write a long essay on the differences between Batak [4], Sundanese [5], and Minangkabu [6], but for anyone reading this article, to imply that a black man is anything other than an extreme oddity in Indonesia is very misleading. Even white people (more common due to tourism and business) are liable to shouts of bulé (whitey) anywhere outside of the wealthiest areas. 82.31.164.67 (talk) 22:52, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I removed the expression. I don't know much about Indonesia and from the sentence I assumed Jakarta was a multi-national, cosmopolitan city. Steve Dufour (talk) 01:33, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

It seems to have been reverted, as a side-effect I think of another edit. 82.31.164.67 (talk) 01:12, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for mentioning it. I'm not editing the article right now. I expect that Barack will become the next president regardless of what WP says about the ethnic mix in Indonesia. :-) Steve Dufour (talk) 15:42, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

"Absent Luo father"?

It seems kind of odd to introduce his dad's ethnic group in the sentence that says he was absent. I tried before to move the information to the first introduction of the dad. I guess my choice of wording wasn't so great and it was moved back. However, I really think that is where the info belongs, if it is needed at all. Steve Dufour (talk) 01:30, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I think it would be helpful to keep the discussion in one place rather than starting a new section every time the same point is made, as if it hadn't already been discussed in the last 2 days. Tvoz |talk 02:47, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Then please explain your reasons for putting "Luo" and "absent" next to each other rather than telling the readers what the father's ethnic group is when he is first introduced. If the word Luo is left out altogether I would not object, although it is somewhat interesting. Steve Dufour (talk) 04:43, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I think it's fine. It denotes that the "absences" refers to his birth father, not to the Indonesian man who married his mother. Paisan30 (talk) 04:59, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

To me it sounds like "absent" is an insult and putting "Luo" next to it makes that sound like an insult too. Steve Dufour (talk) 05:12, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

His father was absent. He was Luo. The text and footnote explain it clearly. You're reading in things that aren't there. This is a non-issue. Tvoz |talk 05:21, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I can't imagine reading either or both of those words as an insult. Paisan30 (talk) 05:32, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I would consider being an absent father a bad thing. I have no opinion about a Luo father however. Steve Dufour (talk) 05:57, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

But he was absent! Tvoz |talk 06:28, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

But his being absent had nothing to do with his being Luo, unless you want the article to imply that it did. Steve Dufour (talk) 12:43, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

In that case, one could argue that his being absent had nothing to do with his being a father. How silly. Paisan30 (talk) 01:12, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it's silly. Steve Dufour (talk) 17:23, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

[undent] Better like this? --HailFire (talk) 15:44, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Languages

Does he still speak Indonesian? If so, then it should be mentioned that he is multi-languel. What about Hawaiian language? Chaldean (talk) 03:46, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion (not that that counts for much around here :-) ) that would be a good idea if a source could be found that gives the info. Steve Dufour (talk) 04:49, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes he does [source Parnohadiningrat Sudjadnan, Indonesian Ambassador to the US Time Magazine: http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1695803,00.html]. He is quite popular with Indonesians. He went to a school where he was taught in Indonesian. [7]

I have added the ambassador's quote. Joshdboz (talk) 19:56, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

"It gave me an enormous appreciation for the magnificent culture and history of Asia. It gave me a great love for the people of Asia". Obama describes Indonesia as "a charged and challenging place" where "my vision had been permanently altered". He writes of having needed less than half a year as a child to become acquainted with Indonesia's language, customs and legends. He lovingly describes the pleasures of his pet ape, his first exposure to the country's "monkey god" deity and his membership in an Indonesian boy scout troop. He also writes in Dreams From My Father of his introduction to the exotic delicacies of snake meat and roasted grasshopper.

He also mentioned eating dog meat, which is somewhat popular in Indonesia. His step-father was an Indonesian man who practised Abangan Islam (essentially a blend of traditional animism and Islam). Dogs are haram (forbidden) in Islam, to touch or to own, but a somewhat loose line is taken in traditional Javanese culture on such matters (also on alcohol, which is generally freely consumed). Modern Indonesia is becoming steadily more fundamentalist due to the power of wealthy Wahaabist Saudis and their media influence. In the 60s and 70s Indonesia was extremely liberal as their own interpretation of Islam had been developed over hundreds of years. See the Vespa Girls of the 70s. [8] compared to today. The influence of Christians in high finance and so on in Jakarta is also reduced compared to that era. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.114.226.173 (talk) 13:39, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Placement of only African American Senator fact

The second sentence of the article now reads:

He is the fifth African American Senator in U.S. history, and the only African American currently serving in the U.S. Senate.

Is this really important enough to be the second sentence in the article. The first sentence already told us that he is a Senator. How about moving this sentence down the page to the section on his election to the Senate?

Another point is that, in my opinion anyway, the introduction to an article should, if possible, only contain statements that no one could disagree with. That way you project a feeling of neutrality and avoid getting people hostile. Steve Dufour (talk) 15:06, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think anyone would disagree that he's the fifth African-American and the only one serving currently. These facts have been in the intro since his election to the Senate, so I think it's OK. Paisan30 (talk) 16:38, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Here is my idea (and please note that I am no longer making changes to the article itself):

Barack Hussein Obama (pronounced /bəˈrɑːk huːˈseɪn oʊˈbɑːmə/[1]) (born August 4, 1961) is the junior United States Senator from Illinois and a leading candidate for the Democratic nomination in the 2008 presidential election.[2][3] He is the fifth African American Senator in U.S. history, and the only African American currently serving in the U.S. Senate.[4]

Born in Honolulu to a black Kenyan father and a white American mother, Obama considers himself an African American. He grew up in culturally diverse surroundings....

No one would disagree with these statements and his racial background is explained as well as his African American-ness introduced. The statement about his being the first African American Senator could be put back right after his election victory in the Senate race is mentioned. Steve Dufour (talk) 17:18, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I prefer the current construct. Steve's proposal seems oddly worded to me and seems to be creating an issue of his "African-Americanness" that is really only supported by small percentage of people. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 20:48, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Bobblehead. Tvoz |talk 00:27, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry if there was any misunderstanding. I think the article as it is is a good Wikipedia article. Thanks to the regulars for their hard work on it. Steve Dufour (talk) 22:50, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Cut down Keynote section

I would propose sharply cutting down on the size of the section on Obama's keynote address to the 2004 Democratic Convention. As it stands now there are 3 rather large block quotes which do not play much of a role. Certainly the speech is important enough in Obama's career trajectory to merit a section, but the size of this article is already pushing the limits, and there is plenty of non-critical/not-very-relevant information here. I think a concise summary can cover most of the speech with several sentences on its aftermath. Joshdboz (talk) 20:09, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure about this - seems to me it's a defining moment, similar perhaps in weight to the space section in JFK, although I do see your point. Let's se what others think. Tvoz |talk 20:30, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't at all want to minimize the importance of this event. But the first two block quotes really aren't that defining in terms of the aftermath -> political importance of the speech, whereas the last quote is. Joshdboz (talk) 20:35, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Iowa

Obama has won the Iowa caucus; is this too newsy, or should it go in the page somewhere? 71.191.37.246 (talk) 03:09, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

It's in the presidential campaign section. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 04:29, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

He is the first African-American to win the first in the nation Iowa caucus. That is something significantly historic considering Iowa is 95% white that might be worthy of being placed in the beginning. (Saj29 (talk) 00:21, 5 January 2008 (UTC))

Pronunciation -- Audio

It would be nice if an American native would make a recording of the pronunciation of his name (like in Søren Kirkegaard), thanks. (Yes; I know there is a non-free recording here, but that's not Wikipedia's game) --Morten LJ (talk) 07:29, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Why do we even need a pronounciation? None of the other candidates have one (and it's not like there isn't opportunity to hear his name pronounced in the media). --Loonymonkey (talk) 16:29, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm thinking a pronunciation would be a good thing. Relying upon the media to correctly pronounce an "unusual" name like Barack Obama will only get one in trouble. I watched too much news coverage of the Iowa caucuses last night and I heard his name pronounced three or four different ways. Not to mention this is an encyclopedia and we shouldn't be reliant upon the media to take care of content for us. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 17:18, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Agree, and could they spell it right too? --HailFire (talk) 17:29, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

biased statement on tax cuts

In the third paragraph of the political advocacy section, it states that he supports "repeal tax cuts for the wealthiest 1 percent of Americans..." I don't think there was any tax bill that explicitly cut taxes based on net worth as compared to the other 99% of Americans. Similarly, his bill won't say, "If you are among the wealthiest 1 percent of Americans, your tax cuts are hereby repealed."

In fact, the federal tax system doesn't tax wealth at all, they tax income.

A better way to phrase this would be "repeal Bush's tax cuts on long term capital gains and dividend income" or "repeal Bush's 2003 income tax cuts" or even "repeal the Bush tax cuts"

Dougiec29 (talk) 17:47, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

His father

First of all, I believe Barack Obama, Sr. deserves an article of his own as his son has a very good chance of becoming the leader of the free world. Since currently there is no article about this man, the Barack Obama, Jr. article doesn't explain what happened to his father... that he died in a car accident. I believe his dad dying in a car accident is noteworthy and belongs in the article. I don't know where in the article it fits in best though.

Also shouldn't his full name be Barack Hussein Obama, Jr. instead of just Barack Hussein Obama. In its present form the article leaves out the Jr. --Tocino 21:44, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

On their own, neither Barack Obama, Sr., nor Ann Dunham are notable enough to have their own articles. If all one did was be the parent of a potential (or current) president, that's not notable enough to get an article. This article already covers the notable aspects of both of Obama's parents, including that his father died in a car accident, see footnote 12, the death of his step-father, see footnote 13, and the death of his mother, included in the main text. As far as including Jr. is concerned. Barack seems to be following the model of if the Senior dies, then you drop the Jr. from your name (or if you named a son the same, you become Senior and your son becomes Junior). There aren't any official references of his name with Jr. at the end. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 22:08, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

African-American?

I have a problem with the qualification of Obama as 'African-American' as put in the header of this article, with a white mother and a father from Africa he's just as much African-American as he is not. He should be qualified either as half-caucasian/half-African-American (both equal parts represented equally) or just as black (since that is the colour of his skin - which is what people are hinting at by saying 'African-American'). --194.81.255.25 (talk) 21:49, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Whatever your personal views, Obama is African-American. What we may believe about him doesn't matter that much. All that really matters is what we can verify with reliable sources. Thus, the wording should stay. Bellwether ^B_C 21:56, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

What we do know is that he was born in the United States as an American citizen, that his father was a black African, that he calls himself an African American, that the U.S. Senate calls him an African American; that sounds like an African American to me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Steve Dufour (talk • contribs) 00:51, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

• Again, it's not about what's true, but what's verifiable. He is referred to as an "African-American" in countless reliable sources, so that's how he is referred to in the article. The synthesizing of "we know X and thus Y" and all of that is original research, and does not belong in articles space. Bellwether ^B_C 01:22, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

As much the "Third" as the "Fifth", and Fifth is misleading

The United States has only elected three black Senators. More than a hundred years ago, two others were appointed (not elected) for less than one term each, both Reconstruction, northern occupation of southern states. Neither state would have done so voluntarilly. How it reads, we might assume we've actually elected five, or even appointed/elected five voluntarilly, but we have not. This is so different from the relevance (the degree to which America has or has not embraced black Senators and Obama's role in that) as to be unnecesarilly confusing. A better sentence would read:

"He is the third African American to be elected Senator in U.S. history, and the only African American currently serving in the U.S. Senate."

Can someone edit? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Forwarder (talk • contribs) 22:18, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I added that he was the third popularly elected senator, but left that he was the fifth to serve. Regardless of how the first two African Americans made it into the Senate, they still count. Just like the first woman to serve in the Senate, Rebecca Latimer Felton, counts despite having been appointed and only serving two days. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 22:46, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

• Should we change the wording on all senators who served prior to 1913? Before that time, the senate was not popularly elected at all. It was United_States_Senate#History selected by the state legislatures. Obama is the fifth African-American senator, nothing more and nothing less. Bellwether ^B_C 01:26, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Of course they count, if somebody were to phrase their question: "How many have served?" But people are just as likely to ask "How many African Americans have been elected to the Senate?" And I think, of the two ways, the sentence that does not count the forced appointments of Reconstruction (unless both are mentioned) is more to the point of how Obama's success reflects historical race relations and politics in the U.S.

By the way, "popularly" is not necessary. The Reconstruction folks were appointed by state legislators, not an election, and we use "election" other places so we must be assuming people know that it generally means popularly elected.