Talk:Nissan GT-R

Car classification

There is really no dispute about whether this is a supercar, and I have yet to see any legitimate source quoted to dispute this.Sepiraph 15:14, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

There seems to be some debate here as to whether or not the GT-R should be referred to as a supercar. Willirennen has pointed to Talk:Supercar saying it would explain. I don't have time to read it all, but I didn't see anything particularly enlightening when skimming over. Personally, I think it's better to rely on the sources for accurate classification rather than leave it to the discretion of editors here. Nissan and Edmunds Inside Line both refer to it as a supercar, so unless there is a reliable source to dispute this, I see no reason to change it.~ Dusk Knight 17:56, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

The one bit that won't support your claim that it is a supercar is the Japanese wikipage refer the car as sportscar/GT (スポーツカー･GT), plus wasn't a while ago, at its development period, that car was referred to as a Porsche 911 Turbo competitor as numerous magazines claimed.

Plus, the supercar article will tell you that the automotive press frequently apply the term to any new exotic cars as supercars. The "similar to" bit, as it lists the Porsche 911 Turbo, Chevrolet Corvette and the Audi R8 as its competitors, which none of these are at all supercars. That Japanese page also lists the same cars.

Also, from my personal experience, numerous shows and event use the word Supercar, even many of these cars are not classified as one and that is to draw crowds into these events, plus the Supercar Run batch of the Goodwood Festival of Speed event has cars that people question over such as the Bentley Continental GT and Ferrari F430 which they had in the past. Any questions, should be referred to WP:CARS.

Willirennen (talk) 18:40, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

PS, I said read the article, not the talk page, in this case a bit in the talk page will tell you somewhere at the bottom, that a long time ago there was a supercar list but that has been AFDed because editors cannot stop squabbling over what is and what isn't, therefore it had to go in order to keep the peace and I support that and please don't turn this into another "Wiki Civil War".

I did read the article as well. The part that says "The proper application of the term is subjective and disputed, especially among enthusiasts" makes it clear to me that this should not be left to the discretion of editors (including you, me, and those on the Japanese Wikipedia). So, my point is there are countless sources verifying the classification even if the "truth" is questionable (see Wikipedia:Verifiability). In the end, I don't care how it's classified so long as it's verified by reliable sources, as all information here should be. If you have a reliable source giving us a more accurate classification, then, by all means, use it to correct the article.~ Dusk Knight 19:26, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

But what of other sources that refer to it as a sports car, like Sport Compact Car Magazine, where they say, "Like all the best sports cars (think Porsche 911, Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution, Ford GT40), the Skyline earned its accolades in motorsport..." —Mr. Grim Reaper at 20:43, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

You do raise a good point. Sources can be inconsistent. However, the article you link to does refer to it as "Nissan's Supercar" near the top. This is the only classification I've seen Nissan give. If we don't trust Nissan and automotive sources to correctly classify the car, what criteria should be used? As for what has been suggested, the Japanese Wikipedia article is poorly sourced compared to this one, and other Wikipedia articles are never acceptable sources for facts. Also, the supercar article is correctly full of phrases like "usually", "many supercars", "most supercars", and "supercars, by the usual definition..." making any calculation from this article too subjective to be reliable.~ Dusk Knight 16:51, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

The thing is, Nissan could be glorifying it a little too much, and Edmunds refers to the Corvette Z06 as a supercar. Now, sure, it's a reliable source, but who in their right mind calls it a supercar? I know Wikipedia is based on sources, but meh, I'd hate to have to call it a supercar. We could keep at is a supercar/sportscar, and note that it is referred to as both. Also, here are some reliable sources that refer to it as either one, so we can make a "tally" of sort.

• Loh, Edward. "First Look: 2008 Nissan GT-R". Motor Trend. Retrieved 2007-11-26. Referred to as both a "super sports car" and as a supercar.
• Chang-Ran Kim (2007-10-24). "AUTOSHOW-Nissan hopes GT-R sports car will boost sales". Reuters. Retrieved 2007-11-26. Referred to as a sports car.
• Carney, Dan. "Nissan faces uphill drive with new sports car". msnbc.com. Retrieved 2007-11-26. Referred to as a sports car and a "supercar."
• Mitani, Sam (2007). "2009 Nissan GT-R Exposed". Road and Track. Retrieved 2007-11-26. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help) Referred to as a sports car.

—Mr. Grim Reaper at 23:36, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Seems everyone has their own opinion about what makes a supercar. I guess that's reason enough to avoid the term. It's fine with me if you want to change it. It's probably more neutral to call it sports car, say Nissan and the press frequently refer to it as a supercar, and let the readers decide for themselves.~ Dusk Knight 02:11, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree, sports car is more general, and safer to use, at least for some time. I don't think the term supercar should be used unless it's blindly obvious, e.g. Bugatti Veyron or McLaren F1. —Mr. Grim Reaper at 02:40, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

That is what I wanted to point out, I agree with the sportscar bit being suitable as there will be less issues compated with other classifications such as Supercar, Grand Tourer, considering almost every sportcars generally are as they have all the luxuries a saloon cars have to suit the demands of the public or sports saloon, as this is what it is considering the Skyline precessor, as a homologation touring car racer, literally is like the original BMW M3 and Ford Sierra RS Cosworth. Willirennen (talk) 21:23, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

7:40 SLR McLaren,Class Supercar/grand http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_SLR_McLaren 7:40 Bugatti Veyron,Class Supercar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugatti_Veyron 7:42 Ford_GT,Class Supercar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_GT 7:43 Lamborghini_Murcielago,Class Supercar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamborghini_Murcielago The class change of GT-R consents if these slow cars also change to the sports car. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikiarrangementeditor (talk • contribs) 23:03, 30 November 2007

Why is that? All of those are commonly agreed and found to be referred to as supercars by sources, whereas the GT-R is conflicting referred to as both, in which we have decided to classify it in the article as a sports car, as it is more general, and we note that it's status as a supercar is disputed. —Mr. Grim Reaper at 04:40, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

In general, a car that is faster than a supercar is a definition of supercar.It is more mysterious that a supercar that is slower than the sports car exists in the world.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikiarrangementeditor (talk • contribs) 05:53, 1 December 2007

Dusk Knight,You forcibly published a suspected slick tire though grounds were thin. I presented as many as four evidences and objected. You are supporting a Anti Insistence. It is the same also of the problem of the class change. My insistence will be able to be overturned? My insistence must be thorough fairness and objectivity. If so, shut up.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikiarrangementeditor (talk • contribs) 23:41, 1 December 2007

I have no idea what you are trying to say, so I can't respond to whatever concerns you may have. I can tell you that your problem won't be resolved by constantly reverting the article.~ Dusk Knight 01:42, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

It has now been agreed that the GT-R is classed as sports car, as this is more universal, until NCAP or somebody like who is not a magazine will class it as a supercar, the sportscar classification is there to stay. Plus, as I said, if Nissan is going to sell as much or more GT-Rs, than Porsche could sell their 911 Turbo, then the sportscar tag is right for them. Also as this applies to Wikiarrangementeditor, can you next time sign your username after you contribute to this talk section in future, just to give you a quick instruction, below that save button, there is a sign your username thing, this is where you have to press after signing your discussion. Willirennen 02:32, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

An unfair edit is not admitted!Please edit the car that calls a super-car though it is slower than GT-R at the same time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikiarrangementeditor (talk • contribs) 02:47, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Wikiarrangementeditor, you seem to misunderstand. The article was not changed to say the GT-R is not a supercar. It was changed to say use of the term is disputed. Just because it says sports car that doesn't mean that it isn't (or is) a supercar. The reader can decide. The term is not disputed for those other cars you mentioned so there is no need to change those articles. Besides, those cars are faster, more expensive, more exclusive, etc. If the GT-R was faster around the Nurburgring, it doesn't necessarily mean anything except that Nissan used better drivers.~ Dusk Knight 03:20, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Everyone please remember that you're arguing over a "classification" which has NO real world impact and no real meaning. Whether we call the car a "sports car" or a "supercar" doesn't cause the car to go any faster.. the classification has no impact on the actual car itself.

On wikipedia, it shouldn't be necessary to use words such as "supercar" to indicate how good a car is. Rather, the facts surrounding the car should paint the picture for the readers. Thus, rather than saying "The GT-R is a supercar by Nissan..." we should be able to say "The GT-R is a car by Nissan which does 0-100 in x seconds, the 1/4 in x seconds, and various lap times in x seconds". This information alone should allow the reader to say either "wow this is GT-R is a supercar!" or "nice sports car".

In the interest of conservatism, I think It'd be best to say, if anything, "the gt-r has often been referred to as a supercar in the media" or something like that. At the end of the day, however, this is barely worth the edit war. Hugzz 03:26, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Please if you want to restrict me.The edit to lack fairness and objectivity cannot be never missed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikiarrangementeditor (talk • contribs) 03:45, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Class of SLR McLaren is two marks named Supercar/Grand tourer. Two marks are sure not to have the problem by GT-R either. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikiarrangementeditor (talk • contribs) 03:56, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Are you using a translator? Because it is hard to understand what you are trying to say. However, the majority of us have agreed that the GT-R should be classified as a sports car, rather than a supercar (of which we are noting anyway.) Just drop it. And please for the love of God, sign you comments by typing "~~~~" after whatever you write here on the talk page. —Mr. Grim Reaper at 04:08, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes.translator is used.Such statistics for which it is unfair and the number of people is insufficient are invalid though it was said that it had decided it to Suportscar by the vote. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikiarrangementeditor (talk • contribs) 04:32, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand what you're trying to say. —Mr. Grim Reaper at 04:08, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

This user has now been reported to WP:AN3, since I'm writing this on Explorer rather than Firefox which i am used to, I don't know if I have handled the complaint procedure correctly. Willirennen 04:44, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Cannot the nuance be understood?"Class of SLR McLaren is two marks named Supercar/Grand tourer."The description of SLR doesn't have the problem. Why is it a problem in GT-R? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikiarrangementeditor (talk • contribs) 04:54, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

That Japanese page said sportscar/GT (スポーツカー･GT), not supercar/GT. Willirennen 12:04, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Just because it's found on another article doesn't make it right for this one. —Mr. Grim Reaper at 16:29, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

In wiki of Japan, it was corrected to a supercar by the sports car. "日産自動車が製造・販売する予定のスーパーカー･GTカーである"(supercar/GT). And, the Wiki edit was notified to maximum GT-R BBS in Japan."http://hobby10.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/auto/1196259783/715-" The dissenting opinion is none at all. Therefore, it is necessary to revive the description of a super car. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikiarrangementeditor (talk • contribs) 22:36, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Ugh, it was never removed, per se. It was removed only from the infobox. It's not big deal. Just leave it. —Mr. Grim Reaper at 22:41, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I questions Dusk Knight.Your favorite car has Audi R8. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audi_R8 Audi R8 is "Class Supercar"??? A supercar is sure not to include such a Audi R8 alone. Why do not you correct it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikiarrangementeditor (talk • contribs) 01:03, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I have a question, what language do you natively speak? —Mr. Grim Reaper at 02:22, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I assume Japanese, that is looking at the kanji lettering. Willirennen 02:59, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Dusk Knight is an unfair person who neglects objecting, and edits it without permission.At least, you must explain the reason why favorite Audi R8 is a supercar. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikiarrangementeditor (talk • contribs) 00:24, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Mr.Anti GT-R Grim Reaper! Please do not change the thing decided by the decision by majority without permission.If it is dissatisfied, it is necessary to collect more dissenting opinions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikiarrangementeditor (talk • contribs) 04:11, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Bugatti Veyron NurTime7:40

It is slower than GT-R, and the cost performance is the lowest excrement car.If the definition of a super-car is put in question, it is necessary to edit it on the page of your favorite car. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikiarrangementeditor (talk • contribs) 05:06, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

You must understand, speed is not the only thing that makes a car a supercar. Other factors such as prices, rarity, etc. also make it a supercar. Please stop editing it. You seem to want to annoying everyone and you're not helping the GT-R article. Instead of editing the page, talk it out here. It's plain annoying. And would you please, please, please sign you comments! —Mr. Grim Reaper at 23:56, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I acquired the decision by majority from many manias, and decided that a supercar.It is only three people Dusk Knight and Mr Grim Reaper and Willirennen that oppose. A car of Europe alone is not a super-car. It is a price swindle.Please do the pricing that corresponds to the performance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikiarrangementeditor (talk • contribs) 00:10, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I am sorry. Porsche is excluded. Only Porsche is a super-car that corresponded to the price.The sports car of other Europe practiced deceit by pricing, and made the concept of a super car dirty. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikiarrangementeditor (talk • contribs) 00:15, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually it is not just three people who disagree with Wikiarrangementeditor (who seems incapable of signing posts). I feel strongly that it should be labeled as a sports car, with the clarification that Nissan and some in the press see it as a super car. The super car class should only be used in clear cut cases like the Enzo, Veyron and what not. Wikiarrangementeditor seems to feel that the GT-R provides better prefromance for the money, but this is hardly the only factor in what makes are car a supercar. --Daniel J. Leivick (talk) 00:49, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

The insistence on Daniel J. Leivick has been understood well. Then, it questions. Favorite cars Ford GT and AudiR8 and Porsche 959. These cars have been described as a supercar. What do you think? Design like ENZO that stands out. Or, is there a thing that equals the horsepower of Veyron? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikiarrangementeditor (talk • contribs) 01:11, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

What do my favorite cars have to do with this? The above comment does not make much sense. --Daniel J. Leivick (talk) 01:20, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes.your favorite cars.Do you think that a "Class supercar"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikiarrangementeditor (talk • contribs) 01:26, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I think there is a language barrier issue here. The above comment does not really mean anything in English. If by "Do you think that a "Class supercar"' you mean, "do I think my favorite cars are supercars"? The answer would be, yes... to some of them, but it doesn't have anything to do with whether the GT-R is. According to sources its status is debatable and should be indicated as such in the article. It doesn't really matter what are opinions on cars are, we have to go by sources. --Daniel J. Leivick (talk) 01:33, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Your favorite car is a wiki page of "supercar".Why is it a supercar? Please teach the reason.

Actually the GT40 is listed as a sportscar. Supercar is a POV term and should only be used in clear cut cases. If you think there are other cars that are listed as supercars that should not be feel free to discuss changing their classification on their talk pages. I will not answer any more questions regarding my favorite cars, please stay on topic. --Daniel J. Leivick (talk) 09:04, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps it would be easier for you to edit the Wikipedia article on the GT-R in your own language? The point is, anyhow, that there are other factors that decide weather or not a car is a supercar or not. These other cars you mention are obvious cases. There is almost no contradiction of what their "class" is. The GT-R, however, is less obvious and more argued, and thus it's easier to label it as a sports car here on Wikipedia. —Mr. Grim Reaper at 01:45, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I can't see what all the fuss is about. The car certainly has the performance of a supercar, so why not have it classed just that? Please stay away from philosophical talks about "what constitute a supercar". That have no importance on Wikipedia as it's primary a personal preference issue. SidewalkMCS (talk) 09:15, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Because of the conflict of sources. It's better to name it a sports car, as a supercar is a next level and is implied as a sports car, and a sports car would be less ambiguous and more general. We could still label it as a super, noting it is disputed, as I have done before. —Mr. Grim Reaper at 22:41, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I voted in BBS in which the GT-R mania gathered. The result is a class named a supercar. Anti must vanish. It is obstructive! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikiarrangementeditor (talk • contribs) 23:09, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand what you're saying. The GT-R is one of my favorite cars, and I'd like to make it as best an article as possible. —Mr. Grim Reaper at 23:21, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Honestly I think the language barrier is a significant problem in gaining consensus. I don't believe Wikiarrangementeditor is able to understand the arguements that have been laid out in favor of classifying the GT-R as a sportscar. Everytime someone explains the reasons why sportscar is a better class to use as long as a mention is made of how Nissan is marketing the vehicle, Wikiarrangement editor comes back with a semi coherent response that does not address the issues. I think consensus has been reached, we have at least four experienced editors on the side of classing it as a sportscar and two single purpose acounts in favor of supercar class, but without laying out any cogent arguements aside from the fact that the GT-R has very good performance. --Daniel J. Leivick (talk) 00:08, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Daniel, I strongly oppose your suggestion in regard to favouring experienced editors' opinions. Indeed these are my first edits on wikipedia.org, but that alone should not alter the weight or the quality of what being written. It's the topic that counts, not how long a particular person spends on this site.SidewalkMCS (talk) 12:13, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

The problem is, every time anyone edits the article per this discussion, Wikiarrangementeditor manages to revert it and make no coherent effort to talk it out. —Mr. Grim Reaper at 01:35, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Gents, I highly doubt we'll ever reach a "consensus" considering both proposals have passionate promoters. Mr./Mrs. Wikiarrangementeditor indeed seems incapable of making sensible edits, but one wrong GT-R fanatic does not justify anything in favour of the opposer. And the matter, I repeat, is purely a personal preference issue. There will NEVER be a source for this. (I detest comments from automotive publications being treated as "Source", since they are nothing more than someone's personal view printed on paper. They are not definitive in any way, except as a reference to that particular person.) Then I would assume if cars like Porsche Carrera and Audi R8 are classified as "Supercar", then I don't see any reason why this car isn't.

The performance of this car is on per or in most cases, superior. We had ENOUGH talks on "My Supercar Definitions", none of which enlighten anything. So just let the times and numbers speak for themselves. It seems a standard Wikipedia practice why should this article be an exception?SidewalkMCS (talk) 11:27, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree that it is difficult to source. That is why we should use a more general less loaded term to classify the GT-R. There may be other cars that are listed as supercars when there status as such is dubious (the R8 for example), but that is not a reason to continue the practice. I think this should set a precedent to use the supercar class only in obvious cases. Otherwise we run the risk of becoming a source for people to point to and say "look Wikipedia says it is a supercar." --Daniel J. Leivick (talk) 11:39, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

There should not be a problem with people using Wikipedia as a source of information. Isn't it the whole purpose of open encyclopedia? Saying that, one of the most important aspects of such project is consistency. I see more harm than good in rushing a ad-hoc precedence, definition or consensus, as to how a specific term should be applied, when there already is certain practice in place. Discussion in regard to that matter should be moved to the article in question ("supercar"), and not on an article that happened to be classified with it. Though I am struggling to find any purposeful meaning to such action, as I feel the current practice to be perfectly adequate. SidewalkMCS (talk) 15:19, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

There is a problem with people using Wikipedia as a source for car classification especially in borderline cases. Wikipedia should not be deciding which borderline supercars make the cut. It is a slippery slope to say "well the GT-R seems pretty close", next thing you know people will be pointing to this page when they try to have the supercar tag placed on the Mitsubishi Evolution or Ariel Atom or any other high performance vehicle that is clearly not a supercar. This is not a rushed precedent we are actually working on this in the way that most precedence on Wikipedia is produced, through discussion. In short I disagree, the current practice of using the supercar class for any high performance new car is not adequate and should be changed. --Daniel J. Leivick (talk) 17:55, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Opinions of many and unspecified GT-R fans are priority than the opinion of Anti of four people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikiarrangementeditor (talk • contribs) 02:38, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia, not a wannabe fan site. Fact and verifiability is priority of opinions, no matter who it's from. —Mr. Grim Reaper at 02:57, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Alright I think a good faith edit has been made to discuss this. The opinions of many fans of the GT-R have little to do with this article. As I have said before the reason we want to use sportscar, is because supercar is a weighted term and should only be used in clear cut cases. Wikiarrangementeditor has not made any arguements to refute this. Unless they do so I say we change it to sportscar and if Wikiarrangementeditor continues to revert then he will have to be blocked. --Daniel J. Leivick (talk) 03:11, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

You are favorite Audi R8 and Ford GT alone is not suitable for a supercar. Please edit it from your favorite car if related to the sports car. In a general line of vision, Audi R8 and Ford GT look the sports car. Moreover, though it is slower than GT-R. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikiarrangementeditor (talk • contribs) 05:11, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I am not sure if you understand what is being said. Forget about my favorite cars, if you think the R8 and Ford GT are not supercars, go to their talk pages and discuss it their. This page is for discussion of the GT-R only. You have not been able to make an arguement to refute what myself and others have layed out in regards to classifying the GT-R as a sportscar. --Daniel J. Leivick (talk) 10:52, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

It has understood. Because you are not negative, I change the item of Audi R8 and Ford GT to the sports car. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikiarrangementeditor (talk • contribs) 21:09, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

how silly....of course the GT-R is a supercar, the price does not come into it...and neither does the rarity. I find it hard to understand how anal people are being about this, and how they are trying to cite 'language barrier' as a reason not to listen to someone's opinion. It is a very fast, high powered car, not based on a lower model, not a race car and is pure ie. not a fast SUV/Sedan etc. Porsche turbo/gt3/gt2 Ford GT are all supercars. Sennen goroshi (talk) 15:36, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

I think that we came to a good consensus here. The "supercar" label is only going to be applied without saying who calls it a supercar, if the vehicle is a very clear cut example. The GT-R is not a clear cut example some people call it a supercar, some people don't. Wikipedia is not going to take sides, we will just present the info as it really is: "the GT-R is often referred to as a supercar." This works well for me. --Daniel J. Leivick (talk) 19:11, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Nissan gtr is a supercar.CompScientist (talk) 01:58, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

The gtr is a supercar and a sportscar no less, a supercar is not a supercar unless it is a sports car. I aggree with those who see the FACTS that back it up as a supercar. Now is the gtr considered an exotic? That surely is up for debate as Nissan has gone global with the car. I have no doubt that the gtr is a supercar. The arguments given above are hilarious.CompScientist (talk) 03:07, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

I will try to lay my view out as clearly as I can so we can discuss this as easily as possible and see who disagrees and who agrees. I will also post this on WP:CAR and try to get more opinions. I feel that when classifying cars we should avoid using subjective terms like "supercar" unless it is totally obvious and by that I mean fits all the usual criteria (in supercar's case: very high performance, attention grabbing styling, expensive, etc). The problem I see is that it is not hard to find sources calling any high performance modern vehicle a "supercar." For example I don't think we would use the supercar label on the Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution, but here are some sources that indicate that it is a supercar [1], [2]. I have concern that if we label the GT-R a supercar we enter a slippery slope which will eventually lead to just about every new high performance vehicle being labeled a supercar. I think "supercar" is a POV term just like "amazing" or "great." I could find plenty of sources that call the GT-R "amazing", but that doesn't mean we should start the article out say "The Nissan GT-R is an amazing supercar." We need to be conservative when we classify vehicles here, if there is any doubt, I say go with the less sensational catagory. I would like to get a sense of who agree with this and who disagrees. --Daniel J. Leivick (talk) 04:07, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

There should be some form of classification for supercar. For a new car to be classified as a supercar, I feel it should have the following - at least 6 cylinders, either 2 seats or a strict 2+2 (which is hard because I would not consider a big merc coupe to be a supercar, even when it is the AMG version) not a race car (CLK GTR? to me that is a clear case of a race car, that has been made road legal), rarity, does not come into it - a rare car is an exotic car. The emphasis should be on a car that is suitable for the road, and has a very high level of performance. Sennen goroshi (talk) 04:49, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

We really should not be trying to come up with "the wiki definition of a supercar" as it is a subjective term. I am trying to say that we should only use there term in cases were there isn't any sort of argument, i.e Ferrari Enzo, Bugatti Veyron. --Daniel J. Leivick (talk) 06:06, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Automakers help feed the automotive press a lot of BS (Boastful Superlatives) who then work hard to write articles adding even more BS to describe new products and thus earn credits from the hands that feed them. Moreover, some customers and fans have an insatiable apetite for this BS. The Nissan GT-R is a perfect example of this problem. All this talk of classifying this car as a "supercar" is designed to easily make the GT-R look superior to other vehicles in its class. Simply put, using self-serving BS in marketing claims is a very, very old invention that helps sell products and fuel the fan base with "bragging" rights. On the other hand, it is more difficult for most marketers to be humble and genuine. It is best to stay away from traditional marketing superlatives and hyperbole. Describing the GT-R as a supercar further depreciates the value of the description itself. This is because most discerning consumers have become jaded, they are not easily swayed by such BS, and most often respond with a "yeah, right" ("Marketing: Too Much Hype Backfires" ScienceDaily, March 28, 2007 retrieved on December 25 2007). Press reports of "amazing" and "awesome" are so common today, that they they not only apply to almost any new car introduced (no matter what its classification), but also to everything on the vehicle such as the radio gear they have. In summary, this new high performance vehicle is a "sports car" ... no matter what the expected BS that manufacturers and automobile journalists now slap on almost everything. I think we should help reduce the amount of BS (Boastful Superlatives) in Wikipedia. — CZmarlin (talk) 06:49, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the term supercar is overused, and in wikipedia it should only be used in clear cut cases, I also feel that the GT-R is a clear cut case. 0-60 in 3.3, 190+ MPH, 473BHP, the ring in 7.38 ( all for the base model, with more to come) and on another far more personal note - Merry Christmas !!! Sennen goroshi (talk) 14:16, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Not beat a dead horse, but performance isn't everything, look at cars like the Radical SR8 or the Ariel Atom both sports cars (not supercars) and both would run circles around the GT-R or just about any other supercar for that matter. If it was a clear cut case, we wouldn't be arguing about it. --Daniel J. Leivick (talk) 18:38, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

The problem seems to me that people are confusing the term classification with definition. In automotive terms, classifications are subjective, there are very few precise car definitions (Kei car is one and even that has changed with time) and no legal car definitions that I'm aware of that cross international boundaries. Thus if any reliable source calls it a Supercar it is one. If you can find a reliable source that says it is not a Supercar then add that as well. Remember WP:V The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. Mighty Antar (talk) 01:42, 26 December 2007 (UTC) The other point I forgot is that because they are subjective, most car classifications are not mutually exclusive, thus a car can be a sportscar, supercar and roadster all at the same time. Mighty Antar (talk) 01:57, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

I must strongly disagree, we should not use other peoples subjective labels. The lead sentence should be a simple description of fact, which it is now. As I have said before, "Supercar" is like "awesome." If a reliable source called the GT-R an "awesome supercar" we wouldn't begin the article "The Nissan GT-R is an awesome supercar" that would be not be NPOV. We should use a neutral discriptive class in all cases. In some situations were the vehicle is univeraly refered to as a supercar thats when we should use it. --Daniel J. Leivick (talk) 03:06, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

But in the automotive context there are no defined neutral descriptive classes. Mighty Antar (talk) 12:19, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

I disagree, there are many neutral descriptive classes: coupe, sedan, compact, fullsize and plenty more. High performance coupe is a much more neutral non controversial descriptive class for the GT-R. --Daniel J. Leivick (talk) 18:58, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

These may sound more neutral to you, but they are equally as vague and imprecise as supercar. Full-size and compact are terms you'd be very hard-pushed to find used for any car in the UK, most people would say large or small. Mighty Antar (talk) 20:29, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

No they are more neutral, supercar carries with it subjective implications as to the vehicles supperiority. Coupe and sedan are descriptive terms. No one would argue that the GT-R is a high performance coupe, but its supercar status is agruable, some people think it is others do not. We should use the less contentious description. --Daniel J. Leivick (talk) 21:41, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

This is hilarious. Nissan and reliable sources state the car as a supercar, Yet if someone buys the car they will be dissapointed because its just a sportscar, according to wiki, Nissan is a liar, they have lawyers who lied, they will put their billion dollar company at risk, reputation at risk, lol, this is funny, I do not want to get into an edit war. If an evo is faster than most supercars, it should be considered one, the gtr has redefined the term supercar, an ariel atom does not have all the neccessities of a car to be considered a supercar, it's obvious to see... The consensus here show that we agree on the supercar name and status, yet only two or three who diligently oppose the title supercar. Still, it is a win/win situtation for Nissan, for a car of this "questionable" and inferior status to outperform other "supercars" is an amazing feat.75.4.7.27 (talk) 00:40, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

P.S. using a japanese "wiki" page to verify that this car is not a supercar is just again hilarious.75.4.7.27 (talk) 00:42, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I changed it to a more precise intro including the word supercar. I think the consensus here would agree. Only a few here have POV's and have not provided a reliable source stating that it is "not" a supercar. I agree with Mighty Antar. Unless someone provides strong sources that say without a doubt, and literally, that it is "not" a supercar, we should stick with supercar until then, as provided by Nissan ceo, and respected automobile sources and circles.75.4.7.27 (talk) 00:52, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Stupidest edit war ever. remember that "supercar" vs "sports car" is only a made up classification. it has no impact on the car whatsoever whether people call it a supercar or a sports car. Similarly, there is no definition of supercar.. it is simply a made up term used by some people. in a sense, we could even liken it to saying someone is "cool". It makes just as much sense to argue "Mister John Smith has had more girlfriends than brad pitt, and everyone KNOWS brad pitt is cool; thus, john smith must be cool", as it is to argue "nissan gt-r is faster around the 'ring than a enzo ferrari, and we all know that enzos are supercars; thus the nissan is a supercar". we all know that being cool is more than simply how many girlfriends someone has had. we also all know that it'd be wrong to start the wiki article of Mister John Smith with "Mister John smith is a cool guy". the term "supercar" has as many different meanings to people as the word "cool" does. it's as pointless on a wiki article as saying that someone is cool.

It is fruitless to argue over a classification with no meaning and no real world impact. The most we, as wiki editors, can say is "Blah blah has termed the Nissan GT-R a 'supercar'". As the word has no real world meaning, we cannot personally apply it to the article without introducing a POV. You cannot call it a supercar simply because it is faster than another car. That would be original research. That is you saying "i believe it's a supercar because it is faster than an enzo and i believe that an enzo is a supercar and i believe that the definition of a supercar is how fast a car can go around the 'ring". this is clearly original research. You're not a reputable source of what a supercar is. It'd be hard to say that anyone is a reputable source of what a supercar is, and thus it is safer to simply say that "blah blah has called it a supercar", rather than saying "the gtr IS a supercar because blah blah aid so".

I will again revert the article to the NPOV stance. I'm starting to get tempted to simply change the article to "The Nissan GT-R is an automobile..." rather than "is as sports car" or "supercar". I dont think anyone will disagree with the GT-R being an automobile. you can fight the supercar/sports car article in your own head. (and before anyone tries to say that i'm showing my POV because i'm biased against the GT-R, check the article's edit history. I'm not some corvette fanboy trying to put the GT-R down. I love this car; i CREATED this article. but the supercar/sportscar debate is pure stupidity) Hugzz (talk) 05:19, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Hugzz and this pointless editing was to uphold "bragging" rights for this new model. As noted before, the terminology to describe all too many things today consists mostly of BS (Boastful Superlatives) -- even the Wikipedia article for supercar states "The proper application of the term is subjective and disputed, especially among enthusiasts." This, and all similar high-performance vehicles are just automobiles that are made to go fast. They will not make the driver any "cooler", younger, or more virile, no matter how "super" their ride is! — CZmarlin (talk) 05:55, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

"Nissan GT-R: Redefining the word Supercar", Crappy catch I know, but it just popped into my mind, after looking at all the silly edit war her. Anyways the creator of the car states clearly that "the GT-R is a completely new kind of a Supercar"(my rough translation from a Japanese mag), it really is a small issue how some desperate some people can be on Wikipedia. Some are so eager to discredit the car while some have gone as far as editing all the Supercar articles on wikipedia to something else! quite hilarious really. 210.159.162.112 (talk) 16:48, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

No consensus

I have reverted the change made to the intro by 75.4.7.27 as I don't believe we have reached a consensus. Mighty Antar (talk) 12:01, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't believe it's helpful to say that this is a stupid edit war as the subject of Car classification has implications for almost every automotive article. What we are aiming for is to arrive at a consensus that might be applied to this and all other automobile articles. Mighty Antar (talk) 12:10, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

You're right, it's probably not helpful to call the edit war stupid; and it probably is no more stupid than any other edit war. If any form of consensus could be found it would likely apply to all car automobiles, because the edit war is not really over a lack of agreement on what it means to be a supercar, but rather whether a term such as "supercar" can be used in an encyclopedic way.

--Hugzz (talk) 22:19, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

--Hugzz (talk) 23:05, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

 No one has provided a strong source stating that the gtr is NOT a supercar.  It is as simple as that.  I have changed 
 the intro to supercar, until anyone can provide credible sources, not POV's as to why it is not a supercar.  Again,
 it is as simple as that.

71.156.55.133 (talk) 21:09, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Please find me a strong source stating that brad pitt is NOT a cool guy. It's as simple as that. Currently, the intro to the brad pitt article says:

William Bradley "Brad" Pitt (born December 18, 1963) is an American actor, film producer, and social activist.

Want to guess how long it would take to get reverted if i changed it to:

William Bradley "Brad" Pitt (born December 18, 1963) is an American actor, film producer, social activist and cool guy.

It would get reverted very quickly because the word "supercar" is as meaningless and encyclopedic as "cool". Deep down we all know more or less what it means, but it's impossible to define it quantitatively. Thus, any attempt to apply it to an article requires subjective judgement. Wikipedia is not a place for subjective judgement. Rather, we should quantify the facts relating to the issue (eg put down all the specs regarding how fast the nissan GT-R is) and allow their reader to make up their own mind whether the GT-R is a supercar or not.

- Hugzz (talk) 22:05, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

^^^^No sources, yet only POV's.^^^^ See my point! Let's stick to the subject of this article... The burden is on those who oppose that Nissan is a supercar must provide SOURCES NOT POV's. It is as simple as that, provide your sources, thank you.71.156.55.133 (talk) 22:39, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

There is no debate whether people have called the GT-R a supercar. We all agree that sources have said that. In fact, if you look at the article you will see that it says "Nissan and the automotive press frequently refer to the GT-R as a supercar."

The debate isn't whether there are sources or not to say this; the debate is whether the term "supercar" is encyclopedic; ie whether WE can state that the GT-R is a supercar. I do not feel that we here at wikipedia are in a position to define the term "supercar".

Until the rest of the word agrees upon a set definition for the word "supercar" we should not use it. The word is too vague, and implies too many different things to too many people. Again, outline the facts surrounding the car and allow the reader to decide for themselves whether the GT-R is a supercar or not.

--Hugzz (talk) 23:05, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

User 71.156.55.133, please stop reverting the article to say that it is a supercar. There is currently no consensus on the issue, and it is clearly a topic of debate. Wikipedia makes decisions based on consensus. Where consensus does not apply, the article should not reflect one point of view nor the other (ie the article should not say that it IS a supercar, and the article should not say that it ISN'T a supercar). Where there is not consensus we should take the conservative approach to the issue and outline the relevant facts. Thus, in this situation rather that either saying "the gtr is a supercar" or "the gtr is not a supercar", we should simply say "the gtr is a car that many in the automotive press have called a 'supercar'". Both you and I can agree to this statement; whereas both you and i do NOT agree with the statement that "the gtr is a supercar". [actually, in honesty i do think that it's probably a supercar; i just do not feel that its suitable for wikipedia to define it as such] --Hugzz (talk) 23:13, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Many do not agree with the sentence "Nissan and the press frequently refer it to a supercar". It is deceiving. This sentence leads the reader to believe that there are some that do not think it is a supercar. BUT more importantly, no one has provided a credible source that it is not a supercar, this leads me to believe that the opposition is only wiki readers and their POV's. not a credible source that states it does not belong in this category. If so, then we must delete the term supercar from EVERY article in wiki, until this is resolved. AGAIN PROVIDE YOUR SOURCE THAT IT IS NOT A SUPERCAR, AND NOT YOUR POV'S. Yet, there is still not a source to back it up in this page so far and only POV's. thank you.75.4.7.201 (talk) 00:48, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I have reverted it back to supercar again. I feel that the sources back it up. Yet the opposition has not provided a credible source and only POV's, again. I believe that this is the consensus, except for only two or three who diligently oppose, with POV's and no sources....75.4.7.201 (talk) 00:57, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Take it easy no need to SHOUT. Here are four sources that discuss the GT-R but do not call it a supercar: [3], [4], [5], [6]. Your suggestion of removing all of the supercar labels is not a terrible idea and I would support it on all but the most clear cut cases as the term is very vague and subjective. By the way reverting to a contentious version during the discussion is not acceptable, you have been asked not to do this before. --Daniel J. Leivick (talk) 01:00, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

We need a source that says clearly and specifically without a doubt that "it is NOT a supercar", not a source that uses the term sportscar, as it does not literally and specifically imply the gtr is Not a supercar and it is a general term used for supercars all the time. 75.4.7.201 (talk) 01:04, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

There is not one source out there that says the GT-R is "Not" a supercar.  Period.  Others whom agree it is a supercar have 
credible sources, albeit primary, credible sources.  Those who oppose have not provided one, not one source, not even one,  
zero sources, stating that the GT-R "not" a supercar.  It is as simple as that.

75.4.7.201 (talk) 01:25, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I will say for the 5th time now that this is not an issue of sources. We all agree that there are sources claiming the Nissan GT-R to be a supercar. The issue at hand is that the term "supercar" may be deemed to be unencyclopedic. In that case it wouldn't matter how many sources say that it is a supercar, we still would not say so in the article.

Please do not make further edits to the article in regards to the "supercar" status until you understand that this is not a question of sources, but rather is a question of whether a term such as "supercar" is suitable to be used on wikipedia. From the amount of controversy that it has caused on this one article alone, i would say that the definition of "supercar" is too widely disagreed upon to be used definitively on wikipedia.

This is not a question of sources.

--Hugzz (talk) 01:35, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I totally agree, the internet is full of people arguing this vehicles supercar status, that is a fact. We should not be using this subjective term in such a controversial case. --Daniel J. Leivick (talk) 01:39, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Yet no sources provided again, and trying to put attention elsewhere, this is a question of sources as those are the ones closer to academia and not merely POV's from wiki editors. thank you. This is all about sources from the beginning as it helps reach a consensus that is not biased from the same wiki editors.75.4.7.201 (talk) 01:48, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Try to understand, the term "supercar" carries with it inherent point of view. It should not be used in controversial cases, I don't need a source to prove this is controversial, it obviously is. Wikipedia is not entirely about sources, editrial descretion is important on controversial topics, that is why we should use a less loaded description and let readers decide for themselves. --Daniel J. Leivick (talk) 01:54, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Again no POV's please, just provide a credible source. Thank you.75.4.7.201 ([[User  
talk:75.4.7.201|talk]]) 01:56, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

This is a car that has not even been released yet. There are not many reliable sources that are not just regurgiating Nissan marketing hype. However, read any forum where this car is being discussed and you will see major contoversy regarding the GT-R status as a supercar. I would not use a forum as a source, but it clearly shows that conroversy exists and we should use caution when describing this vehicle. --Daniel J. Leivick (talk) 02:02, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Again no POV's please, just provide a credible source.  Thank you.75.4.7.201 (talk) 02:05, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

For the 6th time, I tell you that this is NOT an issue of sources. Sources have nothing to do with the question at hand. You are making it very clear that you have no understanding of the issue that we are debating, so i ask you to please stop editing the article whilst there is an ongoing discussion of an issue which you are not understanding.

I have made a serious effort to attempt to address each and every concern that you state, and in turn provide my arguments. Time after time, you ignore each and every one of my arguments and simply restate your argument (which I have already responded to 5 previous times). I can only assume at this stage that you have no interest in this debate whatsoever and are simply trolling. If this is not the case, I invite you to please read all of the above discussion and respond to the various points proposed by a number of editors.

Furthmore, I draw your attention to WP:3RR, which you are currently in breach of. Your frequent reverts in regards to an issue which is currently being debated is very disruptful. Please stop this.

--Hugzz (talk) 02:13, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

It seems that six times you responded without a source, just POV's, whilst ones who concurr it is a supercar have done so. After all this, still no source has been provided, just POV's. I agree with 75.4.7.201CompScientist (talk) 02:34, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Please read all of the above; and I will repeat myself for the 7th time. This is not an issue of sources. The issue at hand is simply that the term "supercar" is unencyclopedic. It has no set meaning, and causes dfficulty every time that it is used. It is nothing more than a made up word that is, in itself, a POV. Saying "The Nissan GT-R is a supercar" is ike saying "Brad Pitt is cool". Both may have many sources which agree (i'm sure there is no shortage of magazine articls saying that brad pitt is cool), but neither statement belongs in an encyclopedia because neither the term "cool" nor "supercar" have a set meaning. Both words mean different things to different people. I'd be perfectly happy to see the statement "time magazine declared bratt pitt the 'coolest man alive'". Similarly, I'd be happy to see "many in the automotive press have declared the Nissan GT-R a 'supercar'"; but at the end of the day this is just stating their point of view.

A 0-60 time is a fact. We can state "edmunds recorded the nissan gt-r doing 0-60 in 3.3 seconds" and no one can deny that. It's a fact. We cannot say "the nissan GT-R is a supercar" because it is not a fact. It's a point of view. You think it's a supercar, but someone else doesn't. Determining whether something is a supercar or not requires judgement. It requires a person to give their point of view on a car. Your point of view is that the nissan gtr is a supercar; many other people have the point of view that the nissan gtr is not a supercar. It is not the place of wikipedia to state a point of view in one direction or the other. The most that wikipedia can say is "some magazines have the point of view that the nissan gtr is a supercar".

0-60 times = measurable, fact. 1/4 times = measurable, fact. Top speed = measurable, fact. Weight = measurable, fact. Supercar status = not measurable, opinion.

--Hugzz (talk) 02:49, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I really believe that a source needs to be provided also. It really says a lot when one hasn't been provided at all!!! Amazing, no sources yet, just repeated POV's.CompScientist (talk) 03:06, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

A source saying what? The issue isn't whether people think the GTR is a supercar; the issue is whether "supercar" is an encyclopedic word, or if calling something a "supercar" is simply a matter of opinion.

I'd maybe be interested if there was a credible source defining a what a supercar is in a quantitative way. If there was a standards body which defined what a supercar is then i'd be so happy to state "the nissan gtr is a supercar, as defined by the Automobile Stanards body of the World"

So you're right. There is a lack of sources; there's a lack of sources proving that "supercar" is an actual word with an actual meaning, and not just an expresion of opinion. It's certainly not in my dictionary. --Hugzz (talk) 03:16, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

• Some sources for a "definition" of the description:

"A term supercar was coined to describe extremely expensive, extremely beautiful and extremely fast cars. But the proper use of this term is often subjective and disputed, especially among enthusiasts. There is no clear definition of what characteristics a car must have to be a supercar. What constitutes a supercar is often a matter of opinion.Robert Hills in an essay "What Is The Definition Of a Supercar?"

"By definition, supercars are temperamental beasts that buck at anything but the open road."Aaron Gold, About.com

"Who ever heard of a true supercar being useable?" EVO magazine

... as well as countless similar POV statements.

• Therefore, it is very difficult to use POV as a source to describe POV to begin with! Moreover, the "source" about this car is the manufacturer and their marketing strategy is to enhance the "appeal" and "buzz" about this model. Contributing to this "debate" is an example of their effective promotional campaign ahead of the public sale of their high-performance vehicle. And its description as a high-performance sports-oriented automobile is the only one that is not debatable as this time. CZmarlin (talk) 03:45, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

It is obvious that there in no real debate here, just POV's from diligent biased editors. It is sufficient to keep the term supercar until sources, not POV's show otherwise.CompScientist (talk) 10:27, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

There definitly is debate here and I don't know why you assume anyone is biased one way or the other, I like the GT-R and want the best possible article for it without a bunch of sycophantic hype. You need to read WP:NPOV because I think you throw around the word "POV" without understanding what it means in the wiki sense. We are trying to be neutral and avoid loaded words without clearly saying who says them in the text. --Daniel J. Leivick (talk) 18:02, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Again, no POV's, just provide a source to support your POV.  Amazingly you haven't done so.  I can really care less whether 
you like the gtr or not, lol, just give a credible source to support your POV. thank you!CompScientist (talk) 22:46, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

You can say "POV" and "no source" all you want, but you are missusing the terms. This issue does not have to do with sources (this has been said at least 10 times). High "performance coupe" is neutral wording, "supercar" is not neutral. This is not a "POV" (something can be sourced and still violate WP:NPOV) as you put it, this is a what consensus has established. Currently 5 established and experienced editors have agreed that the description should read "high performance coupe." As far as I can tell CompScientist and the dynamic IP are the only ones left arguing for a change (if infact they are seperate people). I think we are looking at pretty near a consensus to keep the article as it is. --Daniel J. Leivick (talk) 02:52, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Again, and again, no POV's please, there should be sources to back up your claim, you have provided none whatsoever, 
CompScientist (talk) 05:52, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

a source that defines the GT-R as a supercar

Cover Story: Nissan GT-R This is it, then. No more hype, no more tantalising tales from the Ring. Finally we can judge Nissan’s new supercar from the driver’s seat.

http://www.evo.co.uk/news/evonews/213486/this_months_evo.html

I don't see why people are getting so worked up about the use of this term, I don't see this attitude regarding someone being called a supermodel, and at least with supercars, there are figures to back up the use of the word.Sennen goroshi (talk) 10:23, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, we already have sources that state the GT-R is a supercar, the issue isn't whether people think the GTR is a supercar; the issue is whether

1. "supercar" is an encyclopedic word, or

2. calling something a "supercar" is simply a matter of opinion.

If the former then we can continue to use it in the class section of Template:Infobox Automobile as in Lamborghini Reventón, Bugatti Veyron etc. and whenever we like in any article about a car we think qualifies as a supercar, if the latter then it should only be used with a specific citation. Everyone would probably agree that the Veyron is a supercar, the problem is that there is no specific threshold between a supercar and a sports car. The De Tomaso Pantera is perhaps another contentious example. Mighty Antar (talk) 13:14, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I feel that it is not an encyclopedic word, it often gets thrown around with a bunch of marketing hype which is picked up by the "reliable sources" (car mags). Actually if we look at Sennen Goroshi's example it seems that the fashion industry is better at using the term supermodel then with the car industry's use of the word supercar. Apparently there have only been 7 or 8 recognized supermodels is the past 30 years. That is not to say that the use of "such and such is a supercar made by..." should be wiped off of Wikipedia, there are a number of clear cut cases (just as with supermodels) where no one in good faith would argue about it, as I have said a dozen times before this is not a clear cut case. --Daniel J. Leivick (talk) 18:49, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

The issue of the term supercar, whether encyclopedic or not, is also POV.  To make everything fair, there are sources that 
say gtr is a supercar, and none whatsoever that say it is not.  I hope people see the point and do not get sucked into this 
argument of whether it's an encyclopedic term because that quite frankly is someone's POV.  There are sources that state gtr 
is a supercar under this supposed subjective term, while on the same playingfield, none that states it is not a supercar 
under this subjective term.  So provide a source, it is as simple as that, no POV's, Thank you.

P.S. to say supercar is simply a matter of opinion is your opinion and POV, do not enforce it on others....no redefining 
vocabulary terms, no brad pitt analogies lol, no marketing scheme analogies lol, no POV's period, just provide a source, we 
in favor have, why can't you???? 75.7.235.53 (talk) 00:23, 29 
December 2007 (UTC)

There are plenty of source that discuss what a vague term supercar is. To say it is "POV" to say that supercar is not an encyclopedic term, shows a misunderstanding of WP:NPOV. Finally if you continue to edit the page while the discussion is going on, I will have to get it protected. --Daniel J. Leivick (talk) 01:23, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

This is a warning to Daniel J. Leivick, 
   1.  do not erase my posts on the discussion page.
   2.  provide a source, not POV's.
   3.  provide a source, not POV's.
   4.  provide a source, not POV's.
   5.  again, do not erase any of my posts or try to block me for an unreasonable POV.
thank you75.7.235.53 (talk) 01:47, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Nissan GT-R outperforms expectations

http://www.caradvice.com.au/9022/nissan-gt-r-outperforms-expectations/

"When Nissan first released the performance figures for their new GT-R, many scoffed at the unbelievably quick times Nissan were toting - 3.5 seconds to 100km/h and an 11.6 second run down the quarter mile off the showroom floor, right.

However as journalists the world over get their hands on the new GT-R, it seems Nissan have actually been conservative with their performance figures, with auto-magazine Edmunds recording a 3.3 second sprint to 100km/h and matching the blisteringly quick 11.6 second quarter mile at 196km/h - and from only two attempts.

This puts the GT-R well into supercar territory, at less than a quarter of the price." Zerosignal84 (talk) 04:13, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Nissan GT-R Wins The TopGear Supercar of the Year Award

http://www.topgear.com/content/timetoburn/sections/galleries/other/awards07/12/

The GT-R is monstrously good. It locks on like a missile. Seriously, this thing hooks up and accelerates like a Bugatti Veyron. Its body control is breathtaking, too - you just know that this car has been meticulously engineered down to the last tiny grommet. I seriously doubt that there is a car on the planet that can corner faster or more aggressively than this. - Jason Barlow

--Zerosignal84 (talk) 10:25, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

sources stating the Nissan GT-R is not a supercar(goes under here,no POV's please)

I agree with Daniel's earlier point, I think supercar is a borderline peacock term and too vague to be used as indiscriminately in Wikipedia as it is in the motoring press. I would suggest that with very few exceptions it should only be used in a sourced statement. To muddy the waters a bit further, there is a dictionary definition for supercar in Collins English Dictionary (2003 edition) - "A very expensive fast or powerful car with a centrally located engine". which clearly shows that the Nissan is not a supercar. I don't agree with that myself, but that's just my POV. I think Daniels [current] edit is the correct one for this particular car and that the issue of car classification in the Template:Infobox Automobile needs to be addressed. Mighty Antar (talk) 02:02, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

 Again no POV's, just provide a source, thank you.75.7.235.53 (talk) 02:14, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

I just did. Mighty Antar (talk) 02:27, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

You have merely provided an ambiguous definition of supercar and using POV's as to the status of the car. Again no POV's, you have not provided a source which states that the GTR is NOT a supercar literally. It is only fair as we in favor have provided many, so that we may compare sources, not POV's or vocabulary definitions. Until then, I am done with this discussion and until there is a credible source(not from a dictionary lol, or brad pitt analogies lol) to say it is not a supercar, I think it is perfectly fine to use the term supercar in the intro. P.S. Even if your definition/source is valid, is isn't a strong one, and I do not see a statement saying "the Nissan GT-R is not a supercar", just your POV again. I hope you see that it is a weak argument on your part. Again show me a credible source. Thank you.75.7.235.53 (talk) 03:04, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

What article were you reading that actually said the GT-R is not a super car? This article was deliberately worded to avoid saying one way or the other. No one is obligated to provide sources for something the article never said.~ Dusk Knight 05:00, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Logically it comes down to that, everyone here is on a level playingfield, one side of the argument has provided a published article from credible sources, which ""supports their argument"" without a doubt. To debunk this notion the other side doesn't provide any source to ""SUPPORT"" their argument at all, just preaching, euphemisms and their personal POV's and lectures on the english language, That is hilarious. I see no debate here at all, just a deceptive circumstantial counter argument with only POV's to back it up, and even in wiki's case doesn't cut it.75.7.235.53 (talk) 05:34, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

The "Might Antar" provided a source that show to some people the GT-R is not a supercar. You don't need to show that someone specifically defines the GT-R as a non supercar, we just need to show that it does not meet the usual definition of supercar This source is highly reliable and provides a precise three part definition definition that the GT-R only meats a third of. This is the source that you have been crying out for for so long. As the GT-R is clearly a disputed source, we have to choose the conservative approach and define it as a high performance vehicle, but still mention that it is often referred to by reliable source is a Supercar. From here the reader can make up their own minds. --Daniel J. Leivick (talk) 06:21, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Again no POV's please, seriously, this dictionary(2003), gtr 2008. get it? show a credible source, not defintions,thank you, 75.3.245.182 (talk) 08:20, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Straw poll

I think a non binding straw poll would be helpful in acheiving consensus. We have been debating this for a long time and I think it would be helpful to see where we all stand at this time. As far as I can tell there are two camps (correct me if I am wrong). Those in favor of the current wording(high peformance sports coupe/with mention of supercar label being applied by Nissan and some in the press)and those who would like to use the supercar label. Obviously the results of this poll are not binding and we will still have to work towards a consensus, but I think it would be good to get an idea about which editors come down on which side. --Daniel J. Leivick (talk) 18:24, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Those for using "high performance sports coupe"

1. Daniel J. Leivick (talk) 18:24, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
2. Willirennen (talk) 18:33, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
3. Mighty Antar (talk) 18:45, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
4. Dusk Knight (talk) 18:53, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
5. CZmarlin (talk) 21:47, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
6. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 07:03, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
   • Comment: A straw poll does not necessary reflect consensus, but given that there have been no healthy arguments against the use of "high performance sports coupe" versus "supercar" with extra baggage added on, I believe that the weight should be given on the reflected edit that I reverted to (from a persistent 3RR vio). Seicer (talk) (contribs) 07:03, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
7. Mr. Grim Reaper (talk) 03:23, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
8. Hugzz (talk) 05:16, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
   • Comment: This is more of a vote "against supercar" rather than "for any specific alternative". I currently neither like nor dislike the phrase ""high performance sports coupe", but I do support using an alternative term to "supercar". See my comment below in "Discussion". Hugzz (talk) 05:16, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
9. EconomistBR (talk) 04:10, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
   • Comment: Supercar? No because any car priced below $100,000 is "cheap", and supercars are not cheap. You do get supercar performance with the Nissan GT-R , Top Gear would agree with me.EconomistBR (talk) 04:10, 6 January 2008 (UTC) OH...Top Gear did call it a supercar, I am very surprised. It's too cheap to be a supercar IMO.EconomistBR (talk) 04:16, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

• This comment by EconomistBR is one reason why supercar is a neologism: there is no set operational term for supercar outside of general use by several magazines. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 04:19, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Those for using "Supercar"

1. Zerosignal84 (talk) 12:33, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

Perhaps this would make a nice amend that would satisfy both camps. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 16:59, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

“ The Nissan GT-R is a high performance automobile created by Nissan, and has been labeled a supercar by Nissan and several automotive magazines. It was released in Japan on December 6, 2007 and will be released internationally in early 2008. ”

That works for me. --Daniel J. Leivick (talk) 17:10, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

And me. Mighty Antar (talk) 01:00, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps this description would also avoid the problems with editors who violate the 3RR rule. — CZmarlin (talk) 04:24, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps now that TopGear have declared the GT-R Supercar of the year (See above) you will all finally accept it.--Zerosignal84 (talk) 10:27, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Please understand that this is not an issue of sources. Top Gear calling it a supercar has no impact at all on the discussion at hand (at least not until Top Gear provides a objective definition of the term "supercar" that becomes adopted as the standard definition in the English language). Hugzz (talk) 05:23, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I generally support that suggestion; however, at the risk of beating a metaphorical dead horse, I wonder if "high performance" is a little too subjective in itself? Who's to say what is "high performance" and what is not? Does a high performance car have to be fast, or must it just have high horse power? Is an incredibly fuel efficient car "high performance" due to its ability to extract a comparatively large amount of power out of a small engine? I like where we're going with this "issue", but I wonder if there may be even more objective ways to describe the car? (but i'm starting to be pedantic) Hugzz (talk) 05:23, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps it would be best just to describe the specifics of the car, in terms of engine size, and let the reader determine the category that the car falls in. Or to state, "the car has a 3.7-L output blah blah and it is considered XX by XXY and YY by YYX." Seicer (talk) (contribs) 05:26, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I think I might actually agree. There isn't really a reason to call any car "high performance" here, readers can look at the specs and decide for themselves. What was high performance 20 years ago is average or bellow today. I think the most percise label is probably "sports coupe" or something along those lines. I doubt we can have the unprotect the article though, I have a feeling the SPA edit warring will continue. The question at this point is, should we remove the supercar label from other perhaps more obvious vehicles like the Enzo? --Daniel J. Leivick (talk) 05:37, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I tend to agree. It's far more useful to have an article which starts with something like "The Nissan GT-R is a 473hp AWD coupe capable of 0-60mph in x seconds". That would make it so much easier to compare cars in different articles.

In the current setup you could open the Nissan GTR article and the Ferrari enzo article and the lotus elise article and receive the following information:

"The ferrari enzo is a supercar"

"The nissan gt-r is a supercar"

"The lotus elise is a supercar"

Not very useful for comparison, huh?

It'd be far more useful if they all said:

"The ferrari enzo is a 660hp RWD mid engined coupe capable of 0-60 in 3 seconds"

"The nissan gt-r is a 480hp AWD coupe capable of 0-60 in 3.2 seconds"

"The lotus elise is a 200HP mid engined RWD coupe capable of 0-60 in 4.5 seconds".

See, much more useful? With that information you can do an immediate comparison of the three cars (note: all the above stats are made up on the spot. also note that "hp" and "0-60" may not be the best info for the intro.. its just an example). So yes, I do even support removing the term "supercar" from "clear cut" situations such as the enzo. Hugzz (talk) 06:11, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Well if that is the case I would fully expect that all references to 'Supercar' be removed from Wikipedia, the whole issue simply comes down to that some people do not think this car deserves the title. Be it the badge it wears I don't know, I wonder what would happen if it wore a Porsche badged and was priced at $300k.

The facts are this car: - Is called a supercar be numerous people the automotive press; - It has a never before seen rear mounted transaxle; - Perhaps the most advanced and inteligent AWD system; - Wikipedia will look stupid and wrong with all the press calling this a Supercar and it not. --202.44.184.153 (talk) 05:44, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks very much for your comment! You are indeed correct that this WOULD apply to the whole of wikipedia. See, although this discussion is taking place on the Nissan GT-R article talk page, the discussion has nothing to do with the Nissan GT-R itself; rather, this discussion is PURELY limited to the ability to apply a potentially subjective word like "supercar" to wikipedia. If we are able to achieve a consensus here, then we would all work to apply that consensus to the rest of wikipedia.

Purely because the debate began on this article, it must be finished on this article's talk page before we can attempt to apply the policy to the rest of wikipedia. But please understand that those of us arguing against the term "supercar" dont have anything against the Nissan GT-R; we just dont think the word "supercar" is encyclopedic . The Nissan GT-R is great! If I was writing a magazine article on it i'd call it a "supercar", but if i was writing an encyclopedia article on it I wouldn't. Hugzz (talk) 05:56, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

• It all boils down to the use of "Boastful Superlatives" and this problem will continue as other automakers will soon introduce successive innovations that will make this car and its "intelligent design" systems obsolete. The "high-performance supercar" of a just decade ago now has a hard time keep up with the newest models. We have an age old problem of a moving target as technology improves. Wikipedia is not the forum for original research, but perhaps the automotive press will come up with new and improved superlatives such as "ultracar" that will describe the ever faster, more economical, and better performing vehicles -- similarly as the marketers of laundry detergents or computers promote their new and improved products. As I observe this discussion, it does seem that some enthusiasts get inordinately possessive regarding the labeling of their favorite cars! What is the "hottest" model they boast about today will very likely be ignored in the future and an encyclopedia article simply needs to state the facts about the subject, not hyperbole. — CZmarlin (talk) 06:22, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Wouldn't this be considered a neologism? It may have been coined years ago to describe a powerful car, but operational definitions change and as you stated, in twenty years, will the GT-R be considered a 'supercar'? It also seems that the word supercar is used primarily within the automotive forum and with certain magazines (not all magazines and reviews use the term supercar). Seicer (talk) (contribs) 06:38, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. In 50 years time a great many people would not agree with the statement "The Nissan GT-R (or ferrari f430, or lamborghini diablo, etc) is a supercar". They'd laugh at that idea, since their idea of a supercar would be very different. However, even in 50 years time no one could deny the statement "The nissan GTR is an AWD coupe with 473HP, capable of doing 0-60mph in x seconds, and capable of lapping the 'ring in xmins", because that is true and will always be true. Hugzz (talk) 06:41, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

If we did implement the solution that disallows the use of both terms as potential neologisms or terms that would be frequently outdated, this article could serve as a model for other pages. I see nothing mentioning a "supercar" or other potential neologisms or the like at these featured and good articles: Holden VE Commodore De Lorean DMC-12 Maserati MC12 Mercedes-Benz 450SEL 6.9 Autobianchi Primula Lancia Flaminia. This article mentions the term, but I see nothing of the mention at Wikipedia:WikiProject Automobiles/Conventions. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 16:30, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I would like to point out where it says 'if the Ferrari Enzo is a supercar, then the Nissan GT-R is a supercar, then although I never consider it to be, will this mean because a Ford RS200 has been considered to be a supercar by a TV show I have been watching recently, this will mean that it is officially a supercar. That is why I would never be that supportive about the GT-R having the claim being one, plus Nissan would want to call their car that just to sell them, otherwise if they don't they might not be able to find their customers who won't be suckered into believing that they are buying a budget "supercar". Willirennen (talk) 16:33, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I like the direction this is going, however I have a couple of concerns that need to be worked out. First supercar is used in a lot of manufacturers templates. These templates seem to use gut feeling to class the vehicles more than anything else. Secondly category: supercar exists right now, although currently it seems to include only obvious examples. There is also category sportscar which I have never cared for. It seems to include just about any halfway sporty car. Finally this discussion should be taken to WP:CAR to make sure consensus exists for the changes we are discussing. --Daniel J. Leivick (talk) 23:58, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Can I join with Daniel and invite everyone interested to continue to discuss these issues at a centralised discussion on the WikiProject Automobiles page here. I think the terms we are looking at are well enough established to be considered as jargon rather than neologisms. Mighty Antar (talk) 01:38, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

No problem. I might be on later to add comments, but feel free to copy/paste this entire discussion or link to it. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 03:38, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Discussion has been continued here. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 04:22, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Who do you trust? Sources provided by respected Journalists/Scholars or Wiki editors without credentials

It is clear that there is no debate here and evidently discussed already by the professionals. The scholars/journalist/graduates in the field have already asked the questions raised in this discussion about using supercar and its definition(I know there has to be at least one english graduate writer/editor in the topgear article lol!!!)yet still concluded with the term supercar as the appropriate classification. It is not up to biased editors to determine what supercar is. Again, it's obvious that this has been disscussed before and determined already by the journalists/historians/scholars and that's why it is used, period. It is funny that the wiki editors opposing using supercar cannot agree on using the term "high performance" also!!!, and still have not provided sources to support their view!!! We leave this up to the professionals, not wiki editors and their humorous POV's. I prefer, as provided by countless sources to support this:

1. The Nissan GT-R is a supercar.

2. The GT-R is a Japanese supercar.

3. The GT-R is a supercar created by Nissan.

I prefer number 1, but any three will be a perfect and accurate description.71.156.48.66 (talk) 17:40, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

The introduction of the article should read:

"The Nissan GT-R is a supercar, released in Japan on December 6th, 2007, and expected to be released internationally by the beginning of 2008.[2][3][4][5]"

Reason being is that the suggested revert is supported by credible sources as noted by wikipedia's policy and not a POV by wiki editors, lastly and most importantly follows wikipedia's policy of Verifiability. Discussion has gotten out of hand with POV's, and they provide no credible source to support their opposing view, not one, after being asked to. This standard is not in accordance with wikipedia and therefore the edit must be acknowledged immediately.

Discussion has continued elsewhere, as relevance to the term supercar or high performance coupe and such may pose to be neologisms or vague terms that can be better defined with general specifications. This is more of a project issue not in relation to this article, and was noted as such above. Furthermore, you can apply a little more good faith in your replies; no one is applying their "humorous" point-of-views, given that the article is protected and we are attempting to reach a consensus that the majority can agree with. And given the discussions above, most are inclined to use a variant of the general specification method for describing the vehicle. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 22:30, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Neologisms?(this is original research and a violation of wikipedia's policy). The professional journalists have used the term supercar over and over. You cannot deny the sources as in accordance with wiki policy.75.7.233.121 (talk) 22:41, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

A neologism is a guideline, not original research and certainly not in violation of "policy." Please assume good faith. Whether or not the term supercar is cited in a magazine is irrelevant if the terminology can become dated, is not clear in its purpose, or is a relatively self-defined term. Also of note, please indent your replies to the corresponding post. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 22:48, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

We're not denying it. But we are saying not to call it a supercar, only mention others do. —Mr. Grim Reaper at 22:52, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

You cannot undermine these sources and say they are irrelevant. This has been discussed already by scholars in the automotive press many times over else they risk their credibility, so we must stick with the sources according to wiki's policy and not POV's and original research.75.7.233.121 (talk) 22:58, 8 January 2008 (UTC)