User talk:Kim Bruning

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Discussion on Jimbos page

I am awake and waiting for your counterarguments. Prandr 11:09 CEST, 14 May 2007

Super datatool!!!

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Hauptautoren. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eloquence (talk • contribs)

Wikipedia has a second Carlos admin

Click there to open your card! → → →

My dear Wikipedian Kim Bruning,
Thank you for your participation in my RFA, which closed successfully with 29 supports, 1 opposed, and 3 neutral. No matter if you !voted support, oppose, neutral, or even if you just stopped by to make a comment, I thank you for taking the time to drop by. Since I am a new admin, if you have any suggestions or concerns, feel free to inform me of them. Special thanks to Carlossuarez46 for encourage me and nomination. Thank you and good day.

Carlosguitar

Credits

This RFA thanks was inspired by The Random Editor, who in turn was inspired by Phaedriel's RFA thanks. So unfortunately this is not entirely my own design.

This end the usual RFA thanks spam. You may return to your regular editing now.

Reasoning about 'Ignore All Rules'

So far, I have reservations about the current version. I do not support any speedy or radical changes in the policy, and I would be more comfortable if we sought a broader consensus - reflecting a greater depth of experience than I can bring - if we came to a point where we were considering a change in the page that would reflect a definite change in the policy. In the immediate term, if there is an articulation of the policy which can be more explicit as to what is and is not meant by that twelve word sentence, that would address some of my reservations. 69.49.44.11 (talk) 17:26, 5 March 2008 (UTC) [as posted to Ignore all rules at the cited time.]

You feel that my position is self-contradictory [phrase bolding revenge time! :D ], which is possible, and I am curious as to why. 69.49.44.11 (talk) 18:16, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

"user69.49.44.11 said: <have reservations> <not support speedy or radical changes> <seek broader consensus> <if> had to bold something <there is an articulation ...more explicit> <would address some of my concerns> ". [see above]. There that is what is self-contradictory! "You" had reservations, then they became concerns! How do you expect us all to follow when you change your mind so often. HahA--Newbyguesses - Talk 19:47, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Lectures (great idea!)

Great idea, I'd love to sit in and see if I learn anything. I saw someone asking if they needed any special software, and it occurred to me that providing a web-IRC client like this might be handy. I can set that up if you like (the linked one is mine, I can add the relevant server/channel you want to use to the lists there).

--_{tiny plastic} Grey Knight ⊖ 18:10, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Since we've got 6 people listed so far, I think we may need to start planning. :-) I was pondering starting on a weekend 1 or 2 weeks from now. --Kim Bruning (talk) 19:50, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

You have time to give lectures? Waerth (talk) 05:37, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

AFTER I'm done being sick, doing Martin's (Gerard's) stuff , and after your stuff, of course. This is one of the too many promises I'd already made quite a while ago. (hence my moratorium on making ANY new ones :-p ) --Kim Bruning (talk) 20:55, 7 March 2008 (UTC) in short: No. But I promised ^^;;

I set up a completely independent client at [1] instead, as discussed. --_{tiny plastic} Grey Knight ⊖ 15:05, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Grey Knight++ --Kim Bruning (talk) 19:54, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Suggested changes in the WMF privacy policy

Hello,

I posted some suggestions for changes in the WMF privacy policy at the WMF site: [2]. The gist of the suggestions is to institute a requirement for notifying those registered users whose identifying info is being sought by subpoenas in third-party lawsuits. These suggestions are motivated in large part by a discussion that took place in January 2008 at the Village Pump (Policy) page [3] in relation to an incident where identifying IP data of sixteen Wikipedia users was released in response to such a subpoena. I also left a note about these proposal at Village Pump, WP:Village_pump_(policy)#Suggestions_for_changes_in_the_WMF_privacy_policy. Since you have participated in the January Village Pump discussion, I hope that you will contribute to the discussion of the current suggestions at the WMF website, [4]. Regards, Nsk92 (talk) 12:45, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Revert at Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle

I am fine with that, well, I would like an explanation. A) Who says private communication is "essential"? I never use it. Lots never use it. I think it subverts to some degree the GFDL, transparency and centralized discussion.

As well, it allows for a secret channel for "meat-puppeting" in some instances.

I am a newby, wolud you care to try to inform me, so that I come to a more enlightened place. I do value your thoughts, though I have difficulty overcoming my perpetual confusion. I was only guessing, you see. But at this time, I find private comms, (even e-mail) to be potentially disruptive. How have I mis-understood? (Not a complaint at all, just, if you can help me out, if it's not too much trouble, Thanks --Newbyguesses - Talk 21:11, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Both private and public communications are used extensively by everyone on wikipedia and at wikimedia in general (note also that systems like IRC are public too!). It is also very very useful. The wikipedia-en-l (mailing list) is still officially a source of policy (though i doubt anyone still uses it for that ;-) ). I did just post my reasoning on the talk page at WT:BRD by the way. Take a look and see if you agree! :-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 21:17, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

+ In general, you can never have too many ways to communicate with each other. Good communication eliminates misunderstandings and ensures that everyone can get along with each other that much better.

In the case of talking about the wiki, all on-wiki action must also be documented on-wiki, so if you do discuss something on irc or per e-mail or what have you, summarize it on the wiki as well, so that other people can see your reasoning. :-)

--Kim Bruning (talk) 21:20, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Thankyou for replying so promptly. (I also posted to talk:BRD.) Q- how does a private comm. get documented on-wiki as you say it should? A summary, which may be inaccurate, or disputed, or simply neglected and not missed?

Also, if many, many editors do "not" use private comms, how is that then "essential", and what are they missing out on?

Could it be that the "plodders" actually set the best pace? (just thinkin' out lard.)

Also, see the confusion (if you interested) caused by the mere possibility that private comms. (600emails) are being taken into account, in secret, by some arbitrators, at Rfa/Mantanmoreland. For instance, a question I posed in my#evidence at /Evidence (section 13), over a fortnight ago, has not been answered, and many other Users have clamoured for such an answer to no avail. waiting to be enlightened--Newbyguesses - Talk 21:35, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Some of those are complex questions. I've answered the general case first, at WT:BRD. If that goes in the right direction, I'll answer some more specific cases once we have that covered. Especially the arbcom case looks rather tricky and may require some research which I'd have to make time for. --Kim Bruning (talk) 21:54, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Are those IRC conversations logged and the transcripts put somewhere public? Obuibo Mbstpo (talk) 22:01, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Depends. Some of those channels ban public logging. Which is silly. ^^; --Kim Bruning (talk) 22:08, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

OK, Kim, thanks. I do not have the technical expertise to explore these issues on my own, just yet. Also, still rather busy. May we take this up again at a later date? I Will continue to watch 2 pages for any, and other replies. See ya at talk:IAR. (and Thanks to ALL.) --Newbyguesses - Talk 22:16, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

as a general comment on wikipedia-en-l, yes, it does discuss policy, among other things, but in general from a perspective not related to specific proposals. I find it a good place for a meta-discussion about how the community is proceeding on something or the general orientation of the project DGG (talk) 18:10, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Well Kim, this was what I was thinking, too— "sure, it's faster to discuss matters between a limited group of people. What it does, though, is exclude the rest of the community. -per: DGG (talk) 18:19, 9 March 2008 (UTC)—But, I am still thinking this out—

PS I am learning the Wiki Mantra! --Newbyguesses - Talk 19:54, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, that's why it's a cycle, right? You start with a limited group of people, and then you go back and talk with one more, and one more, and one more, until nobody else steps forward. That way, you are much more likely to talk with those people who want and need to be heard, and you are much more likely to find all of them. :-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 00:32, 10 March 2008 (UTC) ps. I should never have quoted Ivanova. OMG what have I started!?

Wikipedia:IP block exemption

You seem to be running the show here so I'll just ask you rather than reading a stack of talk pages...

Basically, how's progress on this? Has the usergroup been implemented? Is it possible to request an ip-block-exempt yet? dihydrogen monoxide (H₂0) 05:59, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Not yet. I'm taking it slow, since we've had some issues with previous proposals like this. --Kim Bruning (talk) 15:15, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Skype comments?

Did you talk on the phone with someone, and are giving me some transcripts or a summary? Obuibo Mbstpo (talk) 16:18, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Used skype chat. You have the chat log over a brief period where I was making a sequence of comments about Zenwhat's post. --Kim Bruning (talk) 16:26, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

MfD

Thanks, I commented there. My suggested resolution is for you to self-revert your close; it will be simpler than to go to Deletion Review. I do not use skype of chat, and would prefer discussion of this to be on-wiki. DGG (talk) 18:02, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Where is "there"? Oh well, I'll check your user contribs and find it. --Kim Bruning (talk) 23:18, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Great koan

Somebody sent this to me, recently. Thought it was great. I know you're a fan, so here...

The master went out [for a walk] and ran into an old woman who was carrying a basket.

The master asked, "Where are you going?"
The old woman said, "I'm taking bamboo shoots to Chao-chou (Joshu)."
The master said, "When you see Chao-chou what will you do?"

The old woman walked up and slapped the master.

The old woman ignored all rules! She actually slapped a Zen Master? How rude! ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 18:36, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

(S)he asked, and the lady answered truthfully. "What more do you want, mermaids"? ;-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 18:54, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

The Peanut Shell Award of Excellence

Earlier today, I mildly vandalized the "Assume Good Faith" page, replacing "Nutshell" with "Peanutshell" for no particular reason. Rather than chew me out when you undid my change, you responded in good humor and rightfully pointed out that peanuts are indeed tasty. As a result, I present you with this award. Congrats!!!-- Talk 06:44, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

The Peanut Award of Excellence Presented by IowaMutt

Wow, I have never had a peanut award before! I shall treasure it forever. ;-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 04:49, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

For this diff I guess. :-)

Barnstar Survey

Hi Kim, I replied to you by email but i'll post the reply here as well.

As a comment on section II in general: I find that none of the criteria really have anything to do with my barnstar granting behaviour. I tend to only give barnstars for single actions above and beyond the call of duty in a particular area, as opposed to any particular numeric criterion. For some of the criteria listed: I will actually tend to take users less seriously if they display userboxes or wikiproject memberships. :-/ What are you basing those criteria on?

This is really helpful feedback. The problem with researching gift\barnstar granting behaviour is that it is difficult to understand the process by which it happens. Certainly many of the barnstars that we've seen are of the spontaneous variety, or barnstars that commend a very particular action that is not represented in the survey. However, we've seen many others that were given out very impersonally and seemed to have been based solely on the edit count of a user or some exact achievement such as number of FA articles.

Think of the information exposed in this survey as a very crude approximation to what might possibly be appropriate in giving a real barnstar, and not as necessarily the perfect case. After all, the experiment needs to control for many factors, and I can't include all the possible factors that might influence your decision. Are there particularly important characteristics that your found missing and would help if they were included in the survey? Were there any that were completely useless? I found it interesting that you considered userboxes or wikiproject membership knowledge of little significance. You haven't found these characteristics to ever positively influencing your judgement of other editors? Bestchai (talk) 04:43, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I liked your Comment!

I liked your comment in response to Benjah-bmm27 request for adminship. You seem to understand the differences between policy and human judgement, a skill that only great leaders have!Thright (talk) 05:48, 12 March 2008 (UTC)thright

g'day kim....

I thought I'd drop you a note to let you know that having made a start on meta a while ago, I've now copied some of my ideas about ways to research article quality over time here - I chatted with OverlordQ about creating a bot to help, and she or he has produced a useful starting point already! (somewhat embarrassingly putting my efforts thus far to shame!)

I sense an appetite for taking a good look at this stuff at the moment amongst many, and wondered if I might solicit your views /ideas about what I'm thinking of doing.... it's nascent at the mo, but I hope the gist comes across, and it'd be cool to hear what you thought! (or better yet, you may be up for diving in and helping out!) - either way it was nice to chat on IRC a while ago, and it's nice to say Hi now! best, Privatemusings (talk) 02:57, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi looking for assistance

Hi, i had noticed you left a note in my request for mediation regarding to Dodo's case on abusing of his administrator powers. And you pointed out that i may expose my case on Wikipedia:Editor assistance, can you explain to me a little bit about this? . I would appreciate you do so. Thanks. --HappyApple (talk) 11:08, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes Dodo, seems to speak english as i can see from his page at WikiCommons. It is quite sad to see he blocked me from making edits on spanish wikipedia. I am considering placing my concern about this in Editor assistance. However since it is another language wikipedia, it seems it is few things can be done from here. Still looking for help. Thanks. --HappyApple (talk) 18:18, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

You I are

WP:UIAR - I rewrote the last paragraph again, and a few other things. Does it work for you?--Father Goose (talk) 11:19, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Another great idea. Let's have an "Understanding..." page for all policies! :-) (Actually, that might not work so well, though I have suggested in the past keeping the main policy pages simple, and putting interpretation, guidance and examples on subpages). Carcharoth (talk) 18:48, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

And/or an FAQ page. Lots of work though! :-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 21:21, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I wrote UIAR because IAR in its current form ("If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore it") is not all that... easy to understand. Other policies go beyond a nutshell and try to provide detailed rationale and guidance. IAR's been trapped in the Phantom Zone for too damn long.--Father Goose (talk) 03:01, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Not a vote, nosiree, we don't vote around here.

If it were not for the tragedy of so much time wasted, I'd be amused by [5]. We saw this before with the MfD for WP:PRX. Most Delete votes were based on "we don't vote," but when the result didn't match the not-vote, thanks to your closing, so many were outraged wasting more time. How can a closer ignore the numbers of our not-votes?!?! Now, we have similar arguments being presented on WP:RfAr. There is no clear definition of "consensus," nor any clear method of judging it, and this is going to continue to dog the community. WP:PRX would not have supplied a definition, but it would have -- if used, a very speculative affair -- provided quite a bit more information. One commentor on the RfAr page suggested looking at the !votes vs. length of time on Wikipedia, which would be a rough correction for participation bias. Wikipidia is running into problems that have been faced many times before by organizations of various kinds. Many don't survive that phase, most of the rest adopt traditional solutions that give up, essentially, the true democracy of free associations. The only solution I've ever seen that, according to my analysis, could succeed and keep fundamental policy intact, is, quite predictably, rejected immediately. However, that rejection isn't the end of it, because, by nature, it doesn't depend on central acceptance. It's built from the bottom up, from the periphery in, not from the top down. And it only takes a very few recognizing the possibilities to start. Having known this for about five years, it's fascinating to see how difficult it is to find one person who gets it. It took me a few years to accomplish that. One person. Now there are, at least, a dozen or so (only a couple are involved with Wikipedia.) Little by little, we go far.--Abd (talk) 18:37, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

This is the first I've heard of the delegable proxy system. Might be worth mentioning around a few more places. Carcharoth (talk) 18:47, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

User:Absidy "mentioned" it on the Talk page of every member of ArbComm, and a couple of other places, and got blocked for it (allegedly, or was it for sock puppetry? or for trolling? the record is a tad unclear); however he did complicate things by replying to the predictable "Stop canvassing" warning with "Too late, I'm done," and popping an image of an upraised finger next to it on the Talk page of the warning administrator. He's back, now, tempers having cooled, with a brand-new and properly linked username.--Abd (talk) 20:31, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I swung by to see if Kim had had a chance to take a look at my ideas for some research (see above) - and found this for the first time too. It looks very interesting, though sadly on first impression only has a bit of a 'could never happen' feel about it, despite its strengths. I'll take a closer look and think some more, but it certainly looks like some good work... cheers, Privatemusings (talk) 18:49, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Let it mellow. This is an idea that gets better with age. It can take about a year to realize even the first layer of implications. In any case, if the goal had been to do something, the proposal would have been a mistake. What it proposed could be done without any community permission: create a file format for proxy files, and a format for a central table. Absidy created templates that supposedly made it all simple to do, but, from my point of view, complicated it, and the system he created requires a host of files, all vulnerable, centrally placed and thus open to relatively easy MfD, vandalism, etc. I proposed something different, files which can be placed solely in user space, one file per user and any number of proxy tables, placed anywhere. That's all that was proposed. It was deliberately avoided, specifying how the tables would be used, it was stated as an experiment. I.e., people would develop applications, and, indeed, some of these would require community consent. But the fact is, at least in my opinion, that the deeper proposal (i.e., what might be done with the tables) requires no changes to policy, does not, in fact, require community permission, and can work with a relatively small number of users participating. In other words, it starts whenever it starts. If the "cabal" -- I agree that there is no cabal in the blatant sense, there is something more subtle (usually) -- tries to stop it, and if they have the power to do that here, it shifts off-wiki and functions quite as efficiently. This possibility, I can imagine, could upset some. I can hear the cries of "meat puppetry." However, as I said, no changes in policy are required. What the proposal would actually do is make meat puppetry and sock puppetry irrelevant. If it's done on-wiki, it's useless for meat puppetry and sock puppetry. The quickest objection that always is made (I've been proposing this for years in various organizations), for on-line applications, is "sock puppets." That, however, requires "voting" to matter. Doesn't it? Now, suppose policy prohibits abusive sock puppetry, as it does. Does someone painstakingly build a network of sock puppets, all linked by proxy files? How long would such remain undetected? How much work would it take to maintain it? And, in the end, can such a network develop convincing arguments any better than the single user manipulating all the socks? Somehow, I think the reverse. I think that networks of real people, including people coming from many different points of views and backgrounds, will be able to argue more persuasively and efficiently.

If you google "delegable proxy," or "delegated voting," or "liquid democracy," or, most recently, a peer-reviewed publication under the rubric of "delegated democracy," most of what you will find will look like "voting" applications. But "FA/DP," my own neologism for Free Associations with Delegable Proxy, might as well have been designed for Wikipedia. In a Free Association (classic example: Alcoholics Anonymous), because consensus is valued (and necessary to get much done), voting is really only polling to measure the level of consensus, and actions are taken by "servants," who are not compelled to follow any particular standard. (The saying in AA is "All it takes to start a meeting is a resentment and a coffee pot," and AA harnessed dissent to create spectacular growth. Don't agree with what the secretary of a meeting does? Start your own meeting, and since no property accumulation is required, it's trivial to start a meeting. Just find a place and list it and show up. Coffee pot is actually optional.)

The untested element (at least on a large scale) is delegable proxy. However, the basic principles are quite old. Proxies are chosen representatives, not elected except in a technical sense, and the system proposed here would have given proxies no special powers, other than the power to advise. I wrote that, in fact, I'd oppose such a grant of powers. Quite simply, they are synapses in a communications network that can efficiently sense its environment and rapidly develop cooperative response. Ahem. I could, indeed, go on and on, I've been working on this for twenty years. I'd much prefer some small demonstrations, minimally intrusive; they wouldn't be offensive or disruptive at all except for something like the semi-hysteria that the MfD for WP:PRX generated. What I'm starting to suggest to those who express interest is, quite simply, let me know if you are interested in being informed about projects as they arise. I will personally participate in nothing that violates policy, nor will I encourage it. However, I will note that I don't have a patent on this organizational technology. Let me put it this way: if Esperanza or AMA had used this for organizational structure, they would have been bullet-proof. Esperanza, in particular, had lost momentum and seems to have not had sufficient support from its own members, but ... my guess is that this is because the bureaucracy created was too burdensome. Delegable proxy is different. It's designed to be extremely efficient. God help us if some substantial group that really wants to damage the project picks up on this first. (Fortunately, another of the characteristics of FA/DP organizations is that they can form very rapidly, if enough people realize the importance. Without that realization, progress does take place, but glacially.)

Ah, yes, the Wikipedia article on Delegable proxy was AfDd promptly when WP:PRX was proposed, as was the article on Mikael Nordfors, a European inventor of what is really the same system. The article, Liquid democracy was originally started, I think, in 2003 and AfDd. In 2005, blissfully unaware of the prior article, I recreated it as a stub, but never again edited it, others did, and there it stood until something like a month ago. In my opinion, by current standards, it was of marginal notability. (Absidy moved it to "Delegable proxy," a more descriptive name.) "They" really did try pretty hard to delete all trace of it. What a waste of time! "They" really should name a proxy to handle it!

My apologies to Kim for dumping all this on his Talk page, he can ask me to stop at any time. I just think he's brilliant, and he's got some nice friends. He, of course, is the one who first placed a Rejected tag on WP:PRX. He knew what would happen. I wasn't so sure, but did think it probable. Nice thing about experiments: if you pay attention, they never fail.--Abd (talk) 21:14, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't mind people posting here, but it is always nice if they can keep their comments somewhat condensed, if/when possible. O:-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 21:20, 13 March 2008 (UTC) Also, consider using links and diffs instead of repeating parts of your original text. Or edit the PRX page to include your arguments or some such, saves time, that. :-)

Thanks for that, Abd. Very interesting! Will have to think about it for a bit, but will try and keep an eye out for this if it ever comes to anything. Carcharoth (talk) 23:03, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Economist article

Hi Kim, I saw the link on your page to this article, I would have actually liked to have read Vice-presidents who have shot people and The role of clowns in modern society :-) --Fredrick day (talk) 23:13, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I think the VP one was a category. See here and the CfD of the real category here. The other one, The role of clowns in modern society was an article, and the AfD is at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The role of clowns in modern society, and looking at the deleted article it is, unfortunately, complete and utter nonsense. However, this journey into the hinterland of Wikipedia brought me to Wikipedia:Deleted articles with freaky titles. :-) Carcharoth (talk) 23:26, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Your approach at WP:CCC

Hey Kim, I was just watching your approach at WP:CCC and it seems like, while our overall wiki-philosophies have some similarities, we have opposite styles in handling stuff... I am all about, let's get something going, let's stir up the pot, propose a radical overhaul, and do it now, and if it doesn't meet success right away, start throwing inflammatory words around, all the while carelessly doing other erratic behaviors such as changing usernames, making strange edits, etc. Whereas, you chill out more and offer to wait 24 hours, mention you're eagerly awaiting their reply, and such. It drives me crazy to wait around like that. Yet, you have managed to be bold without people hauling you to WP:ANI (in the middle of that sentence, I realized, "Oh, wait a minute...") Well, you know what I'm saying. People respect you and work with you, even though they may not really get the philosophy of the wiki. It's kinda like you show them how it works. And people can watch your example and understand the true nature of WP:BRD as it is supposed to be.

Anyway, I get too impatient and easily discouraged, to the point where I throw up my hands and say, "Well what the heck, all is lost anyway, might as well throw in this parting shot" and then everything I said is discredited. I've probably sabotaged myself in that way on many occasions. Hmm, I'm not sure what to do, it seems like things move so slowly here, and I've been here for a lot longer than it looks. Sometimes I wonder, though, if it consumes such a large amount of time to successfully make even a small revision that will stay at WP:CCC, are there enough people like you to create the change we need? But maybe you will change the culture just by how you act. Well, I can give that a try too. Hmm, should I start anew under another username, and create this new persona? Nah, that just draws more suspicion, I guess.

Anyhoo, I'm not so stubborn that I'll keep trying stuff that doesn't work indefinitely. In fact, I've been known to radically shift courses and approaches on many occasions. Although sometimes, I just run out of patience and want to force the issue. It's like losing at chess. I'll typically do something suicidal, just to get it over with, where someone else might try to keep things as complicated as possible, patiently looking for an opening or for their opponent to make a mistake, which will allow them to turn the tide. Wow. Well, I'll think on these things. Obuibo Mbstpo (talk) 00:20, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Regarding HappyApple

Hello! I was reading your last comment on this article [[6]], and its quiet sad to see Administrators behaving like that. Not only has HappyApple being blocked by orders of Dodo, but this is part of a long trend of abuses commited by Dodo and some of his friends, that have made Wikipedia their own turf. Do you know where can I denounce this? I'm sure that all of the Wikipedias have some sort of supra-national authority that can deal with this type of abuses. Messhermit (talk) 03:03, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Question

Hi, Kim, thanks for stopping by on discussion at mediation cabal. But since discussion is becoming larger and larger. Is there any way i could find a proper advocate soon?. I have been looking on Editor assistance, member's list. But almost everyone's users page, they seem to be taking long vacation (or being just too busy). If you know any good advocate who can be willing to take my case i would be glad if you could contact me with him or her. Cheers.--HappyApple (talk) 09:08, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi again Kim, thank you for your moral support. Although some of your words were quite few. =D

As for now it is my wish if you could let the case of Help me wikipedia is making me feel nervous, as a case near to be closed or near to be filed.

I was looking for some sort of supra national authority of where to go when InterWiki affairs turn to be in some sort of show trial. But it seems as you said, someone picked up the case (but in spanish wiki- i dont know who or how, but Dodo and petronas decided to walk away) and things went on, and it seems the dispute is quite over. But i wish you could store it on the records (the request for mediation cabal). can you spare this for a friend?. I also wish you could answer Messhermit's words, i really dont know if such thing happen, do wikipedians have a place to go where to solve their inter wiki affairs. Cheers =), i keep up with your breathe note =)--HappyApple (talk) 23:36, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi again, i dont want to be unpolite, but in my oppinion i think translation from Mushii_W on #wikipedia-es is a little bit biased. it can be accurate but i think, it is missing the point. (As the user in question . Gaeddal is no longer participating on spanish wikipedia. retired user. In my oppinion, i wish all of this could be solved assuming good faith.

My personal request, as i think you are active on mediation cabal, is to let this case closed. Like i said, it was an unconventional request (i didn't know what to do), but it seems that if i have a problem like this in the future (but i dont want to have it anymore), i would rather discuss it in the proper place. Like i said, i want to walk away from any kind of dispute and not extend the discussion. Cheers, --HappyApple (talk) 03:57, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi, I left a short statement in cabal mediation regarding your last post about gaedal's arguments against me. It is good to listen involved parts, isn't it?

I wish you could assist me in letting the case closed in english wikipedia as it has already been solved on spanish wikipedia. Dodo retired user, and the user who blocked me on the first place (petronas) retired user, are not participating on Spanish wiki anymore, and they seem to left the project.

You know, there are many words which can be said during discussion. (specially on cabal mediation). But i would appreciate if you can give me a chance regarding my reputation (as it is the first time i explained and discussed about it on cabal). As i dont wish my reputation could be subject of distrust in future. cheers --HappyApple (talk) 04:53, 15 March 2008 (UTC) p.d. i am pretty sure that if i look for help in the future, i would be very careful on what i say, and i will remain calm and wise.--HappyApple (talk) 04:53, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Nobody stopping you either way, I think. --Kim Bruning (talk) 09:32, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

You haven't addressed my point

Listing the characters that meaning absolutely nothing to 99% of our readers in a separate glossary ... Tony (talk) 02:36, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, that is the main problem, especially when taken to extremes as in the Guqin article; there, it's even worse because of the narrow column that opens the article, squeezed by the infoblot. I'm no monoglot philistine; I can transliterate Russian and Greek well enough. And I think east-Asian characters have a certain beauty. No, my concern is one of a functional reading psychologist who thinks that it's worth exploring better ways of doing two things at once: (1) retaining the utility of non-Latin script sources for specialist research; and (2) freeing the main text of clutter that has absolutely no meaning to almost all English-language readers (it is the English-language WP), and allowing people to focus more easily on the phonological information that is currently provided in the forest). Listing all original non-Latin-script items in one section (a solution I quickly arrived at after interactions concerning my rogue edit of Guqin) seems to be a solution to both, and might even assist the specialist researcher. I note that specialists also have a link bottom left to the equivalent article in the Chinese-language WP.

Compare this side by side with this. Which looks better on the page? Which is more accessible to the generalist readership? Which is easier to read and comprehend even for specialists?

The sample freed-up text would, of course, include a new section—probably at the bottom—listing all of the Chinese-character items and their equivalents. In addition, I think the two Wiktionary items that I retained should be removed and listed in a glossary as well. Tony (talk) 03:25, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

A topic too large for this margin to contain...

Something like Fermat's last theorem? - Dan Dank55 (talk) 03:31, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

O:-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 04:15, 15 March 2008 (UTC) If someone asks me, I can certainly expand on that comment, but it's a bit of work and clutters up the page, and not worth it unless someone is really curious. :-)

Response to mediation and end to dispute

Hi Kim, sorry if i seem to pull out new words in your discussion page.

But i wanted to make an statement as i think it could be a good idea to put a message regarding this: -> the dispute is over, thus making the case closed.

I clearly understand you need to deal with many things and not just my case. But if you could spare this for me, i would appreciate it. (as it seems you are active dealing with things under that scope). (Further text, pending to be copied as the aftermath on mediation cabal discussion page regarding this subject including as requested)

i also want to let the following info plus statements i have made on Dihydrogen Monoxide's discussion page be part of the paper trial too (closing arguments and aftermath of the dispute), where i ask publicly apologies to all parts involved (including Dodo) and i made a commitment to do not cause any more incidents like the one ocurred at mediation cabal discussion page. (On the same thread i provided Dihydrogen_Monoxide with references of my arguments so my closing and final argument could be neutral and fairly balanced).

I also want to say, I am sorry if my words or actions (over these days) appeared to be looking for a place or forum shopping like you suggested. (At first had i didn't breathe as you said =S ). But well, right now, as you know, i have totally disengaged from discussion (per Disengage).

However i believe that (forum shopping) was not the case (i just were looking a place or trying to find an advocate who can be willing to take my case, however, i had to admit, it was not the place nor the way or proper manner to find one.

As you suggested me i could have contacted personally someone in editor assistance though. However as arguments, and evidences against me showed up, it is very little that me or advocate could have done to defend my case, and i have to admit, that i had being wrong. i admit over the course of the dispute i over reacted too and i acted paranoic.

Is my personal commitment to do not cause any more trouble or incidents of any kind. And since there aren't any previous incidents like this reported from me, i would ask you give me a chance about it (under assume good faith). I understand i can't excuse so easily myself from that, but i have to admit that although i am not a newcomer, I am still learning how to understand the way wikipedia experience works on. Next time i certainly be very careful and more politely on what i say, and how i should approach other users. Including any wikis (en, es, etc) [and final statement pending to be copied here on mediation cabal discussion page]

Finally i want to request, the following phrase could be added to mediation cabal discussion entry where i posted my case.

(Closing argument below, pending be readed by mediation cabal participants and copied into discussion page regarding HappyApple's entry)

The preceding statement made by HappyApple, closes the case. He asked for it to mediation cabal participants Kim Brunning and Dihydrogen_Monoxide (the user who picked up the case on the first hand).

Parties involved on the dispute already walked away from discussion and the creator of this thread, HappyApple has already addressed apologies to affected users[7] and has commited to do not let such dispute happen again.

Plus, in aims to let this matter be settled down and end the dispute, his attempts to gather or request assistance about such topic were dismissed by his own will, on the following pages. user Goodfriend100, user Hersfold User The_Thadman

Assuming good faith, as this is the first time and the last time (as HappyApple's commitment on Dihydrogen Monoxide's discussion page) that an incident from such kind had come from him. HappyApple's requests, the case be closed and his reputation be cleared. It is suggested that no other third parties continue this matter per HappyApple's request. Peace--HappyApple (talk) 14:05, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

This is an open wiki; as long as you behave within the local community norms, and as long as you are honest about things; you are allowed to post whatever you like. --Kim Bruning (talk) 21:32, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

That's fine to me, i had understood it clearly. I am very sure all that mess and incident cascades will never happen again. At least i can say this for myself. Not for other users. :) --HappyApple (talk) 05:19, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

No worries

Kim, no problem with the timing and the changes. I have tried to incorporate more of your suggestions while trying to keep the chart brief and simple. Cheers! --Kevin Murray (talk) 23:07, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Discussion of mediator

Kim, I don't remember where the discussion was held regarding the experience of a mediator. Probably one of the discussions I got into when working at 3O. I do remeber that it was a raging battle with some experienced wikipedians and a newbie had volunteered to mediate. --Kevin Murray (talk) 23:22, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

MedCab

• Hey Kim, can I have a word with you on the #wikipedia-medcab channel? Thanks. Steve Crossin (talk) 05:59, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, Ni

As in the Knights who Say Such Things. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 21:51, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

WP:USER

Thanks, but why not be bold and do it yourself? :) When a guideline is confusing, one of the best things that can be done to fix it, is to have someone that's confused by it, write it to be more understandable. :) Or if you're nervous about changing a guideline page directly, you could suggest new wording at the talkpage, and then if no one disagrees, you can go ahead to "make it so." --Elonka 20:59, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi Kim

Just a notification of what I just wrote: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Prem Rawat/Evidence#Kim Bruning's role --Francis Schonken (talk) 06:35, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Re: judgment etc.

Hello. In my post to that guidelines page, I was questioning your assessment of the situation on that page, not any actions you had taken. Firstly, Danny remains an administrator of this wiki, which is the fundamental initial requirement for admission to that channel. Whilst he may have said some things which make Board Members and employees of the Foundation uncomfortable, and whilst they may take it upon themselves to fling terms his way like "disgruntled employee", that is essentially irrelevant to his continued presence in the channel. To the best of my knowledge, he has not abused privileged information gained through his adminship on Wikipedia, or from his presence in the admins channel, and has not professed any intention to do so.

The question of whether what he has publicly said was privileged information gained as a result of his employment with the Foundation, and whether he has misused that information, is a matter between him and the Foundation. If the Foundation feels that his continued presence on the projects is unacceptable, then it is their prerogative to remove his adminship and/or ban him (in which case, then it would be prudent to remove his access). It is not the role of the IRC ops to take action in lieu of any action by the Foundation, especially not where the only behaviour complained of is neither in relation to IRC, or the English Wikipedia.

In relation to the example I gave of your access in the channel, and the language I used, I'm sorry, I let my annoyance show, and was rude. I hope you can forgive me. In any event, you still have access to the channel, despite no longer being an admin, because you have never shown any misuse of the channel. Danny, similarly, has never shown any misuse of the channel, yet he remains an admin. In the past, we have removed the access of former admins who have shown themselves to be untrustworthy, but not current admins. In that light, this situation is unprecedented and not straightforward. - Mark 06:37, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't see what's wrong with removing the access of an untrustworthy and current admin. He's a known leaker of information that should be considered privileged. You wouldn't let a known pedophile babysit your kids and you shouldn't let someone who is known to abuse his access to privileged information have access to, well, privileged information. John Reaves 07:17, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

personal opinion pieces in WP space?

I think not. But those clowns are committed to turning Wikipedia into an indiscriminate collection of trivia and are opposed to any kind of intellectual approach anyway, and they're in the majority (or at least make it appear that way), so I guess it doesn't matter. I'd prefer a project where articles and essays start out in userspace and first have to qualify for inclusion in the official canon, not the other way around. However, apparently I'm alone with this opinion. Dorftrottel (troll) 09:27, March 22, 2008

As I said, Wikipedia is hopeless anyway, so it makes no difference. There's no hope for intelligent divine intervention either, so yes, let's enable the idiots some more, in the hope the whole thing will break apart a bit quicker than it will anyway, thanks to those trivia-hugging shitheads. Dorftrottel (criticise) 09:37, March 22, 2008

Cool down! :-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 10:22, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Please stop with the smileys, they make me aggressive. :-) More to the point: I don't think I am very confused, but thanks for giving it a shot. Dorftrottel (warn) 10:31, March 22, 2008