Talk:Omar Khadr

correction

These three edits were described as fixing errors, but actually introduced some new assertions at odds with what I have read.

The article now says: Human Concern International was a Canadian charity. Actually Human Concern International is still extant. And it is a British charity. Further, Ahmed Said Khadr, was not an employee -- so far as I can determine, during the half dozen or so years he worked for them he remained a volunteer. HCI says he was a volunteer, not an employee.

I believe it was a mistake to remove the reference to the 2002 National Post article. When I first introduced this reference three years ago, I was not aware that linking to mirrors of articles that did not show they were authorized by the copyright holder was counter to policy. So the URL http://www.hvk.org/articles/1202/293.html should not be used in the reference. However, it is counter to policy to remove references that contain title, publication, author, date of publication. So I am replacing it, just changing it from {{cite news}} to {{cite paper}}. Geo Swan (talk) 04:15, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

• Isabel Vincent (December 28 2002). "The Good Son". National Post. {{cite journal}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Cite journal requires |journal= (help)

There is another edit I have problems with. Contributor's edit summary said: Incarceration at Guantánamo Bay - since there seem to be conflicting arguments on this, this statement should be directly sourced. I am completely mystified on what possible basis this contributor asserts "there are conflicting arguments" on whether Omar Khadr was treated as an adult in spite of being fifteen years old when captured. The identity of the three boys held in Camp Iguana is well known. The other two dozen minors were all treated as adults. Geo Swan (talk) 04:23, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

• • "Mystified?" Perhaps it would help to read the section as it currently is written to clear up any mystification:

Bryan Del Monte, the United States Department of Defense deputy director for political development and international issues in the Office of Detainee Affairs, gave a press conference following his return from testifying before the United Nations Committee against torture. [16] During this press conference he asserted that Khadr, and two other youths, were incarcerated separately from adults, The question is not Khadr's age when captured; it is whether he has been treated as a minor or as an adult in captivity. That is the statement that needs citation as it appears, as per the current edits, that there is a discrepancy between what human rights activists/Khadr's lawyers claim and what the US government claims. Holding Khadr separately from adults denotes separate treatment from adults. So, the claim that "However, Khadr was treated as an adult" needs sourcing. Without either reference or qualifiers, it is either a {POV} mistake or another factual misinterpretation. BWH76 (talk) 01:13, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Simple. Del Monte was not telling the truth. It is well documented that all three of the teenage boys who had been held in Camp Iguana, since you read the references to them I am, again, mystified as to how you could possibly suggest that Khadr was also held there, continued to be held there, after that camp was shut down, when the three boys who were held there, Naqibullah, Muhammad Ismail Agha and Asadullah Abdul Rahman were released on January 29 2004. Geo Swan (talk) 04:44, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

• • "Del Monte was not telling the truth." That is a strong, strong accusation. What is your source for this accusation? Or is this your interpretation of events? Unless there is a specific reference making this accusation, it is quite clear that there is an obvious {POV} concern.

As for this focus on Camp Iguana: I'm not sure exactly how I can make this more clear - the question is not about where he was held, but how he was treated.

You state that you are "mystified as to how you could possibly suggest that Khadr was also held there." Please specifically point out where I've made any sort of claim where Khadr was held. I have not made any edits nor mentioned any concerns as to where Khadr has been held. The concerns I raised are:

1) That one child detainee stated that "the two years he spent there were the only education he had ever had, and he reported being sorry to leave." What is the source for these claims? It is not the BBC articles referenced - there are no such claims in those articles. Who said that "it was the only education he ever had?" Who said that anyone was "sorry to leave?" Where are the references for these two claims?

2) "Khadr was treated as an adult." If there is any discrepancy between what human rights groups/Khadr's lawyers state and what the US government states in how Khadr was treated, then no one can definitively state that he was "treated as an adult" without violating {POV}. By stating one side is correct and that the other is lying, without independent third-party sources as references, clearly demonstrates a biased point of view and original research. BWH76 (talk) 08:37, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Allow me to point out that there is a difference between stating that someone is not telling the truth, and calling them a liar. People utter untruths all the time: (1) because they were misinformed; (2) because they were suffered a failure of memory; (3) because they didn't understand their briefing -- even though the briefing may have been accurate. I didn't state a motive for why Del Monte was recorded stating something that was untrue. I don't think I owe anyone a retraction for calling Del Monte a liar, when I never called him a liar. I don't think I owe anyone an apology for stating that what he said wasn't true -- when no one can claim what he said was true.

The discussion above sets out a false dichotomy between the claims of human rights workers and the assertions of DoD officials. The article says Del Monte's assertion is at odds with other accounts. Those other accounts include other DoD accounts. Geo Swan (talk) 02:31, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Military authorities say the only juveniles at the detention center were the three who were kept in a separate facility from the main prison camp with more freedom and activities. They were released in January 2004.

The so-called "human rights" groups are making too much out of this.

The AR-190-8 Army regulations on handling detainees set 15 as the age where they no longer need special treatment. (See: 6-2.(4)) He wasn't a kid anymore, and so he can eat and sleep like an adult.

It was updated in 1997. They didn't just make that up.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 03:36, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Time in Bagram

We have nothing on his months spent at Bagram right now. I think it's notable that Moazzam Begg's book Enemy Combatant says that Khadr was singled out for extensive work duties by the soldiers who called him "Buckshot Bob" and and referred to him as being a murderer.[1] Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 23:13, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Not exactly a credible source.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 03:39, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Why wouldn't a book published by Simon & Schuster be considered a reliable source? Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 05:01, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Simon & Schuster isn't vouching for his integrity. Do you think they put a polygraph on him?

If you want to say "Moazzam Begg claims" then that's something else, but we've got plenty of that already. If there's really something to this, you ought to be able to find a better source than the likes of Begg. It's likely that people are dead because of him.

Every fascist who's been detained claims he was tortured. Even the hunger-striking Islamists that the Canadians detained say that. Eventually you'll want an objective source.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 05:57, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Speaking of wanting a source, do you have a source for claiming that people are dead because of Begg? I seem to recall him being released without charge - and rather than blowing up a supermarket, he published a book and is a civil rights activist. Even if it were true that he had blood on his hands, why does that make him any less authoritative of an authority of what happened in Bagram than anybody else? Would you not trust the word of any American soldier at Bagram who had killed an Afghan? Nobody has disputed Begg's claims, and they certainly don't seem even vaguely ludicrous. It's not like he's claiming something controversial, like Khadr was set ablaze or something, he's stating that Khadr was called names and given extra work duty...if you can find a veritable source (ie, an officer from Bagram, a senior ranking administrative officer, another inmate or some such) who disputes the claim, I'd be happy to include mention of that. But as it stands "omg, a Muslim claims it's true, it could be a lie!" sounds more like patent racism and trying to denigrate Begg's book. I've not read any reports that anything in Begg's book is a lie, so there is no reason to assume this is. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 06:25, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

That bogus "racism" label isn't going to help you. You ought to know by now that there's a difference between Islam and Islamic extremism.

Being released without charge only means they didn't have a charge for him. Although some of his pre-GTMO activities were shady, and contributed to the jihad ("a sympathizer, a recruiter and a financier"), it would have meant years of stalling tactics, and they probably believed he wasn't worth it. (Note that the link quotes someone who doubts his veracity.)

But my comment was about his post-GTMO appearances as a so-called "civil rights" activist telling naive Muslims that this is a war against Islam itself. He doesn't personally tell them they need to grab a suicide vest but at least one of the films he appears in ("21st Century CrUSAders") is itself clearly a call to arms.

It was probably seen by the 2005 London bombers. (It's known with certainty that those bombers watched films like it, but we don't have the full list.) It, and others, were distributed all over the world. Some jihadis in Iraq were indoctrinated with it. And if you ever see it yourself, please note that Begg never tells his fascist friends that they need to respect the Geneva Conventions.

If you ever venture into his old bookstore, be sure to pick up the pamphlet on "the best way to kill homosexuals." Seriously, no one who supports this guy ever cared about "civil rights".

But if you want to quote him as some kind of authority, then please go right ahead. The more these articles are pumped up with glaringly obvious agit-prop, the more complete a picture we get of the critics of the war. They never tell their friends either that they need to respect the Geneva Conventions.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 17:26, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

You're now attributing the books for sale in a store where his work is for sale to him? I mean, he may be Islamist, but to suggest that he's responsible for what others have written seems counter-intuitive to your other point. The link says nothing about Begg owning the shop, managing the shop or even working as a clerk at the shop, it says the shop sells work by Begg, and that it sells works about killing homosexuals. The military interrogator in your quoted article describes him as "We compared him to somebody who went off to Spain during the civil war — more of a romantic than some sort of ideologically steeled fighter." - so that puts him roughly on the level of Lord Byron, should we refuse to accept Byron's accounts of the Greek War of Independence, stating that he's basically a terrorist because of it and "people are surely dead because of him"? Begg may not be a saint, but there is nothing to suggest that his accounts of meeting Khadr at Bagram are untrue. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 17:45, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Begg is a former owner of the store. Nothing indicates a change from when he was there before. If a bookstore owner chooses to stock a wide variety of books then we might say he's interested in having a wide variety. It wouldn't mean he likes every single book. If he serves only a narrow interest then that says something else. It would be like a small Christian bookstore stocking The Turner Diaries but none of the moderate Christian books. Do you really think that wouldn't be a concern? We make distinctions between bookstores that stock some explicit books on sex, and those that stock only pornography, and then further, those that include kiddie porn. The fact that Begg commissioned and published Dhiren Barot's book tells us quite a bit about him.

Byron's war experiences were from before the GCs, but I doubt he'd have supported a movement that works the way al Qaeda does. If he did, that would be notable, and nothing he said could be taken as fact without checking other sources.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 18:28, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Come to think of it, I doubt that historians study Lord Byron's diaries without taking his bias into account.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 18:33, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

And that's why we cite where the reference to "Buckshot Bob" is from, so that interested people can look up Moazzam Begg and see who he is. But that doesn't mean that we say "Probably an Islamist terrorist himself, Begg claimed without any verification from American sources, that Khadr was called Buckshot Bob". If the owner of a TD-peddling Christian book store owner told me that homosexuality causes cancer, or that he saw the FBI murder a puppy, I might not believe him and would agree with you that his "somewhat incredulous claims" should be tempered. But if the same guy just told me that he had mailed a letter to Timothy McVeigh three years before the bombing, I'd probably take his word for it. If Begg were claiming that Khadr was disfigured from his daily sessions having hot coals applied to his genitals, we'd temper the claim. But the simple claim that he had a nickname among guards there, and did some manual labour, doesn't seem to border on the "ridiculous" statements that could've been made - or the ones that are directly contradicted by other facts. In short, with absolutely no reason to believe that a claim is likely to be fabriated, there's no reason to allege that an ad hominem attack against the author of the claim should be given any weight. I'm pretty much done with this argument, unless other editors with a history of editing this article (Geo Swan, BWH) come forward and agree with you that we shouldn't trust anything Begg says - then I think I'm done with this train of thought.

P.S. even your new link doesn't support your argument that Begg owns/owned the bookstore, in fact it doesn't even mention him - it just talks about the bookstore. But that's irrelevant. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 19:02, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

The second link was to show what the bookstore hasn't changed much since back when he owned it. There are other sources that say he was a co-owner at the time, and I didn't think it worth documenting in a talk page. He even admits to it. The relevant part is that Begg has a history of consorting with violent extremists. He is not a trustworthy source.

Your comparison to someone mailing a letter to McVeigh before the bombing is apt but it makes my case more than yours. There isn't much of a problem saying he had a nickname, but saying he "was singled out for extensive work duties" tracks with the common torture theme they're pushing. It's as likely to have fabricated as it is to be true. The fact that such an action could sound reasonable doesn't change that the story is coming from a worm like Moazzam Begg.

But go ahead and add it if you like. Just be sure that everyone knows the only source is a friend of terror. He certainly isn't a "civil rights" activist.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 19:58, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I suspect nicknames were common, both for referring to fellow GIs, and for captives. IIRC Dilawar was "Timmy" (as per South Park(?)). One of Clive Stafford Smith clients, one who was mentally ill, was "The General". We know that Iraqi "ghost prisoner" was "Triple-X".

Both Abu Qatada and Moazzam Begg called on kidnappers to free their western captives. It could be argued that Abu Qatada's entreaty to free hostages was disinenguous and self-serving, because he was in custody in the UK, fighting extradition. But Begg had already been released. Doesn't that suggest he was sincere? What ulterior motive could he have had?

As to Khadr being called a "murderer". A couple of years ago camp authorities seemed to be experimenting with letting JTF-GTMO staff be interviewed. I saw the BBC pose a couple of questions to a young guard.

1. He first complained that guards weren't given enough scope to respond to captives who spat on them.
2. Then he paused a couple of seconds, and said, Half of these guys killed a US soldier you know.

My reading of the transcripts is that Khadr is the only captive who could have been accused of killing a GI. At the time of his comment US losses in Afghanistan was about 200. (It is about 400 now.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Geo Swan (talk • contribs) 23:52, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I could argue that Begg was just doing smart PR when pleading for those hostages to be freed but even that's not the case here. Those particular hostages are vehement critics of the U.S., and they're very sympathetic to the terrorists. A Muslim Brotherhood leader also pleaded for their release, calling their organization an ally against Israel. So, it's quite natural for Begg to have joined him.

I'm sure most of the guards at GTMO haven't read the dossiers of the detainees, and they just make assumptions. A lot of anti-GTMO critics think the U.S. waterboarded detainees at GTMO.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 05:24, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

The Firefight

It's described as a six-man team that entered the "mud compound", isn't it? So that's Christopher Speer, Special Forces Sgt. Layne Morris, Scott Hansen (who was awarded a Bronze Star for his actions during the firefight), Major Mike Silver and...two unknowns?

Also, it's worth noting that Mike Silver reported in April 2007 that ""I came to a wall, heard a noise that sounded like a gunshot," when the troops moved towards the house, just before the grenade appeared. I don't want OR in the article, but the talk page is a good place for speculating on how that fits into the accidentally-released testimony of "OC-1" that he entered the building, took "directed" fire and saw a grenade appear, then shot the unknown Muja and then shot the kneeling Khadr. If we assume that the "general story" is correct as given in that link which seemed to interview the soldiers involved, and only the presence of another survivor with a rifle was covered up, it sounds like OC-1 couldn't have been Speer (obviously), Silver or Hansen (who were both outside, and Silver describes two soldiers "in front of him" as shooting.). Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 21:36, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Looking at it, we see Silver mention that "Three Delta Force" soldiers entered, followed by him, followed by Speer. (Morris had been medEvaced at that point, so only the five of them left). Of the five remaining people, who could those first three have been? Obviously Morris, Silver and Speer are out, which leaves Hansen and the two "unknowns". However, Hansen is not Delta Force, he's attached to the 19th Special Forces Group. Assuming it is indeed a six-man crew that set out (+2 interpreters), then I would simply assume that the Toronto Star and/or Silver misspoke and mistakenly identified Hansen as being Delta Force. I think it's safe to assume that Hansen and the two unknowns entered the compound, while Silver and Speer remained behind them, after Morris had been airlifted. Of course, the "accidentally released report" insisted that three names not be identified, and we seem to only be dealing with two unknown soldiers here - aren't we? (Who may or may not be Delta Force, since Silver's quote already screwed up its identification of Hansen). Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 22:35, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Interesting to note that as of November 07, Worthington had referred to Five men being inside the compound, while only three bodies were reported being initially seen upon entering the compound by Captain/Major Mike Silver. This accounts for the missing Mujahideen who survived the bombed and fired his rifle at the American soldiers after they entered the compound. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 22:59, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Also note that Worthington says that Khadr was tended by the unit's medic, implying someone who was present during the firefight. Since Speer was billed as the "medic" in the media, I'm not sure if one of the four remaining soldiers treated him, or they left him while waiting for reinforcements who brought a medic. Also note that if it was one of the four remaining soldiers who patched him up, then that means the unnamed Sergeant who gives the quote is either Hansen (A Master Sgt, tsk) or one of the two unidentified soldiers, giving us a rank.Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 23:16, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Worthington mentions Khadr was shot by an "M4", which made me assume we were discussing an M4A1, but finding out that he was "Buckshot Bob" at Bagram, I wonder if perhaps he was shot with a Benelli M4 instead. Any of the documentation mention his wounds? "bullet holes" in his chest implies it was the carbine, but Buckshot Bob implies the shotgun - it would actually make a difference since the shrapnel wound that caused his blindness was from the shotgun, and thus he wasn't "injured" when US troops entered. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 23:29, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Worthington's article has more than a couple errors it seems, note that he refers to Silver wasling "into the compound behind Sgt Speer" and seeing Khadr, after Speer had already been wounded and was lying on the ground with a head wound. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 00:42, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Regarding whether they were "Delta Force" or "Green Berets". The earliest accounts I read said they were Green Berets -- a force that dates back to JFK's administration, or before. I don't know which Special Forces units are considered tougher, or better trained, or who is given the missions that requires the most initiative and discretion. I don't know why the USA needs so many different kinds of special forces. In addition the military has Navy SEALS, Army Rangers, and possibly several others.

Mud walled compounds are the standard architecture in rural Afghanistan. Consistently of a 3 or 4 metre tall windowless mud wall. Inside rooms for human, and for domestic animals, line the walls, facing a central courtyard. An extended family, with a patriarch, uncles, cousins all living inside. For reasons of family propriety a smaller detached building might be constructed for lodging guests, to keep the wives and daughters safe from prying eyes. How large are these compounds? Are they larger than a baseball in-field? I don't know. OC-1's account has this compound containing an "alley". Might this just have been a gap between one set of room built lining the outer wall, and another? Possibly between one son's apartment and another's? Or between the human apartments and the animal sheds?

According to the National Post article, The Good Son, from December 2002, Silver was just a Captain at the time.

My reading was that Morris's squad reached the compound first, and called for reinforcements. From other accounts I gather that there were approximately 40 GIs on-site by the final sweep. I gathered that the occupants were already aware they were surrounded as the reinforcements Morris called for arrived.

I've seen the entry and exit holes rounds from an assault rifles like M16s leave in ballistics gel. An M16 round will have a small entry hole and a shockingly large exit hole.

Various teenage Afghan captives testified that they escaped conscription into the Taliban because their beards hadn't come in. Afghans don't have birth certificates. Most of the Afghan captives didn't know their birth date, or how old they were. In looking for sources on Taliban conscription I came across sources that confirmed that, in the late 1990s at least, the Taliban didn't let teenagers who didn't have beards engage in hostilities.

If Khadr was less wounded than his companions it may have been because older comrades covered his body with theirs during the aerial bombardment.

Layne Morris stated, earlier this week, that he was sure Khadr was "the grenade man". But he doesn't seem to have explained what made him draw this conclusion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Geo Swan (talk • contribs) 23:30, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

There are photos of the compound in the CBS video - and other than the reference to calling for reinforcements, I haven't seen any indication that the group surrounding the compound was ever more than six men. Morris referred to a "second medic" being on-site, but that was long after the hostilities had ceased and Khadr had been shot. Also, note that Hansen is a "green beret" (was a gunner in Vietnam[2]) (general term for Special Forces) from the 19th. [3] "Delta Force" is a separate unit, unrelated to the 19th.

WHen Mike Leavitt gave his speech about the Bronze Star citation, he described the battle thus;

The second heroic event began as a "search and locate" foray at a walled Afghan compound and turned into a prolonged battle between Major Watt's detachment and an Al Qaeda cell. It was all-out combat, involving air support and medical evacuations and it continued for five hours. Four soldiers were hit, including a Utah guardsman. Through it all, Watt commanded rescue and battle operations as Hansen risked his life to pull wounded comrades to safety.

They killed and captured the entire Al Qaeda force. One of those injured in that battle was Sergeant Lane Morris also with us tonight.

Now, it's not terribly helpful, but it does offer a few new insights (if we assume the Governor of the state heard the story right, which is of course, only "possible"). It implies that the battle took five hours, not four (medEvac of Khadr could've been the extra hour, some sources would count it, others wouldn't), it also implies that four soldiers were "hit" - since the two Afghan interpreters are apparently counted as "wounded comrades", this could mean they were Afghan National Army regulars and thus counted in the total of "four" who were hit. (Morris and Speer from grenades, the two Afghans from gunfire). However, this also designates the two "wounded comrades", which assuming this is a reference to the Afghan interpreters, implied they were not "shot point-blank in the face, killed instantly" as Layne Morris later stated to the media...in fact it implies they were alive at the time he ran forward to drag them to safety (which also makes more logical sense, if somebody were shot point-blank in the face and not moving, a soldier would probably be less likely to advance under fire to drag their body back to safety).

So basically it comes down to a matter of trying to understand the chain of events, are there any direct quotes implying that the "two wounded comrades" for which Hansen was awarded the BZ were the two Afghan interpreters shot upon approach? Or might two SPecial Forces have been shot?

Also, per your comments about the M16 used - you're suggesting that you agree it's more likely a reference to an M16 shotgun than carbine? Or vice versa? Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 00:28, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Someone keeps removing the references to the National Post article "The Good Son".

Sergeant 1st Class Layne Morris didn't expect to be engaged in a firefight that day... A team of Special Forces soldiers and a local Afghan militia set out to investigate... The men ignored Sgt. Morris's entreaties to open the door, and sat with their weapons conferring for about 45 minutes, which was the amount of time it took for Sgt. Morris to call in reinforcements. When the backup troops arrived and Pashtu translators began to negotiate with the men inside the compound, they responded with grenades and bullets... "We were amazed that anyone could still be alive in there," said Captain Mike Silver, who walked into the bombed-out compound behind Sgt. Speer. "Within seconds, we had him [Omar] pinpointed and we opened fire." Omar, who had the beginnings of a peach-fuzz beard on his chin, was covered in blood and dirt and lying on the ground between two fallen pillars. His four comrades had died when U.S. forces bombed the compound earlier in the afternoon. He had been lying in wait, clutching a pistol and a grenade. He was surrounded by a cache of arms that included grenades, ammunition and automatic weapons. Within seconds of throwing the grenade at Sgt. Speer, Omar took two shots in the chest and dropped his pistol...

The URL of this mirror of The Good Son article does not comply with policy for inclusion in article space. But we have the title, publication, date of publication and author, so it remains a valid link even without. So think should not be removed again.

I'll look for that link about the number of reinforcements.

Cheers! Geo Swan (talk) 07:28, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

More detailes here -- it is a mirror of a widely quoted Wall Street Journal article. Geo Swan (talk) 07:39, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

And the story becomes more of a clusterfuck - hrm. Now we have the translators not appearing until after initial contact, and that they apparently weren't just sent forward, but that Silver's team had been there for 45 minutes prior to even trying to negotiate in Pashto (after the men "ignored" an American soldier yelling at them to open the door? That doesn't make much sense). Frankly, and obviously this is entirely OR, Silver's story about the Firefight seems to change the most about the position of where he was compared ot the others, he's told at least three "slightly different" stories about how it happened - which I'd tend to believes make him the most likely OC-1, having to "invent some details" to cover up the 2nd Muja inside. Of course, that's OR and can't go in the article, just commenting that it's going to be hard reconciling his different stories :\

Of course, remember OK was inside the compound and speaks perfect English - so if Morris actually requested them to open the door as he first approached (this makes no sense, he approached, knocked on the door, withdrew and called reinforcements, THEN the Muja inside shot translators? Why not just shoot Morris' crew at first contact? Blah)

You able to check if any of the ARB/CSRT/ChargeSheets ever mentioned the pistol? I'm curious whether its presence is consistent in stories or not - since the new "leaked" document tends to suggest he was unarmed. (and verifies he was shot in the back/shoulder, not chest) Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 07:47, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

PS, your new article specifically states the dead men were "all Arabs", rather than Pashtuns (who are a Persian offshoot as I recall) - think that's just bad-journalist-speak for "brown-skinned", or were they actually Arabs speaking Arabic? OK spoke both Pashto and Arabic, but the US Interpreters are defined as Pashto translators, not Arabic. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 08:16, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

rand

I think I mentioned this before, but I think it is important, so I will mention this again -- OC-1's testimony is not the possibly exculpatory witness Keubler first learned about in December. Geo Swan (talk) 19:33, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Yup, I know Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 20:19, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Why not wait until dark, when the GIs would have the advantage of night vision equipment?

If it was 10am, I suppose they didn't consider it worth a 12 hour wait just to use new equipment.Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 20:19, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Keubler questioned whether shooting Khadr in the back complied the GIs rules of engagement.

Some sources suggest the shooter was not a GI, but was a CIA official. Would a CIA official feel bound by the same rules of engagement as the GIs he or she was with? If I were a GI I would sure want them to be -- if only because the ROE protect GIs from friendly fire mistakes. Geo Swan (talk) 19:33, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Possible, but I haven't seen anything other than speculation that any CIA assets were involved. If you have actual evidence that there CIA assets with either the first group, the team that set out or the reinforcements, let me know - but otherwise I think it's just idle speculation by sensationalist journalists. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 20:19, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Worth mentioning -- Khadr's case was considered one of the easiest to prosecute. This was one of the causes of the disagreement between Colonel Morris Davis and other senior officials. He wanted to focus on first prosecuting captives who could be tried based on evidence that was not coerced through torture, and where most of the evidence was not classified. Thomas Hartmann, and others, wanted to prosecute king-pins -- even if those trials would have to be held entirely in-camera.

Good catch on the new sources you found.

I've uploaded some new images:

Guantanamo court room.

Alleged to be Omar Khadr, being trained to construct a time bomb, from video captured by the USA.

Alleged to be Omar Khadr, being trained to construct a time bomb, from video captured by the USA.

Alleged to be Omar Khadr, planting landmines, from video captured by the USA.

Alleged to be Omar Khadr, planting landmines, from video captured by the USA.

Image of the site of the July 27 2002 skirmish, from GI video.

Image of the site of the July 27 2002 skirmish, from GI video.

Image of the site of the July 27 2002 skirmish, from GI video.

Omar Khadr, shortly after capture 3, possibly getting first aid.

Geo Swan (talk) 19:33, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

You'll need to crop the 60 minutes logo and media player out of the photos, for them to be Public Domain. Even still, some could argue the "captured videotape" isn't Public Domain - since it's not made by the US Fed'l government.

I think it is time for the Omar Khadr article, the Layne Morris article, the Christopher Speer article, the Mike Silver article, and the OC-1 (witness) article to all have their coverage of the skirmish cut back to a paragraph, or two short paragraphs, with a pointer to an article just about the skirmish. Let's confine the discussion of the (conflicting) known details of the skirmish to a single article. I like:

Further information: Skirmish at Ab Qhail, Afghanistan, on July 27, 2002

Geo Swan (talk) 19:33, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't mind it for the officers' articles, but Omar Khadr is going to be the first-and-last stop for many readers trying to learn about this kid in the newspaper today. I think we owe it to them to keep the article as fully-contextual as possible.

I'll keep my eyes peeled for references to the Pistol.

Interestingly Bill Simon, in the CBS segment, asserts that the grenade was "thrown over a wall" -- I think this would be the first reference to "over the wall". Is it possible that CBS may have been given illicit access to the OC-1 testimony? Geo Swan (talk) 19:33, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

It seems unlikely to think they wouldn't have taken the opportunity to drop the story that's leaking now, about the fact Khadr wasn't seen to throw the grenade and a second Muja was still alive at the time it was thrown. It's possible either a coincidence that CBS used that wording, or Silver/Morris gave an interview and inadvertantly used the term. I don't really smell conspiracy. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 20:19, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

You mean a second conspiracy? The Prosecution wanted to show the tape in court. Brownback wouldn't let them. Jeffrey Gordon said that the Prosecution didn't leak the tape. He didn't say who did leak the tape. Somebody leaked that tape.

Simon's comment couldn't be based on an interview with Morris. I believe him when he says he was as surprised as the rest of us to learn those details from OC-1's account.

Yes, I figured the time codes should go. But I didn't want to remove them until people had helped pick the best images.

The reason why I favor cutting back the individual coverage of the skirmish in the individual articles is to prevent allowing multiple versions to grow inconsistent with one another. I want my watchlist entries to be as useful as possible. That means working to keep the articles on it focussed on just one topic. Another participant here has suggested merging just about everything -- which is IMO a terrific disservice for people who make good use of their watchlists, the "what links here" button, and understand and exploit the full power of the bidirectional nature of the wikipedia's links. We should understand and exploit the full power of the bidirectional nature of wikilinks.

I think we have more than enough information to justify a separate article about the skirmish itself. Having it as a separate article allows for readers who are only interested in the skirmish, or only interested in the skirmish, and one of the actors, to not have keep the articles about all the actors on their watchlist. Wouldn't merging all the articles into one be just as good? Absolutely not. Because, then, new details about the actors the reader wan't interested in would still be triggering hits one their watchlist.

Yes, but you have to balance the fact that 75% of people who read the article on OK won't read a seperately-linked article on the circumstances of his capture which form the basis for the charge of war crimes against him. They'd leave only knowing that "he was in some firefight and is accused of warcrimes" - leaving the information on the page ensures that everything is put in context. I'm strongly against removing any information on the firefight from OK's article, the officers' articles should simply link to [[Omar Khadr#Firefight_and_Capture|a lengthy battle]] if you want to direct them to the full account. It seems like the best compromise.

Note that the basis for the Fayetteville story gives an "interesting" timeline of events, it not only mentions "the pistol" but claims that Khadr was shooting it at the soldiers - was this an early indicator of the second Muja with the AK? Surely soldiers stationed outside the walls, like Hansen, would be able to tell the difference between hearing an AK and hearing a "pistol" fired at American troops before the 1 and 2-round bursts that killed the Muja and wounded OK? It also claims that five bodies were found in the rubble, whereas general consensus seems to say there were five fighters including Khadr, though you'll notice that the early story which mentions "entering the compound" says they saw three dead bodies - which accounts for the second Muja and OK in the alleyway.

Finally, I saw the number of Zadran's wounded listed somewhere earlier, I think it was seven - but if you can help me hunt down the source for that number, I'd appreciate it. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 22:12, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd love to use some (larger, clearer) photos of the compound in the Firefight section, but do you have any actual evidence that the photos of the bombed-out compound were made by a "GI" - and that there's no possible way CBS themselves went to Ayub Khayl and got the footage years later? I think it warrants a letter to CBS inquiring about the source of the footage. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 16:56, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Forking

For right now, while we focus on cleaning up this mess, I've created Military Tribunals of Omar Khadr and O.K. v George W. Bush - I'd like to focus on all three articles separately, and then debate the merits of whether we should merge two, or even all three, of them. But for now, the Omar Khadr article should be given two or three short paragraphs of summary for the two forks, with a "see main article at..." link. Thanks. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 01:55, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Heasther

Sergeant Heather Cerveny, the paralegal for Colby Vokey, Khadr's military lawyer, issued an affidavit reporting that off-duty Guantanamo guards had bragged to her of abusing detainees. On October 14, 2006 Vokey's boss imposed a gag order on the two while the matter is investigated - is this relevant to Khadr himself? Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 15:56, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Removed, as the information is already on Cerveny's article Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 07:48, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Leaked Document

There doesn't seem to be anything on this page about the leaked document that contradicted previous evidence. - http://www.thestar.com/News/World/article/301316 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.140.107.55 (talk) 18:31, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

In February 2008, the Pentagon accidentally released evidence that revealed that although Khadr was present during the firefight, there was no other evidence that he had thrown the grenade - and speculation had merely formed based on the fact his comrade was firing a rifle at the time the explosive was thrown. After his comrade was killed, a wounded Khadr turned away from the soldiers on his knees but was shot twice in the back before being captured.[4] from the introduction. The section on the Firefight also makes use of the new evidence. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 18:34, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Just for amusement

Just because I love seeing journalists add a little dramatic flair of their own, when it's clear that they're basically writing a story in their own minds of how they picture things happening....

Sergeant 1st Class Christopher J. Speer...walked into the compound, seeking wounded. Suddenly a skinny figure rose from the rubble with a pistol in one hand and a grenade in the other. Omar Khadr, howling defiance, pitched the grenade. The blast felled Speer...

Colin Nickerson, Boston Globe

So it basically portrays Speer as entering "alone" (he was behind four other soldiers, at the rear of the detachment. Nothing wrong with that, so why fudge details?), "seeking wounded" as though it were a humanitarian effort - when all reports say that every soldier gathered around believed there was "no chance" anyone had survived, and they'd been ordered to sweep the rubble for intelligence, not survivors. And finally, not only do we get a zombie-like OK "rising from the rubble", but he is "howling defiance" while doing so. If I have a pet peeve, it's journalists who do this - add their own little character interaction into a "story" for better drama. sigh. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 22:37, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Aaaaand the runner-up (more amusing, but less Presumption of Truth from Azzam Publications than the Boston Globe)

12 US SOLDIERS KILLED IN KHOST

Source: Azzam Publications

Khost (Azzam), July 29: According to reliable sources US Troops had been in an area east of Khost when at midday local time, they were ambushed by a 14 year old Afghan child who managed to kill four US soldiers. US Forces retaliated swiftly by bombing the region killing at least two children, including the 14 year old Afghan child.

After the bombing, US Forces attacked the Ayub Khail Tribe, which the 14 year old Afghan child belonged to. The local tribesman defended themselves and in this fierce fight managed to kill at least eight more US Troops. Three Afghan tribesman were taken as martyrs. US Forces have now received reinforcements and have laid siege on the village. The situation is very intense.

I don't think they got a single fact correct there, lol Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 23:01, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

hrm

He is charged with throwing a grenade that killed Army Sgt. 1st Class Christopher Speer, 28, of Albuquerque, N.M., and wounded Army Sgt. Layne Morris, of West Jordan, Utah. - a single grenade injured them both? It's my understanding that the Attempted Murder charge was simply for fighting against the group, not specific to Morris - wasn't he already MedEvaced by the time the group found Khadr and got hit by the last grenade? Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 03:25, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Morris called Khadr "the grenade man". He seems to be saying that although Khadr's companions were grown men, Khadr inflicted all the casualties against Americans in the skirmish. Geo Swan (talk) 04:10, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Essentially that Khadr was the only one throwing grenades for four and a half hours, while the other four men used their rifles? I don't think I've seen any reference to that theory - have a link? Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 04:15, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Layne Morris said despite the new information released this week he isn't concerned about the coming trial or conflicting reports of what happened on July 27, 2002. He said he believes there is evidence to show it was Khadr's job to throw the grenades during the battle, while the other men in the house used their AK-47s. "Omar was the grenade man," he said. Michelle Shephard (February 7 2008). "Soldier in 'shock' over leaked Khadr report". Toronto Star. Retrieved 2008-02-10. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

Wow, thanks for the link - yeah, I agree it's almost amusing to think that a Green Beret is basically saying that four men with assault rifles failed to hit any American troops, while the 15-year old kid ran around throwing all the grenades out the windows, including at least five that *did* catch Green Berets (Morris, Speer and then the other three soldiers were hit by two grenades each, but each grenade hit two different people, is how I read it).

btw, would appreciate if you could write an introduction/summary for the two forks, Military Tribunals of Omar Khadr and O.K. v George W. Bush. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 06:31, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

It does slightly contradict the 2007 appeal that "“After vowing to die fighting, the accused armed himself with an AK-47 assault rifle, put on an ammunition vest, and took a position by a window in the compound" of course. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 04:44, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Unsentenced

Although some can dispute, according to their point of view, that he has been detained "illegally" since his capture in 2002, it is a fact that he has been detained unsentenced since 2002, meaning he has never been convicted of any crime. Although his case was thrown out of court, he was not freed as he should have been, but charged in a different manner. The goal post is always changing according to the will of the US government.

If anyone want to edit this out, you better justify it first. Hudicourt (talk) 14:06, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps you'd better take a closer look at those goalposts. It was only a few years ago that America's critics claimed that they cared about the Geneva Conventions. While the SCOTUS eventually decided that Common Article 3 applied, that's all they gave. I suggest you read it carefully. Nowhere does it say a trial is required to detain these fascists. It is only if they're to be punished that they need that.

In fact, had the SCOTUS declared that the full GCs applied to this war, Omar Khadr could be detained under the GCIV as well.

But besides all that, they've been wanting to try this guy for a long time. His lawyers keep throwing up roadblocks. While it's always possible they could eventually win, it'll be U.S. law they turn to. They never really cared about the GCs.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 15:51, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Excisions

Just a few things I don't want "lost", but I'm taking out of the article as I clean up - hopefully we can find another article in which they'll convey the same information.

Elaine Chao, the United States Secretary of Labor, has spoken about the responsibility to give child soldiers special treatment, specifically to provide help for them to re-integrate into society. She announced a $3 million program to help re-integrate child-soldiers in Afghanistan back into Afghan society.

Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 04:33, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Chao was then, and remains, a Cabinet level official. Her policy announcement about child soldiers exposes a cabinet level disagreement about how child soldiers -- like Khadr -- should be treated. I think that makes it relevant for this article. Geo Swan (talk) 11:37, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but would fit better in an article devoted to the subject such as Canadian policy towards child soldiers or something, imho. Quotes that don't discuss Omar specifically, but just "point towards" cases like his are unfortunately the first to be cut, in trying to deal with size I think. Though one person suggested we needed more focus on "public perceptions" of Khadr, so maybe once the Tribunals are all worked back into this article, we can create a "Public view of Omar Khadr" article or something, which would collect public, and governmental, quotes related, such as this one? Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 21:45, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Besides that, Omar Khadr is not a child soldier by any serious definition of the term.

I don't think this was necessarily a disagreement on policy between Chao and DoD. It could have been a misunderstanding of definition. The U.N. defines child soldier as under 15. The Optional Protocol on the Involvement of Children in Armed Conflict uses under 18, but it doesn't apply here.

More to the point, the AR 190-8 manual on detainees provides for special treatment for children under 15. Chao may not have understood where the age cutoff was when she spoke.

Khadr should not be called a child soldier. (It's questionable whether any unlawful combatant could be called a soldier, but that's another story.) If some sleazy lawyer or advocacy group wants to call him a child soldier then fine, but then we should say who it is calling him that. They say such things all the time. That doesn't mean they pass the laugh test.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 23:22, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I think it's worth mentioning (as currently) that there is a "child soldier debate" swirling around him, but not making a judgment either way on it in the article. We're here to provide the facts, not to convince readers whether Treaty A or Treaty B should be followed. Personally I don't think he's either a child soldier or a terrorist, there is nothing indicating he was conscripted to fight in a war - he was asked to provide translation services and even prosecutors don't really claim that he was being groomed for front-line battle or anything. "Due to circumstances" he ended up in a firefight, where he is alleged to have thrown grenades at US soldiers wanting to capture his "colleagues". shrugs, it doesn't really fit the notion of a "soldier" or a "terrorist". Anyways, whatever term applies, I think this quote is better suited to an article specifically about Canada's statements on the issue of "minors during conflicts" or whatever. It doesn't seem to have been said specifically with Khadr in mind - and thus while Omar Khadr might link to an article providing greater context on the national issue, the article itself isn't the best place for the information. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 23:37, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, we're supposed to give the facts, and that's the point. It's not a fact that Omar Khadr was a child soldier. I don't even think there's much of a debate about it other than an offhand comment or two. I think it's been taken too seriously.

As for what he was doing, what matters is whether he fought, not whether he initially didn't intend to fight. The contracted translators for U.S. troops aren't allowed to carry weapons, and they'd be in serious trouble if they ever shot an anyone. If U.S. soldiers are captured in a real war by any nation that follows the Geneva Conventions (which is not likely to ever happen again), those translators would be detained as well.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 00:30, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Results 1 - 10 of about 7,960 for "omar khadr" + "child soldier". Let's not kid ourselves about whether or not a debate exists. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 00:40, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

And Google has 442,000 results for CIA and UFO. That doesn't mean there's a serious connection.

Do you remember back when the detainee issue first came up? Back then it was all about the Geneva Conventions, and the critics were claiming that the U.S. wasn't following them. Well, it turns out that the U.S. has been pretty respectful of the GCs. I think it's time that we ask the same of the critics. The treaties say the age is 15. The Army manual was written to conform to that treaty. If people still want to call him a child soldier then that's simply piling on for the sake of piling on. It's no more serious than when I call Khadr a Hitler Youth.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 01:08, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

And the term UFO is used six times in the article on the CIA, referring to the debate that centres around the connection as evidenced by the RP. Similarly, OK's article mentions the fact there is debate about the term "Child soldier" and its applicability, it's how things are done. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 01:24, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The CIA article doesn't say there's a connection. Only that there was an investigation.

That Khadr's lawyer calls him a child soldier doesn't make him one. Lawyers will grasp at anything when they've got a difficult case.

This article doesn't simply mention that there's a debate. That would be enough if it did. The trouble is that it outright calls him a child soldier as though he really is one.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 01:52, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

In January 2008, the revised manual for Canadian Consular Officers included a list of locations where it was possible that Canadians in foreign custody would undergo torture. The United States was on the list, based on the belief that Canadians could face torture in Guantanamo Bay - where Khadr is the sole Canadian.

Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 01:09, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

AQ

Without any actual evidence that the deceased were related to UBL's network, I'm loathe to refer to them as AQ. As I understand it, they were never even identified. It's clear they were militants, or one could use Mujahideen (has some POV connotations however) per the Soviet invasion, but AQ should only be referenced as an allegation against them, not an established fact. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 21:29, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I concur they shouldn't be called al Qaeda. Geo Swan (talk) 11:27, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Dead links

• Second Request for Appointment of Expert Consultant: Dr. Xenakis and Dr. Cantor (.pdf), 'Miami Herald, June 13 2006 - cannot find any non-wiki reference to this file online. Help? Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 07:50, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

First militiaman

The timeline's confusing me a bit, it seems like Zadran's first militiaman, the one who retreated under fire, was with the group before they called for reinforcements? He's not mentioned elsewhere when discussing the team sent to check on the Satphone huts - when/where Zadran's men were is confusing, though I strongly suspect the reference to "100 Afghans watching" probably refers to Zadran's troops, not local villagers anxious to see carnage. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 20:46, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

To confuse the situation futher, Shephard's book refers to only a hlaf-dozen of Zadran's troops being present! Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 21:22, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

PV2 R

PV2 R, the PV2 refers to the rank Private Second Class, while the R could be an initial or could be a reference to his being a PV2-R, a Private Second Class in the Rangers...which you'll notice we had some troops from the Rangers arriving in the 5-vehicle convoy. It's not clear yet. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 23:21, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Random notes

I'm fighting to use the most concise wording possible, but it seems inevitable this will be one of the articles which necessitate being longer than 32k. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 18:10, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Maha's views on homosexuality aren't related to Omar, it's suffice (imho) to say that she was "concerned with corrupting influences" in Canada - and leave discussion of her specific views to her specific article. (If one is ever created). Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 20:51, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Mother's position as legal guardian makes all her view relevant. We cannot argue the Omar is a child soldier without accepting her as having legal right over the Omar. [User_talk:Dlafferty] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dlafferty (talk • contribs) 22:42, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

By that reasoning, Goebbels children should include the fact their father believed that Jews should be exterminated...but I really don't see how that's relevant to the children, do you? Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 22:52, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Goebbel's influence on his family influence might be important if the children were being tried for the murder of jews. They might include his views in an argument that they were not criminally responsible. In the present case, if Omar Khadr stands accused of crimes, he may wish to dismiss criminal liability by attributing his actions to those of his parents. If she did not directly influence him to illegally murder a foreign soldier, he might resort to indirect influences such as irrational fears on the part of his mother that kept him from his homeland of Canada. Whether her views are irrational would be for, in this case, the reader to decide, and not yourself. Is the content factually incorrect? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.243.34 (talk) 23:29, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Your conjecture for what defence Khadr "might" choose is ill-placed and OR. I've seen no signs that Khadr has made any effort to blame his mother for his place in Afghanistan, and your point is misplaced anyways since she wasn't his "legal guardian" (as you claim in edit summaries) at the time of the incident. He had just spent the year with his father in the mountains. Presumably even if he were to blame a parent figure, it would be his father, not his mother. Should his father's views on capital punishment and abortion be included in the article? Let's not be ridiculous. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 23:36, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

For Khadr to blame his mother would require that he felt regret that he had been raised this way. Everything I've seen implies that he's quite pleased to be an Islamist. Either way, his upbringing is relevant. The fact that he was still a kid only makes it more so.

I don't think trying to conserve space is a good enough reason to leave this out. If the article implies that he's some innocent kid who'd rather be playing video games then the reader will come away with an incorrect picture.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 00:44, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree it's important to provide a fair balance in the article, and I agree with Randy that there's nothing to suggest that Khadr is trying in any way to distance himself from his mother. The 'argument' is "It's okay to be this way", not "I'm not this way". Now that said, I think my Goebbels example sums it up perfectly - we do not hold the sins of the parents against the children. Especially not against specific children - if Khadr was on trial for gay bashing it might be prudent to note that his mother believes homosexuality is an abomination, but unless we're going to insert it into the biographies of every Catholic, Evangelical, Muslim and Orthodox Jew on Wikipedia who has a parent who believes abortion is wrong, homosexuality is wrong, or any similar 'belief' which is unrelated to the actual article, I think this should follow the same path. It's important to realise that he was raised outside Canada because his mother felt Peshawar offered a better society, but it's not fair to give undue weight to make it sound like she left because of gay people. She left because she wasn't comfortable raising her children in the society. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 00:52, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I also think the Goebbels example is apt. I just don't think it would be wrong to use his mother's guidance. One difference between Omar Khadr and Goebbels is that Goebbels had time to distance himself from his upbringing (and it appears he did to some extent).

A bigger difference is that this article wouldn't exist had it not been for Khadr's family. To whatever extent he was involved in that battle, he was there precisely because his parents put him there. He was raised for jihad. It may not be fair to fault him for that, just as it's not fair to blame a killer dog for what it was trained to do. But a fully-informed reader can feel sympathy for him if they believe there's any to be had.

One way that I do think you're right is that it surely wasn't only about gay people. The real problem I see is that changing it to "corrupting influences" is too wishywashy. They left because of what the family perceives as western decadance in all its forms, not merely their revulsion to usury and sabbath breaking.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 17:41, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Worth noting -- Omar Khadr has been living in camp 4, the camp for compliant captives, and has been allowed to wear a white uniform, the uniform for compliant captives, for about a year now.

Also worth noting. Two years ago he wanted to fire all his American lawyers -- including Muneer Ahmad, who I thought was doing a really good job under the circumstances. But he now seems cooperative with Kuebler, and cooperative in the hearing room.

We have no way of really knowing what Omar Khadr thought or felt on July 27, 2002.

We have very few clues as to what Omar Khadr thought or felt in 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006 or 2007.

The skirmish happened a third of his life ago. I suggest his own memory of what he thought or felt would be highly unreliable.

Omar Khadr has had no unmonitored, uncensored contact with his family.

We have no idea what he really knows of what his family has been up to since he saw them last. But, I suggest, those of us who follow news reports of them have a better idea of what they have been up to than he does.

Cheers! Geo Swan (talk) 02:22, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't think the fact that he doesn't need a strait-jacket and can sit in a courtroom without foaming at the mouth means all that much. Most criminals are at their best behavior in court.

You're right that we don't have a real picture of what he's thinking, but I don't think he's renounced jihad. I don't expect him to either. None of the British ex-detainees had done so. Moazzam Begg is asking his fans to fight for a return to the Caliphate and not the Geneva Conventions. It's not very likely that Khadr would be any different if he were released. He was raised to be a jihadi, and now he's spent his entire adult life living with them.

That's not to say I don't have some sympathy for him. I'd rather that he'd been deprogrammed when he was first captured. The trouble with that is, the critics would have gone ballistic.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 17:41, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

In 1992, Khadr's father stepped on a land-mine while in Lowgar, Afghanistan and nearly died; the Khadr family moved back to Toronto he could recuperate for free by virtue of the Canadian medicare

First of all, the link doesn't say anything about Ahmed's return to Canada, muchless the reasoning for it. And secondly, it's POV to state "for free", and words like "by virtue" are definitely emotionally-manipulative words designed to trigger feeling. Suffice to say that they moved back so he could recuperate (or "recover" if you have a preference). Typically, when somebody is wounded overseas, they return to their home country to recover...there's nothing sinister about it. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 22:56, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

'for free' is stated provincial policy by the premier of Ontario. See the article titled "McGuinty Suggests Khadr's Wife Apologize". Specifically, 'On Tuesday, Mr. McGuinty said the Khadrs' citizenship was a federal issue and the family would continue to be eligible for medical benefits and welfare in Ontario'. I welcome your review of the material, and I'm glad to see that you are ensuring that it is kept factual. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.243.34 (talk) 23:35, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

"for free" is not anywhere in provincial policy, it's a crass vernacular term, in policy you're more likely to see "without charge", "with no incurred fees" or "gratis". Don't bullshit me. Secondly, I know it's a matter of public record that she used the Ontario medicare system, so did Tie Domi, should we say that he "took advantage of the Canadian medicare system by demanding doctors fix his nose for no charge, thanks to the virtues of Canadian medicare"? No, if that's the accepted standard for the country, there's no reason to draw attention to it other than to try and slyly insert our POV intonations. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 23:40, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Note that there's no point editwarring over the article, let's just leave it as it stands right now, while we debate the matter, and if we reach a compromise, adjust it accordingly. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 23:42, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough. We'll let the health care comments stand. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dlafferty (talk • contribs) 14:38, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Ouch, that was a bit nasty calling for a freeze after removing a contribution.Dlafferty

The article was stable before you added your "controversial edit", the "leave it as-is while we discuss" refers to the version before the controversial edit, not to leave the controversial edit in place. Again, you haven't referenced why this is different than referring to any other Canadian's health maladies as "taking advantage of the free Canadian healthcare virtues"? Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 01:07, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Added background to distinguish Omar from other Canadian familys with the last name Khadr. It's not immediately obvious from the link who we are talking about, and we cannot guarantee that readers will follow the link. A reference to the father's public persona should suffice.Dlafferty

If other Omar Khadrs were in the news, that would be a strong argument...but since I've never seen another "Khadr family" in the news, it seems a little odd. I'm also confused as to why his father's name should be in the very first sentence - he's notable due to his war crimes tribunal, not due to his father. His entire family is controversial, why isn't a link to the family suitable? (I agree the family's article still needs a lot of work btw, but so does Ahmed's). Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 01:07, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

On your first point, I have not canvassed all news world wide, and I cannot dismiss the existence of another Khadr family. If you can provide such evidence, then I will gladly see the omission of references distinguishing his family from other Khadr's residing in Canada.Dlafferty

On your point about the first sentence, it was your decision to reference the family at the outset, and I feel it a good one. Further, the link the family does not in itself explain the nature of the family's controversy. The discussion of his father merely pinpoints the family's controversy. Therefore, the reference keeps the article concise.Dlafferty

On your point that Omar is only known for his trial, I would explain that this is unreasonable by analogy. No one would sugggest that Chelsea Clinton is not notable for her father, despite the fact that she is of course currently known for campaigning for her mother. Perhaps on way to solve this issue is to spin Omar's trial into a separate article where we can focus on that aspect of his life.Dlafferty

In refuting your argument I'd like to go further and make a counterclaim. I not that you have labelled quotes from the Ontario premier, CBC news, and Mrs. Khadr herself as 'POV'. By rejecting statements for the record as opinion, you are in the position of editorialising the article, because you favour your interpretation of the facts rather than providing them for the reader as the basis of an informed decision. This is detrimental to the integrity of the article, because it purports to be an article and has the substance of a a thesis. The article suggest journalism reporting, as it states no author's name and focuses on Omar in general. However, the editing has turned it into a thesis, because it express your opinion that tOmar's life issues are focused war crime accusations and your opinion of what is relevant to that crime. To avoid this situation, we need to take a broader view of Omar's life to include the experiences that influenced him into his political and religious views. Also, we need to highlight the benefits of his participation in Canadian society such as medical benefits provided to his family. It would be nice to contrast this with his experience in Pakistan and Afgahnistan, where his character was primarily molded. To do so would effect an article on a life lived and not a criminal trial.Dlafferty

If you can comment on these points, I will make sometime this evening to review your discussion. It should take very little time to address each point. I should have the review done later this evening, and in the meantime I would like to see the comments retained.Dlafferty —Preceding comment was added at 13:11, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

If Premier [[Dalton McGuinty\\ said "Homosexuality is a sin", would that belong in the Homosexuality article or in the Dalton McGuinty article? Obviously in the latter, right? Same situation here. You can go talk to the Dalton McGuinty people, or create a Maha article, but don't litter the article about Omar with unrelated comments that his mother doesn't like homosexuals, or that the Premier made a snide comment. Since the Khadr family article is "lacking" (I agree with you), I'd suggest you spend some work there explaining why the family is "notable/notorious", again things like the mother's opinion belong more in an article about the family or the mother herself...not in each article about each of her children, surely. Saad bin Laden certainly doesn't say "His father Osama bin Laden is a murderer who has said that he hates Jews". That would be a POV addition to Saad's article, right?

Keep Omar's article relevant to statements Omar has said, his lawyers have said about him, his family has said about him or prosecutors have said. Adding in the personal opinions of others is simply POV-pushing, and quite simply will not be tolerated in the article. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 17:43, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Your argument by analogy and emphasis on POV fails to address the following points:Dlafferty

1. You were requested to verify that there were no other Khadr's in the news. Dlafferty

You have not done so, and so the father should be referenced in the article to distinguish the family from other Canadians last name Khadr.Dlafferty

2. You were requested to discuss why the focus should be on Omar's trial and not his life. Dlafferty

You have not done so. Insisting that all material published about Omar be direct quotes from him, his lawyers, his family and his prosecutors merely reinforces my point that the article is too narrow. Using material from these individuals limits the article to those likely to be involved or referenced in his trial. Since this is not an article on Omar Khadr's trial, it should include additional background information that might influence his attitudes. Please see Biography. Dlafferty

3. The Saad bin Laden article does explain that his father is in Al Queda.Dlafferty

Therefore, by your reasoning, it is valid to explain Omar's father's role in the organisation.Dlafferty

4. You were asked to refute the observation that the article is commentary, by yourself, masquerading as journalism.Dlafferty

This is a very serious point to be addressed, because it speaks to the integrity of the article as a whole as well as yours. If the suggestion is made that this article is biased, the supervisory editors are going to review this discussion and base their decision on whether the article's content is based on material argued in a sound and reasonable way. Now would be an opportunity for you to address my criticism and put forward arguments that are not self-defeating, and refer to the points that I make.Dlafferty

1. The Khadr family is the Canadian version of the Kennedy family, there is "only one" family known by that name.

   I'm not in Canada, and I have to say that the Khadr's are not in the same league as the Kennedy's.

   Also, you were asked to verify in media, where as the above is purely conjecture. Therefore, you have no satisfied the point you originally made that there was no other Khadr. in media. -- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dlafferty (talk • contribs) -- 17:41, 2008 March 31

2. No, there should be emphasis on both the trial and his life. His father's life however, is only relevant when directly impacting Omar's life, same with his mother. Single quotes meant to portray his parents as monsters are POV-seeding and not appropriate in the article. Please refrain from continually adding them.

   The comments above are not consistent with edits you have made. There was no quote from the father and it was pointed out that the mother's quotes relate to the decision to move. Thus, it of not consequence to your concerns that a descriptive reference of the father, and that the mother's comments be kept. Therefore, I would expect to be able to make the edits to include a descriptive reference to the father. Will you accept this point now? -- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dlafferty (talk • contribs) 17:41, 2008 March 31 (edit) (undo)

3. This article does address what Ahmed Khadr is known to have done, taking his son into the mountains after living at UBL's compound. Allegations against Ahmed belong in his article, not in Omar's article.

   Yes, but I think we need to give an indication of the ideology that the father may have installed in the son. Clearly, the attitudes presented are not consistent with social values presented to children in Canadian classrooms at the primary level. You are welcome to reference Ontario education curriculum on this point. Therefore, it would be misleading to suggest on the one hand Khadr is Canadian, but ignore that his family's attitudes and suggestions of participation in Al Queda. BTW, these are likely to be proven simply because the court has no interest in a dead man. -- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dlafferty (talk • contribs) 17:41, 2008 March 31 (edit) (undo)

4. ...wtf? The fact that every sentence in the article is a statement of fact, and there are no statements of opinion (in either direction) is a pretty obvious sign the article is encyclopaedic, rather than editorialism. Please refrain from completely baseless accusations. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 20:44, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

   You specifically removed the 'Homosexual'. This does not suggest a respect for fact.

   Finally, in the above passage, you attempt to address my criticism with a call that I not question your actions. Such a call is not reasonable in a free and democratic society where my comments cannot be construed as inciteful or provacative to yourself personally. Please keep these points in mind, and refrain from questioning my democratic freedom to discuss the issues. Thank you. -- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dlafferty (talk • contribs) 17:41, 2008 March 31 (edit) (undo)

WHy do online trolls always start talking about their "democratic freedoms"? It's amusing. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 02:03, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I'm a law student at the University of Cambridge. The 'democratic freedom' comment refers provisions of the European Convertion on Human Rights, which ensures in this country a freedom to free speech. The comment is related to the approach in which you delete comments before and after discussing them. I see this as censorship, because your defense of the actions have not addressed the points I have made.Dlafferty

Anyways, in summary, you cannot prove a negative, take Logic 101. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 02:03, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I took Logic 101 sometime ago. It sits nicely on my university transcript. Now, since you brought it up, what is your educational background? Dlafferty

And would his mother's stance on abortion be relevant? What about her stance on polygamy? Her stance on income tax? Her stance on Orange Juice versus Cranberry Juice? There is no relevance to her statements on Homosexuality, since Omar is not homosexual, nor being charged with homophobic crimes. Again, you can discuss her views in any article about her. But it is simply not relevant to an understanding of Omar Khadr, to know his mother's thoughts on homosexuality.Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 02:03, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

You cannot say that Khadr's actions are completely divorced from his upbringing. Moreover, the comments above hold only if we limit the article to crimes to which Khadr has been accused. You have already refuted such a stance, and you have included the edits in the article. Thus it is proven.Dlafferty

On that note, I have consulted with other WP editors, including an open question on the Terrorism Project, and everybody seems to agree that I am simply "feeding the troll" by responding to you. I'm going to take their advice now, and simply cease responding to you - I welcome constructive edits to the article, but will continue to revert any attempts you make to add sly POV language to the article. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 02:03, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

It is customary to have an opportunity to plead my case before the judge and jury. Could you provide a link to the forum in which my views were represented so that I may put the case forward that a desription that Khadr's father be included. Dlafferty

Inquiries

Note to self: Exhaust fields of inquiry on determining who the woman and child were, that OC-1 mentions. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 01:10, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I read an account that referred to multiple women escaping the compound. I got the impression that there were at least three. I guess one could have been a girl tall enough to be mistaken for an adult. One account has then quietly leaving during the time when Layne Morris was waiting for reinforcements. But OC-1 has then running our during the aerial bombardment. Geo Swan (talk) 05:14, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Mmm, but OC-1's witness testimony says "One woman and one child escaped the compound prior to [OC-1]'s arrival and were escorted away by US personnel." implying he didn't see any of them leave - since he didn't arrive until at least after the Apaches had strafed the compound -- possibly even after the Mk-82s were dropped. If he's talking about hearsay, any of the original half-dozen guys would've mentioned multiple women/children to him presumably, so it's possible that one of the earlier reinforcements (who brought Zadran's militia, as I understand it) arrived just in time to see a single mother/child leave and told OC-1 about it I suppose...still, seems odd. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 05:23, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Note to self: Did Khadr ask to be killed then officer was about to order him killed, or did officer suggest Khadr be killed, was restrained, and Khadr argued and agreed he would rather be killed? Makes a big difference. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 20:44, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I wonder. But, even if every survivor had to testify about what he said, wearing a lie detector, we would have no way of really knowing.

Can OC-1's statement be reconciled with the later account of seeing a shooter give someone a "double-tap"? OC-1 said he shot the first guy just once. The double-tap could have been Khadr. But it opens the question as to whether there might have been two other survivors.

Note, OC-1's statement was taken in March 2004 -- 21 months later.

Cheers! Geo Swan (talk) 02:45, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Note to self: Four men in alleyway, Khadr taken away alive, two bodies taken and buried by locals...where is the remaining body? Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)}

Note to self: He saw his friend killed, someone specific? Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 20:26, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

From my watching of "Son of al Qaeda" I'd question whether his mother and sister knew anything more about the skirmish than anyone else who access to the newspapers. I'd question whether his family knew who else was present during the skirmish.

My interpretation is that referring to the other individuals present as his "friends" was just an idiom, and did not imply that they were really friends in the way we understand.

He was fifteen. They were adults. Is it easier for Muslim teenagers to have real friendship with grown adults than it is for people from Western cultures? I doubt it. If I had to guess, I would guess it would be harder. Geo Swan (talk) 02:36, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Note to self: A prisoner was taken aboard the initial MedEvac DustOff (Wings 11), this is not a reference to Khadr as the MedEvacs left while the compound was still being bombed - and Khadr is specifically referred to being flown in a CH-47 from the battlesite, not a UH-60. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 21:41, 25 March 2008 (UTC)