Talk:Augusto Roa Bastos: Difference between revisions
m →Revisited, comments: m fixes |
|||
Line 195: | Line 195: | ||
[[User:Qp10qp|qp10qp]] ([[User talk:Qp10qp|talk]]) 15:38, 10 April 2008 (UTC) |
[[User:Qp10qp|qp10qp]] ([[User talk:Qp10qp|talk]]) 15:38, 10 April 2008 (UTC) |
||
Good eye Qp10qp here are my reference fixes: |
|||
*De Costa, Elena (1997), "Caudillismo and Dicatatorship", in Smith, Verity, Encyclopedia of Latin American Literature, London: Fitzroy Dearborn, pp. P.185-186, ISBN 1-884964-18-4. |
|||
and |
|||
Ryan, Bryan, ed. (1991), "ROA BASTOS, Augusto (Antonio) 1917-", Hispanic Writers: A Selection of Sketches from Contemporary Authors, Detroit: Gale Research Inc., pp. 403-405, ISBN 0-8103-7688-1. |
|||
Who names their kid Bryan Ryan anyway? :) |
|||
[[User:nathanlusignan]] ([[User talk:nathanlusignan|talk]]) |
Revision as of 20:24, 10 April 2008
The {{GAN}} template should be substituted at the top of the article talk page.
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Augusto Roa Bastos article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1Auto-archiving period: 30 days ![]() |
![]() | This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
|
|
|
This page has archives. Sections older than 30 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 1 section is present. |
B-class rating
Let me start by explaining the rating system. Wikipedia has two ´´official´´ article ratings, Good Article and Featured Article. the other ratings: Stub, Start, B-class and A-class are Wikiproject specific ratings and are used to help participants keep track of overall article development. There is no formal process for applying these ratings and they’re largely subjective, although some broad guidelines exists, see here. By reading that you can get an idea of why I did not up rate this article to B-class, basically it needs to be expanded. The article is missing core sections such as: A description of his major works (the article is too brief on its cover of this aspect), The biography section needs to be expanded and if possible divided in subsections (see: Miguel Ángel Asturias). The last paragraph of the Bio could be used as the beginning of a legacy section. In short the Biography section as it is covers a very large span of time (almost 60 years) in only four paragraphs. I'm sure those 60 years are worth more than that in terms of content. That about sums it up for a B rating, you'll notice that I made no mention of stylistic or orthographical improvements as these are not really necessary for B-class but you’ll have to look into it for a future Good article nomination. Good luck :) Acer (talk) 11:11, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
- Oh and least you forget, Sources! Sources! Sources! :) Acer (talk) 21:24, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
Sources
This article still desperately needs reliable sources. And NB that the Encyclopedia Britannica webpage that is now cited five times doesn't cut it as a reliable source. See above for suggestions. Keep at it! --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 08:54, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Suggestions
You've done a great job of sourcing what is in the article now, but I'll second the motion for more reliable sources. As you dig into sources you'll find a lot of useful information that is not already here. Other suggestions for improvements:
- The Chronology section needs to be removed. All of the information in that section should be incorporated into the prose of the article.
- The Writing Style and Major Works section needs to be cited and expanded. Ideally, these would be two different sections, but that will depend on how much information you can find.
- There ought to be a section on Recognition. This would detail significant criticism of his works as a whole and describe any awards he's won in more detail.
- Is there any information on how he died?
If you need any ideas on how to structure the article, check the list of Featured Articles for literature and theater. When you think you've add in about all the content you can, then post here and one of us on the FA-Team will do an MOS-check for you. Good luck, and, if you have any questions, please just aks. Karanacs (talk) 14:33, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Juan Manuel Marcos reference
Can we double check the details for the Juan Manuel Marcos reference? We need a date, for one. And I can't find a journal called simply "Latin American Writers." Many thanks, and it's good to see some sources being added here! But we do need to get the details down. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 23:06, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
- I sorted this out: it's not a journal, it's a book. I managed to track down the necessary details: editor, publisher, place of publication etc. But it would save time if you guys were able to put that information in yourselves! This is important. (Not just in wikipedia, of course.) --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 10:07, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
- OK, there is a date in the code there; I added it again, to a different field. But another problem: I note that the inline reference and the full reference don't match up. The former gives a citation to page 16; the latter gives the article page range as 1209-1213 (i.e. lacking a page 16). These need to match up. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 23:10, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
- But this remains a problem. According to the bibliographic info, there can't be a page 16. I'll erase that, and replace it with question marks for now. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 10:08, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Excellent!
You guys are motoring! Excellent! Keep it up. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 22:18, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Lists
Is there a bias against lists in Wikipedia? Jbmurray you have taken apart my list under "honors and recognition" and someone else suggested eliminating the biography chronology.I come at this from the perspective of the reader. Having the ability to find condensed information on the major accomplishments or life events of Augusto Roa Bastos would be very useful no? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nathanlusignan (talk • contribs) 17:51, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
- There are really two types of "articles" at Wikipedia:regular articles and stand alone lists. Regular articles are primarily in prose, and a limited use of lists is permitted (for example, a Bibliography section that lists works by the subject, and sometimes awards or discographies). A lot of times, this information is broken out into stand-alone lists, especially if the list gets quite long. For example, see Timeline of Jane Austen or Elton John discography. There is actually a separate process to make a stand-alone list be a Featured List. More information is at Wikipedia:LISTS. Karanacs (talk) 18:15, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
- I'd add the following. I've seen that wikipedia reviewers tend not to like information that is presented in list form within an article. And I agree with them. Because the point (in the process as a whole) is to take information and present it in a coherent manner. Lists are just a series of bullet points, presented without context or explanation. The point is to present and allow people to understand the major life events (or whatever) of Roa Bastos. So you'll see, I didn't break up your list of awards: I turned it into prose, eliminating what was relatively insignificant, and helping readers to make sense of the rest, showing what weight to give each fact, etc, their precise significance, etc. (NB I'm not saying that bit of prose is perfect; but it's a start, and it should give you a sense of how you should proceed.) This is what the article should be doing as a whole: compiling information, and helping readers to make sense of it. Lists only compile. D'ya see?
Uprated to B-class congrats!
Ok, I just uprated this. You guys did a good job so far expanding the article but theres still much to do for GA. The most pressing issue is that this article is still lacking content, the Hijo de hombre and Style sections need to be expanded, the Themes sections needs to be written. Seconding previous comments, the Chronology section really doesnt belong, all the information that is present in it should be included in the prose of the article. After all thats done we can start worrying about copy-editing. PS: Its good to see that you've added references, keep them coming :) Acer (talk) 20:58, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Another source
I just came across this book, which should be useful:
- The dictator’s dictation : the politics of novels and novelists / Robert Boyers. New York : Columbia University Press, c2005. KOERNER LIBRARY stacks. Call Number: PN3503 .B655 2005
It has a chapter on (or by?) Roa Bastos. You could share it with the Supreme people, too. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 10:07, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Oh, and now I made a whole page of sources that I got from the MLA Bibliography. Hope this helps! Also share and share alike with the people over on I, the Supreme. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 11:06, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Time line section
The time line section needs to be axed. Make sure all the relevant info is included in the article narrative and then delete that section. Timelines should not be included in biographical articles unless they are moved to separate list-type articles. Kaldari (talk) 21:34, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
GA nom
There are two {{fact}} tags still present. These need to be addressed. On the whole, this article is advanced enough to risk a GA nom. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 21:23, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
Good article nomination on hold
This article's Good Article promotion has been put on hold. During review, some issues were discovered that can be resolved without a major re-write. This is how the article, as of April 5, 2008, compares against the six good article criteria:
- 1. Well written?: Article is well-written for the most part, could use a little bit of copy-editing. The lead/intro of the article needs to be expanded (Read the first two paragraphs of WP:LEAD for more on that.)
- 2. Factually accurate?: 2 {{fact}} tags are present in the article and this is an immediate cause for failing the WP:GAN, but shouldn't be too hard to fix that relatively quickly. The first sentence in the Legacy subsection seems to be WP:OR, and you might want to do another read-through of the rest of the article to watch out for that. The presence of ??? in the References subsection is also a bit odd, this should be addressed and fixed.
- 3. Broad in coverage?: A few of the article's subsections are a bit small - specifically Early life: 1917-1932, France: 1976-1989, Return to Paraguay and the Cervantes Prize: 1989-2006, The engaged writer and the condition of human suffering, and in particular, I feel that the last subsection, Legacy, should be expanded a bit more.
- 4. Neutral point of view?: Article is neutrally worded and conforms to NPOV. Pass.
- 5. Article stability? As part of an ongoing active project the article has recently gone through significant changes - but I see no ongoing edit-wars to speak of, and both edit-summaries and discussion on the article's talk page seems quite civil. Pass.
- 6. Images?: Only one image used in the article, depicting the article's subject, in the infobox. This image is fair-use - and though this is not an article on a living person - I wonder if it might be possible somehow to obtain a free-use image of this individual? If this is seen as not possible, no biggie, but it would be nice if someone tried to get a free-use image.
Great work overall, the article has most certainly come a long ways in the last few months. Please post a message to my talk page when you feel the above comments have been addressed.
Please address these matters soon and then leave a note here showing how they have been resolved. After 48 hours the article should be reviewed again. If these issues are not addressed within 7 days, the article may be failed without further notice. Thank you for your work so far. Cirt (talk) 07:29, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
Revisited, comments
- There are still ??? in the References section, this needs to be cleaned up. Cirt (talk) 05:43, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- I dealt with a couple of these. One more: the actual title of the Elena da Costa article in Verity Smith's Encylopedia. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 06:12, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- I have removed the ref and quote. See comments below under "Tidying references". qp10qp (talk) 16:21, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- I dealt with a couple of these. One more: the actual title of the Elena da Costa article in Verity Smith's Encylopedia. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 06:12, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- Wording needs to be adjusted in the Legacy section, still sounds like WP:OR violation to me, that subsection could also use some additional citations to secondary sources - allow the secondary sources to make assertions like: "In his lifetime he made important contributions to Latin American Boom writing and the related Dictator Novel, as well as to the Nuevo Cinefilm movement through screenplays like Alias Gardelito (1961)." and "Roa Bastos' relationship with his country, unbroken by over 40 years of exile, was so important that in 1989 he was invited back by Paraguay's new president, Andre Rodriguez, following the collapse of the Stroessner regime." - otherwise this sounds like this is an assertion/synthesis made by a Wikipedia editor, again, WP:OR violation if that is the case. If this is backed up to a secondary source, show the cites after these assertions/sentences. Cirt (talk) 05:43, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- Hijo de hombre section - formatting problem: This novel portrays the conflict between the governing élite and the oppressed masses in Paraguay from 1912 until just after the end of the Chaco War with Bolivia in 1936.<refname="foster40">Foster 1978, p. 40</ref> Cirt (talk) 05:43, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- Fixed. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 05:58, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- Fixed what? Cirt (talk) 06:05, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- Fixed the citation formatting problem. No? --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 06:12, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- Ah, okay good, thanks. Cirt (talk) 06:14, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- Fixed the citation formatting problem. No? --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 06:12, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- Fixed what? Cirt (talk) 06:05, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- Fixed. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 05:58, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- Paraguay: collective memory - "His writing deploys symbols and multiple narratives that build on the collective memory of the Paraguayan people. Yo, el Supremo is particularly representative of that thematic technique, both in its construction and narrative. This intertextual novel was composed out of the stories, memories and documents of hundreds of Paraguayans over seven years." - Who is making these assertions? Is this backed up to the references at the bottom? If so, there should be cites at the end of these sentences. Same problem at the end of the subsection Engaged writer. Cirt (talk) 05:43, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- I've edited the part you quote and the end of "Engaged writer" by referencing (and expanding, while I was at it). qp10qp (talk) 16:21, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- Has anyone at least tried to find a free-use image? It would sure be nice to have, particularly as this article (hopefully) moves towards WP:FAC potential. One could try contacting the family of Augusto Roa Bastos, or adding some free-use images to the article from historical locations relating to the article's text. Not required, but would be a nice addition. Cirt (talk) 05:43, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- I looked a fair while on the web for appropriate author images. Contacting family would be quite a long shot. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 05:57, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- Okay, just thought I would suggest it as a possibility. Cirt (talk) 06:05, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- I added a picture of de Francia. Better than nothing.qp10qp (talk) 16:21, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- Okay, just thought I would suggest it as a possibility. Cirt (talk) 06:05, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- I looked a fair while on the web for appropriate author images. Contacting family would be quite a long shot. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 05:57, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Please at least address these additional 4 points, the image thing would be a nicety at this point. Cirt (talk) 05:43, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
I've mentioned before that I think there should be a paragraph on El fiscal in "Major works" (and perhaps also Vigilia del almirante). I'll look tomorrow to see if I can help with this. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 06:12, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- I've added something on El fiscal, but not a paragraph. qp10qp (talk) 16:21, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Material removed
Finally, Roa Bastos also received some belated recognition in Paraguay itself, as in 1990 he won the country's Condecoración de la Orden Nacional del Mérito.[citation needed]
I removed the above, since the citation request has not been met. I have searched for a citation, but though the internet is full of this, none of the ready sources meet the reliability requirement. The nearest I can find to a book source is this: Augusto Roa Bastos recibe la Orden Nacional del Mérito otorgada por servicios extraordinarios a la patria. Is this the same thing? The hit is only a snippet, but you could look in Augusto Roa Bastos: écriture et oralité, by Carla Fernandes, if you have it in your library. qp10qp (talk) 16:25, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
- Looks like the same thing. We don't have the book in our library. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 06:10, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
I also removed, pending a citation:
he spent the prize money on educational and literary projects in Paraguay.[citation needed]
Once again, I looked for a good source but could not find one online. The nearest information was in the Guardian obituary, where it said that he supported Paraguayan writers. Perhaps the Bach article says something about it, since it references something similar further on.
Moving these statements out should not damage the article too much and will help meet the GA reviewer's requirements. If citations can be found, please return the material to the article, of course. qp10qp (talk) 16:54, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Cut Britannica refs
I've replaced the Britannica refs. Unfortunately, I can't get the Barnard ref to "jump" to the bibliography (never used Harvard in this way before). Hopefully someone can fix that. qp10qp (talk) 01:08, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
Alias gardelito
I've changed the listed date of this screenplay from 1963 to 1961. Though there are other dates around, 1961 is given by Barnard and Rist, who are filmographers. IMdB, though not reliable overall to be used as a reference, is usually good for dates and agrees. qp10qp (talk) 01:08, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
GA Ready!
Hey there! I've done my best to meet the GA criteria describe above, and I think this article deserves GA status.
- 1. Well written? Copy edits completed for whole page and introduction expanded significantly.
- 2. Factually accurate?: dealt with all inconsistencies and question marks.
- 3. Broad in coverage?: expanded the following subsections: Early life (1917-1932), France (1976-1989), Return to Paraguay and the Cervantes Prize (1989-2006), The engaged writer and the condition of human suffering, and Legacy.
- 4. Neutral point of view?: Already a pass.
- 5. Article stability? Already a pass.
- 6. Images?: Good not find any more legal images. Can anyone help with this?
Cheers, nathanlusignan (talk)
- I will take another look at this soon and reevaluate my above GA Review. Cirt (talk) 01:44, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Cervantes award
- Following the toppling of the Stroessner regime, Roa Bastos won the Premio Cervantes (Cervantes Prize), awarded by the Spanish Royal Academy and its corresponding academies in the various American nations.
- Does this refer to Latin American nations?
- In another part of the article, it says that this prize was given by the Spanish government. Is the Spanish Royal Academy a government body or independent? Perhaps the same wording should be used both times, for consistency. qp10qp (talk) 01:50, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Good point! I have done my best to simply the three references to the Premio Cervantes and make them as consistent as possible.
Headings
I've simplified the headings somewhat. Unfortunately, Wikipedia headings have to be terser than those used for published literary articles, chapter headings, etc. This can make them seem crude; but I do think it looks well on the Table of Contents if headings don't vary too much in length and formula—it gives the impression of a unified approach throughout the article. qp10qp (talk) 02:22, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Tidying references, etc.
I've removed the following quotation and reference for the moment.
"Yo, el supremo takes on a plethora of formats interwoven into a single work - history, novel, sociological essay, moral philosophy, biographical novel, revolutionary pamphlet, testimonial documentary, poetic prose, autobiographic confession, ideological debate over literary limits and , finally a linguistic treatise of sorts reflect on verbal expression and its ability to communicate effectively".
- De Costa, Elena (1997), "??", in Smith, Verity (ed.), Encyclopedia of Latin American Literature, London: Fitzroy Dearborn, pp. 185–186, ISBN 1-884964-18-4.
Having "??" in the ref is a problem pointed out by the GA reviewer. I have not been able to find a copy of this work and cannot name the chapter/entry. On more closely looking at the quotation, I also found it to be incoherent owing to what I strongly suspect is a copying error. I will therefore have a look for a source or quotation that says something similar, to replace it. Of course, the above may be put back in the article if the chapter/article is named and the quotation copyedited by reference to the original. qp10qp (talk) 15:25, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
I've noticed that other bracketed queries have appeared in the visible text of the article, but these should always be placed on the talk page (and/or the material removed). I have removed the editorial comment from the following. Really, the reference should be removed because indeed neither the author nor the ISBN pan out (so I can't correct it myself). I have left it in for the moment since to remove it would also mean removing user:nathanlusignan's recent edits, whereas I feel that he can probably correct this citation error easily and solve what is presumably a matter of typos (I sympathise, because filling in these fiddly templates is tricky).
- Bryan, Ryan, ed. (1991), "Augusto Roa Bastos", Dictionary of Latin American Literature, London: Twayne, pp. 403–405, ISBN 1-884964-18-4. [this reference seems wrong. What's the chapter title? what's the book title? ISBN is wrong. And who's the author, who the editor? And is he Ryan Bryan or Bryan Ryan?!]
I have corrected the Foster ref that was also queried in the article text. I am removing the following (from "other works") for the moment until someone can correct it and replace it in the article (brackets not mine).
- Imagin [??]] y perspectivas de la narrativa latinoamericana actual (1979)
qp10qp (talk) 15:38, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Good eye Qp10qp here are my reference fixes:
- De Costa, Elena (1997), "Caudillismo and Dicatatorship", in Smith, Verity, Encyclopedia of Latin American Literature, London: Fitzroy Dearborn, pp. P.185-186, ISBN 1-884964-18-4.
and
Ryan, Bryan, ed. (1991), "ROA BASTOS, Augusto (Antonio) 1917-", Hispanic Writers: A Selection of Sketches from Contemporary Authors, Detroit: Gale Research Inc., pp. 403-405, ISBN 0-8103-7688-1.
Who names their kid Bryan Ryan anyway? :)
User:nathanlusignan (talk)
- WikiProject templates with unknown parameters
- B-Class South America articles
- Mid-importance South America articles
- WikiProject South America articles
- B-Class biography articles
- B-Class biography (arts and entertainment) articles
- Mid-importance biography (arts and entertainment) articles
- Arts and entertainment work group articles
- WikiProject Biography articles
- B-Class Literature articles
- Mid-importance Literature articles