Talk:United States

Please consider reading the frequently asked questions for this article before asking any questions on this talk page.

Current population (est.): 338,357,000 as of September 4, 2024

Crime and Punishment Bias

Go over the crime and punishment section once again, my fellow wikipedians. tell me if you don't believe that to be a little slanted. the article mentions how high the crime rate is, but only compares it to western-europe natons--leaving out the fact that it is drastically lower than countries like russia, mexico, etc. im not asking to fill the article with some hot-air about how peaceful the south-chicago streets are at 2:00am, but i just don't belive it is written very free of opinion. let me know what yall think. Skiendog (talk) 23:00, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure that I agree that it is as biased as you may think, although I do see what you mean. There is a graph that clearly shows that Russia is higher, and I think it's only fair that it is compared to other developed nations (says developed, not western, so we just need to make sure that it is truly comparing to all developed nations). One thing that I remember reading is that violent crime in the last decade decreased, so if that is true, maybe it's worth mentioning? Kman543210 (talk) 23:11, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

The other problem is that data in Zimbabwe for statistics on violence is weak or totally absent (they have some higher priorities). In countries with less open media and government transparency, the rates can't be verified and are of dubious value for comparison. Saying that the US is, in general, more violent than Western Europe is a valid claim, but I'd agree that it could be misleading and requires more discussion and perspective than can be included in a general article. I'm a rampant emo kid when it comes to this article (obsessed with cutting), so I won't bother stating my preference for what to do with the issue.Somedumbyankee (talk) 00:04, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

United States vs. Russia as Superpower countries

Many people are wondering about the United States and its recession[1] economy as if its still a superpower with the current Iraq war, the falling US dollar[2] [3][4], high US minimum wages being outsourced for Chinese labor, a high unemployment rate, credit crisis[5] through US foreign policy spending, US inflation[6] [7][8] from the Federal Reserve lowing interest rates too low[9], a housing crisis, dependence from oil & high gas prices and etc. Where does the United States stand as a superpower versing Russia’s current superpower status? Read at these sources here to see how the United States is losing or is now considered a former superpower:[10][11] [12]

Now there is Russia; a superpower (the United States only real counter partner as a superpower0[13] [14][15] [16] [17][18] [19] because they have the economics[20] [21], the wealth[22] [23], the diplomatic power[24] [25], ideological[26] [27] [28][29][30][31], technological power[32] [33][34][35][36]& advances[37] than any other country besides the United States (look here on why the US is losing its superpower status read here:[38][39][40]) recognizes Russia as a superpower [41], they have the cultural sector and lets not forget their military forces (supreme). Russia is also the largest military arsenal producer in the world (they hold 73% of the worlds military arsenals market) and they have the worlds largest nuclear weapons arsenal than another other country (newer & older which many are reconditioned as new again) which is 5 times greater than the US has.

So Russia is a Superpower and lets not forget a Space Superpower, remember Russia has a Mar's mission coming up in 2015 [42]to 2024, also a Moon space station planned for 2015[43] without NASA but Russia going by itself; which NASA is out of funding due to a poor current US economy, 2007 & 2008. I do not start this article to brag about how wonderful Russia is, I started it because I am an American and I am seeing how the US is becoming a former superpower; even though I admire Russia as a country, I also admire my own country (USA) too.

Russia is a Superpower, that's plenty of facts in the bag to state they are in that position. The United State's position[44][45] [46]), think what they are in for, a lot in the bag on the whole US economy on all sorts of issues, so we need to understand our Congress has put a lot of our problems right in front of us. US Congressman Ron Paul[47] was the only presidential candidate who would have saved the US as a superpower and our country. We cannot regret Russia is a superpower once again, that was always predicted they would achieve that goal and good for them, they stuck to their dreams and they brought it back. The US has done the opposite and we are heading down down the economic depression [48] tube to a great power nation because of Congress, Unions, Corporate greed and oil.{{unsigned

If you want to save the United States, stop buying from US companies made in China (look for the labels and try to buy made in America only, store like Costco, Walmart, K-Mart, Best Buy, Staples and more are companies that buy made in China goods and we Americans buy these things by the millions each day), second visit Congress personally and request to bring down the US minimum wage and request to cap wages too high to cap them or lower high salaries so greed is enforced to stop US inflation. Read here as if we don’t do something we we’ll really suffer as China’s minimum wage is $.25 cents an hour as China has used its low labor population power to put their country on the Superpower front and we made that happen, please read an listen to this link: [49] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Versace11 (talk • contribs) 00:15, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with improving the article. --Golbez (talk) 01:02, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Commenting on the remarks above re Superpower status, preceding the gratuitous POV paragraph, I checked the WP Superpower article, and see that the lede there asserts that the US and Russia both meet Superpower criteria as of 1991+15=2006. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 01:35, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Except that such a statement was actually added to that article by our new friend here. --Golbez (talk) 04:21, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm.... I hadn't looked at the string of external links seemingly intended to support the assertion in theSuperpower article that Russia "... has regained its role as a superpower once again." I just did that, and the info from those sources don't seem unanimous in supporting that assertion.

• Washington Acknowledges Russia as Superpower from KOMMERSANT (styling itself as "Russia's Daily Online", says yes as of May 26, 2007; Russia: A superpower rises again from CNN, says calls Russia "an energy superpower" as of December 13, 2006
• A Former Superpower Rises Again from Speigel online, says "Second fiddle no longer" as of July 10, 2006
• Russia on the march - again from telegraph.co.uk says "Putin wants to restore Russia to the superpower status it enjoyed under the Soviet Union" as of April 13, 2007
• The re-emerging Russian superpower from russiaprofile.org says "re-emerging superpower" as of January 20, 2006
• Russia in the 21st Century, a book review by cambridge.org says Russia "... intends to reemerge as a full-fledged superpower before 2010"
• The remaking of a superpower from BNET says that Putin "... Putin, understands what it will take to make Russia a global economic player [and Russia has] cast its fortunes with the West, militarily and economically." as of January 2002.

Boiling that down, contrary to the assertion they're cited as supporting in the Superpower article lede, those sources don't seem to firmly and unanimously consider Russia to be a superpower. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 05:19, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Just a comment from an editor who has given up on the Potential superpowers article: "Superpower" on Wikipedia is taken to mean "really cool country that is totally awesome." Expect more challenges. As for the comment, It appears like someone's trying to find a good reason for us to support Ron Paul, but I'll assume he just doesn't the technicalities of what goes on a talk page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Somedumbyankee (talk • contribs) 05:23, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I viewed these articles too, real interesting point made he about the US as a former superpower by the Austin Chronicle Texas[50] is believing more and more each day how bad the United States is economically. We hit $134 a barrel today with oil prices, $5.00 up just today.

Now Russia as a superpower is believing as well. Russia is certaintly in a good position to place there part as a superpower country. As much as what is said in these articles above, the editor is right on the button with the facts as I read them too, Russia is a superpower.--64.69.158.252 (talk) 05:52, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Ugh, I think I fed the troll. Bad SDY.Somedumbyankee (talk) 06:05, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Good points, US is losing its superpower and Russia comes right back again. A good book on Russia as a superpower is called Russia in the 21st Century: The Prodigal Superpower by Steven Rosefielde 2004 [51] The book is about Russia intends to reemerge as a full-fledged superpower before 2010, challenging America and China and potentially threatening a new arms race. Yet with the all the stuff on CNN about them saying Russia is a superpower again, I believe they already are the superpower just without the 15 post Soviet countries they once had. Personally I am impressed considering how broke they were and how Russia paid off its entire deficit in 2006 from 15 years of paying off debt and turning all the post soviet military agencies down in 1991, everything has all been funded for and turned on again, all running again as it did. Really I have to give them hands up for that and Putin, his presidency he is favored almost more than 80% (look at George Bush, he is favored lower than 23%, everybody wants him gone). The Russian’s aren’t dumb, that’s for sure but the United States and the heat of water they are in right now, nothing to laugh about now.

Russia isn't playing around; they are playing their cards carefully. Superpower indeed but the US forcing NATO in post soviet countries over the years is a violation against US's promises to Russia back in 1991 by President Ronald Reagan making a promise and look at it today, NATO is in Czech Rep, Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Romania, Bulgaria, Lithuania and besides Georgia & Ukraine wanting in (just rejected last April 2008 because Russia is really angry at NATO as Russia is the oil supplier for Western/Eastern Europe)[52]. Who brought this on? The United States pushed it and that is against what Reagan promised Russia but the US has violated its promise.

Russia should defend itself from this bull dog the United States has been dying lying to Russia. These countries above shouldn't be NATO members and the US promised no NATO expansion in post soviet countries and look at the US has done. Created an angry superpower back up again Russia.--24.176.166.135 (talk) 09:07, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Also the article by CNN[53] "Russia, a Superpower Raises Again" as goes into details about how Russia was always a superpower regardless if it was always an energy superpower but it goes on to say it was a superpower even after 1991.--24.176.166.135 (talk) 09:15, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm just curious, what changes are we supposed to make to the article based on all of this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.196.76.228 (talk) 13:48, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Can I just point out...

And I'm not being anti-American here or anything, but:

Has anyone else noticed how the article on the USA is actually larger than the article on the human race? I know the whole arrogant American thing is a stereotype and don't get me wrong,I have nothing against you guys, but how much do you have to say about yourselves? Just seems a bit... over the top. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.154.102.89 (talk) 19:29, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

The articles on India and the People's Republic of China are also larger than the article on the human race, and the article on the United Kingdom is even larger than the article on the United States, but I suspect you don't care about THOSE being longer. That wouldn't give you the opportunity to make such an enlightened post. --Golbez (talk) 19:58, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

haha nah sorry, someone pointed this out to me and I just thought it was a laugh, no offence intended my mistake, not much of a wiki browser :-s. Ah well, no harm done. 81.154.102.89 (talk) 20:01, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Ah. --Golbez (talk) 20:18, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I didn't take your comment as anti-American at all, and it's a legitimate observation; however, I'm pretty sure that it's not related to "arrogant" Americans. Keep in mind that this is an English language article, and about 75% of native English speakers come from the U.S. Also, the U.S. has the 3rd largest population in the world, and it makes sense that Americans would know more about their own country and feel more comfortable adding to the U.S. article than other articles. If there are particular parts that can be reduced, you're more than welcome to make changes or suggestions on the talk page. Any improvements are always welcome. Kman543210 (talk) 07:32, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

This article could use some weight loss (by "recommended size" it has enough for 4-5 articles), but I'm a little leery of trimming things since a lot of them are someone's pet project. Human has the same problem, of course. I mean, everyone (as far as I know...) that edits that article is a human, so how fair can it be?Somedumbyankee (talk) 08:49, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

It is a valid point, but only if the article in question is over long because of unnecessary info. Skimming through this article though, this appears not to be the case. (Butters x (talk) 21:10, 25 May 2008 (UTC))

There are some redundancies (see my previous comments) and a lot of extremely specific information that could probably be cut from the overview article. For example, including the exact number of people in congress is critical for the House and Senate articles, but proportional vs. fixed representation is really all that matters for an overview. The consensus appears to be that people are happy with the article at the current size so I don't see a burning reason to whack the F/A-18's nest again.Somedumbyankee (talk) 21:48, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

• There's a lot wrong with the article because there are a few who act as self-appointed guardians (owners?) with no proof of expertize. (I removed that offensive template stating their user names as if they are the authorities on the US) Sorry for sounding snarky, but it's really difficult to edit when there are editors over-protecting such articles. One had the nerve to tell me just because something was in the article for a while, that meant I had no business to change it. (Well, not in those words, but similar and in sentiment.) KGBarnett (talk) 03:23, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

"Not in those words," indeed. You're misrepresenting what happened. Here are the relevant edits and edit summaries: yours ([54]) and mine ([55]). Again, if you want to change information that has appeared in the article for a long time and is well cited, then you should be prepared to make a case for your desired change on the article Talk page.—DCGeist (talk) 05:18, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

This was the disputed content: "Certain Native American traditions and many cultural characteristics of enslaved West Africans were absorbed into the American mainstream." With the citation: "Queralt, Magaly (2000). The Social Environment and Human Behavior: A Diversity Perspective. Boston: Allyn & Bacon, pp. 77, 83. ISBN 0023971916."

Just what are those "certain Native American traditions"? And "enslaved Africans" came from different parts of Africa, and "West Africa" was linked to Culture of Africa - a very poor and unreferenced article, that does NOT help the reader understand what was "absorbed into the American mainstream". Though I did change the link to African American culture, which is a better article, and informs the reader (only IF they bother to click on the link) better. AA is a very distinct and diverse culture in itself. Do you know how many ethnic groups and countries there are in West Africa? They may all look alike to most folks, and they may have general similarities - but they have different customs, histories, languages, and dress. Your "well cited" argument is dubious because there is only one citation - 2 pages of a book that many people do not have access to. How is that "well cited"? In Nigeria alone there are 250 ethnic groups with varying languages and customs. A Nigerian or Guinean visiting America today would not relate to African Americans. And where are the Italians? Mamma mia! KGBarnett (talk) 08:09, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I understand what you mean, and there should be good citations for these claims, but I think that African American and Native American are some of the most commonly thought of groups in American history. If you want to list each individual country you would have to make a large list of them. When you get into that, you are opening up the flood gates because everyone that has had the slightest bit of influence will want to insert their five cents' worth. I'm not saying to refrain from that if anyone wants to take it on, but you have a lot of work ahead of you if that is what you want to do. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.196.76.228 (talk) 14:04, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

KGB, do you realize how illogical your argument is? You say there are many cultures in West Africa. Of course there are. Your solution then is to make the language more broad and more imprecise by expanding it to all of Africa?

Perhaps, and yes. The underlying link that is there now is enough. The majority of sources everywhere say African slaves, or slaves taken from Africa, etc. Did you know what underlining article West Africa was linked, that is, until I changed it? If you didn't know, I'll tell you - it was the Culture of Africa! (BTW, just have a look at that atrocious article). Now that is what is called broad and lacking scholarship. Much worse than anyone's inablity to access the book. How was linking to the "Culture of Africa" article supposed to help those learn the unique culture of enslaved African Americans that was absorbed into the mainstream? Nevermind the citation given.—KGBarnett (talk) 05:11, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

As for your individual inability to verify the citation, that's a shame. Try getting the book via interlibrary loan or order it directly from the publisher. As for the dating of the book: (a) Amazon sales page data is hardly a reliable guide; (b) as you learn about research and scholarship, you will discover this remarkable fact: books are sometimes issued in multiple editions years apart. Incredible, I know, but true.—DCGeist (talk) 04:12, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

DCG, so you realize how pompous you sound? The arrogance you flaunt is shameful. How are the children in undeveloped countries supposed to verify this source, or even Western children wanting to learn more? That's the point. Do you have access to the book in question? Wikipedia is not a source for scholars - it is for the general reader - though scholarship does help in writing articles. So don't lecture me on research and scholarship - projecting that which you do not know upon me. I don't see much in the way of scholarship in the sections I'm questioning - i.e. the demographics and culture sections. I've yet to check the sources for the rest of the article. The burden is on you, or whoever adds to the article, not the reader. And not the editor removing unsourced and/or unverifiable information, nor those questioning the research - scholarly or otherwise. Are you a scholar and/or researcher? If so, in what field? Even so-called scholars and researchers can be wrong - and sometimes even kooks. I do know that.—KGBarnett (talk) 05:11, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Easy guys, easy... also, If I may point out that it's generally preferred to get web-based sources over paper-based ones; as stated above, readers usually won't have the exact edition of Bob's History of America on their desk beside their computer. If there's an Internet source, then that would make life easier for all of us. :) Master of Puppets _{Call me MoP! :)} 05:30, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Food and Regional Cuisine

I'm a life-long Louisiana resident, so I appreciate all of the focus on Cajun and Southern cuisine. But I have a few issues with the brief mentioning of regional cuisine in this article:

• Does "Soul Food", something I only hear about in Lifetime Television movies, really merit a whole sentence? It seems like it could fit into the "syncretic" sentence well.
• If Tex-Mex gets a mention, shouldn't Italian-American and American Chinese cuisine, as well? The muffuletta and fried ravioli definitely aren't traditional Italian fare, and the fortune cookie was invented in San Fransisco. These two seem at least as influential on American cuisine as Tex-Mex.
• ...Maybe I don't get out much, but I'd assume that other regions have their own styles of cuisine?

Dukeofwulf (talk) 03:40, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

The question becomes: how much of a list should be included in an overview article? If I had my way I'd axe all mentions of cuisine beyond a link to the American cuisine article, but I'm biased and obsessed with cutting (I also edit a lot of pages about blood, but I swear I'm not a goth). Even France has the discipline to have cuisine explicitly in a separate article and they're much more food-obsessed than Americans are.Somedumbyankee (talk) 06:48, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Redirect is backwards!

"United States" should be redirecting to "United States of America" - not the other way around. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.216.91.137 (talk) 10:40, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Please click the link at the top about frequently asked questions. --Golbez (talk) 10:56, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Manhattan Project (nuclear weapons)

This line: "the U.S.-based Manhattan Project developed nuclear weapons" indicates, though not explicitly states, that nuclear weapons were made by Americans. However, the team working on the first nuclear weapon was international (see Nuclear_weapon#History for more details). I suggest a small re-write, which would involve the term "international", just to clear things up.--80.126.160.209 (talk) 23:48, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

The first flight happened in North Carolina, but it was done by Ohioans. But NC still put "First in flight" on its license plate. =p --Golbez (talk) 00:51, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I still think a re-write would be simple and informative. Is there anyone who is strongly opposed to this change? (also, Golbez, only Orville came from Ohio, Wilburn was born in Indiana.)--80.126.160.209 (talk) 01:14, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Where's Indiana's "Birthplace of aviation" plates then? ;) (I have no opposition, I just enjoy the comparison) --Golbez (talk) 01:49, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

A lot of "US" hockey teams are mostly Canadians. It's worth mentioning an international staff of scientists, but the US taxpayers paid for the project, so calling it explicitly an international project may be a little off. U.S.-based with international staff is fine, obviously.Somedumbyankee (talk) 03:07, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I think "U.S.-based" to me indicates just that it was based in the U.S. and doesn't indicate that it was an "American-only" project, but I would not object to some wording indicating multi-national project or international, as long as it doesn't make the sentence awkward just for perceived correctness sake Kman543210 (talk) 03:27, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, I think the very presence of the phrase "U.S.-based" in this context indicates that it was not entirely U.S. constituted.—DCGeist (talk) 05:14, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree with DCGeist, US-based doesnt mean exclusively American. Taifarious1 05:23, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

That's my point, it doesn't mean exclusively American but it does not say anything else about the project. Some people might perceive the hint towards international cooperation but I think that a small rewrite would be informative and more clear. Basically, what SDY said is what I was planning on doing.--80.126.160.209 (talk) 12:25, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Just wanted to clarify my previous point: according to the article it was a joint US-UK-Canada project that was run in the US. Looking at the various sites out on the interwebnet, it seems like most of the work was done by the US, but there was a substantial amount of British funding as well [56]. "U.S.-based with Allied support" might be a better way to mince the words.Somedumbyankee (talk) 14:56, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Okay, this is weird. If you look at the Atomic Bomb wikipage (Atomic bomb), the history part of this article clearly states there were Germans involved. Not only Germans, but also: "many displaced scientists from central Europe". I believe the term "international" applies in this case. The "USA+Canada+UK" thing seems a bit rubbish to me, to be honest. The agreement you posted has nothing to do with the actual development of the first Atomic Bombs.--80.126.160.209 (talk) 19:39, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

The US/UK/Canada thing is from the Manhattan Project page. The governing committee for "tube alloys" was 3 americans, 2 brits, and a canadian, so that seems to line up. That the US was able to cut off all foreign access (including to the British, who redeveloped a bomb independently) after the war kind of indicates who was in charge, though, and almost all of the research was done in the US. Calling it a truly "international project" would be misleading.Somedumbyankee (talk) 19:49, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Now see here, I realize who was in charge, who provided money and who took the loot, BUT, that doesn't mean this was no international project, again, I refer you to this article (Atomic bomb#History), which also speaks of the Manhattan Project. Not calling this an international project is not only misleading, but plain wrong.--80.126.160.209 (talk) 20:44, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

You could actually argue that the United States in general is an international project on similar grounds (only a tiny fraction of us are natives). Even just "U.S.-based" implies that there were others involved, and who they were in the middle of WWII should be kind of obvious. An unqualified label of "international project" would be misleading (Britain was the only major partner, and the only reward they got was being on the winning side of the war). Including a full history of the project here is way more than necessary for an article that's already massively overweight.Somedumbyankee (talk) 01:21, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Culture

This statement "Certain Native American traditions and many cultural characteristics of enslaved West Africans were absorbed into the American mainstream." is dubious and an embarrassment. The source is unavailable and therefore unverifiable. As for the "scholarly source", the woman who wrote the book does have a PhD, but in Social Work, not anthropology, and all of her papers are about children's health care, education and human services. More importantly - this statement is false no matter what the source says. Native Americans where almost obliterated by Europeans, and their land taken away. Enslaved Africans where stolen and had been stripped of their names, heritage, culture, dignity and much more. African American culture is a distinct one, one the influences the mainstream, not the other way around. The same for Native Americans. Their traditions have not been absorbed, and are too, a distinct culture. If a source is not provided, or that statement not rewritten, then it needs to be removed.KGBarnett (talk) 04:59, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I may be jumping to conclusions, but you sound very angry. NPOV and fury don't work well together, so let's take a deep breath and figure out how to fix the issue. The source is hard to reject since it's a dead tree edition, but physical books are not prohibited by WP:V (good thing, the AABB tech manual is kind of critical to some of the editing I've been doing). I don't see the statement as patently false, but it may be oversimplified. This is a common problem for a summary article. What language would you propose including instead?Somedumbyankee (talk) 05:21, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I took that sentence to mean that the cultures and traditions influenced the American mainstream, which I can't see how that could be false. Kman543210 (talk) 05:33, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Somedumbyankee, (I'll ignore the assumtions, as that only seems to compound problems). The book is a dead tree edition for a reason. The subject was limited, and not apt for a cultural section of this type. I understand that a summary can be problematic, because of the need for brevity, but that doesn't mean one cannot be brief and precise. Especially for a "Good Article." If the main article was any better, I doubt I'd be this insistent. Kman, if that's how you took it, you are smart, and read between the lines. Not everyone does, or can see that. Absorbed into mainstream can be interpreted to mean, swallowed up, or assimilated, blended - as if it no longer exists. Influenced is a better word. But, the source does need to be changed. Social Work is very different than cultural anthropology and even social science. It's like comparing apples to strawberries. How about something like this, "Certain Native American traditions and many cultural characteristics of enslaved West Africans, have greatly influenced American mainstream culture." Or something along those lines. What do you think? I have to go now, and don't know when I'll be able to get back here. It could be as early as tomorrow, but more likely a day or more. I have a busy schedule.-KGBarnett (talk) 07:31, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

(ec) First regarding my edit summary here, apologies to KGB, I hadn't realized you already had brought this to the talk page. However, I fail to see what exactly you're upset about. The fact that the hodge-podge that is American culture has been influenced by American Indians and slaves and their descendants is, I would think, indisputable. Yes, both of these peoples have their own distinct culture - but to suggest that they have not had an impact on American culture on the whole is foolish in the extreme. Also, the fact that you don't happen to own a copy of a work hardly means that it is "unavailable and therefore unverifiable." As Somedumbyankee observed, you seem to feel particularly passionate about this subject; while I wouldn't dream of suggesting that you not edit the article, I will say that many editors, myself included, steer clear of articles where we have strong opinions, lest we become unable to remain neutral on the subject and start POV-pushing (I'm not saying that's what's happening here). faithless (^speak) 07:54, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I think KGBarnett's suggested sentence is exactly how the sentence was intended, so I agree with changing it to "have greatly influenced..." I can see how "absorbed" might be misinterpreted as "disappeared." Kman543210 (talk) 08:13, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) I think that the {{dubious}} template was the wrong one to place. That template is intended to tag after a specific statement or alleged fact that is subject to dispute. However, its placement follows the citation of a source which (assuming good faith here), supports an assertion. The cite mentions particular pages in a particular book where support for the assertion is to be found. Presuming that the citation is valid and that the cited source does support the assertion, then the disagreement is with the cited source, not with article. The article makes the claim that the specific cited source does support the assertion and, assuming good faith, we can take that to be true until refuted (and either removed or tagged with a {{failed verification}} tag). If there is serious disagreement with the cite-supported source, one proper way to approach the resolution to the disagreement is to balance the cite-supported point of view of the assertion with a different cite-supported assertion — saying something like, "Magaly Queralt, writing on the effect of social environment on human behavior, asserted that many cultural characteristics of enslaved West Africans were absorbed into the American mainstream.(Queralt book cited here) John Smith, however, asserts that [...] .(Smith book or online article cited here)" In the absence of wikilinked articles giving some background on Queralt and Smith, some descriptive indication of their qualifications, standing, etc.probably ought to be supplied either inline or along with the footnoted supporting citations. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 08:57, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

While the existing language of the article was never false, as KGB has so passionately claimed, it was certainly less precise than it could have been and, in the case of the Native American reference, possibly misleading in terms of emphasis--though any American who's ever had a cigarette has honored the influence of Native American culture. I've adduced an additional source for the African passage and made the language much more precise--naming the major ethnic/language groups that were influential, and distinguishing between those whose traditions were absorbed--hey, how 'bout "adopted"--directly by the mainstream and those that were more central to the development of African American culture.—DCGeist (talk) 12:01, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for expanding the section, DCG. And to others who attempted dialog. But, may I suggest that people refrain from jumping to conclusions by projecting motives, and emotions onto others whom they know nothing about? It's not constructive, for it can put one on the defensive, thus drive away good people from the project. For those who care, and should, I will state my motives; they are genuine and good willed, I solemnly swear. I am not angry nor passionate about this subject. I stated my concern in a matter-of-fact way - it is not my problem if others interpret that as emotional, angry, and/or tendentious. I almost took the bait, and became those things. I'm sorry for that. Also it is not helpful - for it deflects from the bettering of the articles. Comment on content, not on individuals (unless they do it first, or course. ;p). Also, this article should not be written for Americans, but for those who have never visited the US, or who wants to learn more about it. This adds to the animosity that non-Americans have about America and its people - that Americans are arrogant, revisionists, and hypocritical. Do I have to add smilie faces, and flower my already long posts so as not to be judged unfairly? "First remove the plank from your own eyes, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from another's" I get the impression that most did not read my posts, but barely skimmed them. I wrote longer posts, hoping to be understood, but it has seemed to back-fire. C'est la vie. Perhaps I should be more blunt and less wordy - would I then be judged in more positive way? Thanks again.-KGBarnett (talk) 00:12, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

"Blunt" may not be the right word, but long posts tend to sound like ranting and may be taken poorly. If you have a lot to say, try bulleted lists and similar formatting, it makes it a lot easier to read and might avoid confusion.Somedumbyankee (talk) 00:33, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Gun Violence part Edit

I know that we discussed this before but I am not a registered editor, so I cannot get past the lock on the article. I was going to put in a neutral statement about the amount of guns in the crime and punishment section of the article but...the lock. Does somebody want to insert the statement we discussed before? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.196.76.228 (talk) 15:27, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Languages

That English is the only language listed as an official language is sort of misleading. Quite a few of the non-states, such as Puerto Rico and American Samoa, have other official languages. I don't see any way to do this briefly in the infobox, so I've removed the statement about English as an official language. That it is the de facto national language is really the key point anyway.Somedumbyankee (talk) 22:10, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Superpower

I've seen the new comments being made that Russia is a superpower and United States is no longer a superpower and stating Russia is far more powerful than the USA. ROFL in all the time I've been on Wikpedia I don't think I've ever heard something so crazy which someone seriously believed. This is not just a ridiculous Russian nationalist fantasy, it's sickening. Fanatical Russians clinging to the idea their finished state is actually still something for the world to fear because their country is only held together by the idea that it should wreak war on others, and America hating sympathisers who look for and support any possible states or entities that could rival the United States, no matter how brutal and disgusting they may be, whether it be such likes as China or Al-Quaeda. Russia is an absolutely finished state with a rapidly falling population that is now even smaller than Pakistan's, it's economy sits in a pathetic 11th position in the world which has been claimed many times is too low to be in the G8, its military spending in a poor 7th position with only a tiny number of its roting military still functioning, internal conflicts and borders falling apart with its regions such as Chechnya breaking away and technically became independent states with their own presidents.

How can Russia even for a second be seriously considered a superpower let alone be more powerful than the US when it can only just scrape in to claim to be a great power considering most other great powers such as the UK, France, Germany, Japan, Italy, and China out perform Russia in economic rankings and military spending rankings. Infact all great powers mentioned above have larger economies than Russia and only Italy spends less on its military, and not by very much.

Russia may very well have large reserves of oil and gas and tries to claim these make it oh so powerful of a country because it has reserves in similar size to that of Iran. Thing is reserves of oil and gas in similar size to that of Iran's have not made Iran a superpower, infact Iran isn't even a great power. Russia has a medium economic growth rate traditionally around 5% a year. The United States has an economic growth rate traditionally around 4% a year. When does Russia's economy expect to by pass America's? 2800? 5% economic growth is actually pretty poor for a developing economy, with such likes as China and India growing at around 9% or more, and it's only 1% higher than America's and America is fully developed. In fact how can the Russian economy even try to compare to the US economy when it's not even a developed economy?

It gets even more ridiculous when you try to compare numbers between Russia and the United States. Russia's $1.2 trillion economy versus the United States $13.7 trillion economy. That's around 13 times larger. The US economy equals 25% of the world's GDP. Russia's $40 billion military spending versus the USA's $583 billion military spending. The USA's military spending is 50% of the world's military spending. Russia's rapidly declining population of 142 million people versus the USA's rapidly rising population of 304 million people. When Russia's economy equals 26% of the world's GDP, its military spending equals 51% of world military spending, and a rapidly growing population of 305 million people THEN AND ONLY THEN is it a superpower more powerful than the United States

In case even all this still has't proved how pathetic Russian power is as of 2008 I've laid out Russia's rankings in important areas associated with power

• Economy

2007 List by the International Monetary Fund

Rank Country GDP (millions of USD) — Template:Country data World World 54,311,608 — European Union 16,830,100 1 United States 13,843,825 2 Japan 4,383,762 3 Germany 3,322,147 4 China 3,250,827 5 United Kingdom 2,772,570 6 France 2,560,255 7 Italy 2,104,666 8 Spain 1,438,959 9 Canada 1,432,140 10 Brazil 1,313,590 11 Russia 1,289,582 12 India 1,098,945 13 South Korea 957,053 14 Australia 908,826 15 Mexico 893,365 Military Rank Country Military expenditures (USD) Date of information — Template:Country data World World Total 1,200,000,000,000 2007 (projected est.) — NATO Total 849,875,309,000 1 United States 583,283,000,000 2008 — European Union Total 311,920,000,000 2007 2 France 74,690,470,000 2008-2009 3 United Kingdom 68,911,000,000 FY 2008-09 4 China 59,000,000,000 2008 5 Germany 45,930,000,000 2008 6 Japan 41,750,000,000 2007 7 Russia 40,000,000,000 2008 8 Italy 32,600,000,000 2008 (est.) 9 Saudi Arabia 31,050,000,000 2008 10 South Korea 28,940,000,000 2008 11 India 26,500,000,000 2008-2009[57] 12 Brazil 25,396,731,055 2008 13 Australia 20,727,710,000 2008 14 Canada 17,150,002,540 2008 15 Spain 15,792,207,000 2007 Population Rank Country/territory/entity Population Date % of world population Source — Template:Country data World World 6,671,226,000 July 1, 2007 100% UN estimate 1 People's Republic of China 1,436,933,000 September 4 2024 21.54% Chinese Population clock 2 India 1,384,153,000 September 4 2024 20.75% Indian Population clock 3 United States 338,357,000 September 4 2024 5.07% Official USA Population clock 4 Indonesia 231,627,000 3.47% UN estimate 5 Brazil 186,917,074 May 27, 2008 2.8% Official Brazilian Population clock 6 Pakistan 213,916,000 September 4 2024 3.21% Official Pakistani Population clock 7 Bangladesh 158,665,000 2.38% UN estimate 8 Nigeria 148,093,000 2.22% UN estimate 9 Russia 142,008,800 January 1, 2008 2.13% Federal State Statistics Service 10 Japan 127,720,000 March 1, 2008 1.92% Official Japan Statistics Bureau estimate 11 Mexico 106,535,000 1.6% UN estimate 12 Philippines 88,574,614 August 1, 2007 1.33% 2007 Official NSO Census Results 13 Vietnam 87,375,000 1.31% UN estimate 14 Germany 82,244,000 November 30, 2007 1.23% Federal Statistics Office estimate 15 Ethiopia 77,127,000 July 2007 1.16% Ethiopia Central Statistics Agency Signsolid (talk) 08:33, 31 May 2008 (UTC) I dont think its that much of a stretch to think that Russia can be considered a superpower, referring back to the soviet union, that was one of the only 2 in the world, but today it is hard to find similarities between the two, but Russia still has the same, if not larger stockpiles of nuclear weapons than the US, a good indicator in todays world of power status, economic power is also lacking but its oil and gas reserves are also important in these terms, but most importantly, the fact that russia is by far the largest country by land area in the world. but reflecting on history of Russia, like in world war I and II, the russian military or the "russian steamroller" (despite the fact that they were seriously underequipped and poorly managed) but still the sheer numbers of viable troops in russia also a key characteristic. P.S. Mind the spelling and grammar mistakes ;) Taifarious1 09:03, 31 May 2008 (UTC) "Blunt" may not be the right word, but long posts tend to sound like ranting and may be taken poorly. If you have a lot to say, try bulleted lists and similar formatting, it makes it a lot easier to read and might avoid confusion.Somedumbyankee (talk) 16:19, 31 May 2008 (UTC) Was that meant for me or 'Signsolid'? Taifarious1 01:55, 1 June 2008 (UTC) Signsolid. Actually, it's a comment I already made further up the page, but it's just as applicable here.Somedumbyankee (talk) 04:02, 1 June 2008 (UTC) This is just speculation on my part but does anybody else think that the Soviets never went away? I think they are holding to Lenin's advice, "one step backwards, two steps forward"? USA map with major cities The goal of creating such a map and including it in the article is an admirable one, but there have been no less than three problems so far: If the primary goal of the map is to show where the cities are, it clearly failed at the size it was included at The base design is identical to our large states map, so it looks redundant in an unprofessional way The choice of cities has remained essentially random--for instance, Seattle (pop. 582,174) and Albuquerque (pop. 534,089) were included; Houston (pop. 2,169,248), San Antonio (pop. 1,296,682), and San Diego (pop. 1,256,951) were not. However, these three problems can all be resolved if the map is improved. With a more rational selection of cities, the map could simply be substituted at large-scale for the existing large-scale map in the States section. I propose that such a map should include the twenty largest cities in the country: New York NY Los Angeles CA Chicago IL Houston TX Phoenix AZ Philadelphia PA San Antonio TX San Diego CA Dallas TX San Jose CA Detroit MI Jacksonville FL Indianapolis IN San Francisco CA Columbus OH Austin TX Memphis TN Fort Worth TX Baltimore MD Charlotte NC Then you could add the core cities of the twenty largest metro areas if they are not already included (adding nine for a total of 29): Miami FL Washington DC Atlanta GA Boston MA Riverside CA Seattle WA Minneapolis MN St. Louis MO Tampa FL There are other possible logical systems for choosing which cities to represent, but some logical system must be used in order to avoid OR and POV.—DCGeist (talk) 08:52, 1 June 2008 (UTC) I don't think the map really adds much, and I'm going to add a voice in opposition to it (in any form) because this article is already well beyond a practical size. If the map is added, at least one of the other maps should be removed.Somedumbyankee (talk) 09:07, 1 June 2008 (UTC) Well, that's what I was suggesting--after the necessary improvement, a straight switch with the existing map in the States section.—DCGeist (talk) 09:13, 1 June 2008 (UTC) Featured Article Why isn't this article featured? Does it not meet all the guidelines for featured articles? Idontknow610TM 12:27, 1 June 2008 (UTC)