Talk:Caravaggio

name

The proper title for this entry is Caravaggio with a dab at top about Caravaggio, Italy and a note about Caravaggio (movie) below. That's the NCP (normal cultural perspective). Wetman 23:02, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Agreed. I almost didn't find the page because of the odd naming. This should be the default page for "Caravaggio", with the disamb linked from it. Mpolo 10:26, Nov 13, 2004 (UTC)

Agreed. For now, I've moved the disambiguation page from Caravaggio to Caravaggio (disambiguation), and made Caravaggio in a redirect to Michelangelo Merisi. If noone complains about this, an administrator can move this page to Caravaggio later. Eugene van der Pijll 13:19, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I object. I think that Caravaggio should certainly be a redirect here (with a note on this page saying caravaggio is also a town and movie. But that the main article should stay here at Michelangelo Merisi, since that was after all his name. The bellman 08:26, 2004 Dec 21 (UTC)

I think it's more than a little pretentious, to be frank. --Wetman 00:57, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

English Version v. French Version

I have just finished reading the French version of the article, which is currently featured on fr.wikipedia. It contains a veritable mother lode of information relative to the English version and IMHO does an altogether better job with Merisi. I suggest incoporating much of the French article into the English.

La traduction, c'est à vous la faire, hein? --Wetman 00:57, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Unless anyone is willing to translate the long French list, may I suggest an image gallery (like the one in the article for Jacques-Louis David), based on this Wikimedia Commons page? Note that Caravaggio redirects to 'Michelangelo Merisi da Caravaggio' there. –Ham 18:54, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

I have started translating and merging. will eventually get through it. also wikilinks need converting. please be patient. help welcome....PalX 22:09, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Bien, quand vous avez fini, vous pouvez faire le 'merging,' hien? PiCo 11:10, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Year of birth

The first line of this entry reads 1573, though if you look 3-4 lines down when M.M. is compared to Shakespeare, his year of birth is listed as 1571. Which is correct? Unless I missed it there is nothing in the entry about there being confusion about his y.o.b. Dismas 05:29, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

i agree. this needs to be resolved, at least for this article. Whateley23 06:39, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

and, to be fair, i've done some research: i find 1573, c.1572, 1571, 1573, 1571, 1571, 1573, and 1571, with the date ranging from September 28-29, on 8 websites. that's 4 for 1571, 3 for 1573, and 1 for c.1572. who wants to make the decision? Whateley23 06:46, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

The question has to be settled by scholarship, not Googleship :). It was 1571, according to the most recent research - this is pretty universally accpeted now by scholars. PiCo 11:08, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

The September 28 page had him born in 1573. I changed that to 1571 but want to note that any changes here should be reflected there for congruence. - Quartermaster 23:29, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Caravaggio's sexuality

These two categories (Gay, Lesbian, or Bisexual people and LGBT categories )are listed at the bottom of the article but the article makes no mention of M.M.'s sexual orientation. It seems to me that we should have some sort of text relating to this especially since he was a painter of such religious work. Afterall, religion and homosexuality/bisexuality don't historically get along together very much at all. I'd add any pertinent info myself but I'm not an art scholar by any means. Dismas 07:37, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

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I normally don't like writing about an artists' sex life as it seems essentially irrelevant to their work and the reason for their fame. But in Caravaggio's case his sexuality pervades his art. I've just done a big re-write of the article and made it clear that he was gay, without dwelling on the fact outside the relationship to his art. PiCo 11:06, 3 November 2005 (UTC) 11:06, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

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Be careful, because there is no tangible evidence of of C. being homosexual. Legal documents only mention his female paramours. Detractors' invective is unreliable and inappropriate. In any case perceived "homoeroticism" is only noted in his works executed for DelMonte, and reflect the client's taste rather than the artist's.Galassi 19:48, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

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What about Peter Robb's recent biography which clearly mentions homosexuality and the constent reappearance of the same young male models in C's paintings? See this article too. I think mention should at least be made of the possibility that C's had homosexual or bisexual relations and avoid taking part in that age old conspiracy conveniently erasing LGBT lives from history books. I suggest this (or something similar) should be added to the article (adapted from the link above), together with a category link to LGBT people.

Although no conclusive evidence of Caravaggio's sexuality has survived, remarks made by contemporaries, coupled with the aggressive representation of male eroticism in his paintings, suggest that Caravaggio was actively bisexual, if not primarily homosexual.

Thank you. Zefrog 00.54, 28 August 2006

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I deleted this para from the intro:

In recent decades several scholars have made aggressive partisan claims that the eroticism in his paintings suggests that Caravaggio was actively bisexual, if not primarily homosexual (Peter Robb's biography). Although no conclusive evidence of Caravaggio's sexuality has survived (court documents only mention his female paramours), these scholars rely on remarks made by Caravaggio's detractors. See also.

My view is that the sexual orientation or practices of an artist - any artist - are irrelevat to his public life. To put that another way, if a starnger came up and asked Caravaggio what he did in the bedroom, he'd have told them to bugger off - and being Caravaggio, he might have made his point very rudely. For that matter, the private lives of Picasso, or of that man who creates stuffed puppydogs, or of the earlycaveman who decorated his rocks with bisons, are equally irrelevant to their status as artists...except when the sexuality spills into the art. When this happens, then it deserves a mention - and this Wiki article does mention Caravaggio's allegedly homoerotic art. So my view is that the sentence attached to footnote 9, and that footnote, provide all that needs to be said on this subject. PiCo 02:43, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

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Not to mention that the deleted material was not couched in the most neutral terms imaginable. Haiduc 03:12, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

PICO's phrasing is more or less acceptable.

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As to Hajduk, he could use some neutrality in his pederasty article that waxes poetic to high heaven.Galassi 14:01, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

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I had added the following paragraph (which I think was acceptable and balanced) but it was changed to something biased: "Although no conclusive evidence of Caravaggio's sexuality has survived, remarks made by contemporaries, coupled with the aggressive representation of male eroticism in his paintings, suggest that Caravaggio was actively bisexual, if not primarily homosexual. Peter Robb's biography refers to the constant reappearance of the same young male models in Caravaggio's paintings; those young men being the painter's live-in apprentices. See also."

I think someone should decide once and for all what should be done with this. Also I don't think Pico's argument about what people do in their bed rooms is relevant. This is supposed to be a biography of Caravaggio: ie what happened in his life. If we follow the argument, mentions of marriages and children should be removed from all entries on the site... Zefrog 22.13 01 september 2006 (GMT)

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I assure you that some of my own early work would be taken as homoerotic by some idiot of a scholar 300 years from now, while it was simply realism well done. Caravaggio's 2 documented paramours are women. And opinions of detractors are extremely unscholarly. The most we could hang on C. is pandering to Del Monte and Co.'s taste. He simply diligently did what was commissioned to do by a Cardinal who was a documented aberrant.Galassi 23:54, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

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Just to set the record straight, this is not supposed to be a biography of Caravaggio (and I should know, since I was responsible for the article in its present form): it's supposed to be an assessment of his art both in itself and in the wider context of the Western tradition. The biographical element is mingled with that, but is meant to be subordinate.

As for what's actually known, and therefore sayable, about C's sexuality, the answer is: nothing. We don't know what the tastes of Del Monte and his circle were - the allegations of Del Monte's homosexual tastes were made by an enemy, and his own letters speak wistfully of memories of female courtesans. There's no evidence whatsoever that Giustiniani had eccentric tastes. As for the evidence of C's own sex life, it's even scarcer than that about Del Monte and G. One court document refers to Lena as "Caravaggio's girl", and offhand I can't recall any other reference at all. At the libel trial a witness for the prosecution referred to a certain Gian-Batiste as Caravaggio's bardassa, which is a male prostitute, but it wasn't done as an allegation, merely mentioned in passing. There's the famous reference to the model for Amor as a boy who "lay with" C, but in 17th century English "to lie with" simply meant to live with - nothing more. Plus the reference to the model for David as "il suo Caravaggino" - his own little Caravaggio - but what that means is anyone's guess. In short, the historical record is far too skimpy to allow anything at all to be said. What can be said, and should be, is that beginning with Donald Posner - and not before - C's sexuality has been a subject of debate. It should also be noted that not just Robb, but more respected scholars such as Langdon and Puglisi, accept a homoerotic content to C's art - not his life, but his art. PiCo 03:53, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

PiCo, you sound like a reasonable man. So given the scarsity of reliable scabrous detail I propose to move this into Footnotes with mentioning that POV, together with Calvesi's (see the Italian Carav. Wiki for the exact quote). Also BARDASSA may or may not mean prostitute. It also has meanings of MESS, CHAOS and WHOREHOUSE.Galassi 13:10, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

• Apparently there's a heterosexist aversion present here to even including mention in his article of the common belief/rumor that Caravaggio was/may have been homosexual or bisexual. And to say that this "isn't supposed to be a biography of Caravaggio" is perhaps the most ludicrous thing I've read on this site. This is indeed supposed to be a biography of Caravaggio, and even if the very person who created his page here contested that it wouldn't change that fact. It's what pages about individuals on this site are for. If one wants to create a page that is supposed to supposedly be solely about his art and its influence, then that page should be titled something like "The Artwork of Caravaggio". Zefrog is correct in his statement that according to the logical double-standards of certain others involved in this discussion, mention of all other heterosexual relationships between notable persons or at least artists with articles on this site should therefore be removed as well, which is ridiculous. Space in this article should absolutely be devoted to his personal life and to his (possible) sexuality, which is a subject of modern and historical social interest and relevance. Adrigon 04:37, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

• • Indeed, but only when any reliable evidence is found. To date there is none.Galassi 13:24, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Survey

I also nearly didn't recognize this page, because of its title. I find this choice peculiar. I would like to call a survey for discussion of this question; which I would do by approval voting between Michelangelo Merisi, Michelangelo Merisi da Caravaggio, and Caravaggio (with other nominations acceptable).

Comments? Septentrionalis 02:23, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Hearing no objection, therefore: Approval voting until 18:32, 25 July 2005 (UTC), or consensus (one sentence comments here please):

Michelangelo Merisi

Michelangelo Merisi da Caravaggio

1. Acceptable, but do not prefer Septentrionalis 18:32, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
2. Look at this title as a compromise. – AxSkov (T) 04:55, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Caravaggio

1. Normal English usage. Septentrionalis 18:32, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
2. preferred due to usage Whateley23 00:04, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
3. I don't consider myself an idiot and I'd never heard anything but "Caravaggio" until I read the article. Dismas 00:26, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
4. Most common name used in English. – AxSkov (T) 04:55, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Other (please specify)

Comments

Consensus seems to have been achieved; I've moved the page. Eugene van der Pijll 17:37, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Calling of St Matthew caption

I don't understand what this is supposed to mean: "In the chiaroscuro of a shaft of light, Jesus' intervention lifts a genre scene to sublime theater." what's a genre scene? the link to genre doesn't mention any genre scene. if the caption is correct i think it needs some more explaining. Xrchz 05:18, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

The caption is correct. As the link explains, 'genre' is a vague term meaning generalised subjects that get treated frequently. Christ's calling of the various Apostles is one such genre from religious art. The caption is saying that what could have been a run of the mill treatment of a hackneyed subject, has instead been made exceptional by the inovative use of chiaroscuro. (At least, it was innovative at the time - inevitably it was overused by the Baroque artists who followed Caravaggio and became hackneyed anyway. But that lay in the future, and in any case Caravaggio's realism was not copied by later Baroque art). PiCo 10:59, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I beg to differ with the comment that "genre" is a vague term; IMHO "genre" pictures are paintings representing scenes from everyday life (see for instance, "The Cardsharps"), as opposed to history paintings. "The Calling" is a history painting, term reserved for painting of scenes from the Bible or the mythology. The point is that history paintings tell a story, whereas a genre scene only shows everyday people going about their business. The nuance is important, because for 17th century painters and patrons, "history" paintings were considered a nobler art than "genre" paintings or landscape paintings. In other words C. never meant "The Calling" to be a genre painting. I propose then the following caption: "The chiaroscuro of a shaft of light, expresses in a blink of an eye the turning of St Matthew's destiny, with no artefact, flying angels, parting clouds or the like". Harol2 18:28, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

You've convinced me about the word 'genre'. I'm not suer about you proposed text - it's the 'chiaroscuro of a shaft of light' that bothers me. But I like your noting the way the scene is so naturalistic, without the usual angels and clouds - Christ couild easily be mistaken for a customer at an inn asking for a beer or whatever the local tipple was. Here's a quote from John Gash that expresses the same idea I think: "The typically Caravaggesque beam of light ...symbolizing matthew's conversion, has a further, illusionistic effect in that it enters the picture from the dierction of a real window in the chapel." No mention of chiaroscuro, but I think it reads much better. If you like you might be able to combine that with your own sentence. PiCo 21:06, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

How about this?: "The beam of light, which enters the picture from the direction of a real window, expresses in the blink of an eye the conversion of St Matthew, the hinge on which his destiny will turn, with no artifacts, flying angels, parting clouds or such like." Harol2 10:50, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Or: "The beam of light, which enters the picture from the direction of a real window, expresses in the blink of an eye the conversion of St Matthew, the hinge on which his destiny will turn, with no flying angels, parting clouds or other artifacts."? PiCo 09:02, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

OK for me. Harol2 18:00, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

I changed the caption and took the liberty of making the picture a little bigger. Harol2 19:57, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Rewrite

I've made a complete re-write in an attempt to improve the article. I hope that I've covered all the points made in the original - sometimes I've incorporated the older material.

As I've mentioned in the intro to the new entry, the web material on Caravaggio's life is highly unreliable, and this is based primarily on Peter Robb's biography, checked against a number of other books.

If I've trodden on any toes by making such a total re-write, I apologise.

PiCo 05:06, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Kudos to PiCo. I had made a number of earlier edits ("even in a violent time"), of which one or two sentences survive. But PiCo has done the radical rewrite that the article deserved, and his acknowledgment of Robb (is giving credit where credit is due. At the same time, it also includes sources besides Robb, and it is readable and well-written. Good job! GaryDave 11/10/05

Good Job. Caravaggio is cool.
May I suggest you add back the picture of 'The Taking of Christ'. I think it's his best and adds to the article considerably. Also could somebody add a pic of 'The Denial of Saint Peter'. I went to see it in NY recently. It's an amazing piece of work. Mesmerising stuff. count the fingers. PalX 09:21, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. As for returning the 'Taking of Christ' picture, unfortunately I don't know how. Feel free to add it - I suggest the second half of the article, which is a bit heavy on text and needs some illustrations. I'd also like to see either Virgin and Serpent put in if it's possible, and the St Ursula. PiCo 11:03, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I just had a look at the French Wiki version. It has many excellent illustrations. I'd like to see them all used if possible. Can you do this for me? PiCo 11:14, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

ok guys. we have a majority I reckon. will add some pics. PalX 12:32, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

UHM! Yes, what you wrote is interesting and well written. But I seem many of the particulars I had added about the biography had went lost. Moreover, you should put the links to the single works articles (I'm adding them slowly, if nobody checked this. And... you can help - see next section!) in the text. Format for the not already present Wiki articles should be:

• [[<Opera name> (Caravaggio)|<Opera name>]]

Good work on adding the images to this article - I particularly like the idea of putting Judith depaitating Holofernes into a section headed Death and Rebirth! (Except poor Holofernes never got reborn...).

I've added or revised some articles on individual works, including Amor Vincit, Boy with Basket, and Boy Peeling. Probably I'm still making mistakes with wikification, but learning slowly (I hope). A problem with titles is that there are so many alternatives - I've noticed that I've created an article called Boy Peeling Fruit, when the common title seems to be Boy Peeling a Fruit - if anyone can fix that I'd be grateful. PiCo 03:41, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Adding single works articles

If somebody wanna collaborate, I've got permission from www.wga.hu to use their photos and captions, so you need simply to upload the picture (if not existing) and copy-paste the caption (and improve it, if you have material) to obtain a good Wikipedia article about a single work. I'm also struggling with Botticelli, Raphael, Mantegna, Masaccio, etc.. If you can, give a glance. Art is something not so profoundly treated in Wikipedia. Thanks.

Could you sign your comments please? Yes, I'd love to collaborate - if you can provide the pictures, I can write articles, beginning probably with the images that already pasted into this article.PiCo 09:00, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Excellent work. I have been working a little with major Italians, but have tried to concentrate on "lesser Italians", the second stringers like Pontormo, Domenico Di Bartolo, Il Pordenone, etc. I have particular distaste for the vacuity of 1911 Brittanica statements. I feel like I'm being toured through a museum by a cheap guide, who name drops and shovels cute stories. In addition, while Vasari is a source, he was also a gossipmonger. I have few complaints about the article as it stands, while I agree that much in Caravaggio is unknown, undocumented, and if documented, often so by his enemies- I would have put the caveats at the end, and introduced with some lines why Caravaggio rocked the world. I wanted to lighten up on the homoerotic emphasis; clearly it is there, in the over-friendly ange in the Inspiration of Matthew I (the destroyed Berlin Canvas), as well as some others. I myself wonder what really he was thinking when he made such works as those in Cerasi and Contarelli. We will never know.

Finally for Caravaggio, I had basically abandoned the main article for fear of offending someone and concentrated on sub-articles on independent works such as the Contarelli and Cerasi canvases. Typically saying Calling of Saint Matthew (Caravaggio) and linking back to text of this main article.

Caravaggisti 06:19, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Feel free to move the caveats if you wish, and to do any other editing. Personally I'd like to see something added about Caravaggio's times - the influence of the Counter-Reformation and especially its strictures on art, and the lingering humanist tradition represented by Del Monte and other private collectors. If you want to lighten up on the hormoerticism go ahead - I think it has to be addressed, given that Amor has become a gay icon and Sacred&Profane a counter-gay one (I've seen it on an anti gay marriages website). But we in our age tend to give it far more emphasis than Caravaggio's contemporaries did (my opinion of course) - we just don't realise that in many ways the 17th century was an alien civilisation. I do want to emphasise the very real spiritual content of the religious works - I gave this a passing mention in this article, but I want to develop both aspects, the secular Caravaggio and the spiritual, in the linked articles on individual works.

Incidentally, what I've written here would of course raise the blood pressure of any true scholar of Caravaggio - Robb, my main source, is not exactly universally accepted in academic circles, and his certasinties are really hypotheses, some of them quite slenderly supported. PiCo 02:40, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Names of paintings

Given there are so many alternative names (in English at least) for Caravaggio's paintings, the best approach is probably to accept those used in the Chronology section. Anyway, I'm going to start going down that list adding individual articles. Unfortunately I already did one article called Boy Peeling Fruit, when the list gives Boy Peeling a Fruit - I'll try to fix it.

PiCo 02:45, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

On Caravaggio

I edited some comments on Bernini's Santa Teresa in Ecstasy which I think over-stressed the erotic content of the work. I could not envision a daily churgoing man like the Cavalieri attempting to introduce titillation by subterfuge. I agree that the mindset is difficult to comprehend. Few of us, in our ironic times, would have enough chuckle protection to steel ourselves to the mind-numbing graphic mental exercises of Santa Teresa or San Ignatius- but I assume these were daily meditation exercises for these devout artists. Unfortunately, for Caravaggio I sense that he lived a little bit less devoutly. Looking back at some of my contributions, I have failed to give them all the "(Caravaggio)" appendage. I tended to choose titles from Howard Hibbard's text.

I think Bernini's problem was that he had no more idea than you or I (ok, no more than I, I won't speak for you) of what religious ecstasy might look like. So he used the only ecstasy he knew, and... Caravaggio I see existing on a much more visceral, intuitive plane. Not that he wasn't intelligent - no-one who did those paintings was lacking in IQ points - but I don't think he even cared about the more abstruse teachings of the Church. He liked boys, and he painted them. He felt no guilt - guilt of that sort remained alien to the Italian soul well into the 1950s, and I've seen it lacking in some of my Catholic friends even now - but he did feel spirituality. And through his genius, he painted that too. PiCo 04:08, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

~~== Chronology ==

Should the chronology section be put into its own article? It seems long enough for it Cfitzart 08:14, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

You mean the Chronology of Major Works, towards the end? Sure - the article is 37kb at present, and Wiki reccomends (recommends, recomends, reccommends) about 20kb. Make it a separate article and slap some thumbs on it :) Atillios and I (and others?) are going through adding good in-depth articvles on all the individual paintings. PiCo 08:35, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Ok I started it off at Caravaggio, chronology of works, wasnt sure about the title but that can always be changed Cfitzart 09:50, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

I thought about maybe adding a paragraph on how the paintings often describe moments of existential importance, the calling of st mat. is the moemnt when he is called, the resurrection of lazarus is when new life hits him; this is a typically baroque theme, as opposed to classical artwordk and can be linked to bernini, and so on. Any objections/comments, anyone? Harol2 14:54, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Put it in the section "The Birth of the Baroque", and also summarised in the introduction. PiCo 22:03, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Paragraph added. All comments welcome. I would like to insert the resurrection of lazarus, but am having problems putting it in (is uploaded in the commons). Harol2 11:34, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

I've made some small edits to the style to help it read better - they're not really important. I'd suggest deleting the very first sentence as it isn't really (to my mind) necessary - the current 2nd sentence makes a good introduction to your theme here. What's your p[roblem with inserting the Resurrection of Lazarus?PiCo 12:11, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Sentence removed. I will look more in the sandbox tutorials for the picture. Harol2 13:08, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

though these following names are very delightful, they are not as appealing as the name "alicia" it is a xtremly peachy name and should be exposed to everyone out there.

Two new Caravaggios discovered

Interesting article here on the discovery of two previously unknown Caravaggios. PiCo 13:15, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Footnotes (adding citations)

I've marked all direct quotes from sources with footnotes - these are currently empty, as it will take some time to identify them all. I'll also add footnotes for other things in the text of the article, but direct quotes certainly need them. PiCo 11:07, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Let me know what I can do to help, though I don't have the books that are cited. >>sparkit|TALK<< 18:34, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I am getting some funny things with the footnotes. It seems that all notes after No30 are only repetition of earlier ones... Zefrog 11.43, 30 August 2006 (GMT)

Beheading of Holofernes

Would anyone like to comment on why the beheading of Holofernes by Judith looks so awkward, the way she holds the sword and all that? The left side of the picture has a completely different quality to the right side.--shtove 07:57, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I can only guess that as Caravaggio painted from live models, the girl found the sword rather heavy and rested it on a pillow or something, leading to this slightly unconvincing gripatherine Puglisis comments that Artemisia Gentileschi and other later artists painted the scene with more physical realism, but the thing they (scholars) do all agree on is that C. got the psychology right, especially Judith's expression, the old woman, and the writhing of H.'s body - I recall someone writing about the "language of the hands" in this painting, with special reference to H.'s hands. PiCo 21:18, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. There's a pretty good biopic film of Artemisia, in which the heroine makes reference to the clumsiness of the beheading. Judith's expression is fascinating.--shtove 23:28, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Caravaggio Rembrandt in Amsterdam until June

http://www.rembrandt-caravaggio.nl/index_en.htm check the link. very good for zooming the works. Palx 13:31, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

In Sicily

I thought there was a para on C's time in Sicily? If there was, it's gone now. Perhaps someone would like to add one. (I can't myself because I'm traveling and have no access to books). PiCo 01:54, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Date of birth (the 28th of September is wrong)

Caravaggio was most likely born of September 29th and not on the 28th. His exact birth date is not documented, but he was certainly called Michelangelo after St. Michael Archangel, whose festivity is on September 29th. About this, you can check Helen Langdon's biography Caravaggio: A life (ISBN: 071266582X). I quote from her book (my translation from the Italian version): "the date of the marriage [of Caravaggio's parents] indicates a period between the end of September and the beginning of October [for Caravaggio's birth]. The poignant conjecture that he was born on September 29th, the day of St. Michael Archangel, has been proposed by M. Calvesi, La realtà del Caravaggio (ISBN: 8806117106). This date is generally accepted today."

I made the correction, but you're welcome to do this yourself. PiCo 03:32, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Painting Order

I know little about art, so I didnt choose to change this, but I noticed in the sections about Caravaggios life, the section speaking about the period before 1600 has a picture painted in 1601. The section dealing after 1600 has a picture from 1593. Would it beneficial to switch these two? Cephyr 21:48, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Go ahead - I have no opinion one way or the other. PiCo 02:01, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Mediation still required?

This mediation request is still listed as open. Is further mediation still required or can I close this case? --Ideogram 07:48, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Closing. If it needs to be reopened, leave a note on my talkpage. --Ideogram 09:28, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

"Virtual Gallery of Fine Art" Link

i notice that this was deleted as linkspam. however, i don't see what about it is spam. it seems, to my admittedly cursory examination, to be exactly what it says: a virtual gallery, in this case of Merisi's paintings. the ip address doesn't match up with the person who placed it here, so it doesn't seem to have conflict of interest. it doesn't seem to be particularly advertising a site, so that can't be it. why is it being deleted? (though, i should add, when it is added, it should be put to the bottom of the list of links, rather than the top.) Whateley23 04:44, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Google tells me that there are 667,000 pages that match the search "Caravaggio gallery". A large percentage of those are actually galleries of Caravaggio's art. Most of them would like a link from Wikipedia. Since most of the major Caravaggio paintings have their own article in Wikipedia (see Category:Caravaggio paintings ) and the rest are easily found in Google, there's not much point in opening up the floodgates of links.

Also, see WP:NOT, especially WP:NOT#LINK. Studerby 06:29, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

i suppose that's fair enough, though i'm not entirely convinced that that policy applies. Whateley23 00:23, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Did Caravaggio really beat Shamus Vitilago to death in 1899 for his vaudervillian insults?

These accusations were made on [TV on the Radio]'s - Netti Fritti Con Volante, off their OK Calculator album. For anyone investigating, sanity resumes at exactly 2:01. I suppose frankly TVotR is a better place to ask. Given the account of Shamus Vitilago and his loose insults, I wouldnt be suprised if such a thing transpired, but I havent found any information on Caravaggio's alleged inciter anywhere, nor any account of a slaying in 1899. If you listen the the song, it explains why no charges were pressed, and is very very funny. --Rektide 01:18, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

since he lived in the late 16th century, i doubt that he would have killed anyone at the end of the 19th. Whateley23 03:00, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Good Article status

After taking a look at the article, as well as its failed FA candidacy, I think that the same issues raised in the FA review might bar the article from GA status. The main issue with the article is an almost complete lack of in-line citations. The article was promoted to GA status about a year and a half ago, but the GA criteria have changed dramatically since then (in fact I think there were no criteria at all in Jan 2006). I wanted to bring this up here to give editors and contributors a chance to work on the article and hopefully improve it based on the GA criteria. Otherwise, I'll nominate the article for GA review soon. Drewcifer3000 05:27, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

The GA criteria have since been adjusted to be a little bit more forgiving about in-line citations, so I'm happy to say this article passes as a GA after all. Drewcifer 06:38, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Pedophile?

I read at another website that Caravaggio was a pedophile. If this is true (somebody help me), then i suggest we include this in the article. The site was a sort of Norwegian wikipedia ripp-off made for high-school art students, and should not be taken too seriously. I tried to research for this a little time on the web, but could not find any other sources (though i got bored from looking pretty fast). Maybe a smart art guy could say her or his opinion? (url for the Norwegian site: http://wiki.forus.vgs.no/index.php/Barokken)

Pedophile would not appear to have been the term in use during Caravaggio's lifetime, its use here would therefore be anachronistic. Philip Cross (talk) 14:33, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

It is usual political poppycock.Galassi (talk) 15:02, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Imitating Giorgione

I requested a citation for this claim as it seems unlikely. Certainly their is an influence of the Venetian Masters of the early sixteenth century in the early work, but these paintings do not have the ambiguity and static quality associated with the authenticated work of Giorgione. Philip Cross (talk) 14:24, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

There's a footnote citing Anne Sutherland Harris, with a page number, but I don't have the book so can't check. You might like to follow up. PiCo (talk) 07:33, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Footnote re: homoerotic content

The footnote regarding possible sexual content in Caravaggio's paintings has been reverted several times recently by different editors. This contributor has no agenda re: the content itself, but finds the matter relevant, balanced, and well sourced. Presence of the word 'possibly' does not invalidate its inclusion, but merely acknowledges the differences in scholarly interpretation. There is some history regarding the matter, as can be seen in the above discussion going back several years. I suspect that the current text was arrived at after some debate, and suggest that it not be reverted lightly, or without further discussion. If this remains an item of contention, the thoughts of other contributors and administrators would be welcome. JNW (talk) 15:47, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I support JNW's view. The information is well balanced, which is what policy recommends when sources disagree. I find "the gay biographers and commentators" a rather dodgy way of putting it, though. We shouldn't assume that just because a scholar is gay that he or she will take homosexuality for granted in a subject. qp10qp (talk) 16:11, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

In complete harmony re: the gay reference. It is gratuitous, and I was going to add as much here, but figured I'd said enough for the moment. JNW (talk) 16:18, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I've made the wording more neutral, then. qp10qp (talk) 16:28, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

An improvement. Thanks, JNW (talk) 16:43, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi guys. I deleted the section on Caravaggio's sex life because it's undue emphasis - the word pentimenti doesn't get a single mention (though it should), yet we have a whole section on this? On the other hand, I've reinserted two sentences and a long footnote which actually relate the sexual content of his early paintings (if it exists - it's actually a matter of personal perception, like an ink blot - you'll see what you wish to see). PiCo (talk) 07:12, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I do not agree this is an acceptable approach to take. The article is about Caravaggio the man and so it is entirely relevant to have details of his personal relationships. This article is not restricted just to the art of Caravaggio. The text included is properly sourced and balanced and there is no reason for its removal. Can I remind contributors that this is a shared article - open to all to contribute provided that arguments are made robustly. Incidentally, no-one is preventing you from adding some lines on pentimenti should you so chose. Contaldo80 (talk) 08:42, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Taking your points one by one:

• The article is about Caravaggio the man It's not, it's about Caravaggio the artist. If Caravaggio were just a man, we wouldn't be writing about him here. Discussion of his homosexuality (and I have no doubt that he was homosexual) should be confined to the connection between that and his art - hence the sentence earlier in the article about the discussion between critics over the homoerotic content of some of the early paintings, and the quote from Robert Hughes, which I like because of the stylish way he expresses that homoerotic ambience.
• Details of his personal relationships. You don't actually have any details of his personal relationships in this section. All you have is a discussion whether the artist was or was not queer. As I've said above, I'm personally convinced he was, but opinions differ, and does it matter? (If you wanted to have a discussion of his personal relationships, you'd have to go into much greater details about Minniti, Cecco, Lena, Longhi, Del Monte, and God knows who else. You don't though, because you're not really interested in his personal relationships, just in carrying out a vendetta against gays).
• This article is not restricted to the art of Caravaggio. No, it's not - but anything else should be related to that art. He's an artist, that's why we have an article on him. But as I say, your agenda is simply to attack gays, not to write about Caravaggio.
• The text included is properly sourced and balanced. Yes to the first, no to the second. I've already explained why - we are not here to further your anti-gay agenda in the guise of an article about Caravaggio. Merely being properly sourced is not nearly enough.

PiCo (talk) 09:04, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Is somebody promoting a cause here ? I want the article to deal with Caravaggio the artist. What's all this gay stuff about ? its irrelevant. please get rid of it PalX 10:31, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

In fact, this is clearly a case of Undue Weight. This section should be returned to footnotes.Galassi (talk) 12:52, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

When trying to weigh this with some objectivity, the rhetorical question I ask is whether so much space is generally devoted to suppositions and anecdotes about heterosexual behavior. If not, this would seem to be more appropriate for footnoting. JNW (talk) 14:24, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

PiCo - I don't get why you think I'm pursuing an anti-gay vendetta? This is very muddled thinking indeed. Nor is the article about Caravaggio the artist - otherwise it would have been called the 'art of Caravaggio'. If you want it to be simply about the art then I suggest you rename it; otherwise it's clearly a biographical article. You can't have your cake and eat it however - the article currently contains information on the paintings but includes specifically biographical information (such as personal behaviour in Rome, murder, fleeing into exile, award of knighhood etc). You would have to expunge all of that to keep to an article purely on art. If you want to improve the text by all means include more detail on Minitti, del Monte etc (or change the heading from personal relationships) but I find it disingenuous to remove it all. Some individuals will clearly feel the issue of sexuality is not relevant to the article; however, others will feel it is relevant. So we're not going to get anywhere by both camps saying I am/ am not interested. If someone wants to include details of Caravaggio's sexuality then they are permitted to under the rules of wikipedia provided that the textual addition makes sense. I'm happy to argue on the merits of phrasing/ supporting evidence; but I do not feel I need to justify inclusion of the topic. If it's dealt with by mainstream art-critics, historians and academics then it is worthy of inclusion in this article - and not to be hidden away in a footnote. Contaldo80 (talk) 14:40, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

The current version seems ok; contrary to one edit summary, C is not just a famous artist, but in recent years has become a famous gay too, in fact a gay icon, which should be linked, along with the Jarman film. No more "gay biographers" or "gay researchers" please! Unfortunately, we don't seem to have any articles on Renaissance "bravo" culture to give context on the knife-fights. Johnbod (talk) 16:37, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

This conversation is getting quite complex and I find myself responding to several peoiple at once. To Contaldo80, who thinks it's bizarre of me to accuse him of pursuing a homophobic agenda: you've titled the section "Questions of personal character" - not questions of sexuality, but of character - and then quite explicitly drawn a link between (a) Caravaggio's violence and his homosexuality, and (b) called him a pedophile (you've got Susinno wrong, he didn't mention Caravaggio sketching young men, only boys). If you're not asking the reader to draw the conclusion that homosexuals are unstable, violent pedophiles, then what re you doing? For Johnbod: yes, Caravaggio is a gay icon, you see his boys on the covers of books and magazines all the time. I think the existing mention about halfway down the section "Rome 1592-1600" covers this (especially in the footnote), but I'd have no objection to it being treated at more length in the "Modern Tradition" section - provided it were far better done than this tendentious and sub-literate section we're currently discussing. For everyone else: I explained my overall, position above, but will do so again: Caravaggio's sexuality should only be mentioned in so far as it relates to his art. Similarly, in the article on Picasso, which I haven't looked at, it would be legitmate and even necessary to talk about the women in his life as they appear in and influence his art, but it woud not be legitimate to call him a philanderer and secret misogynist, even though he was. PiCo (talk)

PiCo - you really can't be more wrong in claiming I'm pursuing a homophobic agenda. Indeed such a suggestion really does run contrary to my intention. I didn't title the section 'questions of personal character' - I called it 'personal characteristics'. Someone else changed it.

Nor have I drawn a link between his violence and homosexuality - I simply quoted Roettger whose work was seminal in exploring the sexuality of Caravaggio. To be frank I think it's likely that being homosexual (if indeed Caravaggio was homosexual) in Baroque Rome would place an unpleasant amount of pressure on any individual - noting that this was a highly repressive age, and those discovered to engage in homosexual practice would have been quickly sent to the stake (therefore I find it odd that some contributors expect to be given 'tangible' evidence of his sexuality).

The accusations made in Messina are significant because they partly explain Caravaggio's need to quickly flee to Palermo (thus hurrying his demise). I haven't made the claim that he was a paedophile - I don't think such a claim needs to be made, and indeed the description of 'boys' in Sussino's account should not lead us to assume they were necessarily pre-pubescent.

The issue of sexuality is important therefore because (i) it is a significant prism through which to understand the art of Caravaggio (and anyone who has seen the painting of st john will understand what I mean) (ii) his sexuality seems to have played a part in securing his early commissions (or at least his ability to connect to a homosexual sub-culture amongst patrons) (iii) he continues to exercise interest as a 'gay icon'. Indeed most catalogues nowadays where his work is exhibited in big shows will touch upon the issue. The impact is felt in poetry from Thom Gunn's 'Santa maria del Popolo' to Derek Jarman's biopic. It would be disappointing to relegate a fascinating issue to the dark recesses of footnotes. Finally this article is not about caravaggio's art - it is about the man - as there are separate articles on each of his paintings to be found on wikipedia. Contaldo80 (talk) 16:57, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Response to Contaldo80:

• "Sexuality...it is a significant prism through which to understand the art of Caravaggio..." Then relate it to the art.
• "anyone who has seen the painting of st john will understand what I mean." See above - if you want to understand the Baptist paintings (and the David paintings) in terms of suppressed homoeroticism, do it through references to art historians - and have you looked at the Wiki article on the paintings?
• "his sexuality seems to have played a part in securing his early commissions" Frankly I doubt it - he secured Del Monte's patronage because he was good and he was innovative, and while Del Monte may have been gay, Giustiniani certainly was not - yet he was the patron who commissioned Amor. There's far more at work than erotic preferences.
• "I haven't made the claim that he was a paedophile - I don't think such a claim needs to be made, and indeed the description of 'boys' in Sussino's account should not lead us to assume they were necessarily pre-pubescent." Of course they were boys - Sussino said so, and they had a teacher with them. Plus all, repeat all, of Caravaggio's eroticised paintings are of pubescent and adolescent boys, never young men.
• "this article is not about caravaggio's art - it is about the man - as there are separate articles on each of his paintings to be found on wikipedia." Of course there are articles on each of his paintings - I wrote most of them.

Finally, on overt homoeroticism in Caravaggio's painting, the following is an analysis of the most homoerotic of all of them, the Boy Bitten by a Lizard:

• Flower behind ear, bared shoulder: symbols identifying prostitutes
• Lizard: pun for "penis"
• Middle finger (the finger the lizard is biting): Used to insert into the rectum of the boy to ascertain whether the outer sphincter (the voluntary sphincter) is sufficiently dilated to allow the insertion of the male member. (A boy's sphincter is smaller than an adult's and the usual test was, and still is, whether at least two fingers can be inserted - only one finger is being noted in the painting, which may relate simply to the fact that a lizard can only bite one finger at a time, but might be related to the boy's professional status).

The boy looks about 15 to me. Would Caravaggio go to all this trouble, and make such a public display of his meaning, if he didn't prefer boys to men? PiCo (talk) 03:12, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Questions of personal character

Am I alone in thinking this whole section is riddled with weasel words and completely out of context with what is expected within Wikipedia. there are rules on this type of stuff. I have seen this type of prose before in Wikipedia especially with articles on religion where interested parties use the encyclopaedia in an effort to promote their belief. My own view is take the whole thing out. PalX 16:00, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree - get rid of this section. (But I like Johnbod's idea of a paragrpah about Caravaggio's modern status as a gay icon - it would be relevant). PiCo (talk) 03:14, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Ok - fair enough. I've cut out some of the more controversial aspects of the para and have teased out the gay icon issue. And moved the whole section to the modern perspectives section. Hope this looks better and addresses peoples' concerns. Contaldo80 (talk) 17:13, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Why all this talk about pedophile and sex. is that the main interest of the article and why the guy was famous? Why do so many people focus on that instead of what he is famous for??Bolinda (talk) 05:31, 20 September 2008 (UTC)