Talk:Fall of man

Read Bible?

Has anyone actually read the Bible, Genisis 1:26 states "Then God said, let US make man in OUR image, in OUR likeness"

Then Genesis 3:21 states "The man has now become like one of US, knowing good and evil"

I believe people take what they can, and never read it!

Queen Elizabeth I said, "We princes are set as it were upon stages in the sight and view of the world." Ergo, Queen Elizabeth I was a prince. Q.E.D. --Eliyak T·C 03:00, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Correction, she was two or more princes 190.225.211.174 (talk) 04:42, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

The {} sign/s

One or more of the sign/s: {{NPOV}}{{expansion}}{{Cleanup}} placed on this page without any discussion, explanation or reasoning have been removed pending further discussion. (The category Category:Bible stories is now up for a vote for deletion at Wikipedia:Categories for deletion#Category:Bible stories) Thank you. IZAK 11:16, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I've added the second interpretation of 'felix culpa' to show that the story of Adam and Eve could be interpreted in an entirely different way: Nagig

title.

i'd like to change the title of this article to The fall of Man. thoughts? Ungtss 21:10, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

title change

I agree, it's more specific and the term is commonly used.

cool -- i'll do it. Ungtss 14:56, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

How about someone add that not every religion nor christain believe the fall of man was a tragic story about the doomed humanity. Many believe that the story is more of an uplifting, Rise of Man and Woman. There is no specific sign that the talking snake in the garden of eden is the devil. And the god of the old testement is severely more vengeful than the new testement one. The snake gave Woman, Woman gave to Man the gifts of knowledge (just as children are born..) When god learns, emphasis on the fact that god did not know where adam and eve were hiding rather, he needed to seek them out. When god learns of adam and eve's knowledge, and their awareness of nudity and embarrasement, he knew they had taken from the tree of knowledge. This all means that god is not, all-knowing. Man and Woman were given the gift of morals, (dharma) to know the good and the bad - for our will is what makes us different that just an animal. In his rage he banned the two and all offspring of every setting foot back into eden. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thomas-eros (talk • contribs)

Near-death experiences

I removed the following because I can't see how it is related to The Fall in any sensible way, or how the statements made relate to near-death experiences:

Many near-death experiences deal with the meaning of the life and existence before coming to earth, and several of them also deal with the meaning of The Fall. The Fall is seen as a symbolic descent from connectedness of God and eternal Love to Earth, to experience life in material world and to experience suffering, injustice, separatedness and death, for purpose. The existence on Earth and life in matter enables us to grow and to develop as souls before returning back to unity with God. Almost all near-death experiences which involve on knowledge of the Fall imply we are here on Earth as volunteers, and voluntarily chose the sinful state to apply free will to find our way back to Heavenly Home. This is very much parallel with the previous felix culpa argumentation.

DJ Clayworth 16:18, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Gender-neutral

While I agree that the language of the article needed some cleaning-up, there is no reason to avoid the masculine pronoun for God, which is almost universal in Christianity except among a small minority. (It is equally acknowledged that God is neither male nor female except as incarnate in Jesus; the pronoun is merely conventional.) Removing all personal pronouns makes for needless awkwardness. There was certainly no call for moving the article without discussion. TCC (talk) (contribs) 20:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Awkwardness fixed: We now have the actual biblical text!Emerymat 20:28, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

That's nice in theory, but we can't use "by permission" text in Wikipedia. Biblical quotes are ordinarily Fair Use, but they're not normally so lengthy -- this includes the entirety of Genesis 3. In general we should not include source text in Wikiepdia anyway. See WP:NPS. TCC (talk) (contribs) 20:41, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

To top it all, someone had quite misleadingly headed the Genesis account subsection with ...(King James Version), which it isn't. I have therefore removed this from the heading. DFH 19:27, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Of course, if the extended quote from Genesis was replaced by the same passage from the KJV, the "by permission" issue would be solved when the citation note is removed or replaced. DFH 19:31, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Symbolism

Shouldn't the article be more clear that most mainstream Christian churches interpret the Fall of Man symbolically, as with the rest of Genesis? JF Mephisto 20:25, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I'd say that "symbolic" is the wrong term. Typologically, perhaps. TCC (talk) (contribs) 21:52, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I placed the original laymans note in here, I see that it at least created some interest, but one thing is for sure , nobody can deny the truth it was meant to portrait, some of us don't have a university education, but we certainly do have knowledge some of it inexplainable.

I could have cut and paste the section in there. However, if I had done that, people would have misread that too, most of us were taught according to the bible, that there is just one GOD, however even the name is simply manmade, it is just our name for the entity that is one whole, including us.

Everything else gets lost in translation.

I would like to say that many people I have met and debated with some of whom have doctorates
in theology or biblical studies belive it to be a literal and factual recounting of an actual
event and I believe it to be misleading to claim that most mainstream Christian churches
interperate it symbolically because just as many take it to be factual and there is no
indication that it is not factual.
Matthew D. McCann (Senior High Bible study leader @ Stoneridge EC Church)

Re: Symbolism

How has the scientific theory of evolution affected the theology of the fall and of redemption in those Christian bodies that accept it? I grew up believing, based on my understanding of the New Testament, that death entered the world through the sin of Adam, and that the consummation of our redemption in Christ included the restoration of all things (a new heaven and new earth in which there would be no more death) when the Lord comes again. The theory of evolution, through the mechanism of natural selection, necessitates the view that, rather than Paul's "by man came death," the truth is that "by death [natural selection] came man." I don't mean to indulge in a debate about the merits of modern science (frankly, I'm not smart enough), but I'd like to know how Christian bodies that otherwise seem to hold to orthodox teaching can accept the theory of evolution without having to make a radical change in their understanding of what salvation means. Bro. Neal (talk) 03:05, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Orthodox Church

The Orthodox church clearly rejects the idea that each person is born with the guilt of "Adam's Fall." The church teaches that guilt of a father cannot be passed down, basing its interpretation on Old Testament passages to the same.

In the Epistle to the Romans it says that the gentile and the Jew who do not know Christ can still do good and act according to their conscience. Furthermore, while the world is corrupted by evil, according to the Orthodox church, God exists everywhere, even in Hell, since he is "omnipresent."

This should be included in the text.

Section headed "A Warning ?"

The section headed A Warning ? looks very POV to me. I propose to remove it, also on the grounds that it cites no supporting references. DFH 20:03, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Section headings?

The article has two sections with almost identical headings, Interpretation and Interpretations. This is a little confusing. Can anyone suggest a better title for the first one? DFH 19:19, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Recent additions

• Is it neccessary to have a copy of the NSRV on the page?

See this

• Also, additions like: Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Like this, many more have been added. Should they really be included?

xCentaur |  talk  11:29, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Move

Move to The Fall or The Fall of Humanity? Or the like?70.74.35.252 03:08, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Serpent and wording

The word decieved implies that Eve was made to believe that God had not forbidden them to eat from the tree or that the serpent (Satan) lied while the serpent left out certain facts he was not lying also she knew she must not eat from the tree what would be more correct is to say that She was tempted by the serpent and fell to the temptation —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.77.29.135 (talk) 20:32, 30 April 2007 (UTC).

Serpent not the devil

I've heard from a few various sources that the serpent is not Satan as the Jews at the time Genesis was written did not have a dualist view. Can anyone verify this? 66.87.166.247 (talk) 04:47, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

You have heard correctly: the Bible does not say that the serpent was Satan. 'The Satan' is still a feature of Jewish spirituality and is mentioned in the Bible but in relation to other activities (eg Job). As to how dualist Judaism was at the time Genisis was written - I think that is beyond the scope of this article. This discussion page is meant to be for discussion about improving the article - not a general discussion board about Judaism. --Just nigel (talk) 11:06, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Metaphor?

Read tghe text. Its obviously a metaphor, why isn't that point of view reflected too? even religious people share it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.10.249.9 (talk • contribs) 01:25, 4 July 2007.

Another church rejecting The Fall

There is another mainline Protestant church that rejects The Fall as changing human nature. I came here to remember the name, but they're not included. I seem to think it was the Church of Christ. Kudos to whomever can find out and include it in the article. --Ephilei 08:21, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Judaism & Islam section

Judaism, for one, gives great meaning to the idea of the "fall" – it is just not as central to the religion as in Christianity. The section needs serious updating. I don't feel up to it right now, but I wanted to point that out. --Eliyak T·C 03:03, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Yea, why is this article pretty much all about Christianity? The introduction section itself points out that other religions have similar concepts. These should be explored for neutrality. Tomalak Geret'kal (talk) 23:41, 5 July 2008 (UTC)