User talk:Vassyana

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Word of the day
Treeware. noun. /'triwɛər/.
An antediluvian method of publishing information on a portable medium created from processed arboreal macerate, often with decorative covers glossed by petrochemical solids.

"Reginald went to the athenaeum to peruse treeware with the assistance of an informatics professional."

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Help me out.

• Contribute some thoughts and feedback to m:Dispute resolution analysis group.

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• Talk Page archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12

feedback requested at Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia Committees

Hi, if you have time, I'd appreciate any feedback on a slightly crazy idea I had at Wikipedia:Wikipedia Committees. It's related to the Arbitration Committee. Thanks! rootology (C)(T) 18:32, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Might you give some direction?

You recently suggested that the editors over at the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution seek dispute resolution, but I'm not sure which avenue is appropriate. It seems we have both perpetual content disputes and possible problems with a disruptive and hostile editor. Should we seek mediation, request comments, or something else? Any direction you might give would be greatly appreciated. The current "situation" can be found here. Thank you. --tc2011 (talk) 20:13, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

For the content side of things, informal or formal mediation may be able to help resolve some of the broder content issues. Requests for comment can be used to draw some outside voices for specific issues. It may also be helpful to leave a message at a couple of WikiProjects neutrally and civilly asking for a few outside voices. For the behavioral side of things, if someone is engaging in personal attacks or otherwise acting in a rude fashion, WP:WQA may be of some help. If someone is engaging in edit-warring and reverting, 3RR enforcement and page protection may help. If there's a broader pattern of misbehavior, talk page disruption, etc a user conduct RfC and the incidents noticeboard would be appropriate venues to draw broader comment and action from the community. In general, you should try to keep content and behavioral issues distinct. When dealing with content, focus on the content and avoid commenting about the contributors. When dealing with behavioral issues, focus on the behavior and avoid commenting about content. Obviously, there is some overlap. For example, someone misusing sources would make it all but impossible to discuss content without conduct coming up and vice versa. Regardless, you should try your best to leave them apart. If you have any other questions, please do not hesitate to let me know. Be well!! Vassyana (talk) 14:47, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

RfArb clarification WP:PSEUDOSCIENCE

Hi Vassyana -- at this request, I noticed your suggestion to try WP:DR. Here's the thing: we have, big-time. Four RfC's just this year, plus all kinds of noticeboard requests, etc. etc.: these are always a split decisions, and the only way change happens is when one group of editors is strong willed-enough to prevail at low-level edit-warring. That's a nadir I'd hoped ArbCom could change. We really are at the end of WP:DR, not the beginning.

Basically, we've got one group of editors WP:IAR-ing the relevant part of NPOV, WP:PSCI, and just wanting to characterize as pseudoscience pretty much anything that a source has criticized. And we have another group saying that we should stick to WP:PSCI and not through the pseudo label around too casually. All you guys need to do here is either say, yes, WP:PSCI applies to that list too; or, no, it doesn't. Either way, please do something. It's precisely because I have read WP:DR that I took this to Arb as a last resort. I won't be offended if you still decline (just as I trust this note won't offend you), but I just wanted to make the best case I could for you guys to look at it. all best, Backin72 (n.b.) 06:07, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

I'll put a brief additional comment at the request to clarify these points. No offense taken at all. My talk page is always open to feedback, concerns, questions, or so forth. Be well! Vassyana (talk) 18:02, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Noah's Ark

Vassyanna, have you given up in trying to mediate on the Noah's Ark article or do you intend to return? Martin Hogbin (talk) 10:29, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

I requested that another volunteer pick up my cases, as settling into ArbCom has required more of my time, energy and attention than I had fully expected. I've modified the MedCab request page to indicate the need for another volunteer. Once I am a bit more settled in, I'll stop by to see how things are going. Still, over the long-term if you need a bit of informal mediation assistance in the broader topic area, please feel free to leave a message for me. I intend to continue working on Wikipedia in that fashion, but time/energy contraints prevent me from doing so at the current time. Apologies for any confusion and delay. Be well! Vassyana (talk) 18:02, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Regarding your comment at RFAR

This is how it goes with arbitration (as a non-arb who's been around for a lot of cases). Try to get settled and make proactive steps to improve how arbitration works, and then a high drama case appears out of nowhere. My candid evaluation here was that this would wind up at the Committee's door soon enough, and by bringing it there swiftly a minimum of side issues intervened. Those tend to multiply if such things draw out. So, sadly, here's the New Year's baby. I admire all the incoming arbitrators for taking on the role and wonder why you wanted it. As Raul654 once wrote, it's the most thankless job at Wikipedia. Best wishes, Durova^Charge! 23:11, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

The comment was spurred in large part because there's been quite a few comments (in multiple venues) about how ArbCom needs to resolves some issues yesterday, including in relation to the current request. I do understand that people aren't psychic and can't know what we're discussing privately or looking to work on. One of the changes we're working on include sharing our agenda list (minus private/confidential information), so that people may be aware that some issues are being examined. Regardless, I understand what you're saying. As for why we'd want to do it, you can just assume insanity. :) Vassyana (talk) 23:34, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

request for suggestions

here when you have some time (concerns a proposal to Verifiability policy) Thanks,Slrubenstein | Talk 17:03, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Independent sourcing for Elements of Fiction

I wonder if you would consider giving a little time to the question of what makes an element of fiction (e.g. a ficitonal character or television episode) notable? You may recall our disucussion regarding the Notability RfC back in September 2008, at which time you put forward the proposal B.6 which proposed that SNG criteria support reasonable presumptions of notability.

Discussions at WT:FICT have become deadlocked over just this issue. The current draft of WP:FICT]] (more or less) suggest that an element of fiction can be presumed to be notable if it is the subject of substantial real-world coverage from reliable sources. Some editors, not unreasonabley, are arguing that the sources in question not only should be reliable, but indepenedent also. Could you have a look at Independent sources and make your views known? --Gavin Collins (talk) 11:22, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Pope John Paul II

Hello Vassyana, We are looking for help on the Pope John Paul II article in order to improve it and raise it to ‘Good Article’ and eventually ‘Featured Article’ status. So, I though I would invite you to take a look. Any help would be much appreciated. Kind Regards Marek.69 ^talk 03:02, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

RfA thankspam

		Thank you for your participation in my recent RfA, which failed with 90/38/3; whether you supported, opposed or remained neutral. Special thanks go out to Moreschi, Dougweller and Frank for nominating me, and I will try to take everyone's comments on board. Thanks again for your participation. I am currently concentrating my efforts on the Wikification WikiProject. It's fun! Please visit the project and wikify a few articles to help clear the backlog. If you can recruit some more participants, then even better. Apologies if you don't like RfA thankspam, this message was delivered by a bot which can't tell whether you want it or not. Feel free to remove it. Itsmejudith (talk), 22:55, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Denbot (talk) 22:55, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi

Hi Vassyana! Are you aware that Arbitor Cool Hand Luke has now completed his independent review of the evidence here. It basically shows that my contributions have been based on proper sourcing and are not even "undue weight", contrary to what has been said. Isn't it then highly unfair to ask for continued restrictions? It would be a shame if the Arbcom followed (and encouraged) the lingering enimities and unwarranted accusations of a few critics, rather than pass a fair judgement about my work. I strongly appeal to your sense of justice in this matter. Best regards PHG (talk) 07:02, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Hello! Thank you for the polite message. It is my impression after reviewing all of the evidence that you are certainly improving, have good intentions and produce some great work. I believe the proposed decision notes all of this. Your good work is explicitly recognized and you're encouraged to keep contributing. A focused article ban is set to replace the broader article ban. There is a proposed measure that would allow your mentor to lift the (narrower) topic ban on an article-by-article basis. If anything specific troubles you about the proposed decision, I recommend leaving a message on the proposed decision talk page where all the arbitrators will be sure to see it and have a chance to respond. If you have any further questions or concerns, feel free to leave me a message. Be well! Vassyana (talk) 17:58, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Buddhism and Taoism Face to Face

Do you have the book? Half of the book is about it. You can read the preface for an overview. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ptr123 (talk • contribs) 19:18, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

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On the current Pseudo-science clarification motions

Also posted to User talk:Newyorkbrad

Elonka expressed concerns about a possible unintended consequence of the first motion. Without noticing that comment by her (until NYBrad's abstention drew my attention to it) I had also made a comment about the first motion. I think that the wording of the first motion if properly interpreted will avoid the potential consequence she highlights. My suggestion as to how to interpret it is already on WP:RFAR, but could do with an Arbitrator making it clear that this is the correct interepretation.

Having recently dug through data on how reports at WP:AE are actually disposed of, warnings and blocks are the two most frequent dispositions, with each being used roughly equally. And the various discretionary sanctions are written so as to require editor specific warnings prior to more serious sanctions. So it just does not make sense for anyone to believe that warnings can be reversed unilaterally but more serious sanctions can't be. Thus I concluded that the clause "that are not specific actions applied to specific editors" limits and restricts all of the items in the list, because to interpret the clarification to say that warnings can be overturned would be ludicrous given the requirement for warnings before anything else is done. GRBerry 03:50, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I believe you have the correct interpretation. If people are willing to split hairs or willing to violate normal community norms because they disagree, no amount of clarification from ArbCom is going to help resolve the conflict. As such, I made an purposefully broad comment that still applies to the specific concerns raised.[1] If I can further clarify my own view of the matter or otherwise assist, please do not hesitate to let me know. For that matter, please always feel welcome to raise any concerns or questions you might have about arbitration matters or my actions as an individual. I try to be open and responsive, as much as possible. Vassyana (talk) 06:52, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I think that covers it, and as the original author you are in the best position to clarify what the meaning was. Thanks. GRBerry 14:52, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm glad that my comment was sufficient to clarify the matter. Again, if you ever have any concerns or question, do not hesitate to drop me a line. Be well! Vassyana (talk) 15:57, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Justice please

Hi Vassyana. Justice please! Cheers PHG (talk) 20:20, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi

I think I am leaving. Cheers PHG (talk) 13:57, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

ArbCom Stuff

Thanks, I'll be posting more diffs as I find time. TallNapoleon (talk) 07:38, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Hoping you can help

Could you do me the giant favor of looking here to see whether you'd be able to answer? Thank you, arimareiji (talk) 17:40, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

I provided a response. Let me know if I can help clarify things a bit more. Be well! Vassyana (talk) 23:20, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Thank you very much for the help. ^_^ Your clarification was invaluable. arimareiji (talk) 23:40, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Quick question on Rand

interesting to see the process of material being moved from evidence to talk. One question arising. One of the central issues which has been shown on this page is the question of negative evidence. It is manifest here in the debate about is she or is she not a philosopher. Now speaking personal the specific example is not the important thing, but what is interesting is the question of weight. If she is not mentioned somewhere where she should be mentioned is that something that needs to be taken into account, or is one reputable source enough. That aside there are general issues on quality of evidence here, but the "proving a negative" has wider implications than this article.

Is this something that Arbcom will consider, or does its removal to talk indicate that it will not? --Snowded TALK 16:07, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Generally, ArbCom does not decide content issues. However, some content issues may be considered in the context of behavior. Good examples would be edit warring, soapboxing, and other disruptive editing. In general, the kind of question you raise is not generally appropriate for ArbCom to consider. This sort of policy consideration is more appropriately raised for discussion at the village pump, no original research talk page, NOR noticeboard, NPOV talk page, and/or NPOV noticeboard. Vassyana (talk) 16:41, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the quick reply. I understand that content issues are not the agenda - that will have to be sorted out by the editors. However the issue of proving a negative is stalling progress on content and has come up elsewhere (pseudo-science in general, intelligent design etc.) There are no clear guidelines that the moment. I would hope at least some aspect would be considered by Arbcom. Having made that point, I will leave it with you. --Snowded TALK 16:52, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

The best way to resolve the issue would be at the policy level. Any change or addition of this nature needs to come from the community. Vassyana (talk) 04:39, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Another question: SteveWolfer seems to be upset that I have a long evidence page when others do not. He has complained about it on the evidence talk page. In fact, although my evidence is longer than other editors, I do include diffs for all the points I make, and his and other editors' evidence is also over the 1000 word limit which he refers to (I've mentioned this in my response on the talk page.) I have moved an entire section to the talk page in response to his complaint, but I am worried that it will be ignored as I think it does demonstrate significant inconsistencies on his and other editors' parts. Should I have left it on the main evidence page or not? I do not want ArbCom to ignore it, and I can't see what else I can move.  DDStretch  (talk) 00:13, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

I posted a note to the evidence talk page. Your contribution will not be ignored. Material posted to the talk pages is still noted and taken into consideration by the arbitrators. If you have any further questions or concerns, please let me know. Vassyana (talk) 04:39, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. I have an extremely poor quality Internet connection at the moment because of bad weather in my area and an untraceable intermittent line fault. However, after many line-drips, I believe I have trimmed by contributions down to 1000 words, though it may be a bit terse at times.  DDStretch  (talk) 13:07, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Proposed EL for "Josephus on Jesus"

Vassyana,

I am new to Wikipedia. I am the author of an unpublished manuscript concerning the historicity of the resurrection of Christ. The manuscript has been subjected to elements of academic peer review, and is being 'showcased' online as part of the effort to obtain a publisher.

I have proposed the inclusion of the following article from this website (actually Appendix I from the manuscript) as an EL under the topic "Josephus on Jesus":

http://www.mortalresurrection.com/2009/02/09/the-testimony-of-joseph-ben-mathias/

The article is well researched and the arguments are both logical and valid. Since the article bears on the authenticity of the Testimonium Flavianum, it necessarily takes a position, or POV. Most of the other EL's under this topic also take positions, varying from 'complete forgery' to 'mostly authentic'. Mine is the only argument which questions the criteria upon which the Testimonium has been rejected by many; in other words, it defends the minority position that insufficient cause exists to reject the received text of the Testimonium.

As you can see [2], Carl Bunderson [3] approves the addition. But Doug Weller [4] believes that the article is inappropriate for Wikipedia. I have discussed this matter privately with Doug, and do not think we are likely to agree. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Dougweller#Testimonium_Flavianum_-_Additional_EL

I am very reluctant to add the material without some sort of clear consensus. Frankly the article brings up points and provides contemporaneous sources that are not included under the Wikipedia topic or the EL's, and it promotes nothing except a more complete consideration of the evidence.

Could I impose upon you to look at the article, and if you believe that it adds merit to Wikipedia, to demonstrate the appropriate method to reconcile the current impasse?

Thanking you in advance for your consideration,

Mortalresurrection (talk) 16:39, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Our guidelines includes a list of links to avoid, which includes blogs not written by recognized authorities. While your link is interesting, it does run afoul of our linking standards. If other external links in the article are below standards, please feel free to remove those links that are below par. Wikipedia is principally focused on providing a recounting of the information contained in reliable sources. Our main policies about this are "verifiability", "no original research" and "neutral point of view". There is also an external links guideline for web site links.)

On another thought, there are Wikimedia Foundation projects that fit in with your outside work. Wikibooks and Wikiversity are sister projects both welcome unpublished original research. I hope you stick around Wikipedia to help us out, but it seems appropriate to mention projects that could benefit from your obvious interest. If I can be of further assistance, or answer any other questions, please always feel free to contact me. Vassyana (talk) 18:39, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Vassyana,

Thank you for your prompt assistance, and for resolving the 'impasse' (although not as I had hoped!)

I will probably not be the one to delete the other links which fall outside of Wikipedia standards, as I could not defend against allegations of 'conflict of interest'.

Will the status of these written materials change after publication? I certainly desire for these articles to be available to those seeking an understanding.

Best Wishes,

Mortalresurrection (talk) 19:54, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

A conflict on interest on Wikipedia simply encourages you to act with caution (see WP:COI). If you are acting in accord with consensus, or otherwise acting well within the community norms, you should not have a problem. For example, removing dead links is entirely uncontroversial. On to the tricky part! People will sometimes talk about "pointy" actions (or something similar). They are referring to WP:POINT. Mass removing links are having a link denied could be seen as a POINTed action. However, if you are carefully removing links (dead links, non-expert blog, geocities homepage, etc), any removals will be easy to explain and any concerns about your removals should be negated. Provided you act with some caution, common sense dictates that you shouldn't be stopped from cleaning up an article.

Try to avoid promoting any particular view on Wikipedia. Trying to push any particular side, especially a small minority view, is frowned upon and often treated as a form of disruption.

We do cross-project linking and if directly relevant material were available on another WMF project, some limited linking is likely permissable. However, people will have an eye on such a method to see if the cross-linking is promotional or intended as a means to circumvent Wikipedia's rules.

Regarding the publication, provided it is released by a reputable publisher and represents a a significant minority view, it would be OK to use for a short statement or two in the article, at that point. Also, if you were to become published multiple times and establish yourself as a reputable author, external links to your blog would be more acceptable. If you have any further questions or concerns, always feel welcome to leave me a message. Vassyana (talk) 20:34, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

WP:AWB

Hi, as an Admin you should not need specific approval for AWB, and even so, you could approve yourself. Cheers. --Rodhullandemu 23:05, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Noted. I've added myself to the approved list. Thanks! Vassyana (talk) 23:09, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

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Sun Tzu for FAC?

Hey, I don't know if you remember, but I worked on Sun Tzu way back in May 2008, hoping to bring it to FAC eventually. When that project fell by the wayside, you came along and did a great job to the article, bringing it up to GA standards. I've been thinking of working on the article again and bringing it to FAC soon. Would you like to co-nominate it, or are you too busy? What do you think the article still needs before FAC? Thanks in advance! Gary King (talk) 20:35, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

I'd be honored to co-nominate the article for FAC! I'll post a review or suggestions on the article talk page. It definitely needs a bit of work to come up to FA standards, but it should be a solid foundation to build upon. Vassyana (talk) 22:41, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Quick Ayn Rand ArbCom question

I just made an emergency motion on the Workshop page, as there has been a recent explosion of edit warring on the article. Do I need to do anything else or is this sufficient? Idag (talk) 19:02, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Just to support this, we really need some resolution here. Not only edit warring but more insults, the F word and God knows what else. --Snowded (talk) 21:10, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

I've protected the Ayn Rand article for one month. If the dispute spills over into other articles, please let me know. Vassyana (talk) 23:30, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! Idag (talk) 23:45, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Elonka

You mentioned a wish to see Elonka's viewpoint on WP:RFAR. Unfortunately she's on a wikibreak at the moment. -- ChrisO (talk) 21:53, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. Her contribs end 5 days ago with notice of a break of unspecified duration. GRBerry 22:12, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Noted.[5] Thanks! Vassyana (talk) 22:52, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Rand ArbCom (Idag Edit-warring diffs)

I just had a quick question about the edit warring policy. Two of the diffs that are in the factfinding proposal of my edit warring are of me reverting what I thought was vandalism.[6][7] My question is, how exactly do I tell when something is vandalism? Idag (talk) 14:48, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Please accept my apologies, as you should not be chided in the least for those edits. You are correct about both of those diffs. Both were proper reversions of "pointed" vandalism. Some of the diffs in the drafting notes must have gotten mixed up and that is entirely my fault. I have corrected the diffs listed in the proposed decision accordingly and will review the proposed decision to ensure there are no other such errors. Good-faith reversion of blatant vandalism should not in any way be included as evidence of edit-warring. Vassyana (talk) 15:15, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, I was somewhat confused by those. =) Idag (talk) 16:27, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

No problem! Thank you for raising the diffs to my attention, and for handling the manner in such a polite way. Your edits brought the vandalism they were reverting to my attention, but in the process of juggling notes around Idag edits got mixed up with Idag edits. Again, my apologies for the goof. Did you have any additional comments on the proposed decision? If you do, please feel free to post them to the talk page or leave me a message. Be well! Vassyana (talk) 16:58, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

No problem! I can't say that I'm thrilled about the topic ban of myself, but I can certainly understand it. My only additional suggestion is that ArbCom may also want to consider a 1RR restriction on the Ayn Rand and Objectivism group of articles. Looking over some of the background stuff, the previous group of editors to edit those artices also appear to have had an edit-warring problem. There's just something about that subject that draws this type of behavior out, so 1RR may be a good way to nip it in the bud for future conduct. Idag (talk) 17:58, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

(Please keep in mind that all of my replies are as an individual and I don't speak for anyone else.) I would rather not see a 1RR restriction imposed, as I think it would become essentially a point to wikilawyer over edit warring. The reason I feel this way is due to the large number of editors involved at the article. It is possible to carry out some vicious edit wars under 1RR without more than one or two people, if any at all, clearly violating the 1RR restriction, while several people were involved and equally as culpable. For example: User A makes an edit, User B reverts, User C restores, User D reverts, User A restores (first revert), User E reverts, User F restores, User D reverts. Six editors, not an unlikely number for the article. Seven reverts in a row, which is inarguably a nasty edit war. However, only one editor is liable for a 1RR violation (User D). All six editors were involved in the edit war. Five are culpable for the conflict (excusing User B, who did not repeat the initial reversion and could be said to be following BRD). Because of a numerical bar, only one of the five editors are likely to be sanctioned or blocked. If any of the other five editors are sanctioned, they are likely to wikilawyer that they, individually, did not violate the 1RR restriction. I would rather have an admin come in to lay down an article protection and/or feel free to sanction edit warring parties as necessary, without a numerical bar defense for sanctioned parties to call upon. Vassyana (talk) 19:12, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Makes sense, thanks for the reply. Idag (talk) 19:15, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

No problem. If I can answer any further questions, or be of assistance, please don't hesitate to contact me. Be well! Vassyana (talk) 19:19, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Alternative Views

There is a discussion I'm involved in on the Wikiproject Alternate views talkpage, of which you are a member, that I would like your opinion on. I'm trying to get to the bottom of the goals of the wikiproject, as it has been described in a rather worrying way on the Talk:AIDS denialism page. Please do give your opinion here, there (pref.) or on my talk page. Yours, Verbal chat 22:21, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, I was hoping that meco and the AIDS editor weren't speaking for everyone on the project. Verbal chat 22:37, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

No problem. A project of that scope is bound to draw a few people of that sort of view. They're the reason the "policy still applies, including FRINGE" section of the project page exists. It doesn't stop people from making tl;dr assumptions (just like people assume they're entitled to three reverts, despite the policy being explicit to the contrary). However, like the 3RR section, it's still a useful section to point out when encountering those mistaken editors. Vassyana (talk) 23:05, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Please remember to remove articles from 3rd opinion page

When you offer a 3rd opinion please make sure and remove the article in question from the 3rd opinion page. Wikipediatoperfection Wikipediatoperfection (talk) 00:30, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

I always do, but I haven't provided a third opinion in a while. Looking at the 3O history, I see you are likely referring to the Genovese crime family request. The third opinion I provided was for a completely different issue than the recent request and quite some time ago. The recent request is a dispute over whether or not a person is a verifiable leader of the group (see Talk:Genovese_crime_family#Paul_DiMarco and [8]). Vassyana (talk) 04:30, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

On another 3O note, the dispute listed for zero tolerance is found at Talk:Zero tolerance#Equipped with extremely bad sources, rather than the (non-existant) linked sectin. Hope this helps! Vassyana (talk) 04:37, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the help. Sorry to comment without providing context of what article I was talking about. I was indeed thinking of the crime family article. It seems that people have troubles linking the 3O page to the portion of the discussion where they would like a 3O. Thanks for fixing the links at the 3O page. Wikipediatoperfection (talk) 05:55, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

No problem. If I can be of any further help, let me know. Be well! Vassyana (talk) 05:58, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Apostolic Johannite Church delete page

Dear Vassyana:

Thank you very much for your kind letter. I admit that I was concerned about potential bias because of some of the claims that you made that are not founded in fact, but are commonly circulated among partisans of L'Eglise Gnostique (e.g. L'Eglise Gnostique is the largest gnostic church, the Johannite church was merged with Doinel church, etc.) Your forthrightness absolutely does away with those concerns. I have absolutely no suspicion about your good faith and I hope that you will please accept my apologies if I acted out of ignorance.

I will be blunt, as you have done me the honour of doing the same. I still have concerns that you came into the discussion with your mind made up regarding the notoriety of the AJC. I hope that you will honestly consider the changes that have been made to the page and the sources that have been presented. I submit that the article has merit and deserves a place on wikipedia as an asset for researches and the inquisitive, and I hope that you will come to see that as well.

In further bluntness, I think that I allowed myself to get a little too personally invested here, which is my mistake. At the end of the day, we're talking about a wiki article, not the end of the world.  :)

I thank you again for your letter, and remain

sincerely yours

William Behun--Wbehun (talk) 17:00, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Dear Vassayana:

If nothing else has come of this discussion, I've come to have a greater respect for you and your position. I call that a win in any book.

Thank you

William Behun --Wbehun (talk) 22:31, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Deletion of AJC site

Hi Vassyana,

I'm wondering how pages come up for review like this? The page for the AJC was rather sparsely supported, yet so is the one for the Ecclesia Gnostica. The Ecclesia Gnostica is mostly self-referential, as well.

I'm curious why ours was recommended and theirs wasn't. I'm new to wiki-procedure, and so wanted to know.

Thanks,

Father.rassbach (talk) 01:51, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

The process that was used is call "articles for deletion", and commonly called "AfD" (see: WP:AFD). What lead me to the AJC article was an article (now deleted) called "Johannite", which was a mish-mash of topics and Templar fringe theories. Some of the claims in the AJC article set off alarm bells for me. I did a bit of research, looking for information about the church, originally with the hope of expanding and improving the article. However, I was unable to find substantive independent coverage of the Apostolic Johannite Church in reliable sources. The resources I have access to are reasonably comprehensive. I additionally had one of my friends check a couple more periodicals and journal databases for me. Without substantive sources, we cannot meet our basic content policies. (This basic idea is called "notability", in the sense that reputable independent sources have treated the topic as noteworthy.) Thus, I nominated the article for deletion to invite the community to review the article. Other deletion processes are "speedy deletion" and "proposed deletion". If I can help clarify anything further, please do not hesitate to let me know. --Vassyana (talk) 05:25, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your feedback. The AJC is young church, so there is a derth of third party articles and books at this time. Once more appear, I'm sure the article will be resubmitted. As it is, I think it's inclusion on the "Gnosticism for Modern Times" page is sufficient.