Talk:Judaization of Jerusalem

Point of view issues

I have just tagged the article as not maintaining a neutral point of view. The sources at present are all Arab Muslim sources, except for two Evangelical Christian sources (which appear to be from the same source). The article would be greatly improved by including Israeli and Jewish positions on Jerusalem. --A More Perfect Onion (talk) 15:35, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

It should either be deleted or merged into one or more other articles. It is a POV fork of a number of other articles. Most likely all the material already exists in other articles, and the main "theme" is (or can be) covered in Positions on Jerusalem. 6SJ7 (talk) 10:24, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

I think the article should be kept, but renamed to Judaization of Jerusalem, since this phrasing gets about 360 google book hits, compared to 18 hits for the current title. Tiamut^talk 14:16, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Tiamut's suggestion. Actually your sugesstion gave me more room to search and add material to the article. Thanks for the valuable suggestion. Yamanam (talk) 14:28, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

No problem. Note that "Judaization" can also be spelled "Judaisation" (British style). That would add another 72 google book hits attesting to the notability of this subject. I'll try to add some more info too. Cheers. Tiamut^talk 14:43, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Ethnic cleansing of Jerusalem finds about 279,000 (164 on the news page). And 708 books. Not sure if it's the exact same topic but it could be useful for sources. Wodge (talk) 23:42, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Useful sources

Am adding this section to amass scholarly sources useful to the article's development. Please feel free to add your own:

• The Middle East peace process: vision versus reality: Notes that the Judaization of Jerusalem continued throughout the "peace process" (book published in 2002). Lists the construction of "Jewish-only" settlements and the confiscation of and restrictions on Palestinian land use as fundamental to this process. Tiamut^talk 15:37, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

• Yearbook of the United Nations 1998: Notes protests from Arab governments to the Judaization of Jerusalem in a UN security council debate]

• Jerusalem: Discussion of the Judaization of Jerusalem by Henry Cattan. Tiamut^talk 15:40, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

• King Faisal and the Modernization of Saudi Arabia: Notes that the issues surrounding the Judaization of Jerusalem are a cause of concern to the wider Muslim world. Tiamut^talk 15:42, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

• Giving Meaning to Economic, Social, and Cultural Rights: Though it does not discuss them in detail, this book mentions that the process of Judaizing Jerusalem includes means such as the revocation of residency rights, absentee property laws, and discriminatory taxation policies. Tiamut^talk 16:00, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

• American Jewish history: Notes that "America censured Israel in 1968 for its policy of Judaizing Jerusalem: moving Jews into the former Jewish section of the Old City, building new housing projects around the Holy City, and permitting - even encouraging - Christian Arabs to migrate from Israel." Tiamut^talk 16:03, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Arab delegate statement

I have removed this, after attributing and quoting it:

An Arab delegate at the United Nations in 1970 said, "Israeli forces attempted to liquidate the property of around 70,000 Arabs in Jerusalem, and to Judaise the city completely by unifying the two sectors of Jerusalem. The main objective of this measure is to impose the Israeli laws on Arabs or as Israelis explain it is 'to organise the transference of some citizens to Israeli local rule."

I don't think this should be reintroduced as it was previously and it would be preferable if we have a secondary source. In any case, it certainly should not be under the sub-heading "Liquidation of Arabs Property", listed as a "Method". I think the sub-headings need some serious work here. Any takers? Tiamut^talk 00:27, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

I also removed the following

Settlements

By 2007 the West Bank Jewish settler population had reached 282,000. In East Jerusalem it rose to 200,000, massively Judaising the city and precluding it as a Palestinian capital. Today the West Bank is a jigsaw of settlements.

Har Homa

Har Homa is destined to give the Jews a strategic fortress as part of the process of "Judaising" Jerusalem before the final status talks. It lays siege to the Christian Palestinian communities of Beit Sahour and Bethlehem. It eliminates their land reserves, isolates them from Jerusalem and cuts them off from the rest of the West Bank to the north. It threatens the very existence of these ancient Christian communities.

I think we should find better sources for this information before reintroducing it. Evangelicals Now, "The Battle for Jerusalem" is hardly a WP:RS, though the information is not far off the mark. Tiamut^talk 01:55, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Removed two refs: for inclusion later?

• Al Jazeera article in Arabic:
• Tripartite statement of Egypt, Jordan and Palestinians against Judaization of Jerusalem: There is an interesting section here that should be included:

  In a statement read by Egyptian Foreign Minister Amr Musa upon the closing of the summit, the three leaders “stressed their total rejection of the scheme to Judaise Jerusalem and demanded the Israeli government scrap the project immediately.” However, in reply to the statement, Prime Minister Benyamin Netanyahu's spokesman David Bar-Illan told the AFP news agency that “Jerusalem is the capital of Israel and we will not agree to freeze its development while awaiting accords [with the Palestinians].” Mr. Bar-Illan said the Jerusalem plan was of a “municipal nature, without any political implications” and said the allegation Israel was trying to Judaise the city could be construed as anti-Jewish. He also criticised the “threats to use force made each time there is a difference” between Israel and the Palestinians.

  Tiamut^talk 16:45, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Rearanging the artilce and other additions

I have rearanged the overview section, I made it this way to make easier for us to know where to fit new additions. In addition, I have made some additions about Judaising the city from those two articles: Home Demolitions in East Jerusalem, Questions that Should be Frequently Asked and MIDEAST: Israel Moves to Judaise East Jerusalem. Yamanam (talk) 12:08, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Hey there. While you are right that the article needs reorganization, I am not sure, the way you have done it is the most ideal. Would you mind self-reverting and discussing an outline here? I think we need to have a section on "Background" which discusses briefly the switch from Ottoman to British to Jordanian to Israeli control, and the population today. We also need a section on "Terminology" which defines "Judaization", "Judaization of Jerusalem" and its variants, "Judaizing", "Judaise", etc. It should also define "Greater Jerusalem", "Jerusalem", "East Jerusalem", "West Jerusalem" etc. Then a section on the "Means and effects". The can be broken down into those identified by the scholars cited: for example, "Settlements", "House demolitions", "Residency rights", etc. (we can work to flesh this out more together). "Demographic debate" can also be a sub-section of this. Then "Support for Judaization efforts", "Criticism of Judaization efforts" and maybe a new sub-section on "Criticism of the use of the word 'Judaization'" (or something like that) to further explore opinions of those like A.M. Rosenthal (now linked only in external links), Dan Diker and Justus Weiner on that particular issue. Although, on second though, that's maybe best discussed in the section on "Terminology".

Anyway, I hope you'll consider self-reverting so that we can get something together here first. Cheers, Tiamut^talk 12:32, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Whoops! I see you have already moved on to adding other things. In that case, scratch what I just said. I will try to reorganize along the lines I have proposed above (if that's okay with you), taking into consideration what you are adding. So nevermind self-reverting. Do you mind if I start doing some of what I have outlined above? Tiamut^talk 12:35, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Of course, please go ahead, I am sorry I didn't note your post here, if I did I would have reverted my edits before adding new ones. Any suggestion that I can do while you re-aragne the article. Thanks! Yamanam (talk) 12:38, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

And by the way, I agree on the new arangement you've suggested here. Yamanam (talk) 12:41, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Tiamut You have done a great job and I am grateful you are applying your skills to the article. Yamanam (talk) 12:47, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Thank you Yamanam. I am grateful to you for starting it. I would never have thought of it, but once I saw it being put up for deletion, I realized what an important topic it is, and hhow it is not adequately covered in other articles related to the subject of Jerusalem. Thank you for opening my eyes. Tiamut^talk 13:33, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

May be of interest

Jonathan Cook writes, in the national, about settlers using forged title deeds to claim land in East Jerusalem (here).

I don't know how far off this is from the topic, buy maybe somebody might like to include it somewhere?

Cheers, pedrito - talk - 26.03.2009 12:43

I beleive this is important, it might be included under a section that might discusses the dispute over certain properties in East Jerusalem, here is an article at Haaretz that discusses the ownership of disputed land and houses in E. Jerusalem. I think both, along with some other sources might make a good section. Thanks Yamanam (talk) 12:50, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I just want to caution that for the time being, we restrict sources to those using the words "Judaization", "Judaise", etc., If a scholarly source has identified a particular action or event in that context, we may be able to use media reports for extra detail. But we should not include mention of items in this article that have never been characterized as Judaisation explicitly by secondary sources. Are you following me? Tiamut^talk 13:37, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree. The only way for this article to expand currently is by focusing on the key words: Judaise, Judaising, etc. Other than that it would be in violation with OR. I think this strikes off my last suggestion. Yamanam (talk) 13:58, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Here's an article that connects what's happening in Silwan to the Judaization of Jerusalem (Meir Margalit, former city councillor now with ICAHD, describes it that way). Tiamut^talk 16:33, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Khalil Tafakji from the GIS department of the Arab Studies Society of Jerusalem characterizes the objective of the Jerusalem 2000 plan as the Judaization of Jerusalem, "to change the demographic composition of the city to favor the Jewish-Israeli population. The plan is quite clear that the planning objectives of municipal policy and practice are to maintain a Palestinian population that is no more than 30 percent of the city's total population. Towards this goal, there are two kinds of policies and practices, those that aim to increase the city's Jewish population, and those that aim to decrease the city's Palestinian population." Tactics to increase the Jewish population include: settlement construction and expansion, the development of settler infrastructure (such as Jerusalem Light Rail), and "support at all levels - from the Jerusalem municipality, to the Israeli government, to Zionist para-state organizations like the Jewish National Fund - for settler groups like Elad and Ateret Kohanim which actively work to take over Palestinian homes and real estate within the city to establish settler communities in the heart of Palestinian neighborhoods. This is clearest in the old city, but takes place across the eastern part of the city. For instance, the municipality allocated a $13 million budget for an eight-year project to establish a 'national park' in the al-Bustan Valley of Silwan, a Palestinian area, with a large proportion of the funds for the project going to the Elad settler organization." Tactics to decrease the Palestinian population include: house demolitions (such as those in Silwan). There is other useful information in this article. While it is published at Znet, which is usually not considered an WP:RS, it is an interview with a geographer and resident of Jerusalem who works with an organization mapping developments in Jerusalem - i.e. he's an expert. So I think the source passes our RS standards. Tiamut^talk 10:36, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I've checked all of your sources for your thesis.

• No.6 Robert Blobaum, De-Judaisation Antisemitism and its opponents in modern Poland, p.237 and elsewhere in the book, it refers to Polish attempts to boycotts Jews etc. Irrelevant.
• No.7 No.7 Ilona N. Rashkow, ‘Hebrew Bible Translation and the Feaqr of Judaization’ in Sixteenth Century Journal, XXI, No.2, 1990. The word is used to describe Protestant resistance to Hebraic literalism in Tanakh translations. Irrelevant
• No.8 Robert S. Wistrich, Demonizing the Other: Antisemitism, Racism and Xenophobia (Studies in Antisemitism), Routledge 1999 p.138 is a gloss on Karl Marx, '“Judaization” meant to him that the trends attributed to Jews.' On page 80 he uses it positively, of Christians converting to Judaism in antiquity. Irrelevant
• Note 9. Joseph Klein, Excusing Palestinian terrorists, Frontpage Magazine March 05, 2008. Trashy source, not reliable for anything really. Just the usual smear attack on the UN's John Dugard. Smear tabloid junk
• Note 10.Independent Media Review Analysis (IMRA) Michael Widlanski, Palestinians Rev-Up Anti-Semitism and 'Resistance’ in Anti-Judaization’ Drive. Smear Tabloid junk

Note see 10 the author charges that the Palestinians, in resisting a loss of this foothold in Jerusalem are thereby engaged in an 'Anti-Judaisation' drive!!!!!!! I.e. he finds something culpably anti-semitic in East Jerusalemite Palestinians resisting Judaisation!!!! Thanks pal. That just about sews up the case! Nishidani (talk) 16:04, 27 March 2009 (UTC)Nishidani (talk) 16:06, 27 March 2009 (UTC) Forgot to add

• Note 11. Richard S. Levy,Antisemitism. This just refers us to Henri Gougenot des Mousseaux's racist polemic of 1869, le Juif, le judaïsme, et la judaïsation des peoples chrétiens.

Comment' All but two sources, the ones that are from polemical tabloids, refer to historic usage or use the term to interpret historical facts, from the 16th century (one instance); Poland in the 1930s (I instance); Karl Marx's analysis of 'The Jewish Question' in the mid-eighteenth century; and one French anti-Semitic polemic from 1869, which uses the word 'judaisation' much as it uses the word 'Jew' and 'Judaism', neither of the latter two terms bearing opprobrium because Henri Gougenot happened to use them. No instance comes from English usage. As I wrote on the deletion page, 'judaise'has a very long complex history, and can have negative or positive meanings, and is a borrowing into Western languages calqued from Hebrew. The abstract noun 'Judaization' is rare, and has no negative meaning according to the O.E.D. Sources suggest indeed that it has attained some vogue in recent usage precisely because of the transformation of Jerusalem under recent governments. It was used, apparently, by Ehud Olmert in 1995. Lastly, the sources re WW2 deal with Poland and Germany. I would like to see someone provide me with the precise language in, at least German, since it has at least two distinct words for 'Judaization'. It would be appreciated lastly if someone could provide the words used in Hebrew language newspapers that correspond to 'Judaize'/'Judaization' (of Jerusalem).Nishidani (talk) 17:11, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Criticism of the anti-Semitic connotations of "Judaization"

I just reverted an edit by User:Malcolm Schosha here. While these sources discuss the term "Judaization", they do not discuss the "Judaization of Jerusalem". As such, they are better suited to the article on Judaization. They certainly do not belong in this article as the first sentence of the introduction. If there are sources which describe the use of the term "Judaization" as "anti-Semitic" in the context of a discussion of the government policy or strategy to Judaize Jerusalem, I have no objection to creating a section in this article to discuss that position and then adding a sentence to the introduction that summarizes that body of literature. The way this was added here, to the introduction, is both WP:OR and WP:UNDUE. Tiamut^talk 11:56, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

The historical implications of the term "Judaization" need to be presented in the lead, because that term frames [1] the entire content of the article. It is not acceptable to use the term "Judaization of Jerusalem" without beginning with the implications of the key word in that term, and the historical (and current) implications that are carried with it. [2][3] Malcolm Schosha (talk) 12:02, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

So let me see if I got this straight... Since some people think the term Judaization is Antisemitic, the article on the Judaization of Jerusalem has to start with that opinion?

No. This is not only, as Tiamut has pointed out, the wrong article, it is also a massive WP:UNDUE and Poisoning the well. You've got beef with the use of Judaization, then take it there, don't battle it out here.

Cheers, pedrito - talk - 27.03.2009 12:27

1. No, not "some people", but WP:reliable sources say the term "Judaization" has a history of antisemitic use.
2. Yes, the article does need to start with an explanation of the key term used. Placing a discussion in proper context is a fundamental of good editing.

Malcolm Schosha (talk) 13:15, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Malcolm Schosha, which one of the sources you cited says that "Judaization" when used to refer to the government strategy/policy/process as implemented in Jerusalem, is anti-Semitic? As far as I can see, not one.

The sources you have presented discuss "Judaization" and its use in other historical contexts. As such, they are more appropriate to the article on Judaization itself.

As I said above, if you have sources that suggest that using Judaization to describe the Israeli government's policies in Jerusalem is anti-Semitic, we can create a sub-section in this article which discusses that position. Then, we could incorporate a line in the introduction reflecting that position. Your addition, as I said previously, violates WP:OR and WP:UNDUE. It also pays no mind at all to WP:LEAD, since it places the opinions of a few scholars on a separate but related subject which is not discussed in this article as the first sentence. A prime example of "framing the debate". Tiamut^talk 13:26, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Malcolm, can you point me to the policy or guideline on which you base your second claim?

Cheers and thanks, pedrito - talk - 27.03.2009 13:28

The key word, "Judaization" needs explanation. Explanations are needed in articles when there is a key word with complex implications. For example, when I created this article, I intended to make it an article on the concept of the Stoic sage, but it quickly became clear that it needed to be placed in a larger context of the concept of the sage in Greek philosophy. The presentation of Stoic Sage needed to be put into the larger context of the sage in Greek philosophy to understand it properly because the word "sage" is very complex in its implications.

I would have rathered that this article had a title that is less highly charged, and less highly weighted to one side. Something like "Israeli Government Policy and Changing Jerusalem Demographics" would need no explanation, such as I added to the lead. The title would be framing the article a more fair and neutral context. As the article is, with the title it has, an explanation is needed.

I am not saying my change to the lead needs to stay exactly like I wrote it (WP editing does not work that way), but something like it needs to be there. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 14:19, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Your summary of what varying mostly irrelevant sources say amounts to WP:OR. Those sources do not make the term, in the header phrasing, 'controversial'. A Jewish person can say 'Jew' and be neutral, as can a goy. The same word in the mouth of an anti-Semite carries a hostile tone. Words are defined by usage, and do not have intrinsic properties. Nishidani (talk) 17:16, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Reasons why the population is the way it is

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/763136.html says "Some 313,000 Jews have left Jerusalem over the last 25 years, 105,000 more than those who moved to the capital during the same period." The Arabs have more children, and the Jews are apparently leaving faster than they are entering. I believe that is relevant, since the article mentions that the percentage of Arabs to Jews in Jerusalem has gone up. It is because of those two factors. Dream Focus 13:41, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Move to new name

The present name of this article is not NPOV, and the name should be changed, per WP guidelines for descriptive names. I suggest that the article be named, instead, "Israeli Government Policy and Changing Jerusalem Demographics". Malcolm Schosha (talk) 18:45, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Sounds good. 6SJ7 (talk) 19:49, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

First explain to us why in contemporary Hebrew, the verb corresponding to English 'to judaize' and the noun corresponding to 'Judaization' are not NPOV (I know they have distinct meanings).Nishidani (talk) 20:20, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

And explain why the English word is not NPOV. Nableezy (talk) 21:03, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Hebrew? This is the English language Wikipedia.

As for why it is non-POV, I have explained that in a series of edits in this thread, above. As per Wikipedia policy on descriptive names it is clear that a move is necessary. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 21:27, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

True by when you come across an article like M. Artziely's, ‘The Judaization offensive’. Haaretz, November 30, 1984, the Hebrew text is translated in sources precisely as I give it, and no one finds the word offensive. Israeli scholars don't, Haaretz doesn't. Ehud Olmert uses it. No one except you. And since you have convinced no one, I suggest you work harder to prove your case, since a change of title, move 3, depends on the success of move 2 (query the word), after move 1 (call for deletion of the article. I have already edited in evidence that Senator Ribicoff found it perfectly okay to speak of de-Judaization in Russia (using the English word translating the German Entjudung beloved of Nazis, I might add), as Meron Benvenisti and hundreds of other scholars or writers speak of Judaization in Jerusalem. The policy is not appropriate. The phrasing has been around for 40 years, and no one seems to have objected much, until this thread.Nishidani (talk) 21:34, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Nishidani wrote: "no one finds the word offensive".

How do you figure that? I gave five WP:reliable sources above that indicate it is quite offensive. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 21:44, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

And I answered you. The sources were either irrelevant, or from activist tabloids that do not conform to WP:RS. See the Deletion page.Nishidani (talk) 21:46, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

We need a section on actual development, and changes enacted.

I.e.1967-1968 'Demolition of the Magharib or Moroccan Quarter to clear a plaza in front of the Western Wall. In April 1968, Ministry of Finance published an expropriation order that extended the traditional Jewish Quarter to more than twice its size. Approximately 700 buildings were expropriated, of which only 105 had been owned by Jews before 1948. More than one-quarter of the Palestinian buildings were endowed as waqf, both public and private. The expropriated area was subsumed under the name Jewish Quarter even though it included the former Maghrabi quarter and many other smaller and famous quarters, such as the Harat Abu Sa’ud, redolent with Palestinian and Arab history.’ Michael Dumper, The Politics of Sacred Space: The Old City of Jerusalem in the Middle East Conflict, Lynne Rienner Publishers, 2002 p.43 Nishidani (talk) 20:42, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Harat Abu Sa’ud doesn't link. Work there for our friend Al-Ameer son,if administrative duties leave him the time, with input from Huldra and Tiamut, esp. given its deep Palestinian and Arab historical associations. Nishidani (talk) 20:44, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Defining Judaization

Might I suggest to both Malcom Schosha and Nishidani that we keep definitions of Judaization which are not directly related to Judaization in Jerusalem out of this article altogether? Nish, while your sources are very interesting and far more relevant to the context of this article in that they discuss the use of the term in Israel, I think its better to keep alternate definitions and their associated connotations separate from this article. This article should define and focus only on Judaization in Jerusalem. Anything dealing with Judaization in general can be covered in detail in Judaization itself, which is sorely lacking in references and information and which I was hoping to epxand myself as well in the coming days. What do you think? Tiamut^talk 21:48, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Fine by me. M blob of material could easily be shifted there by anyone. But I think Malcolm should read it here first, since he persists in the idea that 'Judaization' is an antisemitic word. It isn't, and it has several uses, in English and in Hebrew. Once he lets this weird obsession rest, by all means relocate it. I shouldn't by my own rules even be editing wiki, and keep hanging round like a bad smell. Cheers Nishidani (talk) 21:54, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I understand your frustration over Malcolm's refusal to conceded the mutli-faceted (and wholly inoffensive) uses of Judaization. And I found the information very interesting and arguably relevant. But I think it's best if we leave the immense literature of the different meanings of Judaization throughout history in various disciplines to a discussion on that page. So I will move some of what you added here. I think Malcolm has seen it by now (he has deleted it after all, so he should have read it). And I hope that all other disputes over the meaning of Judaization in contexts other than this one (i.e. referring to the government strategy/policy as it regards Jerusalem) will be talked out over there, not here. Cool? Thanks for your understanding and for taking a break from your self-imposed retirement to pitch in. ;) Tiamut^talk 22:03, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

The Hebrew and Arabic words corresponding to the Englilsh should be added, I think. It is a standard phrase in both languages.Nishidani (talk) 22:18, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I know that in Arabic it's referred to as tahweed il-quds. In Hebrew, the Judaization of the Galilee is yehud ha-galil. My Hebrew is practically non-existent, but I assume its yehud ha-yerushalaim. I get my news in Arabic, so its best to check with someone who knows. If no one else adds it, I will tomorrow. My new computer doesn't have Arabic font on the keyboard so it needs a little time. Tiamut^talk 22:26, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Defining Judaization: Means and effects in Jerusalem

I have tagged this section of the article for NPOV because, although there are multiple sources, there is only one side of the argument presented; thereby violating the basic principle of WP:NPOV. -- Malcolm Schosha (talk) 11:41, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Please specify which perspectives, represented in reliable sources are missing from this section. A list of sources you would like to see included would help us to move forward to address your concerns. Barring identification of the sources/persepctives missing, the tag should be removed. Please note, it is not enough for you to say X perspective should be represented, without providing at least one reliable source that expresses that opinion. Thanks. Tiamut^talk 17:30, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

I never managed to become very fluent in wiki-speak, but I assume that you are just asking for clarification of my previous statement on the section called "Defining Judaization: Means and effects in Jerusalem". According to WP:NPOV the full range of opinions from reliable sources should be included, as explained here:

Neutrality requires that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each. Now an important qualification: In general, articles should not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views, and will generally not include tiny-minority views at all. For example, the article on the Earth does not mention modern support for the Flat Earth concept, a view of a distinct minority.

Unless you contend that sources such as Justus Weiner and Dan Diker are WP:fringe sources, their views need to be included in this section. As it is the section, and article in general, includes the full range of views from A to B. If no one else makes the necessary additions I will do that myself, but my time available for WP editing is limited because of real life obligations (particularly right now), so it may be a while before I can get to it.

By the way, if it is your position that sources such as Justus Weiner and Dan Diker are fringe sources, we can argue that point by moving this discussion to the WP:Fringe theories/Noticeboard. -- Malcolm Schosha (talk) 11:31, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

I think Justus Weiner and Dan Diker represent a minority viewpoint on this subject, and arguably a fringe viewpoint. Regardless, I don't see how this question is relevant to your objection about NPOV. Both Dan Diker and Justus Weiner are given practically an entire section (i.e. Demographic debate") in which their views are presented. I have made that section a sub-section of the "Defining Judaization: Means and effects in Jerusalem" section, whereas previously it was a standalone section. Your objection to the lack of representation of their views in this section seems strange since they have a whole sub-section already and now it is a sub-section in the section you said they were not represented in. So I hope that alleviates your concerns. Or did I misunderstand? Tiamut^talk 12:23, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Replacing Arabic place names with Hebrew names

This section is about the actual name not what language its in. Wodge (talk) 18:45, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

All the -- so called -- source does is report what the Jordain prince said, and what a newspaper (cited indirectly) said. Nevo does not say it is true, and there is no further citation given for the newspaper. The section is nonsense. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 19:06, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

You can't delete stuff just because you think its rubbish. Wodge (talk) 19:11, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

I deleted it because the source does not support the content. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 19:25, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Please refer to WP: reliable sources, particularly concerning news organizations, which says:

News reporting is distinct from opinion pieces. Opinion pieces are only reliable for statements as to the opinion of their authors, not for statements of fact, and should be attributed in-text. In articles about living persons, only material from high-quality news organizations should be used.

You will see that there are two problems:

1. An opinion piece is used for a statement of fact, which WP does not allow.
2. For opinion pieces it is required that the author, whose opinion it is, must be named. But this material does not attribute the opinion to its author.

Because the content attributes fact to a an opinion piece from a news source, and because it does not cite the author of the opinion piece, the entire content of this section amounts to crap. It has to go. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 21:46, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

After 1948, the Arabic nomenclature of Western Jerusalem was Hebraized. The former three Arab neighbourhoods of Talbiya, Qatamon and Baq’ah were respectively renamed in Hebrew Komemiyyut]], Gonen and Ge’ulim.. The official renamings never quite caught on, however. Katamon is only used in municipal publications.

So the renaming technique (as more broadly throughout Israel (see Meron Benvenisti 2002 for a complete study) was also applied after 1948 to the Jerusalem Arab areas captured by Israel. There doesn't seem to be a wiki article on the Baq'ah = Ge'ulim suburb, where the train station is. Worth adding perhaps as an antecedent. Nishidani (talk) 22:17, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Accusation/view

Michael's objection, given the huge amount of evidence in scholarly reports, UN publications, Israeli newspapers and books that explicitly speak of the 'Judaization of Jerusalem', is odd. No one is troubled by the fact that since the 1950s, as everywhere attested in standard Israeli textbooks and histories, the government determined on a policy of the 'Judaization of the Galilee'. I won't cite the books, anyone can google this. The evidence is massive, known and not contested. It was policy. As Ben-Gurion quipped in travelling through the area at the time.'Hey, I'm not supposed to be travelling in Syria', seeing that its Arab character was still strong. And planning maps outlined how to introduce settlements there to break up any Palestinian continuity of habitation. This was called ' the 'Judaization of the Galilee' strategy. Michael comes hotly at the heels of this article, and takes exception to a phrase which is used widely to refer to the same agenda in Jerusalem. He has no evidence for his contentions, but suddenly, when a policy that has been applied consistently since 1948 to the Negev, the Galilee and Israel itself (Haifa's street names and districts all changed), is applied to Jerusalem, it becomes 'anti-semitic' stormtropper insinuation. He insists it is an 'accusation'. That has a polemical edge to it. There is intrinsic element of 'accusation' in registering a series of facts that in technical literature, academic books and newspapers is called by a certain phrase. So I have replaced his 'accusation' with 'view(point)', though I really don't think this necessary. It is not clear whether he contests the reality of the revocation of residency rights, absentee property laws, and discriminatory taxation policies, denial of building permits, expropriation of land with Palestinian title, degradation of services, and a thousand other practices used to control the demographics, and living space of the city, or whether he says that all of this cannot be termed 'Judaization', that it's something else, despite the fact that Ehudf Olmert, when Mayor in 1995, called it the 'Judaization of Jerusalem'. So far we have an attack on the title, and one word, after a deletion campaign. I renew my request to him to read the documentation, that which denies this, and help us edit the page with that perspective. Bickering like this is pointless. Nishidani (talk) 20:28, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

I can live with the compromise. As for the rest of your remarks, it is irrelevant what either of us think about the all these accusations, because the article must be built on sources that are WP:reliable and WP:verify. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 20:39, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Read the article. Its built on reliable sources you can verify.Nishidani (talk) 21:08, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

The refs I checked seem ok, although the conclusions drawn from them was, in one case, doubtful. We can return to that soon. The biggest problem with the sourcing is its selectively selecting those who support the claims Israel is practicing demographic engineering of the Jerusalem population. We will get back to that also. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 21:24, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

No one is stopping you from using reliable sources to contest the viewpoints of the numerous scholars who describe the process as 'Judaization'. Find them read them, edit them in. No one owns this page. Nishidani (talk) 21:28, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Sources and Material

• Leilani Farha, ‘Bringing Economic, Social, and Cultural Rights Home: Palestinians in Occupied East Jerusalem and Israel,’ in Isfahan Merali, Valerie Oosterveld (eds.), 'Giving Meaning to Economic, Social, and Cultural Rights',University of Pennsylvania Press, 2001, pp160-179

-Text:Building permits are impossible to obtain. ‘the only way a Palestinian can receive a building permit is if the applicant can prove sole ownership of or title to the plot of land on which he or she wishes to build or renovate. As the Israeli government knows, this is practically impossible because when Israel occupied what is now East Jerusalem, 80 percent of the land was privately owned by Arabs but only one-third had been formally surveyed and registered by the Jordanian government. Since 1967 no land registration for Palestinians has been permitted' p.162

-In the notes (n.3 p.254) she refers us to the United Nations Commission on Human Settlements, HS/C/14/2/Add.1 at 7 (1992), “Housing Requirements of the Palestinians,” which states: “The military occupation and colonial policy of the occupying power which is aimed at the Judaization of the land had extremely adverse effects on the Palestinian housing sector.”

content forking?

I've never of this term/theory outside of the general P/Ier propaganda campaigns. Could this constitute OR? I can't help but point out the rather bigotry the title denotes. Might as well have an article called "Islamization of Jerusalem" or "Christianzation of Jerusalem." Plenty of fringy references to support those theories....Wikifan12345 (talk) 14:29, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

We could merge relevant, non-cherry picked sources into a different article and dump this one. Renaming is a must as this is far from a generally accepted historical fact by experts. Wikifan12345 (talk) 14:31, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

We have already been through an AfD and the article survived. If you want to propose a rename, you are free to do so, but you have to gain consensus for the change. "Judaization of Jerusalem" is a well-known phrase referring to the Israeli government strategy/policy of maximizing the Jewish presence and minimizing the non-Jewish presence in Jerusalem. It's notability and use is established by the scholarly sources cited in the article and there are many more references that have yet to be added. Tiamut^talk 14:40, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

"Surviving" an AfD (no consensus) does not mean to article should not be merged. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 15:08, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

No, it means that there was no consensus to merge. pedrito - talk - 22.04.2009 15:16

No consensus is a common result in POV articles that revolve around Israel/Palestine concerns. It's almost always conditioned through roadblocking and never-ending rhetoric that makes it extremely difficult for an admin to make an objective opinion without pissing off 20 collectively-minded users. Wikifan12345 (talk) 23:32, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

After full reading the article I can confidently say this POS is nothing less than a joke. Here, take a look at the lead:

"[title], refers to the view that Israel has sought to transform the physical and demographic landscape of Jerusalem to correspond with a vision of a united and fundamentally Jewish Jerusalem under Israeli sovereignty.[1]."

Wtf? Such a hostile, POV, and far from historically corroborated and/or unpopular illusion should not exist on wikipedia. It's referenced propaganda at best, and that's being generous. And it's hard not to notice the history and identify the most contributing editors carry a less-than-objective view of Israel and Jews. I wouldn't even endorse a merge. Truly pathetic. Wikifan12345 (talk) 01:20, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Please tone it down. You are not going to gain consensus for any changes by insulting the people who have working on this article. Either make a proposal to address your concerns, edit the article to improve ot, or, if you strongly feel it should not exist at all, simply back away for now and consider reopening an AfD at a later date. Tiamut^talk 13:16, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

I think Wikifan's analysis is pretty restrained. As I have previously pointed out, the name of the article is not neutral, but rather sounds like a headline from Der Stürmer. -- Malcolm Schosha (talk) 14:53, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Do you have difficulty understanding simple instructions Malcolm? It seems so, because you have twice been blocked now for accusing 90% of the editors who contribute to I-P articles with a "pro-Palestinian POV" as anti-Semites, and still, you continue making allusions to anti-Semitism. Read Judaization. If it's a pejorative term, its not mentioned in that article. If you have reliable sources indicating this to be case, please take it to that page and add them. If you don't, I'd ask you stop expressing your unsourced opinion that using the term "Judaization" is somehow anti-Semitic. Thanks. Tiamut^talk 14:59, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Tiamut wrote "Do you have difficulty understanding simple instructions Malcolm?"

The answer is that I do not follow instructions, I do what I think is the right thing to do, ie ethical. Just following instructions was the excuse of Nazis. I can live comfortably with getting sent int wiki-exile, if that should follow from what I consider doing the right thing. I do not edit WP at the price of acting as some administrator's flunky.

As for the antisemitic connotations of the article name, I have already discussed that above[4], so my saying it sounds like a headline from Der Stürmer is nothing new. In other words I think the name of the article violates WP:Naming conventions. -- Malcolm Schosha (talk) 15:45, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Malcolm, I've this note on Sandstein's talk page. I'm sorry, but I'm not sure what else to do about your attitude. These continual accusations of anti-Semitism with no effort towards providing reliable sources that can be used in the article is toxic and tiresome. If you want to a martyr to your cause, I can't stop you. I'm done here. Tiamut^talk 15:57, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

That is not a surprise. However, in this case I have been talking about content. But maybe Sandstein will give you what you want. That would not surprise me either. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 16:31, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Malcolm, we have fourteen (these could easily be multiplied) academic sources, many written by ranking Israeli scholars, on the 'Judaization of Jerusalem'. I even went to the trouble to give you the history, based on a translation of a term in the Book of Esther, for the word 'judaization'. You evidently have not read Der Stürmer, one of whose functions was to write catchy anti-semitic headlines that then circulated as slogans in the antisemitic campaigns of those times ('Die Juden sind unser Unglueck' etc.). This article's header reflects usage, perfectly normal among Israeli scholars, it does not promote usage, and your confusion of 'Judaization as a pejorative with anti-Semitism reflects a lack of knowledge of Hebrew and English usage on a par with your lack of knowledge of the history of anti-Semitism. Rather therefore than harp, help improve the page.Nishidani (talk) 16:11, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

The article violates WP:Naming conventions. The name is not neutral. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 16:25, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

You've repeated that for months now. The point of a talk page is to resolve problems, not harp on personal beliefs. I could, at the drop of a hat, write an entire section, with full scholarly annotations, here on the Judaisation of Eretz Yisrael as an halakhic commandment, according to a large number of West Bank rabbis (Yisrael Ariel, to name but one). I don't. You don't appear to know what restraint is. Repeating the mantra about der Stuermer, or your personal moral, rather than ethical, reserves about the English calque'Judaisation' on an impeccable Hebrew term, is not just bad taste, it is, worse, a declaration of ignorance.Nishidani (talk) 17:21, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Nishidani, please review WP:NPA. What you think of my supposed "ignorance" is irrelevant to this discussion. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 19:12, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

An RS issue

I am removing the clip from Weiner, he is obviously not an RS. -- Yamanam (talk) 10:50, 17 May 2009 (UTC)