Talk:Wind turbine

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HAWT Disadvantages

I don't like the line "Downwind variants suffer from fatigue and structural failure caused by turbulence." If they all suffer from fatigue and structural failure then what engineer would be dumb enough to choose them? Choosing the right materials and paying attention to vibration modelling will solve that problem at the cost of something else. With a failure mechanism of something as expensive as a wind turine, if the lay-man knows about it, then it doesn't happen anymore. Also, turbulence is not the only factor causing fatigue loading in turbines, the rotation of the blades and fluctuation in mean wind speeds (on which turbulence is superimposed) are also contributors. Anything can fail if subjected to a high enough level of fatigue loading for long enough, but I don't see Yuri Geller's trick listed as a disadvantage on the spoon page. 86.44.200.132 (talk) 17:50, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

I also just spotted "The blades rotate at 10-22 revolutions per minute", when myself and my friends measured one at 30rpm last weekend, so the two citations must be wrong (or the turbines we saw were out of control) 86.44.200.132 (talk) 18:09, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Is it even possible to buy a commercial-scale wind turbine with a downwind rotor? NASA discovered the downwind blade fatigue problem with its early MOD series test turbines. Each time a blade passed through the tower wind shadow, the sudden drop and then immediate rise in wind force on the blade was like dropping an elephant on it. NASA quickly gave up on downwind rotors, as did the rest of the industry. As far as rotor RPM goes, it's a function of rotor diameter - bigger rotors turn more slowly (although the tip speed ratios are similar due to the longer blades). --Teratornis (talk) 03:24, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Small scale (sub-25kW range) often have rotor speeds in the hundreds of RPMs. Slower turbines are usually commercial scale and linked directly to the grid so are required to turn slower to allow for proper synchronization with the grid frequency(Joryn (talk) 18:39, 30 September 2009 (UTC))

Internal arrangement needed

We could certainly use a cross-section drawing through a typical turbine, showing the blades, hub, speed increaser gearbox, generator, blade pitch controls,blade teetering, nacelle yaw controls, weather instruments, brake, slip rings, cables,and cooling system. Also, we need a description of these sub systems. Someone commented at one of the other wind articles that we don't explain *how* the process works, and he's right! I know, I know, [WP:Be Bold]] and write it myself... --Wtshymanski (talk) 16:04, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Eventually I might get around to uploading some images from this page to Commons, although I'd like to find higher-resolution versions of them:

• http://www1.eere.energy.gov/windandhydro/wind_how.html
  • e.g. http://www1.eere.energy.gov/windandhydro/images/illust_large_turbine.gif

Also see some of the diagrams in commons:Category:Wind turbines such as:

• File:Schema eolienne.svg
• File:Schema Windenergieanlage.png
• File:Wind turbine int.svg

some of which are in other languages. Someone could make English versions. --Teratornis (talk) 10:08, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Wind Turbine Life Span

I think it would be beneficial to have a paragraph on wind turbine life spans. I have heard that the average life span of a turbine is 30 years, but I don't have any sources to back that up. Does anyone know that number and have any sources offhand to improve the article with?--Swithich (talk) 04:13, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

I read about the Kamaoa Wind Farm in Hawaii with an original construction in 1987 that recently repowered to new wind turbines. I saw some photos on Flickr of the original wind turbines just before repowering. They looked to be in pretty bad shape after 20 years of getting pounded by the weather - towers rusted, some with broken blades, etc. Presumably new wind turbines are getting more durable, but who knows. A lot depends on the level of maintenance, of course. If you keep painting the towers and replacing the moving parts that wear out, a wind turbine could theoretically last as long as any other large building that gets good maintenance. Anyway, we can look for photos on Flickr with a {{Flickr free}} template I recently created:

• Search Flickr for images with the keywords: Hawaii wind farm under these licenses: cc-by or cc-by-sa
  • http://flickr.com/photos/rstanek/258089172/
  • http://flickr.com/photos/hellochris/598702649/ etc.
• Kamaoa Wind Farm
• Ka Lae#Wind farms (I should add some photos here after I upload them from Flickr to Commons)

--Teratornis (talk) 10:21, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

History photo- which is better for the article?

The world's first megawatt wind turbine at Castleton, Vermont

The world's first automatically operated wind turbine was built in 1888 by Charles F. Brush

Unfortunately, both these photos won't fit in the history section, so a choice has to be made. The current photo is on the left depicting the first 1MW turbine. The proposed new photo on the right of is of Charles Brush's electric wind turbine from the 19th century. I believe it better suits the article for a number of reasons:

• visual value- What new information to you get from a photo versus a text description? What does the 1 MW turbine photo add? It is a generic design- seeing it doesn't tell you much. The 19th century photo has a dense amount of visual information.
• historic value- The 19th century turbine was the first automatic wind turbine, built by a notable historic figure in early history of electricity (Charles F. Brush), was the first wind turbine in the US for continuous production of electricity, and was a very early example of practical use renewable energy (not an experiment- used 20 years). The 1MW turbine is from much later- 1941 after many different turbines had been produced. What makes this one notable? 1MW was simply a quantitative leap, and whatever the project is not even notable enough for the article to discuss. (Why not the first 500kV turbine?)
• asthetic- better quality photo (1MW is washed out with blades blurred- can hardly make out what it is), The 19th century turbine has a higher visual impact- due to the target shape, variety of textures and the gargantuan dimensions (note size of the man in the photo).

Aparently not everyone agrees the 19th century photo is superior, since the change was reverted. Any comments either way? -J JMesserly (talk) 22:41, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

I think more photos are (usually) better than fewer. Wikipedia has far too many articles with no photos at all yet, so I'd be more concerned about filling the photo gaps before we worry about trimming "excess" photos out of the relatively few articles one could consider adequately illustrated. This article surveys some wind turbines through the ages, and I think depicting as many as we can with historical photos makes the article better. Old wind turbines look different than modern wind turbines, so how else can the reader picture these antiques? We can fit arbitarily many photos by using one or more gallery tags. See for example:

• Wind power in Italy#Gallery
• Wind power in Ohio#NASA Lewis MOD series
• Unconventional wind turbines#Wind turbines on public display

It's often hard to fit many photos into sections with "loose" image links; the layout can get busy, and it looks different on every browser, so two editors might start reverting each other because one who sees a good layout can't tell that the other editor sees a mess. In contrast, I suspect galleries maintain a more standard appearance across browsers. (And for future reference, WP:TALK#Editing comments says we can hide image links on a talk page after discussion of them has ended.) --Teratornis (talk) 04:04, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Of course the section has the {{Main}} link to History of wind power where we can put as many photos of old wind turbines as we want. Thus it may not matter as much which photo makes the cut here. If we don't want to put a gallery into the summary section of Wind turbine#History, then I suppose we can argue over which one photo to put in. If there can only be one photo, it seems the choice will be arbitrary and different people are unlikely to agree. People don't select their favorite photos by checking through a list of rational arguments. Photo preference tends to be immediate, impulsive, and emotional, like taste in food or music. Oh and incidentally, I have found some better photos of the wind turbine from Grandpa's Knob, but they are all under copyright (boo, hiss). --Teratornis (talk) 04:56, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

As it is now, the 1888 picture is clearly preferable, for the reasons given by JMesserly. I can't see any reason for the 1941 turbine. — Sebastian 22:22, 31 December 2008 (UTC)    (I am open to changing or amending this vote or statement. If you feel facts changed sufficiently after I posted this, please let me know, as I may not be watching this page.)

Article needs Wind-Harvesting Efficiency Examples

While Betz is discussed as an upper limit on efficiency, one would not expect to have zero wind speed downwind from a wind turbine. 100% efficiency (not achievable) would result in a zero speed downwind from the cross sectional area swept out by the blade. Should we find and add references with data for upwind versus downwind speeds (if known) for various wind turbines? This could be complicated, because approaching wind is approximately laminar, and downwind will have vortices. References, anyone? Want to start a draft section here? Navuoy (talk) 17:24, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't see the utility myself - I'm sure Betz's chain of reasoning started from the (inutitively obvious?) proposition that the air coming in has to go out, so exit velocity can't be zero. Upstream and downstream velocities would be meaningless to the general reader, and would be measured in various ways at various points. What would the numbers actually tell you? "Efficiency", in terms of wind energy theretically available vs. kwh produced, is not signficant economically because you're not paying anything for the wind. There is possibly a second-order effect in terms of the cost of the machinery required to harvest a given number of MWH/year at a site, but this would be small, and to a first approximation all commercial wind turbines will have "effciencies" so close that the differences don't matter to the cost of energy production. Cost of shipping blades is probably more of a determination of energy production cost than the actual efficiency of the turbine. --Wtshymanski (talk) 22:22, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Efficiency is not a major issue for wind turbines. This is in contrast to photovoltaic cells, where efficiencies are low, one of the factors keeping solar PV about 5 to 10 years behind wind power in terms of installed capacity. Even if we had data on wind speeds downwind from wind turbine rotors, adding it to the article would add lots of boring bulk with very little gain in clarity. Lots of data would be necessary as well, because the efficiency of a given wind turbine varies with the wind speed, and the wind speed varies significantly across the vertical extent of a large wind turbine (wind speed increases with height above ground). So you're talking about a dataset with at least three dimensions (nominal wind speed, height above ground, and wind turbine model). About all the reader needs to know is that modern horizontal axis wind turbines are pretty close to their theoretical maximum efficiency already, and a wind farm needs to space its wind turbines fairly far apart (five to ten rotor diameters) so the upwind turbines don't rob too much power from the downwind turbines due to their wind shadow. The biggest issues for wind turbines now are getting sites approved for installation, building transmission lines, dealing with the transient nature of wind, supply chain problems for the manufacturers as they try to ramp up production, and the logistical challenges of moving enormous rotor blades, tower sections, and nacelles. --Teratornis (talk) 09:54, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, your reponses are taken to heart. My ignorance of this subject is the problem. Here is a simpler idea, but first let me give you the basis for the idea and perhaps we can find a solution. From this article, I noticed that the cross sectional area swept out by old farm windmill is almost 100%. The blades cover almost the entire area. Then, if you look, the next level in size shows about 50% coverage in the cross sectional area for the Danish, old-style mills. Then we go on to the modern wind turbines, which have a single blade intersecting a very small area of the disk that would outline its radius. So here is a proposal: Can we find an on-line calculator that gives efficiency in terms of wind spped, radius, pitch, number of blades, etc.? Navuoy (talk) 06:34, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

But this is an encyclopedia, not a textbook on the history of wind turbine design. All that we'd need here is an overview to the effect that many combinations of variables have been tried, and that in the commerically-important megawatt grid-connected turbine sector the 3-blade horizontal machine is the current state of the art for good reasons of adequate "efficiency" and construction cost (preferably backed up by a reference that the more curious reader could follow for the detailed maths). You're never going to find an on-line "efficiency" calculator until you define "efficiency", and to do that you must understand why you'd need to define a concept like "wind turbine efficiency" in the first place. The number of blades uses has little to do with abstract "efficiecy" but instead is dominated by concerns about speed and structural strength. --Wtshymanski (talk) 16:39, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

An encyclopedia of wind energy generation would have this information, and WP can be regarded as a massive union of such encyclopedias. For example, WP also has an in depth explanation of what a Delibird (one of the hundreds of pokemon characters) is. Perhaps the proposed material could be covered not in the main body of the wind turbine article, but a more detailed technical article? -J JMesserly (talk) 19:07, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments. Do you think it is fair to conclude, that in an ideal case, much like the derivation of the gas law, that a solid disk positioned perpendicular to the wind would generate the "Betz Limit" of energy, wherein W=fd is also ideally optimized? If so, then perhaps there is a reference we can find that rates turbine blade efficiencies relative to this so-called "Betz Limit". Navuoy (talk) 21:31, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Your comments above about blade count seem to suggest that you are equating more blades with higher efficiency. The opposite is actually true: modern wind turbines are much more efficient than the old multi-bladed water-pumping windmills (according to the description in File:USDA windmills.jpg). The common intuition that leaving empty space between the blades equates to throwing away energy is misleading. One of the consequences of Betz' law is that adding lots of blades doesn't help, because the additional blades just end up robbing power from each other. (See the Propeller article which discusses the analogous problem of optimizing the blade count on an engine-driven propeller.) As a weak analogy, consider that many earlier airplanes were biplanes, triplanes, or had even more wings. Modern airplanes are monoplanes for the most part. A biplane's second wing only increases lift by about 20% compared to the same wing in monoplane arrangement, according to the biplane article. As far as what Wikipedia can include, Wikipedia is not paper, which means we can go into whatever depth anyone feels like writing (and then defending against deletion). It might be worth pointing out somewhere that modern three-bladed wind turbines have the almost magical ability to extract a large fraction of the available wind power from a huge swept rotor area, without having to fill the whole area with anything solid. (It may help to realize that as each blade slices through the air, it disturbs a large volume of air around it, and if you could see the size of this disturbance, you would see that the rotor disk is not as "empty" as it appears.) This is one reason why commercial wind power is several times cheaper than commercial solar power right now - if you want to collect solar power from a large area, you have to fill the whole area with something (e.g. mirrors, panels, photovoltaic cells, a solar pond, a photobioreactor, etc.), and something costs a lot more than nothing. --Teratornis (talk) 03:03, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Tera, That is very helpful, especially the propeller article. I have been reading the Betz article, and I asked Crowsnest to comment here. I can't get further without finding the book cited in Betz.

I thought the idea with fast props was to approach about 60% of the speed of sound before adding more blades - unless ground clearance is a problem (belly-draggers).

My other thought is that long blades get into higher altitudes and higher winds, so with a v^3 effect, one might get more out of the top than the bottom, on average. Navuoy (talk) 23:35, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

You can see the effect of wind speed increase with height in some photographs of wind turbines in high winds - the blade tips visibly bend farther back when the blades are above the hub than when they are below. This difference in blade loading with height above ground is one reason to use three blades instead of two. With just two blades, there is a bigger periodic twisting load on the hub, when the blades align vertically. The blade pointing straight up generates its maximum bending moment on the hub, at the time when the blade pointing straight down generates its minimum bending moment. With a three-bladed rotor, there are two blades just 30 degrees below horizontal, so you don't have a situation where blades are experiencing maximum wind vs. minimum wind at the same time. Instead there are three height-related surge cycles per rotation, but they aren't as large. --Teratornis (talk) 21:18, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Promotion and Vanity Link Clean-up

From my understanding, what is being described in the "H vertical wind turbine" is a standard giromill. This section was added by someone from aeolius turbine and has repeatedly been linked to their commercial site. Is there any reason that this section should not be deleted?

Reading into the HAWT/VAWT controversy further, there seem to be a lot of suspect additions to this article.

The following seem to be specious:

From HAWT disadvantages:

HAWTs have difficulty operating in near ground, turbulent winds.

-so does any wind turbine. The assertation that VAWTs do not suffer this limitation is a myth.

The following seems to be commercial promotion or original research:

From VAWT descriptions:

Recently, this type of turbine has been advanced by former Russian rocket scientists who claim to have increased the efficiency of the VAWT up to 38%. A company, SRC Vertical Ltd.[2], has been formed, and has begun selling the new turbine.

seems to be promotion.

The Alvin Benesh rotor and the Hamid Rahai rotor improve efficiency with blades shaped to produce significant lift as well as drag.

Doesn't really add anything to the description and seems like a vanity link.

From subsection "special turbines:

Variable pitch wind turbines are another special (yet low-cost) design. Designs such as the Jacobs are said to be inexpensive, highly efficient and usable in DIY-construction.[15]

This seems to be out of context here - variable pitch is the standard speed control technique used in current utility scale turbines.

Let me know if I am off base on any of this. Tspine (talk) 19:15, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Economics of Micro Wind Turbines

I believe reference to this article is appropriate in this section dealing with micro turbine installations http://www.bsdlive.co.uk/story.asp?storycode=3132514&origin=bsdmonthly--81.136.195.82 (talk) 11:11, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

It's nice to believe in things, isn't it? Could you perhaps explain WHY this random Web site is relevant to this encyclopedia article? Perhaps you could summarize the most significant points of the Web site and put it into the article in an appropriate way? --Wtshymanski (talk) 14:35, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

If you'd bothered to read the article (not from a random site but a specialist one on sustainable development) you would see that it is itself a summary of a report from a reputable agency on the economics of microturbines but then it is easy to criticise isn't it. I thought the object of Wikipedia was to improve human knowledge by sharing it? On the other hand why did I bother to contribute?--92.20.118.253 (talk) 21:33, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

There, now, you've explained the relevance of the link. Now if you could just be so kind as to use the information from the site to update the article, you'd be all set. --Wtshymanski (talk) 23:11, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

"H vertical wind turbine" contributions from aeolius88

This section on the "H vertical wind turbine" in which the author is describing a giromill is back. The information, always linking back to shanghai aeolius wind turbine, is not cited and is promotional in nature. When asked for citations, links to the aeolius turbine site are provided; I plan to re-delete this addition to the VAWT section, but do not want to get into an edit war here. Someone with more experience let me know how this type of thing is usually dealt with. Tspine (talk) 18:48, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Anyone want to weigh in on this? I've reverted the inclusion of the aeolius turbine image and some text that was included again. This user clearly has a conflict of interest as I assume they work for Shanghai aeolius wind turbine. This turbine is really nothing new or special and doesn't warrant inclusion in addition to the images of VAWTs that are already in the article. Tspine (talk) 17:24, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Clean up of this talk page

Anyone want to do this :)Tspine (talk) 18:48, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Does anyone care that this page is unmanageably long? I would be happy to archive the discussion except for the last few topics. Tspine (talk) 17:24, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

I have archived the old talk entries to clean up this page. Please use colons instead of blockquote to set your talk entry apart from the previous one. Binksternet (talk) 07:55, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Error in Wikipedia article under Types of wind turbines, Horizontal axis

The article says "Downwind machines have been built, despite the problem of turbulence, because they don't need an additional mechanism for keeping them in line with the wind"

This isn't true. A wind turbine rotor does not behave like a windsock or a parachute. Its aerodynamic action does not have much of a yaw moment component. Wallyflint (talk) 02:16, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that the [skystream 3.7] is built as a downwind machine for this very reason. I don't know how much moment arm you would need to have enough yawing action, but this is likely going to be limited to smaller scale turbines anyway. If you want to change this, give it a tag, then change it if nobody comes up with a citation. The skystream I linked above should demonstrate that there are in fact downwind machines with no additional yaw mechanism. Tspine (talk) 03:23, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Construction of Offshore HAWT

The article noted that the components for HAWT are large & difficult to transport in built up areas. I understand that the construction of offshore HAWT is easier because the components are moved to site by ship, in calm weather of course. I suggest that the article include this point. --DavidJErskine (talk) 11:41, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Upwind vs Downwind HAWT

A subtle advantage of upwind HAWT is that the lopsided weight of the rotor is upwind, so wind pressure on the tower is offset to some extent by the weight of the rotor. For a downwind HAWT the lopsided weight of the rotor adds to the wind pressure on the tower. There is a similar feature in large modern sailing ships; the masts lean sternwards, & this lopsided weight offsets to some extent the pressure of the wind on the mast. --DavidJErskine (talk) 14:00, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Factual errors about wildlife impact

The article states that birds and bats can be killed, but it doesn't say much about the larger birds, such as eagles. They are the ones that are killed by the wind turbines, as seen around in Norway these days. Small birds are usually quick enough for windmills to become a threat Rkarlsba (talk) 14:37, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

This is covered in greater depth on the Environmental effects of wind power page. I have updated the links on birds and bats to be more helpful.Tspine (talk) 04:21, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Strange turbine picture

What is the odd picture of a polish turbine doing at the top of the page. Is this notable? Without some kind of description I am going to assume that it is some kind of promotion and delete it. Tspine (talk) 03:47, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Wind turbine economics under criticisms

I think that some mention of this as a criticism belongs here. Like bird and bat kills, it might not be a valid criticism when compared to the cost of energy production by other means, but this criticism is often brought up so it does bear mentioning here. [This reference] on the financing methods for wind installations in the US makes it pretty clear that the price per kwh of wind is higher than that of natural gas for new installed capacity, but that there are some inherent inequities between the two that make straight up economics a poor predictor of overall cost. This is covered well under the section of [wind energy] that this section linked to. The other complaint you hear is about the amount of subsidy paid for wind energy, and I believe this complaint is somewhat valid as well. The root problem is that the competing technologies have much higher externalities, but that doesn't mean that there is no controversy. Tspine (talk) 03:47, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

HAWT vs VAWT debate

So while Burt.windon's edits were mostly off-base, he has a point about the "disadvantages" of HAWTs as presented on this page. Nearly all of the supposed disadvantages are those of size, not rotor orientation. The HAWT vs. VAWT debate is a little out of hand on this page and is getting more attention than it needs - I am thinking about re-writing this page to put a little less emphasis on this debate, since it is essentially over anyway. Tspine (talk) 17:11, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Claiming that a disadvantage of vertical-axis machines is that some people overstate their effectives is about as bad as claiming that a disadvantage of the internal combustion engine is that some people sell miracle pills that turn water into gasoline. It's not a really central point and need not be remarked on in the article. --Wtshymanski (talk) 13:40, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Health effects

I rolled the section on "wind turbine environmental impacts" under criticisms and tweaked it a little bit. The linked news report source mentions nothing about noise; the only cause for the reported symptoms mentioned in the report is "electrical pollution" measured by David Colling, a consultant. This seems to be a reoccurring criticism so I don't think that it should be deleted or suppressed, but a lot of the sources used are anti-wind groups. The same revert war is being fought on the Environmental impacts of wind turbines page.Tspine (talk) 18:03, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

POV tag

I've added a POV tag to the Criticism section as it is far too negative and unbalanced. For example, Ardrossan Wind Farm locals have found wind turbines to be impressive looking, bring a calming effect to the town and, and "silent workhorses". Black Law Wind Farm has received praise from RSPB for benefitting wildlife. Johnfos (talk) 21:46, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

So balance it! The section is entitled criticisms, and could be a chance to present both sides of all the issues about which individuals criticize turbines. I've tried to take a crack at adding where I think something is dubious rather than just deleting it like seems to be the general tendency. My personal belief is that a lot of the "health effects" are mostly NIMBY stuff, but I don't think we do wind turbines any service by pretending that no criticisms exist. I'm sure that we can find news articles from people who love wind farms just like we can find news articles from individuals who don't like them. By all means, add things to bring this section into balance.Tspine (talk) 22:42, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Done. Rather than trying to re-invent the wheel, I've brought in the lead section from Environmental effects of wind power, per WP:SS. Johnfos (talk) 23:05, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

You basically just wiped out the whole section and replaced it with one on the environmental impacts rather than the criticisms. This is not really equivalent - the discussion of intermittency and economics of the turbines is gone, and doesn't really fit into a section on environmental impacts but does have a place in a discussion about the criticisms of wind power (not unique to turbines necessarily).

I don't like the constant addition of complaints about "noise, flicker, tinitus" or whatever, but maybe if we had something in there to acknowledge and balance these complaints editors would stop adding them. I do not believe that these complaints are much other than an attempt to pathologize wind turbines, since this is often a fruitful avenue in resisting a technology, but having no mention and no refutation seems to be ignoring an often raised concern. In fact this paper would be a good start in refuting this kind of assertion. I do believe that such a section is warranted, as are links to the discussions of intermittency and capacity factor from the main wind energy article. Tspine (talk) 17:24, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to revert your wiping out of that section because I don't think that the current content is at all equivalent to what you have replaced it with. We should be able to work with the existing section to resolve the POV problems without eliminating content. Tspine (talk) 18:21, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

I've worked on this section some to remove uncited, unsupported and POV language without removing valid concerns. Can people chime in on what could be improved? This issue generates some controversy but I think that the criticisms are fairly presented in this section. I welcome any comments.Tspine (talk) 19:05, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Considerable improvements have been made and I've removed the POV tag for this section. Johnfos (talk) 20:11, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Looks like the criticism content has been removed again and replaced with solely an environmental impact section. There are other issues besides environmental ones. A study done by some British company found that aviation primary RADAR systems have difficulty handling windfarms as the constantly rotating turbines cause the RADAR to pick up an intrusive object. There are complex ways of eliminating this problem but at the moment it is being cited by aviation safety organisations that wind farms pose a significant risk to their industry. I would also argue that the title is misleading as the intermittent nature of wind and the economic cost of wind turbines are not environmental issues. --Spuzzdawg (talk) 11:10, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

If you are the one who added the problems with RADAR, add them again and put some references in there. Unreferenced criticisms are hastily deleted on this page. If it is truly a problem, finding some references should be easy. Tspine (talk) 20:38, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Unbalanced tag

Worldwide installed capacity 1996-2008

Wind turbines are a fast-growing technology which is used commercially in 80 countries, and so we might expect that the technology has more advantages than disadvantages. Yet this article has an extensive criticism section, but little on the benefits of the technology. And so the article is one-sided. That is why the Unbalanced tag is at the top of the article. Johnfos (talk) 20:19, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

This article could use a benefits section and comparison of the life cycle impacts of wind vs. other forms of power generation. Wind as a generation technology is inherently and fundamentally different than a conventional fueled power plant as the "fuel" is free. However, many of the avoided costs (CO2 emission, nuclear waste disposal) are still externalized in conventional power plants. This entire article would be improved by being re-structured, which I plan to do once I get the time to do it right. It comes off as a debate between VAWT and HAWT, as if there were even a debate. There is little on how turbines actually work (betz limit, kinetic-shaft work energy conversion, tip speed ratio, speed control techniques, synchronous vs. asynchronous, terrestrial vs. off-shore etc... Anyone know if there is a protocol for sandboxing significant re-writes? Tspine (talk) 21:20, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Possible content

metal tabs

closeup look at the tabs - the larger tabs are closest to the root of the blade (i.e., closest to the hub)

The tabs near the leading edge of the upper surface (more convex surface) of the wind turbine blades appear designed to limit the "lift" of the blade at extreme wind velocities by causing turbulance - but that is purely speculation. They are clearly there for some purpose. Before adding them to the article, they are posted here in hope someone can provide an accurate discussion of their aerodynamic function.

Insights or thoughts? Williamborg (Bill) 15:52, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

All we need is a reference! These tabs don't have anything to do with lightning protection, do they? --Wtshymanski (talk) 02:23, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

____________________________

Pretty confident they'd have nothing to do with lightning protection. They change it size - being large where the cross-section of the blade is larger. One would expect them to be larger where the lightning probability is larger if they served a lightning protection purpose - that is to say, larger near the end of the blades. Although one might postulate that they limit the buildup of static electricity on the blade by corona discharge...

Cheers - Williamborg (Bill) 21:35, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

While researching your comments on lightning, I found an article from Sandia (Johnson, Scott J. (2008). "Active Load Control Techniques for Wind Turbines" (PDF). Sandia National Laboratory. Retrieved 13 September 2009. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)) and incorporated the material plus photos at Wind_turbine_design#Stall. Thanks - Williamborg (Bill) 22:14, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Combined Electricity Pylon/Wind Turbine Concept

I knew it was a good idea! Wind'It will in time be a reality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.254.83.228 (talk) 09:54, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Looks like a hoax to me. How do you dump power from an itty-bitty turbine into a 400 kV transmission line without a step-up transformer? No numbers. No facts. The "project Web site" looks like it's been unchanged since 2007 and the illustration is quite odd looking - where's the generator? Where's the step-up transformer? Those don't look like existing towers, so you must build brand new towers. --Wtshymanski (talk) 21:36, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Oh, I wouldn't say it's a hoax just because of that. Sure, there would have to be new towers and obviously the illustrator left out the step-up transformer and maybe made the generator too small. (Though I suspect a real implementation would only have a transformer on every nth tower with smaller transmission lines linking the ones without.) Their proposal as it stands now may be technically inadequate, but that hardly invalidates the idea. Somebody somewhere will in time build these things for real and if they prove practical and economical, there may in time be millions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.254.87.139 (talk) 05:21, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Image

Can someone take over the picture at http://express.howstuffworks.com/gif/wind-power-horizontal.gif for the construction and design section ? Upload at wikimedia commons and show image here —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.176.215.15 (talk) 10:49, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

No, because it is copyrighted, and belongs to the website... - Adolphus79 (talk) 13:08, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I already took over the image myself, legally. Perhaps that the EERE_Illust_large_image may be imbedded to the image; the image I draw thus being the larger whole, and the with the EERE image as magnification of the head of the turbine (as it contains more info). The large picture has added info as it mentions the nacelle, rotor blades, rotor hub and transformer. See

91.182.191.178 (talk) 17:04, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Article name

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was not moved, per WP:SNOW. Jafeluv (talk) 17:19, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

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Wind turbine → Windturbine — The main name is not in line with the other articles (eg windpump, windmill), I suggest that the name is changed to windturbine (without the space). —Preceding unsigned comment added by KVDP (talk • contribs) 08:40, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose - no need to impose a false "consistency" which does not exist in the English language. Wind turbine has a space, windmill doesn't. Corn oil has a space, cornbread doesn't. No language reform required here. Knepflerle (talk) 12:51, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose - Knepflerle couldn't have said it better... - Adolphus79 (talk) 13:23, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
• 'Oppose of course- where does one see "windturbine" run together? It's "steam turbine", "gas turbine", "hydraulic turbine" - always a space. The Google sniff test is running about 30:1 in favor of "wind turbine" with most of the "windturbine" entires being file names, or URLs. If this was an anon IP submitting the notion, I'd question its good-faith intentions. --Wtshymanski (talk) 16:14, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose neologism. 76.66.196.139 (talk) 03:57, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose. "Wind turbine" is how it is normally written in English. --DAJF (talk) 13:40, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Intro change

A wind turbine is a rotating machine which converts the kinetic energy in wind into mechanical energy. If the mechanical energy is used directly by machinery, such as a pump or grinding stones, the machine is usually called a windmill. If the mechanical energy is instead converted to electricity, the machine is called a wind generator, wind turbine, wind power unit (WPU), wind energy converter (WEC), or aerogenerator.

Change to:

A wind turbine, wind generator, wind turbine, wind power unit (WPU), wind energy converter (WEC), or aerogenerator is a wind energy conversion system in which a electricity generator is imbedded in the device itself.

I'm guessing everyone agrees on the change ? If so, please update the page. KVDP (talk) 14:21, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Please, no. Guess again. Let's not give every synonym in the first line. Let's try to cling to the shreds of English grammar and composition. Let's have simple declarative English sentences in the lead instead of falling down the rabbit-hole of jargon and cant. --Wtshymanski (talk) 16:56, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Statement on bird kills is unfounded

The statement in the section on "HAWT Disadvantages" that they "Kill thousands of birds a year, some of which are rare or endangered.[14]" links to a USA Today article that does not mention specifics of any scientific study, only that "The size of the annual body count — conservatively put at 4,700 birds — is unique to this sprawling, 50-square-mile site in the Diablo Mountains" This is not an adequate reference. Who counted the bird kills? What are the specifics of the study?

I reccommend that this statement be deleted from the article as it does not have an adequate citation, so is unfounded. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.36.209.14 (talk) 03:47, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Or better yet, mention that this is or has been a concern with some designs and placements, and mention that the concern has been either refuted or confirmed (with citation).

Wind Turbines Causing Infrasound

There have been reports of Wind Turbines (probably limited to certain designs) producing infasound at uncomfortable, or possibly unhealthy, levels. The Wikipedia Infrasound article mentions that "Infrasound can also be generated by ... machinery such as ... older designs of down tower wind turbines", however it may go beyond that. Doing an advanced search on AltaVista for "wind turbine" and "low frequency" found 77,700 results for instance. I think at least mentioning this, and the controversy surrounding it, in the main Wind turbine page is in order.

The page mentions "vibration" in a few places, but only in relation to the mechanical effect on the trubine itself. I suggest dropping "and vibration" from the "Cyclic stresses and vibration" section title as that section does not discuss vibration directly, and creating a new section "Noise, Vibration, and Infasound" that briefly goes into those issues in relation to their effect on the surrounding area/environment, physiology, and how those issues are now shaping regulations with respect to Wind turbine design, placement, noise, and wind turbine setback from dwellings. Such a section could include a summation of some of the information and citations at http://science.howstuffworks.com/wind-turbines-health.htm/printable

The old Wikipedia Wind microturbine page, which now redirects to the main Wind turbine page, had "Wind Turbine Syndrome is a clinical phenomenon first coined by Nina Pierpont. According to her research, some people, when living in close proximity to horizontal axis industrial wind turbines, are affected by low-frequency vibrations emanating from the turbine." It could be noted that VAWT [Vertical-axis wind turbines that have the main rotor shaft arranged vertically] do not lend themselves to this effect as they do not rotate faster than wind speed if that is true.

You know what to do. Toddle down to your public library, get a look at the top 10 books on the subject, summarize their arguements, and put 'em up here complete with page numbers and ISBN numbers. --Wtshymanski (talk) 13:32, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Documentation about the phenomena may be too new for the local library. It may be in reports and papers submitted to forums like the International Conferences on Wind Turbine Noise. See http://www.windturbinenoise2009.org/.