Talk:Charles K. Kao

Kao's Alma mater

Kao received BSc and PhD both from University London (more precisely, @ the University of London External System). However, nowadays, few would say "my alma mater is University London External System". Normally biographies trace back to alumni's constitutional colleges.

Such as in the case of this article, Kao's PhD education was from the University College London, though he was an external student (the University of London External System) when working during that time and his PhD diploma was granted by generally the University of London.

So, follow the same illustration, Kao's undergraduate alma mater is more appropriate to write as the Woolwich Polytechnic or the current University of Greenwich, though Kao's BSc diploma was also granted by generally the University of London.

In fact in these cases, "alma mater University of London" or "alma mater University of London External System" has much less sense than actual colleges.

Please also see Kao's own biography also in Simplified Chinese version (assisted by my colleague):

• [1]
  • "在和域治理工学院的整整四年间，除了上课、做实验，就是与同学交往，参与体育运动，特别是乒乓球和网球。此外，我也经常为中国同学组织大型的中式聚餐，和为理工学院和伦大学生会举办社交舞会。"
• [2]
  • "对于错失的机会，我绝少会用“遗憾”来形容。在和域治理工学院完成首年预科课程后，我本来可以报读我心目中理想的大学。因为喜爱科学，我坚持在高级程度考试中报考四个理科科目，就是数学、应用数学、物理和化学，以这几个科目的成绩，进入伦大任何一家比较著名的学院应不成问题。但我不知道要进入这几家学院要另行申请，我只是随遇而安，继续留在和域治。我没有后悔错失进入“名校”的机会，在理工学院，我和教师的关系更为密切，与他们有更多直接交流，获益良多。"
• [3]
  • "不久，我的上司提议我一边在实验所工作，一边读个博士学位。伦敦大学大学学院的巴洛教授（Prof Barlow）是微波研究的先锋，后来亲自督导这方面的研究。我定的课题是“类光学波导”（Quasi-Optical W*eguides），目的是深入了解在封闭及开放式波导系统中自由空间传播及波导传播的现象。在封闭式波导系统中，讯息波在一个密封的金属罩中传导，而在开放式波导系统中，讯息波由电介质传导，因此电磁场不受金属管道限制。有关的研究，以类光学方式通过一个右弯的特大长方形波导管模型进行，让我有充裕的空间探索微波和光波在通讯中的功用。"

We hope those HongKongers are clear about this point. (Alice Muller (talk) 03:22, 5 March 2010 (UTC))

• since the Imperial left London University system became independent, and many constituent colleges have started awarding their own degrees. Nowadays if say <my PhD is from University of London> sounds like <my PhD is from University of California> - but from which school exactly??? (as we all know there are University of California,: Berkeley, Riverside, LA, SD, SF, ... etc.) (Alex Kuper (talk) 03:55, 5 March 2010 (UTC))

• • Thank you Alice for clearing this up. Although I can't read simplified Chinese characters.

• • • Alex Kuper, I'm sure you know that the University of London consists of a group of federated colleges (i.e. LSE, UCL, King's College, Queen Mary etc) and they can all award the University of London degree although students also have a choice now (after 2007/08) to receive a degree from their constituent college. Students who studied internally would normally list the college they studied at (i.e. BSc LSE) for the sake of clarity and possibly prestige? But what I referred to earlier on was Woolwich Polytehnic, which at that time didn't even grant their own award so I don't see why University of London should be left out as Kao's alma mater. But now things are cleared up. 116.48.94.210 (talk) 04:35, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Flag templates

The flag templates (such as United Kingdom and United States) have been deployed in many Wikipedia articles, particularly in the infoboxes. Those flag templates are good for indicating the nationality and the place of birth of the person to which the article pertains. I think these templates should stay in the infobox in this article. I just don't understand why some Wikipedians delete the contributions of others immediately and repeatedly without even discussing about that on the talk page. I see this massive, repetitive deletion as a form of vandalism. Please stop that. - Alan (talk) 14:14, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Read the not at Wikipedia:Manual of Style (icons)#Flags. Matthew_hk tc 14:17, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Comments

Charles kao was once Vice President. He was named executive scientist. He established the electronics department and won a Draper prize for engineering. Kao published a paper on Fibre optics which won him a prize. He joined an ITT lab in London to help with his career.

Hong Kong

Kao has the citizenship of Hong Kong SAR. (Alex Needham (talk) 13:35, 6 October 2009 (UTC))

No, no dual nationality in China and those who have foreign nationality means they lost the nationality and cannot naturalized as Chinese again. Matthew_hk tc 14:15, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

HKSAR recognizes dual nationality because of one country and two systems. 203.218.20.125 (talk) 15:02, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

The mainland constitution cannot be applied the same in HK. Personally I think HKSAR recognizes dual or multiple nationality. Laws of 1 country 2 systems have the explanation, I think ... (Notethere2009 (talk) 16:05, 6 October 2009 (UTC))

permanent residence in HK is different with nationality. Acquire foreign nationality = renounce Chinese nationality, and "restore" Chinese nationality need renounce foreign nationality. No source Kao did and only stupid will renounce unless he have strong interest in Chinese nationality for a place in central government. [4] 123.202.57.244 (talk) 15:19, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

It's also right, quite depending on the understanding of a "citizenship" itself (Notethere2009 (talk) 16:01, 6 October 2009 (UTC))

It's really much better that Kao is able to clearify this. Chinese (incl. HK, Macao) laws and regulations are too subtle and complicated. Who the hell really know what inside is. We are all laypeople watching outside. (Notethere2009 (talk) 16:08, 6 October 2009 (UTC))

I noticed that at the first moment of announcement, it was indicated as China & UK, as Kao's nationality, on the official website of Nobelprize.org. (Notethere2009 (talk) 16:09, 6 October 2009 (UTC))

Hong Kong and Macao citizens are allowed to hold duel- or multi-nationality. (Speakdriveyou (talk) 18:22, 6 October 2009 (UTC))

(Alex Needham (talk) 16:18, 6 October 2009 (UTC)) many (ranked very high) political candidates in Hong Kong before their governmental installation, they have to drop their foreign nationality (such as Canadian citizenship, btw, many Hong Kongers have CA citizenship), and even declare: I already renounced foreign citizenship, blabla, just like this. So at least highly-ranked governmental officials they own sole nationality.

I also saw at very beginning the Nobel Prize in Physics homepage showed that Kao's nationality was "China and UK". But later the laureates' nationality was all vanished. It's also possible that Kao has three nationalities. Anyway, sometimes the nationality problem is kinda complicated, like the chemist Osamu Shimomura in 2008. There isn't anyone whom can be really blamed.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Alex Needham (talk • contribs) 16:39, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

As it was removed from the source soon after it was published, it probably shouldn't be included in the article unless other reliable sources can be found (and if amy are found, maybe it should also be discussed on the talk page first). If the relevant Wikipedia articles are correct (which is possible, although there are no sources in any of them) dual nationality is not recognised in China but that doesn't mean it isn't recognised in the rest of the world. snigbrook (talk) 22:38, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

End the story please, Mr. Nobel already told us more than 100yr ago, nationality is not important, is not considered! (Allowrocks2003040957 (talk) 20:26, 6 October 2009 (UTC))

According ROC law, he may have ROC nationality but no one use their passport. 123.202.57.244 (talk) 10:51, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

About British nationality, there is little restriction to in the past for the citizen of the colonies. It is movement inside the Empire and not immigration to another nation. But after the new act, seems he need to pass some criteria to acquire British citizens (BC). He may not holds British nationality but in the past he have. 123.202.57.244 (talk) 12:24, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Or he acquired through marriage. 123.202.57.244 (talk) 12:26, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Is that possible Kao also has Taiwan citizenship? My reason is he's also a member but not a FOREIGN MEMBER of Academia Sinica. If so, he would have four citizenships: USA, UK, HK, TW. (O0'''lien (talk) 21:26, 7 October 2009 (UTC))

The Constitution Law of ROC recently changed to only excise in Taiwan and ROC controlled islands. Kao may have ROC nationality before 1948, or until Taiwan kicked off from UN in 1970s. There is no such Hong Kong nationality, as part of PRC, and he is the foreign member of Chinese Academy of Sciences. Matthew_hk tc 12:20, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

I think Alex is right, when you mention 'citizenship' like 'Kao has Hong Kong citizenship', it's also quite approperiate; but when you mention 'nationality' then it's wrong. A citizenship=/=nationality, just like there's 'honorary citizen/citizenship', there's nearly no honorary 'nationality'. (LimoMoMoLg (talk) 13:35, 23 October 2009 (UTC))

Kao Hong Kong citizenship cannot be verified, it is because he may lost his permanent residence if he 1. he has foreign nationality and 2. not reside in hong kong for 3 years continuously. non-permanent residence cannot be elected or elect people. and lstly there is no such Hong Kong citizenship but permanent residence rights Matthew_hk tc 23:04, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Alumni of the University of Greenwich

Why is he in that category? --Duncan (talk) 18:04, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

The university claim he is the alumni. Woolwich Polytechnic (now University of Greenwich) in 1957,University of Greenwich Alumni A-L, accessed 23 July 2009

Nobel Prize use University of London, as Imperial College London is a former member. Matthew_hk tc 11:05, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Matthew_hk: Please stop vandalising. Get your facts right! Charles Kao is an alumni of Woolwich Polytechnic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.232.14.128 (talk) 13:04, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

I can found tons of source, Nobel prize web site, CUHK website, Reuters. Matthew_hk tc 13:07, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Most sources point to the University of London, which itself is a questionable fact (depends on whether at that point of time Woolwich Polytechnic was a part of the federation). So PLEASE stop vandalising the page and put in FACTS. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.232.14.128 (talk) 13:13, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Would Woolwich Polytechnic able to grant degree and/or the academic program is jointly-held by the two schools or he just take some credits? Unless have a reliable source to explain, please leave him in Imperial College London as it is the most common, most source to support. Matthew_hk tc 13:53, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Please see Polytechnic_(United_Kingdom) for a description of Polytechnics. And I am afraid you are the one providing facts without support (in my last edition I provided two references). Again, I request that you stop vandalising the page and get your facts right. You are a shame to the community. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.232.14.128 (talk) 14:00, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

As far as I can determine, he did his first degree at Woolwich Polytechnic and his PhD at Imperial College. Only the latter is mentioned by the Nobel website. I would ignore the University of London issue entirely, it's an umbrella organisation for the many higher education institutions in London and it doesn't do very much.Edsegal (talk) 15:44, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Woolwich Polytechnic was not allowed to issue it's own degrees so all students would have taken external degrees - most likely an external University of London Degree [5]. Imperial College was part of the University of London up until July 2007 [6]. Up until this point all of it's degrees would also have been issued by the University of London. Thus, Charles' PhD would have been a University of London PhD, although he would have also been given a DIC Diploma of Imperial College. Brendan28 (talk) 20:50, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

According to MeantimeAlumni (a magazine for the alumni of the University of Greenwich) he attended Woolwich Polytechnic as an internal student of the University of London, although Woolwich doesn't appear to have been part of the University (it wasn't in 1965[7] but was closely associated with it). The definition of "alumni" can be used in different ways, so both versions appear to be correct. snigbrook (talk) 21:46, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Just to be clear, I work in the Inmperial College Alumni Department and Charles Kao did not complete his PhD here, but at UCL. He did hold a visiting professorship here, which is probably where the confusion is arising from. For a source I recommend contacting the UCL alumni depatment, who will be able to verify whether he is an alumni of that college. Hope this is helpful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.198.220.139 (talk) 09:07, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Nobel Foundation said PHD at Imperial College. Matthew_hk tc 12:58, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

In fact it's a quite simple fact but complicated history. Kao did work at Imperial College (at that time a college of the University of London) but the degree was issued by the University of London. Imperial College got independent (became an independent entity/university) on 8 July 2007, from then on, the Imperial College issues its own degrees (but at Kao's time, the degree issuing system is generally "[the degree name] of London"). The Nobel Prize Foundation is correct. (TechnoOptics (talk) 13:20, 9 October 2009 (UTC))

The University of London is a very loose "conglomerate", actually it's colleges implement enducation/teaching/research. In the old time, diplomas were normally issued bearing or under the name of the University of London, later (for a short period of time), graduates could choose "college diploma" (issued by his/her collge) or "university dilpoma" (issued by the Univeristy of London, generally), nevertheless now colleges such as University College London issues its own degrees. The Imperial College London got independent from the University of London System on July 8 2007, and now issues its own diplomas. The University of London System is little bit similar to the University of California System, personally think (TechnoOptics (talk) 13:41, 9 October 2009 (UTC))

Read the ip user from Imperial College said he may complete his PHD at University College London (UCL), another university institution of University of London. Matthew_hk tc 13:37, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Is that anonymous paragraph a solid evidence? We should first cite the source from the Nobel Committee, personally think. And during the old time, the Imperial College held the major of engineering faculty in the University of London System, the electrical engineering was quite Imperial College's stuff, personally think, though I did not do electrical engineering (TechnoOptics (talk) 13:44, 9 October 2009 (UTC))

The Guardian says: "Kao, who gained a PhD from Imperial College and became vice-chancellor of the Chinese University of Hong Kong, said: "I am absolutely speechless and never expected such an honour." (TechnoOptics (talk) 13:56, 9 October 2009 (UTC))

The Sun reports: Kao, who holds both British and American citizenship, was born in Shanghai in 1933, went to school in Hongkong and gained his PhD in electrical engineering from Imperial College, London. (TechnoOptics (talk) 13:58, 9 October 2009 (UTC))

Anyway, at that time, the degree was issued by the University of London in general. (TechnoOptics (talk) 14:02, 9 October 2009 (UTC))

Simply send e-mail to Imperial College, UCL and University of London, say we are wikipedia/wikinews editor. Matthew_hk tc 19:35, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Nobel Prize committe officially said he did his PhD at Imperial.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.144.37.164 (talk) 19:56, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Short of a formal statement by either Kao or Imperial, should this article really claim that the Nobel committee got his PhD institution wrong? (What's surprising is that, unlike Greenwich neither IC nor UCL have issued a press release saying "congratulations to our former student...") Djr32 (talk) 21:06, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Such confusion! The Nobel press release cited now states only that Kao got his degree from the University of London. However, the Google cache records the page as showing he got the degree from Imperial. So we can conclude that the Nobel people got it wrong and have now quietly fixed their error. In any case, there is now no basis for the Imperial link, and I have corrected it. Willbown (talk) 21:26, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

The history of the university and its colleges is complicated, the life of the laureate is complicated, ... (Erfrfdfsfv (talk) 12:37, 17 October 2009 (UTC))

Sorry for anonymous posting but I just questioned the Provost at UCL on his claim that Charles Kuen Kao completed "a PhD at UCL under the supervision of Prof Harold Barlow, though his exact status remains unclear: it appears that he may have been an external student" and he replied, "Wikipedia have it wrong, and Imperial do not claim him as an alumnus. Malcolm Grant". Huw —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.40.255.6 (talk) 10:08, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

yes his own autobiography also said Kao lead the research team after his mentor left, but no college is mentioned. Matthew_hk tc 13:21, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

No, in his autobio it mentions that Kao enrolled and obtained his PhD from University College London, under Prof Barlow [8]. This can be proved by UCL official facts and figures [9] Scholarship section. it's amazing that anonymous editor from Belgium (accord. to ip) was absolutely correct! (Allowrocks2003040957 (talk) 18:57, 9 November 2009 (UTC))

People keep switching back to Woolwich Polytechnic which does not make sense. He may have attended that institution and be classified as an alumni, but his degree was conferred by the University of London. The infobox category states "Alma Mater" which by definition means "where one earned one's first degree or doctorate, or both". And since Woolwich at the time did not issue their own degrees which does not fit into that category. Professor Kao then got his PhD from UCL, a federated college and still part of the University of London. Source 1; Source 2; Source 3 116.48.92.222 (talk) 01:22, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Honorary Title

From the source [10] Honorary Professors Professor KAO, Charles Kuen (高錕教授) CBE; BSc, PhD(Lond.); DSc(CUHK); DSc(Sus.); Doctorate(Soka); DEng(Glas.); DSc(Durh.); DUniv(Griff.); DTE(Padova); DSc(Hull.); DSc(Yale); FEng; FRS; FIEEE; FIEE; FHKIE; FNAE; Academican, Chinese Acad. of Sc.; Academician, Academia Scinica, Taipei

Matthew_hk tc 14:15, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Protection

Could we drop the protection as soon as the edit war is over? We're loosing out on a lot of improvement by having it protected now. --Apoc2400 (talk) 15:51, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

I second the motion. For example, the article states that he was born "in 4 November...". One is born on a date, not in a date. He was born "on 4 November..."Writtenright (talk) 16:40, 6 October 2009 (UTC)writtenright

Some citations are still needed. Who can release the strict protection?? (Allowrocks2003040957 (talk) 16:55, 6 October 2009 (UTC))

Also "Kao Kuen" is neither the Mandarin nor Cantonese pronunciation of his name. Its current location after the Hanji implies that it is one or the other. 74.101.177.155 (talk) 17:00, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Could be directly translated from Shanghainese dialect or dialects of Jiangsu/Zhejiang, 'coz Jinshan is just next to Zhejiang nowsadays. (Speakdriveyou (talk) 18:25, 6 October 2009 (UTC))

I would be happy to unprotect the article, if we can figure out a way to avoid edit wars. I'd suggest that everyone follow the one-revert rule. Sound good? kmccoy (talk) 22:27, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Probably, a full protection till the 8^th October would be too long, I mean the duration. Is there any Administrator can pay a little bit attention on this? (Buhuzu (talk) 22:43, 6 October 2009 (UTC))

According to Wikipedia:Protection policy#Content disputes protection is probably not necessary, as there were only three users edit warring; one is currently blocked, one has been warned, and the other appears to have stopped so the protection should probably be removed, particularly as the article is related to a current event and is linked on the main page. snigbrook (talk) 22:58, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

No one is even willing to respond to what I said? kmccoy (talk) 23:15, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to unprotect the article, in hopes that people will figure out a way to edit calmly and towards compromise. People who insist on simply reverting content they don't like, rather than attempting to find middle ground, may find themselves warned and then blocked for edit warring, regardless of whether they've violated the three-revert rule. Please try to improve rather than battle. :) Thanks. kmccoy (talk) 23:22, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Kao's family

Some materials about Kao's family, from Jinshan, Shanghai.

Kao was born in a big family in Chang-Yan Village (Zhangyan Village, 張堰鎮) of Jinshan, Shanghai. His grandfather was Kao Choi-Wan (Gao Chuiwan, 高吹萬), a famous poet, revolutionary, literator, and was a key figure of Nan Society (South Society, 南社) in late Qing Dynasty.

His father's uncle was astronomer Ping-Tse Kao (高平子, Kao Crater is named after him).

The famous writer Kao Hsu (Gao Xu, 高旭) was also from his extended family.

His father KAO Chun Hsiang (C.H.Kao; 高君湘 in Chinese characters) was a lawyer once for the international court in Shanghai. C.H.Kao was trained in the United States. He obtained his J.D. law degree from the University of Michigan School of Law in 1925, today the School still keeps corresponding archives such as: Alphabetical List with Year of Law School Graduates. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 0149784rr (talk • contribs) 13:39, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

C.H.Kao was the third son of his core family. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 0149784rr (talk • contribs) 13:47, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

The "source" of family is simply a copy and shortened version of Chinese wikipedia. Matthew_hk tc 19:18, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

If you followed the timing tightly, you could find out the detailed info of Kao's family first appeared here. The Chinese wiki translated from the English wiki, primarily, from this discussion section here :D (Big0Tree (talk) 19:42, 7 October 2009 (UTC))

The "source" is not reliable, which 入学前，父亲聘请老师回家，教导高锟和高铻，诵读四书五经。10岁，高锟就读世界学校（即今日的国际学校），需要读中文之外，也要读英文和法文，学校聘请留法的学者回来教授，高锟开始接触中国之外的人事文化，他说：“影响很大！”。 added to Chinese wikipedia in March 2009 [11] without citation, and the news (入学前....“影响很大！), now with 50+ google hit in different site all look like a copy of Chinese wiki, cannot verify his father and brother name. It may be true his father is a lawyer but need a better citation. Matthew_hk tc 19:55, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

I found an article in Chinese, 高吹万 is 高平子 uncle, which means Charles's father is 高平子 cousin. Matthew_hk tc 20:19, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

高吹萬 = 高燮, his brother 高煌 is the father of 高平子, himself is a Jǔrén 舉人. Matthew_hk tc 20:25, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Another 高吹萬 nephew is 姚光 Yao Guang, a historian, revolutionary, writer. Matthew_hk tc 20:37, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Photos

I just got permission for two photos of Kao. I recommend the the first one, but here are cropped versions of both.

Check out the uncropped versions if anyone wants to do a better crop or do something about the red eyes. OTRS confirmation is pending. --Apoc2400 (talk) 22:35, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

I removed the editprotected template. The article is now unprotected and you can make these edits yourself. kmccoy (talk) 23:31, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

English Fluency

Can anyone who is fluent in the English language rewrite this article so that it is not so linguistically roughhewn? It is very difficult to read a scientific article in children's English... Stevenmitchell (talk) 13:36, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

I guess pretty much Hong Kong style - an important style of English language. (Untilwhen2 (talk) 16:17, 9 October 2009 (UTC))

I will attempt to do some editing work on it - but I may also end up relocating some information within the article to improve readability. But I have no intent to alter any information, so don't react too quickly if you can't find something. Riverpa (talk) 15:11, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

I think most part of the article is in fluent English, especially the scientific background is quite good. (3249374587BigGo (talk) 21:21, 10 October 2009 (UTC))

Thanks! Riverpa (talk) 18:29, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Research

He did research in US and HK, non of them notable?! Matthew_hk tc 20:36, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

For example searching US Patent. [12] Matthew_hk tc 20:45, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Kao has at least 29 patents. —Preceding unsigned comment added by LimoMoMoLg (talk • contribs) 13:36, 23 October 2009 (UTC)