Talk:Bernadette Soubirous

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• /Archive 1: start of page – Apr 2006.

NPOV

Does not have a NOPV. Someone could place a sign telling this... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.96.212.186 (talk) 22:08, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Evident, for example in the sentence: Three years later in 1928, Doctor Comte published a report on the exhumation of the Blessed Bernadette in the second issue of the Bulletin de I'Association medicale de Notre-Dame de Lourdes. The blessed Bernadette should either be in quotes, as in an appellative given to her and not as a statement or it should not say blessed, as the article should not make a statement on her presumed sanctity. 87.194.35.234 (talk) 13:13, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Miraculous Medal

Bernadette didn't own a real miraculous medal, but a combined medal (they are not unusual) with the Immaculate Conception (as on the Miraculous Medal) on one side and St. Teresa of Avila on the other. 83.181.65.218 22:34, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I used to have one of those. It had a profile of Mary's face looking down and the reverse side was the Sacred Heart. Interesting that hers had Teresa on it, famous for pragmatic advice for how to handle visions and manifestations. Bernadette wouldn't have known about that at the time though. --Bluejay Young 04:06, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

May rework

I am hoping to remove the NPoV tag. any comments? Dominick ^(TALK) 20:40, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

OK hearing nothing about it, I will start work. Dominick ^(TALK) 11:12, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, dominick. Speaking frankly, I have had it with the pseudo-skeptical remarks being inserted into this article. They do not serve to make the article more NPOV -- rather, they interrupt the flow of the narrative. There are ways to report what happened, and what was said to have happened, without resorting to "This could have happened for natural reasons" and the extraneous links to Ms. Shack's ill-worded articles, which are based largely on original research and her own speculation. I've done my fair share of that when I was disturbed about a subject, and I try not to handle articles like that on wikipedia any more if I can't keep my emotions out of it. I'm coming very close to going on another hiatus from this article if something can't be done. --Bluejay Young 07:42, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I think we are making progress. Please keep on trucking! Dominick ^(TALK) 17:01, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

The number of times that words such as "claimed" and "supposed[ly]" occur in this article I find frankly comical - especially as the article doesn't allude to any authorities that have undermined the trustworthiness of the alleged apparitions. It's perfectly reasonable to describe the apparitions as resting upon the uncorroborated testimony of one illiterate peasant girl - surely we don't need to be reminded of the fact in every sentence. (If it's necessary for Wikipedia articles to be written so that any sentence can be lifted out of context and used without ambiguity, then the resulting text is going to make bizarre reading.)

I tend to agree. In an attempt to prove NPOV it becomes pedantic and even weasel in it's method. The Encyclopedia Britannica does not resort to such qualifications, leaving it to the reader to believe or not. "> Saint Bernadette of LourdesGoldenMeadows 11:37, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I also agree. I hope someone acts on this. The article in its current state is embarrassing. If no one does something about out in the next month or two I may come back and do it. ETom67 04:29, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I have made an attempt to redress the skeptical nature you allude to whilst remaining unbiased. I hope I have succeeded. If it isn't upto standard feel free to revert RoyalBlueStuey 07:55, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Shack doesn't use talk pages

Shack doesn't use talk pages. I wish I knew why. Dominick ^(TALK) 18:57, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Is there some kind of warning we can place on her Talk page? MamaGeek Joy 18:59, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

like what, play nice? Dominick ^(TALK) 19:00, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I found a civility warning template, and placed it on her Talk page. I sincerely hope that she will participate in discussions of the article in the interest of furthering the Wikipedia philosophy of non-original research and NPOV articles. MamaGeek Joy 19:19, 24 May 2006 (UTC)this is so wonderful

Mediation

I left a 3RR warning on her talk page last night. This morning, her changes were back, including a dead link which I specifically warned her not to re-enter. I have submitted the entire affair to mediation. I think it is alright for other users to add to this form. --Bluejay Young 03:25, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Date discrepancy?

Was Bernadette 14 or 17 when she had her first vision? If she was born in 1841 and the first vision was in 1858, she should have been 16 or 17; however, the article says that she was 14. Is her age at the time a typo?

Ron G., sgore@awesomenet.net

It was not a typo, but an edit, possible vandalism, by the now banned user, user:Dark-hooded smoker. Thank you for drawing my attention to this misinformation which I have now corrected thanks to your perceptiveness--File Éireann 20:03, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps interesting to watch

http://www.nationalgeographic.co.in/watch/program_details.aspx?id_program=4461 Shinobu 21:07, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Werfel "facts"

Whoever is editing this article to insert material from Werfel's book is hereby requested to stop it. Werfel's book is not a biography or a documentary, it is hagiographic fiction. Vauzous was not Bernadette's school teacher, for instance. You've inserted this material several times (comments like "at sixteen the ailing child was very beautiful" are direct quotes from the book). Let's try to keep this article sticking to the facts only. --Bluejay Young 11:12, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Marie-Bernard?

My understanding is that Bernadette's name at birth was "Marie-Bernard", and "Bernadette" is only a diminutive of this name (a soubriquet). However, she was so widely known as Bernadette that it became accepted as her name. Can anyone confirm this? (I do know that when she took the veil, her name became Soeur Marie-Bernard). Preacherdoc 00:50, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

According to Oliver Todd's The Lourdes Pilgrim (Chelmsford: Matthew James Publishing, 1997) she was baptised as Marie-Bernarde but always known as Bernadette. Benbristol, 14:23, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Also, in addition to the above, the article has her named as St Bernadette Soubirous. This is wrong. She is Bernadette Soubirous, sure, but St Bernadette of Lourdes. Benbristol, 14:25, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Background

In her excellent, well-researched book Lourdes: Body and Spirit in the Secular Age, the author Ruth Harris describes several events which echo the accepted Bernadette narrative. Until I read it, I was unaware that, in the decades before Bernadette's visions, several illiterate peasant children (usually girls) claimed to see the Virgin Mary in visions in remote countryside (typically clefts or caves in rocks) all along the Pyrenean border between France and Spain (sometimes on the Spanish or Basque side). After investigation, all were discredited. However, Harris points out that Bernadette's visions, rather than being unique and unprecedented, took place against the backdrop of a cultural ethos which supported (perhaps even expected) such events.

Although Bernadette herself claimed to shy away from the publicity which her visions brought, there is no doubting the benefit (in money and status) it brought to her penniless family. It might be reasonable to include some remarks along these lines in the article. Preacherdoc 01:05, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh yeah, those visions were well known. Werfel and, I think, Zola, both mention them in their books. However unless there's actual documentation that Bernadette's family profited directly from the visions, we can't put that in, it would be speculation. What you can say, if you feel there is need for it, is that the entire area profited, of course, the visions attracted visitors who increased economic prosperity. But this might be more appropriate in an article on Lourdes itself, not on Bernadette or her lady. --Bluejay Young (talk) 21:11, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

17 or 18?

I've seen in some places that she had 17 visions of the Virgin Mary, other places (in the seeming majority) have claimed 18. So, what I want to know is: which one is it? Elemento 16:33, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps she made it all up and it was none? Albatross2147 (talk) 02:28, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Eighteen according to Abbe Trochu, I'd go with him. --Bluejay Young (talk) 21:05, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism

The article appears to have been vandalised. I do not have the time or knowledge to fix. Can someone attend to the issues under Visions etc? Albatross2147 (talk) 22:28, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Miracle? - pov tag

Joe Nickell casts doubts about the authenticity of the incorruptible claims on page 92 of Looking for a miracle. I am tagging the section. —Cesar Tort 22:34, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Please, not this again. We've been all through this. A lot of hard work has been done on that section. Cesar, please check the archived discussions here and at Our Lady of Lourdes. Tag removed. --Bluejay Young (talk) 19:01, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Bluejay, in spite of all the "hard work" being done on this subject, the Bernadette article *itself* casts doubt on the incorruptible claim under the 'Exhumations' section where it references the wax face and hand masks that are used to disguise the black tinge of body and sunken eyes and nose. The Wikipedia article on 'Incorruptibility' informs us that "As of yet, none of these cases have been verified scientifically." That article also contains photos of allegedly incorruptible corpses which would be right at home in a Hollywood horror movie! There is no such thing as "a little bit incorruptible". Either it IS or ISN'T. The real world is full of (non-saintly) corpses that have been both naturally and artificially partially mummified. Simply proclaiming that black = white, no matter how many times, in no matter how exasperated a tone of voice, does not make it so. -William Malmstrom 24.160.81.4 (talk) 00:58, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

"There is no such thing as "a little bit incorruptible". Either it IS or ISN'T."

Except there, kind of, is. 'Incorrupt' means 'not rotted' basically. There are

-corpses that weren't artificially embalmed, but are nonetheless not rotted away. These may be mummified looking, etc.

-the full on, odor of sanctity, looking like when they were alive, ones. These are the controversial ones.

But both can be, and have been, called incorrupt. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.91.175.24 (talk) 12:22, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

oops, sorry forgot to sign.

Also, depending on who's talking, saying a holy person is incorrupt doesn't necessarily mean that one believes it's a literal miracle. One does find statements from Catholic sources saying things like "quite astounding" but "not necessarily miraculous". It can be symbolically significant even if it is not beyond the laws of nature. 165.91.175.24 (talk) 12:32, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Immaculate Conception Timeline

According to the Wikipedia, the doctrine of immaculate conception kicked off about 900 and Feast of the Immaculate Conception began in 1476. The statement that Bernadette wouldn't have heard about immaculate conception because it only became official doctrine four years earlier seems a bit misleading. [John Macossay] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.174.43.195 (talk) 18:21, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Lourdes visits, 2008

Reference to the number of visitors in 2008 should be updated with actual figures if available. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.131.182.250 (talk) 15:45, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Number of visions

The intro says she had 18 visions, but the text only describes 16. Does anyone know the answer?

Sardaka (talk) 11:21, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Herb vs. Grass

The use of the term "herb" referring to her eating grass is likely an error in translation. The quote from the French Wikipedia page is: "Vous mangerez de cette herbe qui est là." In French, herbe means grass as well as the English term herb. If she's eating grass as the English page currently states, the term herbe should consistently translated as grass, not as herb.