Talk:List of Israeli assassinations

I have removed the citation tag from the top of this article since most assassinations now have a ref. Joshdboz (talk) 13:33, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Gerald Bull

What about Gerald Bull? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Bull —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.119.2.126 (talk) 19:51, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Added today. Tiamut^talk 19:54, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

But unfortunately, deleted twice now [1] by Vrubel's Demons. Could we please acknowledge that while the source you found (Vrubel) says "allegedly", two other sources cited in the article use either no qualification or say that it is "well-known" though "officially denied"? I still think he should be included here. Perhaps the best wording would be the mid-point one? (well known but officially denied). Thoughts? Tiamut^talk 21:40, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Then rename the article to "List of alleged Israeli assassinations". Демоны Врубеля/Vrubel's Demons (talk) 21:43, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

"Alleged" is a WP:WEASEL word. I won't support that rename. Tiamut^talk 21:55, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

POV Tag.

Article lacks reasoning for targeted killing and additional input on other possible suspects. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 17:46, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Er, it's a LIST, not an article about the policy per se. And in any event the intro already says "as a response to ..". And finally, be careful what you wish for - someone may come along and insert claims that the reason why Israel engages in this sort of activity is because it's a vicious, terrorist state that operates outside the boundaries of international law. Apologies for "stalking" btw. --Nickhh (talk) 18:06, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

The barely noticeable disclaimer does not make the article neutral and there should be some addition of the mentioned input before we can call this article neutral.

Is there a good reason to exclude the information I mentioned? Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 22:38, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I gave at least two just now - 1) it is a list of events, not a debate about the rights and wrongs of the activity; 2) the information is already there in the lead in any event (I can see it, even if you had difficulty noticing it). Putting in even more detail on how and why Israel justifies or explains these acts will of course not make the article neutral; quite the contrary, it will make it a one-sided apologia. The List of Hamas suicide attacks page doesn't kick off with the claim that they are carried out in response to Israeli aggression and occupation, nor do I see anyone suggesting that it should. --Nickhh (talk) 23:03, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm thinking we should turn the list into a category rather than a List article. Thoughts? Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 23:14, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Disagree about turning into cat and disagree about neutrality tag or accusation of POV. A) It's a list B) It's merely a list. If you would like to deepen the discussion, the place for that is a 'main article' to this list. A very legitimate article.--Shuki (talk) 23:24, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Link? Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 10:28, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi Jaakobou, I'll try to answer your concerns. Article lacks reasoning for targeted killing. Somewhat true, I guess since this is simply a list of assassinations, not an article on the assassinations, descriptions are rather short. Most of the more notable assassinations have an article on the person himself. That being said, if you think reasonings need to be added for certain targets, by all means see what you can do with it. Additional input on other possible suspects. I don't know if you're trying to say that this list is incomplete, or if the responsibility for certain assassinations may have been ascribed to groups other than Israel. In either case, I would again urge you to add more info/describe where you feel it to be necessary. Joshdboz (talk) 13:28, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Joshdboz, I think you understood my concerns perfectly. I figured I'd start by making note of these concerns with a POV tag and a bit of talk... I'm a tad backed up though so I don't think I will be able to go fishing for details on these cases. Maybe someone familiar with the topic can make some basic changes that will help the situation? I know it's a tad annoying to post a tag and then not do anything about it, I'm open for suggestions and compromise though. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 17:01, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Just an amusing remark, by the way...

By a curious coincidence, the page "List of Israeli assassinations" is available in Arab, but not the "List of Hamas suicide attacks"... I wonder why... How strange, isn't it? ;-) Fan2jnrc (talk) 12:01, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

It's called systematic bias - an unfortunate consequence of the demographic groups editing each Wikipedia. Joshdboz (talk) 15:20, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

1950s assassination only kills policeman

Please explain why this was taken out: *March 27, 1952 - package addressed to Chancellor Konrad Adenauer of West Germany exploded in the Munich Police Headquarters, killing one police officer. Five members of the disbanded terrorist group, Irgun were arrested in Paris but no action taken. Future Prime Minister of Israel Menachem Begin was implicated as the organiser. See Konrad Adenauer, Assassination Attempt for more details. 86.159.190.174 (talk) 08:43, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Sorry for not having responded sooner. This list is for government directed assassinations (basically via the military or intel orgs); there does not appear to be evidence that the event you mention was sponsored by the state of Israel, even if Israeli citizens were allegedly invovled. Joshdboz (talk) 17:32, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

List of alleged Israeli assassinations?

I do not see that a clear distinction is drawn in this article between assassinations that are alleged or that have drawn some speculation of Israeli involvement, and assassinations that have been proven or officially admitted to be link to Israeli security agencies. There were several items (which I removed) that were in the former category, and I suspect many more can be found. Демоны Врубеля/Vrubel's Demons (talk) 19:17, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Given that spy agencies don't generally openly proclaim responsibility for their exploits, we can't expect that all the entires will be accompanied by an admission of guilt by the perpetrating party. The solution is to attribute the claims to who is making them (if there doubt). But if sources report the event without any qualifications, we should too. Where there are Israeli denials, those should be noted. I restored what you removed. Please don't remove sourced text again. Please do feel free to add any qualifications or denials. Tiamut^talk 19:39, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

The solution would be to rename this article into List of alleged Israeli assassinations because that is what we have in most cases - speculations and accusations and nothing more. Cherrypicking sources is not helpful here - if most reliable sources report an event without any qualification we could include it, but for the two entries I deleted above that is not the case, and I suspect that is true for many more entries on this list. Демоны Врубеля/Vrubel's Demons (talk) 21:38, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

No, I don't think the best solution is a rename. I think you'll find that thi entry you removed for al-Mabhouh will soon be proven without a doubt (given the latest reports of the involvement of Israeli immigration officials in procuring the fake UK passports). I also don't see why the source you found that uses "alleged" for Gerald Bull should trump the other two sources cited in his article, one of which uses the descriptor "well-known" to refer to Mossad involvement and the other which uses no qualification.

As I said, the best way to handle ambiguous cases in to give space to that ambiguity in the columns provided in the table using what reliable sources have to say. Where there are conflicting reports, this should be noted. If we went by your standard and only included those that Israeli bodies officially owned up to killing, there would be hardly any entries on this page, because the secret services simply do not do that.

Please restore the two entires you have deleted and add information qualifying them per the reliable sources you have found that offer qualifications. Thanks. Tiamut^talk 21:45, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

It's at least good that there's finally some debate here, as this page does call for some judgment - absolute certainty is almost always lacking. The intention is to rely on reliable sources and commonsense. Just because Al-Ahram blames something on the Zionists doesn't make it true. Neither does a breathless story from Debka. In the most recent case of Mabhouh, we have the Dubai police announce that they are almost 100% certain Mossad was behind it, and independent reporting that confirms this from other sources (see the latest from the Times). To me that seems like enough reliable sources to merit a mention here. As for the rest, I think renaming the article would get cumbersome, but if there is doubt on certain cases then by all means we should debate inclusion, and if included, add caveats where necessary. Joshdboz (talk) 01:36, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Folke Bernadotte

What are the views of other editors regarding the inclusion of Folke Bernadotte? While it is true that the Lehi were responsible for the killing and they were not a strictly state apparatus (it was a transitory period in any case being just months after the state's establishment), many of those involved went on to become members of the Israeli government at various times. Thoughts? Tiamut^talk 21:11, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, on the one hand I think it would be opening up a can of worms to start including unofficial Lehi and Irgun stuff, on the other hand it does make interesting material. What do people think about a background paragraph up top about assassinations by Jewish/Israeli groups pre-1948? Just a thought. Joshdboz (talk) 01:52, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Repeated deletions of sourced material

Now Drmoos is deleting the same material Vrubel's Demons deleted [2]. Could we please stop pretending that there is misrepresentation going on here? The article states clearly that these are incidents reported to have been carried out by Israeli actors. The entries being deleted are reported to have been carried out by Israeli actors. That there is no official Israeli confirmation is to be expected given that secret services don't tend to confirm these kinds of things. Any doubts expressed in reliable sources can and should be noted, including official denials. But entires should not be summarily removed, particularly when they are reliably sourced and properly attributed. Please stop deleting these things without discussion and without regard for our policies on NPOV and RS. Tiamut^talk 23:03, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

And I have removed them again. Do not ignore my explanation above. If you want to include alleged assassinations then please rename the article, otherwise refrain from adding speculations. Демоны Врубеля/Vrubel's Demons (talk) 20:08, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Mahbouh

The first line of this article is The following is a list of assassinations reported to have been conducted by the state of Israel. Does anybody here seriously doubt that this was an assassination reported to have been conducted by Israel? When a reliable source explicitly says that The Israeli secret service Mossad has been widely accused of carrying out the killing? The text made clear that Israel had not confirmed that they did this, there is no cause for removal. nableezy - 23:05, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Looks fine. The BBC statement is clear. Joshdboz (talk) 14:31, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Then why is the title of the article "List of Israeli assassinations" and not "List of assassinations reported to have been conducted by the state of Israel"? Демоны Врубеля/Vrubel's Demons (talk) 20:11, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Killings

These are all killings. There is no controversy as to whether they are killings.

There is controversy as to whether they are assassinations. A large number of the most RS sources -- professors and judges -- call them killings but not assassinations. That is because, among other things, assassinations are murder. Those RS sources do not believe the killings are either murder or assassinations.

This is quite clear for anyone who looks at the sources. If they need to see examples, I will be happy to provide them. For that reason, I am changing the word "assassinations" (disputed) to killings (undisputed).--Epeefleche (talk) 05:39, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

page move

to include attempted assassinations, kidnappings and failures as well. Ie- Khalen Meshal in Amman,a nd the fella in Argentina.Lihaas (talk) 06:33, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

I would be OK with that if we change "assassinations" to "targeted killings".--Epeefleche (talk) 06:42, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

That sounds good. It seems Meshaal is there right now, nut he shouldnt be under the current criteria.

Although we ned wording to include kidnappingstooLihaas (talk) 06:51, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

As with List of kidnappings.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:33, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, of the sort but combined here (as this is already a specific and not a "list of assassination")Lihaas (talk) 06:10, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

How would you propose it read? "List of Israeli targeted killings and kidnappings"? I don't think we need the word "attempted" or "failed" in the title (IMHO).--Epeefleche (talk) 06:51, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

I am against changing the title to "targeted killings". Israel has killed individuals who are not involved in warfare or terrorism against the state of Israel (e.g. ex-Nazis, various Western scientists). Factomancer (talk) 13:11, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

The scientists are targeted killings. Not sure we have much in the way of ex-Nazis.--Epeefleche (talk) 05:50, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Targeted killings is the accurate term. Targeted killing is the intentional killing–by a government or its agents–of a combatant or civilian targeted by the government, who is not in the government's custody. The target is a person taking part in an armed conflict whether by bearing arms or otherwise. This is by far the more accurate name. Marokwitz (talk) 06:42, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

October 2010 incident

I believe that the October 2010 killings should be removed from this list. Here is the description of what happened from the source:

They were killed in their Hebron hideout after resisting capture and opening fire on soldiers from the IDF’s Duvdevan undercover unit and officers from the Israel Police’s Counterterrorism Unit (YAMAM).[3]

The source is very clear that the Israelis approached these men in an attempt to arrest them, not to kill them, and that the killing was incidental. This is not an assassination. GabrielF (talk) 01:36, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable based on the above, though I've not independently looked at all the sources.--Epeefleche (talk) 02:00, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Indeed it appears to be a case of death in action, not an assassination. Marokwitz (talk)

Resolved

Cool, it seems this exclusion is warranted by consensus. (previously it was just removed)Lihaas (talk) 05:18, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Walid Obeidi

I'd like to remove Walid Obeidi from the list for the same reason listed above - it appears he was killed as the result of a gun battle with troops who came to arrest him, not assassinated. Here are two sources. CNN BBC GabrielF (talk) 02:48, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

Three points

Some thoughts:

1) The Maxwell inclusion is highly dubious. I propose its deletion. 2) Some of the editorializing as to "in retaliation for" is unsourced, and needs sources or revision. 3) We should only inline the first instance of each word, such as Gaza. --Epeefleche (talk) 14:39, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Attributing the Maxwell case to Mossad is "conspiracy/fringe theory" or a wild speculation of the worst kind. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary sources. Marokwitz (talk) 15:08, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

1. i digress, the RS sources have said so, but perhaps add the caveat that it was "suspected" even though the RS said so. No such accusation has been mage against Gideon's Spies (and also sourced on his page)

2. fact/dubious tag it for now, if nothing is forthcoming then it can go.

3. Agreed per WP:Overlink.Lihaas (talk) 05:19, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree to Maxwell's deletion. Clearly a fringe theory (and way, way out there, as those go).--Epeefleche (talk) 05:49, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

WP:Consensus. on what basis. it has been cited by RS sources.Lihaas (talk) 10:08, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

It was removed per WP:REDFLAG. Where are the multiple, high quality reliable sources? Not every sensational news article is strong enough to introduce such extraordinary facts. Marokwitz (talk) 10:25, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree with deleting Maxwell as well. It seems little more than a rumor. GabrielF (talk) 15:47, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Rumour? Where is there a question of doubt in the source? if the source is somehow questionable, THEN an added source is needed.Lihaas (talk) 19:44, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Please read WP:REDFLAG. The Mossad killing well known Jewish philanthropists is totally out of character, the source seems to be a clear case of yellow journalism, a better source is needed to back such wild speculation. Marokwitz (talk) 05:23, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

But you havent answered why this source is not good enough. Its not "journalism" as such anyways. What is abd abotu this aource that a better one is needed>?Lihaas (talk) 22:34, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

• Agree w/Gabriel and Marok, for the reasons stated.--Epeefleche (talk) 23:00, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Gerald Bull

What should we do about Gerald Bull? We are stating definitively that he was assassinated by Mossad and citing a piece in the Irish Independent as a source. However, our own article on Gerald Bull says that nobody really knows who killed him and there are many suspects. The Irish Independent article [4] strikes me as very weak - it is very sensational and states as true many claims that are really just unproven allegations (for example, that Israel killed Imad Muganiyeh, or that Mossad has "tens of thousands" of Jewish helpers around the world. A much better source is a huge New York Times Magazine article (12 pages online) on the Bull case which says:

No one knows who killed Gerald Bull. His family claims that it was the Israeli intelligence agency, Mossad. Shortly after the killing, Bull's son Michel said an unnamed intelligence agent had warned his father that Mossad was after him (he has since backed off that assertion). Despite Israel's denials, the family's suspicions are widely shared by intelligence experts. In the past, Israel has shown that it will move quickly and decisively to eliminate military threats from Iraq. In 1981, staging a pre-emptive strike, Israeli warplanes destroyed the Osiraq nuclear reactor near Baghdad to prevent Iraq from producing nuclear warheads.

But if Mossad is a prime suspect, there are many others who might have wanted to kill Bull: the Iraqis, the British, the Americans, the South Africans or even the Chileans. Bull moved in a dangerous world of hidden arms deals and murderous intelligence agencies. Bart Van Leysabeth, a spokesman for Belgium's public prosecutor, says, It is a difficult case, adding that authorities are not very hopeful. Only one thing is certain. Bull had a dangerous ambition, and someone pumped two bullets into his head to stop him.[5]

My preference is that we either delete Bull or, at the very least, explicitly state that this is a rumor.GabrielF (talk) 16:03, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

I reviewed the sources and you appear to be right. If not removed, this at very least should be marked as a "media speculation" , to separate it from the rest. This is an encyclopedia, not a rumors site. Marokwitz (talk) 06:36, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

I largely agree with GabrielF initial comments. After a quick review, I can't find any RS saying definitively that he was whacked by the Mossad. There are number of sources that point to speculation that he was whacked by the Mossad. How do we denote that one of this hits is speculated rather than definitive? Furthermore, how much speculation does there have to be before someone merits inclusion in the list?

It strikes that someone like Mahmoud al-Mabhouh obviously belongs, b/c pretty much everyone agrees the Mossad was responsible, though there are no RSs saying that is definitively the case (to my knowledge at least).

Perhaps we should add a "(speculated)" comment next to the name? I'm going to be bold and put that in. NickCT (talk) 17:02, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Was Amr Qawasme technically assassinated?

It strikes me as though this is more of an accidental killing. NickCT (talk) 22:17, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

That is what the Ma'an News source claims. He was a 66-year-old elderly man in his bed. The IDF didn't say the man offered any resistance. Hamas is calling it an assassination as well. I think an accidental killing is when you bomb someone's home and kill some people on accident. Someone pointed a gun at this man in the bed and pulled the trigger. -asad (talk) 00:53, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Hmmmm.... Well, in my mind, "assassination" typically involves forethought (i.e. it's premeditated). The article cited seems to suggest it happened in the heat of the moment. To be frank, this shooting is obviously a little disturbing, but I don't think it's really assassination. Anyway, I'll let others decide. NickCT (talk) 13:34, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

The BBC story referenced in the article says: "Reports say Israeli forces carried out a number of raids across the city, rounding up five men." Based on the sources it seems like this is an arrest attempt that went wrong. We've discussed similar situations in the past and the consensus seems to be that if someone was killed while the Israelis are attempting to make an arrest than it isn't really an assassination since the intent was not to assassinate someone and the death was incidental. (See the October 2010 section above). The same standard should be applied here. GabrielF (talk) 15:21, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't know, just because it was the wrong target whom was assassinated, does it mean that they were not assassinated? -asad (talk) 16:39, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

That's not what I'm saying. I don't have a problem with listing the Lillehammer affair here for example. That was clearly an attempt to assassinate someone where they got the wrong guy. Here it looks like they were trying to arrest someone but something happened and this guy ended up getting killed. If we include that in a list of assassinations than we're implying that they intended to kill someone and that's not what the source says. I understand its a fine distinction but "assassination" is a highly-charged word and there are POV issues. GabrielF (talk) 16:49, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

I concur with GabrielF. NickCT (talk) 17:10, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

The intended target to be assassinated was Wael Mahmoud Said Bitar. Which wold be exactly like the Lillehammer affair you were talking about. see here — Preceding unsigned comment added by Asad112 (talk • contribs) 17:50, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Well the article you cite says: "Bitar, who was implicated in a deadly suicide bombing attack in Dimona in 2008, was arrested during the raid." That implies that this was not an assassination attempt. GabrielF (talk) 22:40, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

It implies he was the target of a botched assassination attempt. -asad (talk) 23:43, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

You mean they came there to kill the guy but they accidentally arrested him? I'm pretty sure that's not how these things work. GabrielF (talk) 23:45, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't know what went wrong and why he wasn't kill in the end. All I know is that Amr Qawasme was not the target of the raid, but that Bitar was. Even if they didn't intend to assassinate Bitar (which I don't believe is true) they assassinated Qawasme. -asad (talk) 19:44, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

An accidental killing is not an assassination, based on the dictionary definition of the word. Same as Ahmed Bouchiki. Marokwitz (talk) 11:35, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

relevant RfC on the defining an assassination

An RFC on Talk:Death of Osama bin Laden is relevant to this article. The RFC was specifically located at: Talk:Death of Osama bin Laden/Archive 3#Rename to Assassination of Osama bin Laden. There was a clear consensus around the idea that if reliable sources don't indicate a clear attempt to kill someone (for instance if the order is to capture or kill if resisting) than the term "assassination" is inappropriate. We have reached a similar consensus on this article with regard to two cases described above.

According to contemporary press accounts, Massoud Ayyad's assassination took place on February 13, 2001, not February 3, as this article says.