Talk:Avicenna

good sources/Rfc

[this] and [this] Notice that the editor who did all this is by far the top contributor to the article, with 350 edits. A great deal of what we have here is original research. There is a large group of articles at Iranica [1] its more neutral than what we have here. Also a good source is Goodman, Lenn Evan (1992). Avicenna. Routledge. ISBN 9780415019293. Retrieved 9 July 2010.

Response to IP's changes

There has been a few IP addresses that constantly change "Persian" to "Iranian" and at times cut sources or change content without a reasonable explanation of citation almost on par with vandalims of the page. The following should establish for these IPs, if not just one person (or few persons) with multiple IPs (?)) that there is enough historical evidence to support his ethnicity and indeed his place of birth as Persian, and Persia respectively:

Author: Aisha, Khan
Work: Avicenna (Ibn Sina): Muslim physician and philosopher of the eleventh century
Publisher: The Rosen Publishing Group
Date: 2006

A sample page where there is direct indication that he was Persian: Page 47 Link to see the page here

Author: Oxford University Press
Work: The American Historical Association's guide to historical literature
Publisher: Mary Beth Norton
Date: 1995
Text from the source: "'Good introduction to work of Avicenna, properly known as Ibn Sina, seminal Persian figure in philosophy and medicine and..."

Author: Ehsan Yar-Shater
Title: Encyclopaedia Iranica
Publisher: Routledge & Kegan Paul
Date: 2004
Text from the source: "Avicenna (qv) was the first Persian physician to build on the Galeno-Hippocratic tradition rather than dogmatically adhering to its every precept. His view of disease, as articulated in his Ketdb al-qdnun fi'l-tebb..."

Author(s): Francis Barrett, Lives
Title: The lives of alchemystical philosophers; with a catalogue of books in occult chemistry, and a selection of treatises on the hermetic art
Date: 1815
Text: Indicates he was born in Persia. So he was born in Samanid Persia, not Iranian Samanids... Link here

Author: Sir Muhammad Iqbal
Title: The development of metaphysics in Persia: a contribution to the history of Muslim philosophy
Publisher: Luzac & Co.
Date: 1908
Text: Page 38 Link here "Among early Persian Philosophers, Avicenna alone attempted to..."

Author: Jorge J. E. Gracia, Timothy B. Noone
Title: A companion to philosophy in the Middle Ages
Publisher: Wiley-Blackwell
Date: 2005
Text: Page 196 Link here "Avicenna was born in the domain of a Persian dynasty, the Samanids, near the city of Bukhara..." (This is particularly important since the person behind the IP also chagnes Samanids from "Persian" to "Iranian". See edit history)

Author: Peter Damian, Kate Damian
Title: Aromatherapy: scent and psyche : using essential oils for psychological and physical well-being
Publisher: Inner Traditions / Bear & Company
Date: 1995
Text: "The invention of distillation is attributed to Persians, particularly to the renown physician, philosopher, and alchemist Hakim Abu Ali Abdulah Husayn Ibn Sina, known more familiarly in the West as Avicenna. Actually some perfumed waters used in Persia perior to Avicenna's birth, and by the thirteenth century...was being exported as far as China. Link here

Author: Vilen Vardanyan
Title: Panorama of Psychology
Publisher: AuthorHouse
Date: 2011
Text: Page 35: "Avicenna was a Persian philosopher & Physican & one of the main interpreters of Aristotle to the Islamic world...Much of his life Avicenna spent traveling form court to court in Persia." Link here (Note his origin and that he spent most of his time including the portion in Samanid and later Ghaznavids in "Persia")

Author: Massachusetts Medical Society, New England Surgical Society
Title: Boston medical and surgical journal, Volume 171, Issue 1
Publisher: MGH (Mass General Hospital)
Date: 1914
Text: Page 286 "Afrter traveling in northeastern Persia he settled in Hamdan, where he spent the rest of his life. He became physician to the ruling prince, Shams-ed-Dowleh. Like many Persian doctor of present day, Avicenna took to politics and became a Minister." Link here

Author: Armand Augustine Maurer
Title: Medieval philosophy
Publisher: PIMS
Date: 1982
Text: Page 94 "Avicenna was a Persian and Averros a Spanish Moore." Link here

Author: Cyrus Abivardi
Title: Iranian Entomology: Applied entomology
Publisher: Springer
Date: 2001
Text: Page 477 "Publications of another Persian scholar, Avicenna (980-1037 A.D.), known as Ibn-Sina also contain some information on insects and related groups." Link here

Author: Burton F. Beers
Title: World history: patterns of civilization
Publisher: Prentice Hall
Date: 1993
Text: Page 236 "Avicenna was born in 980 near Bukhara, a center of Islamic culture of Persia."

Author: Hugh Chisholm
Title: The encyclopædia britannica: a dictionary of arts, sciences, literature and general information, Volume 3
Publisher: University Press
Date: 1910
Text: Page 62 "his [Avicenna] father a Persian from Balkh..."

Author: Chad Meister, J. B. Stump
Title: Christian thought: a historical introduction
Publisher: Taylor & Francis
Date: 2009
Text: Page 256 "Two if its [Muslim empire] greatest minds were from these time and places: Avicenna from Persia, and Averroes from Spain." Link here

Dr. Persi (talk) 01:48, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

The use of Persian here is ambiguous, considering that it's not just an ethnicity but also a geographical location (i.e., a place of birth). If this double meaning is true, then we need to make sure which sense of meaning is meant by the source cited (i.e., ethnicity or place of birth?), and this distinction need to be made explicit in the article. We should also find sources that deal specificity with his ethnicity, as opposed to it being mentioned in passing. Wiqixtalk 02:55, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

That is absolutely not true! Persian here refers to an indication for the people who have lived in the Persian empire at least by then. The concept of "Iranian" is a rather recent one. Look at the sources. They clearly state it. Whatever other assumptions we drive is original research. I wont mind if he changed the text to Iranian (Persian) but he has not yet generated even one source that states clearly that he was Iranian in the sense he is referring to. Also Iranian, has many meanings. According to the English Wikipedia Persian and Iranian is an interchangable concept. I really am worried that you guys are trying to change historical facts based on your own assertions instead of having sources for it! How much more is needed aside from legible sources that distinctly state it?

Additionally it is clearly both in this case. Note the above source stating "his [Avicenna] father a Persian from Balkh." There is no question that he was Persian by origin as well.Dr. Persi (talk) 04:04, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Here is further proof of his "ethnicity" as you asked for:

Author: Elizabeth Lane Furdell
Title: Fatal thirst: diabetes in Britain until insulin
Publisher: BRILL
Date: 2009
Text: Page 19 "During the middle ages and at some Western universities well into the seventeenth century doctors relied on the wisdom of Avicenna (980-1037), an ethnic persian." Link here

Author: Paul Strathern
Title: brief history of medicine: from Hippocrates to gene therapy
Publisher:Running Press
Date: 2005
Text: Page 58 "Avicenna was born an ethnic Persian in 980" Link here

Dr. Persi (talk) 04:23, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Yet another source that states it:

Author: Brian Duignan
Title: Medieval Philosophy
Publisher: The Rosen Publishing Group
Date: 2010
Text: Page 89 "Avicenna, an ethnic Persian who spent his wholfe life in eastern and central regions of Iran received his earliest education in Bukhara under the direction of his father." Link here
Dr. Persi (talk) 04:40, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Yet more:

Author: Michael Kort
Title: Central Asian republics
Publisher: Infobase Publishing
Date: 2004
Text: Page 24 "...an ethnic Persian like Avicenna, al-Biruni was born near present-day city of Khiva, in Turkmenistan." Link here

Author: Encyclopaedia Britanica
Title: The New Encyclopaedia Britannica, Volume 1
Publisher: Encyclopaedia Britannica
Date: 2005
Text: Page 739 "Avicenna an ethnic Persian..."

Author: Frederick Seitz
Title: The science matrix: the journey, travails, triumphs
Publisher: Frederick Seitz
Date: 1998
Text: Page 24 "Avicenna (Ibn Sina, 980-1037) a brilliant Persian philosopher and critic, did suggest that air resistance leads to the dissipation of the movement of a body set in motion and that in the very unlikely circumstances that one could produce a vaccum...."

Link here

Lastly the link you gave is to Persian (disambiguation) but here it is about Persian people a subset of people in Iranian pleatue and synonymous with people of the country Iran. Although there are a lot of Persians in counries like Afghanestan, and Tajikestan and other newly independent state who trace their ancestory to the Persian empire or its reach. The problem is recent historical messes that has made this concept rather difficult. No matter, in case of Avicenna, there is ample proof as well as the fact that there was no Iran back then. Dr. Persi (talk) 04:58, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

I agree. The new set of references seem more relevant to this discussion, especially the "ethnic Persian" phrase, which none of the old references or quotes had. This is a clear indication that he may have been a Persian by ethnicity, not just by birth. We should probably cite those new references instead of ones that just use "Persian". Wiqixtalk 06:15, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. Sources cited as you asked.

Dr. Persi (talk) 07:27, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

The IP still keeps changing "Persian" to "Iranian" without citing any sources or even bothering so much as to read my sources. I have provided sources that clearly delineate his origin and his ethnicity, and yet this IP keeps reverting my edits saying "see the talk page" when in fact he has not made any contribution of any sort. This is starting to look like a personal vendetta on the part of the IP and unless he can produce reasonable sources, he is simply pushing his on WP:SYN agenda. I corrected it again because the sources I cited clearly state his "ethnicity", aside from the other 20 some sources that call him Persian in passing. I do not know how much longer I can keep up with this silly cat and mouse game. It needs some attention from somebody who is familiar with Wiki rules. Dr. Persi (talk) 20:35, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Modern ethnology does not use the term "Persian" for the Iranian Peoples living in modern day Tajikistan please refer to prior sections of this talk page; they are referenced. most of your sources are medical sources or entry level history textbooks which are not ethnologically precise sources. they literature is has a generalist tone, and use the term "Persian" in a generalist fashion. "Iranian" would be a neutral terminology , it includes Persian and Tajiks so neither should have problems with it , unless you have other intentions(which are clear looking at your edits on other iranian scholars pages (as another IP editor had also mentioned before). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.36.173.158 (talk) 02:33, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

You sound awefully close to another user, Artacoana who also advocated the same logic before when he put Persian (Tajik) and was told by multiple admins that his sources were not at all relevant to his point. If so, then you are acting as a "duck". Point is the sources are specific and they delineate this point. By the way "Encylopedia Britannica" and "Medieval History" are NOT debatable sources! You need a stronger argument than that. There are ample sources with specific reference to both ethnicity and nationality. Any other inference is your personal vendetta or original research neither of which Wikipedia houses. See WP:Original. Also looking at what you typed it shouts "original research." This is not a forum! You seem to confuse that. If you state a statement you have to make sure it is VERFIABLE. You are obsessed with me as you seem to have no other argument than following my "edit history" and you are further uneducated about me because you seem to not see the sources I utilize. This is a clear example of that. Unless you provide clear cut evidence to support your assertions they are original research and POV. I stress again that you seem to think the talk page is a forum, as it is not! It is meant to be a place to provide evidence and discuss aspects of the discussion. You are also as per your history a very novice account having made only a few edits. It is interesting how you just came out of nowhere with such a sudden interest in the issue of Avicenna, not to mention your complete knowledge of the past history of this page. Again make sure you read wikipedia rules on sock pupetry. Dr. Persi (talk) 00:34, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Here is the link to Encylopedia Britannica Volume 1. In snippet view since that book is not available for free but you can easily acquire it in any library. Link here on the top "Avicenna an ethnic Persian..." Dr. Persi (talk) 00:37, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Well done, Dr. Persi. GoetheFromm (talk) 05:46, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Turkey's ministry of culture and tourism claims Ibn Sina as being Turkic =(

" History Though there is no dispute about where Ibn Sina was born or died, his origin is open to discussion. Yet according to his own words in his famous “Al-Qanun Fi’l Tıbb” (Vol:2) it will not be a far-fetched assumption to accept him as a Turk. The fact that he wrote mostly in Arabic is due to nothing but his desire to abide with the existing unwritten rule of the era: the language of the religion was the language of science since both aimed to be understood universally. Consequently, Latin was used for scholarly works in the Christian World, while Arabic was the common language used by muslim scholars."

How unfortunate to see these governments, cultural and tourist organizations creating such rubbish and spreading propaganda around. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.58.83.45 (talk) 04:19, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

The fact that he spoke Farsi indicates a lot about his origin. GoetheFromm (talk) 05:45, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Turkey claims a lot of things as being Turkish some Greek and some Persian. Claims are meaningless unless supported by facts. Nationalism has no place in objectivity. Dr. Persi (talk) 11:32, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Avicenna quote

"So when I had reached the age of eighteen I was finished with all of those [philosophical] sciences; at that time I had a better memory for learning, but today my knowledge is more mature; otherwise it is the same; nothing new has come to me since."

Gohlman, Life, 37-39 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.58.83.45 (talk) 05:50, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Great quote. In a week I intend to start reading a bit more about Avicenna. He is such a diverse scholar that it is impossible to fix this article without at least reading a few books about him. Unfortunatley, I did not like the book by Goodman. Khan's book is much better but doesnt have the same degree of detail. This is a great quote nonetheless. At any rate, I will check out Gohlman. In the meanwhile, any recommendation for solid, impartial sources for study of Avicenna? Cheers. Dr. Persi (talk) 09:23, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

While somewhat "POV" Iranica [2] has a lot of really good stuff on Avicenna. J8079s (talk) 23:52, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes Iranica has a somewhat "universal pov" and for this reason it is reviewed by all scholars as "the MOST reliable source" (read the last pages here) ever written about things concerning southwestern Asia and beyond: in English or even any other language (see this review). EIr with more than 1500 top (mostly non-iranian) scholars as contributors can not achieve anything else than what it has already! I wished more "Iranian opinions" were included in their articles, but they seem to have one criterion: only "TOP scholars" write (as put by this reviewer: "highest standard of scholarship"). I have heard that "Islamists" hate Encyclopaedia Iranica. Xashaiar (talk) 13:25, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Misuse of sources

This article has been edited by a user who is known to have misused sources to unduly promote certain views (see WP:Jagged 85 cleanup). Examination of the sources used by this editor often reveals that the sources have been selectively interpreted or blatantly misrepresented, going beyond any reasonable interpretation of the authors' intent.

Diffs for each edit made by Jagged 85 are listed at cleanup3. It may be easier to view the full history of the article.

A script has been used to generate the following summary. Each item is a diff showing the result of several consecutive edits to the article by Jagged 85, in chronological order.

• Avicenna: [1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15][16][17][18][19][20][21][22][23][24][25][26][27][28][29][30][31][32][33][34][35][36][37][38][39][40][41][42][43][44][45][46][47][48][49][50][51][52][53][54][55][56][57][58][59][60][61][62][63][64][65][66][67][68][69][70][71][72][73][74][75][76][77][78][79][80][81]

Johnuniq (talk) 10:01, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

I removed "region", it does not mean anything, except to create the erroneous impression that Avicenna was from Persia (Iran). In fact, Persia (Iran) itself was part of the Samanid empire, which was from Afghanistan. So, Avicenna was an "Afghan Persian" born in the "Afghan Samanid empire", there is no "Iran/Persia" involved here!!! Kasparov49acer 22:20, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Also, the Samanids were a Persian dynasty of Afghanistan, not Iran. I added that since many Iranians have created a lot of confusion regarding the word "Persia" and they have associated that to today's "Iran". The Samanids were not from today's Iran, they were from today's Afghanistan, and today's Iran was their colony. --Kasparov49acer 16:31, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Someone keep changing my edits. When I change something, I am curteous enough to provide a short explanation. Please explain us how or why you are trying to twist the truth here !?! --Kasparov49acer 16:34, 26 July 2011 (UTC)