Talk:Syrian civil war

VOR

Is Voice of Russia a reliable source? This has been a matter of argument lately and I think it should be on this talk page. I think the VOR is owned by the Russian government, therefore not a reliable source. Jacob102699 (talk) 21:50, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

This was brought up during the Libyan civil war. Voice of Russia is a perfectly reliable source. Unless the specific article raises some issues, there is no reason why it cannot be used. Jeancey (talk) 22:26, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

We use VOA, which is just as biased, just towards the US, so why not? FunkMonk (talk) 17:21, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

From a historical perspective it is very common for newspapers to generally support the foreign policy, or strategic aims, of the country in which they are based. This is true for VOR and for many papers in the United States as well. We have to use them as sources but should keep the context of their perspective in mind. -Darouet (talk) 17:53, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Then stating that a paper is Russian or some such is enough. We should hold the same standards for American as well as non-American sources. Some American media-outlets are no better than those in dictatorships when it comes to cheering for their government. FunkMonk (talk) 18:01, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

We use the BBC and CNN sources, which are from anti-Assad countries. Why not use a source which is from a pro-Assad country? Per the logic you put forward we should question the reliability of BBC, CNN and others. VOA as a source stays because Wikipedia needs to keep its neutrality. EkoGraf (talk) 15:56, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

All I was saying was VOR is the Russian government's radio broadcasting station We should quote "Voice of Russia reported.........". Same thing for VOA like FunkMonk said. It is a government news radio. Jacob102699 (talk) 21:58, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

CW in 2 Governorates

Just to let you know, not for discussion, just news, Red Cross International has just reported that there is a complete civil war going on in Homs and Idlib Governorates. Kofi Annan has announced if his plan fails then civil war will happen through the whole country full-scale. Per Al Jazeera English. Jacob102699 (talk) 22:02, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes, this conflict has pretty much many characteristics of the civil war. We only need to wait until reliable sources start calling it a civil war (though they might be reluctant to call it so due to some political reasons), then the title will be changed. --93.136.179.188 (talk) 17:43, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

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"Deaths" Section

This section needs help. Does there really need to be both governorate and city deaths sections? Why is the whole section scattered with mentions of government fatalities not being included, why are these numbers not included? Why are so many different figures being included? I would like to alter the section to make it more systematic. However, I know this will be a conversational course of action. Thoughts? XantheTerra (talk) 05:34, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

There are so many different figures being included because there are many variations of the death toll. We include any relevant claim. (like the Human rights watch, UN, LCC, Syrian government)

Some of these claims state that they are only referring to the death toll of the opposition, and that they do not know the death toll of the government's forces. We have to mention this.

We did the same thing for the Libyan civil war, a box which included several variations of the death toll. It is unlikely that any one team/group has the exact death toll, especially with such a discrepancy between the Syrian goverment's claim, the UN, and the LCC (a Syrian network of civilians on the ground in Syria.)

I see no reason to change it. Sopher99 (talk) 12:37, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

It seems so redundant though. I see no need to included a section on total deaths, then by region and then again by city given that each time the information is hard to verify and deaths in one category are already included in another. I think it would be best to have the various estimated figures for the whole country and then highlight a few key areas. Excessive quoting of different statistics is not helpful given the variation among them. This just means more numbers to verify and update. XantheTerra (talk) 19:13, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

The death toll by city was only added a month and a half ago by someone who just felt it could be useful info. The box about the variations of the death toll we got to keep though.

I don't think the death toll by city is hurting the quality of the article, but if you want to delete you can if the other primary users agree. I am ok with deleting death toll by city, but not death toll by province. Sopher99 (talk) 00:22, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

I deleted the death toll by city for the following reasons. All data included in it already appears in the tables above it. The data presented would also need to be updated often, which was not happening. And having so many tables was contributing, by my reading, to a rather fractured article. XantheTerra (talk) 19:33, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

We noted by a * in the combatant section that the Syrian Martyrs and The Violation Documentation Centre sources don't include government forces fatalities. And we also stated right before the overall table of deaths that the LCC and VDC estimates also don't include government forces fatalities. So I think it's pretty clear. At this point we include the tolls given by the opposition (VDC, LCC and Syrian Martys), the government, United Nations and a semi-opposition group (SOHR). We include all of them because they all give varrying death tolls that don't add up to each other. I also don't mind removing the city-by-city toll. EkoGraf (talk) 13:32, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Reference 289, the reference for the UN reporting 10,000 deaths, is misreferenced. It is a reference to the english language version of the Chinese news website "People's Daily Online." The PDO article does not cite its sources. In order to label the listed number of 10,000 deaths was reported by the UN, primary sources or documentation from the UN must be cited. Any UN official release or paper on findings from the region citing these numbers will do, but it must be from the UN. Otherwise that portion of the reported deaths taple must be either deleted or relabled so it says that those numbers were actually reported by the Chinese site PDO, not the UN. I will make the change if no UN reference is cited. 134.11.154.97 (talk) 13:09, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

I'll take care of it soon. Sopher99 (talk) 14:49, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Arrests and Convictions

Curious about this text in the arrests and convictions section

Many news outlets reported that a prominent LGBT anti-government blogger called Amina Arraf was allegedly arrested by Syrian authorities, but questions arose of whether she was a real person in the first place.[297] She later tuned out to be an American man blogging under a false name, who had used a photo of a random British woman as that of "Amina".[298]

Zainab al-Hosni, who was claimed to have been detained and beheaded by Syrian authorities, later turned out to be alive.[299]

People thought these events took place, but they actually did not. While I personally find the first story rather interesting I don't know if this is the place for it. The second line is presented without any context at all, and presents barely any of the back story detailed in the link. Do we keep stuff that did not actually happen? XantheTerra (talk) 21:34, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

That hoax seemed significant at that time because it occurred when people still believed that protesters were drugged induced salifists from Afganistan. Sopher99 (talk) 15:57, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

I view these facts a picture of the article as a whole. This page is filled with unconnected facts that have no connecting material. How many people hold with the salifist angle now anyway? I for one, think that because this so called arrest of the blogger did not occur, does not belong in the section called "arrests". XantheTerra (talk) 02:26, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

It is not even a something doesn't occur, the arrest of a blogger is more than a routine a Syria --aad_Dira (talk) 13:03, 19 May 2012 (UTC).

It's a civil war now

It's a civil war now and it is called "civil war" by more and more media and politicians. So let's move the article to "Syrian civil war"! -Metron (talk) 18:15, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

more and more media such as? I7laseral (talk) 02:21, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

So, let me get this straight, it's a civil war if enough websites say it is? This is absurd. Yes, there is unrest, but the oposition controls no territory and the government is in no apparent danger of ceasing to function any time soon. Call it a civil war if you must, but so far it's been an extremely one-sided civil war. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.11.154.97 (talk) 21:08, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

The FSA does have territory, the Idlib province, the Deir Ezzor province, Daraa, the northern half of Homs, Talsibeh and Rastan. The Somalian government is in no danger of ceasing to function any time soon. Still a Somali civil war. I7laseral (talk) 23:20, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

I said "control." While the FSA operates in those areas, they control no provinces or districts. Your comparison to Somalia is a poor one. The Somali government only very barely functions and provides only minimal and inconsistent services to its population. The Syrian government functions largely as usual and continues to provide normal, day to day services (such as sanitation, trash removal, fire, and police services) to the vast majority of its population. 134.11.154.97 (talk) 13:17, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Sanitation and fire are not taken care of by the Syrian government except in Central Damascus and Central Aleppo, Latakia and Tartous. Police and the army are one entity now. Syria had the lowest Human development index of all arab nations except for Yemen before the uprising even began. The Somali government in Somaliland and Central Mogadashu functions perfectly fine. I7 has a point though, a civil war could be like the one in Algeria, 1992-2002, Shri lanka 1976-2009, , none of which the ruling governments were in jeopardy. Keep in mind civil wars last an average of 5 or 6 years. It took 3 years for Somalians to oust Siand Barre, 3 years for Liberians to Oust Charles Taylor, and 9 years for Ugandans to oust Idid Amin. Sopher99 (talk) 14:54, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Oh 7,00 pus dead, its not a civil war, just a misunderstanding. I doubt the government controls all the country or the rebels control none. The reports are patchy and unreliable. Enlil Ninlil (talk) 00:39, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Censorship: Spill over to Lebanon, Dmitry Medvedev's remark

Substantial parts of my change on the spill over to Lebanon have been reverted.

Firstly, the spill over to Lebanon is important and it belongs into the time line.

Secondly, User:I7laseral claims (without substantiation) that Medvedev's remark during international legal forum in St. Petersburg about the danger of "a full-blown regional war" and the "use of nuclear weapons" was (only) about Iran. This is not true. Medvedev made a general statement and the international media has interpreted it also on Syria, e.g. here.

User:I7laseral can not revert these changes without moving the contents elsewhere.

This is censorship. --Dinarsad (talk) 01:08, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Here you got a report about the U.S. Embassy in Beirut being wary of Syrian spillover. It says, U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon Maura Connelly met with Lebanese Prime Minister Najib Mikati to express her concern about regional events. Isn't this enough of a proof that these concerns are funded?

I will now recover my changes above.

@User:I7laseral: Please not revert my changes again without stating your position on both topics. --Dinarsad (talk) 01:29, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

• That's not censorship. The remark was taken out of context. The remark about full blown regional war, that was about syria, the remark about the use of nuclear weapons, that was a thinly veiled remark about Iran. I know of no country who has suggested or even mentioned nuclear weapons in regards to syria, and as far as I know, Syria does not possess nuclear weapons. Removing that line does not mean he HAS to move it elsewhere. Trust me, that is not censorship, it just making the article more accurate. Jeancey (talk) 01:54, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

This is your private theory, Jeancey. Medvedev spoke generally about "such actions, which undermine state sovereignty". Note also, the sentence in the RIA Novosti report: "The right of nations to choose their own path of development is a universal value, he said referring to the situation in Syria and the Middle East as a whole ahead of a G8 summit." This refers directly to Syria. If you have problems to understand this, the statement by Guido Westerwelle gives you a hint. He spoke about the danger of "Moscow and Bejing" being dragged in. And also Westerwelle spoke directly about Syria. So there can be no doubt that these statements were related to the Syrian uprising and how the international community deals with is. --Dinarsad (talk) 02:04, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

I did not Censor you. The info you put in did not warrant its own section. I took out the Medvedev thing because he was not directly referring to Syria. I7laseral (talk) 02:09, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Check this diff, I put what you wrote into a different section. I did not delete your edits, but changed them in good faith. I7laseral (talk) 02:11, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Syrian_uprising_(2011–present)&diff=493587891&oldid=493587675 — Preceding unsigned comment added by I7laseral (talk • contribs) 02:11, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Jeancy, the remark by Medvedev was taken out of context. It doesn't matter if he was talking about sovereignty, he was not talking directly about Syria (which does not even have nukes).

Also what you wrote belongs in the foreign involvement section. Furthermore the section name you gave was way too long. I7laseral (talk) 02:18, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

• I agree that it 100% does not need its own section. The comment about regional war might be put under the international reaction section as a single sentence, but definitely not its own. It just simply isn't important enough of a comment. Russia has been saying the same thing about full blown regional war for months now. Jeancey (talk) 02:25, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

(1) Please see my reply to Jeancey above. (2) Note, the Russian government (incl. Prime Minister Medvedev) perceives this conflict not as an isolated uprising, but as a proxy war. The same is true for the German Foreign Minister. You may think Westerwelle's and Medvedev's statements are not important and can be left aside, but they did have an influence. Guess why Obama came up with the idea to use "Yemen as a model" for Syria? This was directly after the G8 summit and Obamas speaker even said that Syria was an important topic at the summit. [Here you got] a report on it: U.S. tells G8 Syria's Assad must go, cites Yemen as model. It sais Obama came up with the Yemen model after Medvedev's statements.

If these factors of influence ((1) and (2)) are not mentioned in this article, this is nothing but blunt cencorship.

Note, already (1) is enough to make the cause for Medvedev's statment being mentioned.

How can one campaign for freedom of speech in Syria and at the same time play the role of a censor? --Dinarsad (talk) 02:44, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

The problem is, this is a broad overview article that is massively too long as it is. We have been trying to cut it down while preserving information for a while now. A small comment like that certainly doesn't need its own section and doesn't really belong here at all. We aren't trying to censor anything. If you will look at my comment above I suggested that it go in the International reactions to the 2011–2012 Syrian uprising article. It is simply too small of a comment to put in THIS article. I'm not saying it shouldn't be on wikipedia, just not here. Jeancey (talk) 02:49, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Deleting criteria we find unworthy is not the same thing as censorship. Also Obama's staff had been talking about the Yemen model far before the G8 summit. Its not a result of Russia.

Dozens of ministers have been issuing thousands of statements in the past 14 months about Syria. All of them go into the international reactions page. I7laseral (talk) 02:58, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

International reactions to the 2011–2012 Syrian uprising I7laseral (talk) 03:00, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

I am also of the opinion that is article is to long and has to many isolated facts filling the page with excessive citations. We need to work to condense and assemble the information into a coherent article, not added every new facet as it comes in. This contributes to the fragmentation of the article. XantheTerra (talk) 03:55, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

• XantheTerra, I'm with you on condensing the section on the Lebanese events. It is still necessary to collect a relevant set of occurrences and statements, in order to adequately reflect the situation in a coherent article. If the spillover to Lebanon continues, there will probably be a separate article. --Dinarsad (talk) 13:33, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

"Spillover to Lebanon" or just "Events in Lebanon"?

I7lasaer believes the term "Events in Lebanon" was "more precise" and argues that a "spillover discribes people from Syria instigating the fight". I think he is wrong: spillover to Lebanon is more precise. Moreover, if I7lasaer's argument is criterion, then clearly we do have a spillover: Here is an article from April 2012 reporting about "Syrian troops crossing the border [to Lebanon] in pursuit of rebel soldiers". Note, the article says it was not the first time the Lebanese border was crossed by the Syrian army.

I think there should be an opportunity to speak about the pros and cons of each view. --Dinarsad (talk) 14:28, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

• It is my personal opinion that the word 'spillover' is more subjective and therefore less precise. Also, the word 'events' is more encyclopedic. It would be okay to use 'spillover' in the text, but I don't think it is appropriate for a heading title. Jeancey (talk) 16:21, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. Also like I said, spill over implies that specific actions taken from the rebels/Syrian army from Syria into Lebanon are the cause. Not the case Lebanonese citizens and militia vs Lebanonese citizens and militia. I7laseral (talk) 19:22, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm fine with keeping "Events in Lebanon" as title. But I can not agree with I7laseral on the interpretation of "spillover". That term fits also, if the fightings are a result of an tectonic shift in Lebanon politics, that was caused by the events in Syria. Here is an example: LBC: Mikati quit Dar al-Fatwa meeting over statement. — The Lebanes Prime Minister left this meeting, as it demanded a statement by the Syrian Foreign Minister regarding "some Lebanese regions along the border with Syria" be denounced. The background is apparently, that the clerics within this meeting feel some degree of solidarity with the groups that were called "members of Al-Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood" by the Syrian FM. There was apparently no action from the Syrian side, except this letter to Ban Ki-Moon. --Dinarsad (talk) 20:20, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

The section needs to be cut shorter, it is not in Syria, and there is now an article about it. FunkMonk (talk) 13:45, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

• It is now much shorter. Removing "Events in Lebanon" entirely were wrong since both are clearly related. --Dinarsad (talk) 21:48, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Start date

The lead says 26 January and the info box says 15 March. I believe it's 15 March and have heard this in the anniversary of the uprising on Al Jazeera. Mohamed CJ (talk) 13:45, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

I do not think this event has a set day that we can say it started and would be more comfortable by naming a month. XantheTerra (talk) 19:03, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Based on this BBC timeline, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-14703995, I would think it would be march. XantheTerra (talk) 19:05, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Fatah al-Islam fights in Syrien against Assad

Sopher99 reverted my last contribution and claims there were "an agreement in the talk page archives in which we agreed in consensus not to include fateh al islam". I couldn't find such an agreement. When I searched, I found two discussions with Fatah al-Islam being mentioned. But it was mentioned only as a sideline. Please help me to find the corresponding thread with that "agreement". In the meantime I'll restore my changes. Note, Fatah al-Islam was involved (at least) in the 2006 German train bombing plot. --Dinarsad (talk) 15:08, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

This is the 2011- present. What happened in 2006 does not matter.

Furthermore they are dubious belligerents - Belligerents who may have a presence of fighting in Syria' but are not official belligerents. I can only agree to having Fateh al Islam in the infobox if Hezbollah is included also, and from then on its gets very messy (like Libya Turkey Hama Pershmega Al Mahdi army Iran ect). A few dozen fighters in Syria does not constitute being in the belligerent box unless they were hired. Only belligerents who were hired or belligerents whose official leader states they have operatives in Syria should be included. Sopher99 (talk) 15:26, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

The case of Fatah al-Islam is different, since a known member was killed in Syria. Nothing like that can be said for any of the other groups, apart from maybe the Libyans. FunkMonk (talk) 15:53, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

We have no sources other than a pro assad minister claiming it. Considering that European/American ministers have claimed Hezbollah to be in Syria, there is equal weight. Sopher99 (talk) 16:22, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

The very same source (= TIME magazine) is cited here, which is a anti-Assad site. You'll agree me, after you've read the articles "Sons of Idlib" Part I + II in Comments section at nowlebanon.com. Note, this is the site where Michael Weiss released several articles. Weiss is the author of this article. He argues effectively for a military intervention through a "buffer zone" at the Turkish-Syrian border. --Dinarsad (talk) 18:16, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Are you basing the fact that Now Lebanon is anti-assad based on the comments on articles? Because that is ridiculous. Maybe I misunderstood you. Jeancey (talk) 18:43, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

To make it short and easy: would you call nowlebanon.com and times.com a pro assad site? --Dinarsad (talk) 18:46, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

NowLebanon is owned by the Hariri family, there's nothing to discuss. FunkMonk (talk) 18:55, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Thing many accused its of (naturally because it´s strong pro-M14 stance), yet no one up to this day presented any proof. Not even mentioning that Hariri clan and FM already owns several medias they proudly present as their own (same goes for LF). That aside, no matter how I am looking at it, aside of one Fatah al-Islam casultie (and Fatah al-Islam was operating in Syria before) I can´t see much of a proof of group involvement. Same goes for Hezbollah, which participation is sourced mostly by rumours about rocket attack on Zabadani and accusation of other side (it is the same as when opposition accuses Assad of using Mahdis Army, while Assad accuses opposition of beein Al-Queda, reanimated MB military wing and such). Both should be removed. EllsworthSK (talk) 15:45, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

• FunkMonk has a valid point. In case of Fatah al-Islam we have bipartisan reports about a person that is known by name. I see no reason to doubt the these reports. --Dinarsad (talk) 19:23, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

A few dozen infiltrators do not count as belligerents. The PKK, Pershmega, Al Mahdi Army, Libya, Hezbollah, and Hamas all take part in the fighting, but do not belong in the infobox. Whatever, add Fateh Islam then, but don't complain when I add hezbollah. Sopher99 (talk) 20:53, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

If you can present trustworthy reports about PKK's etc. participation in the suppression of the militant revolt, you can add them. All I could find so far on PKK was a report about a PKK raid against the Turkish army. But the report smells: the "Dörtyol" district is at the very west of the Turkish border to Syria. I have never heard that PKK attacks Turkey in this area. — But anyways. If you have thrustworthy reports on Hezbollah, Iranian revolution guards etc: add them. --Dinarsad (talk) 21:36, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

• Once again on the PKK. Here you got a German language article. It says that since begin of the uprising "between 1200 and 1500" PKK fighters came over the border from Iraq and that they had formed self-protection militia in kurdish-settled areas of Syria. It says even they'd control Kurdish quarters of larger Syrian cities. — But it does not say that they participate in the suppression of the militant revolt. --Dinarsad (talk) 21:47, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Hezbollah

I don't get your story about Hezbollah, Sopher99. The first link you've provided claims there had been a rocket attack from Lebanon to Syria by Hezbolla. We can not know if these attacks really took place. All we know is that a FSA-member was telling this story to Michael Weiss as to justify for "rebels’ targeting of power lines and water mains in the country" (side-note: usually terror organisations are doing such things). But anyways. Even if this FSA story is true, it was no accident inside Syria, but an international accident between Lebanon and Syria. The next link (yalibnan.com) reports about a "report by Israeli daily Haaretz" which reports about "Western intelligence reports". (you'll agree that "Western interelligence" is not actually specific). What the article (about the report about the report) says is "that Iranian officers and Hezbollah militants have supplied arms to Syrian troops and trained". This may be true, but if we add all international parties who supply arms and train troops (pro and anti-Assad), we'd get a very long list! What counts finally is that neither these Iranian officers nor Nezbollah have actually participated with the suppression of the militant (or non-militant) revolt. — For that reason, I'll remove Hezbollah from the list. It's simply off-topic --Dinarsad (talk) 23:42, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

1- An attack from inside lebanon on the FSA is still a belligerant action. NATO attacked with planes onto Libya from Crete, still a belligerent.

2- The time's source were not specific, just "have learned form sources".

3- Not an accident, how often does Hezbollah fire rockets into Syria?

Assad's army destroyed half the city of homs including water supply and power lines. Hundreds of thousands of Homeless. (and by the way only terrorists do that *sarcasm*). Sopher99 (talk) 00:34, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Here it says, that Hezbollah fired rockets at "civilians near Damascus" . Yet the folks from ynetnews.com apparently don't believe this themselfs, since they write this was a claim(!) by "the Syrian Revolutionary Coordination Union, one of the more outspoken opposition groups in the country". I can not believe that Hezbollah could have known who would finally be hit by such rockets. Do you? — If not, then you'll agree that the whole story is hardly plausible.

(As for "half the city of Homs" being destroyed, I tend to believe that the Syrian army had in Homs a similar problem as the US troops had with Fallujah.) --Dinarsad (talk) 01:04, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Since when did terrorists attack power lines and water manes? I thought they use suicide bombs. Thats beside the point,

“So Hezbollah started bombing us there with Katyushas. They fired around 21 rockets from near Al-Hermel in Lebanon, which is close to the Syrian border.”

Sopher99 (talk) 01:12, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Now you're also confused. No wonder. I bet you were not able to retell the story in this NOW Lebanon article. Here is the paragraph:

He said that this tactic was not in fact designed to rob the regime of electricity and water but rather to affect Lebanon: retaliation, he said, against Hezbollah’s provocations. “Hezbollah received information that the Iranians who were captured in Homs had been taken to north Syria,” he told me. “So Hezbollah started bombing us there with Katyushas. They fired around 21 rockets from near Al-Hermel in Lebanon, which is close to the Syrian border.”

Let me summarize: (1) Iranians were captured in Homs and had been taken to north Syria (2) Hezollah received information about that and fired 21 rockets from Al-Hermel in Lebanon to Homs

So, the Syrian certainly relies on Hezbollah to attack Homs? Not plausible.

The next paragraph claims seven Iranian nationals were in FSA custody, "five of them, the rebels insist, are members of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) brought in to assist Assad’s Air Force intelligence in sniping".

If that is true, we may assume that FSA has made this public — somehow.

Here is a blog article that links a video that fits to the "IRGC members captures by FSA" story. The blog is quite sceptic. Read through it. You'll find they understand Arabic language and monitor also PressTV. A second source where I found this video is alarabiya.net. Not convincing to me.

Obviously both stories are just rumors, that were spread by intend. --Dinarsad (talk) 02:21, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Here a new article from today, where the "seven Iranian engineers were also abducted near central Homs city" are mentioned. If it were generally believed at NOW lebanon, that Michael Weiss' portrayal is true, this article hadn't been written as it was. --Dinarsad (talk) 10:49, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Shortening

The Socio-economic section can be scrapped entirely because the bytes on the page are getting too big. The economics and such are not a good background to the uprising. -I7laseral (talk) 04:20, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Completely deleting all references to al-Qaeda support is not part of socio-economics, I assume. FunkMonk (talk) 04:34, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

It belongs on International reactions page now. we know now that al nusra is responsible, and Zawahiri's response is just an international response. I deleted S-E section anyway. I7laseral (talk) 04:39, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

We know that Western sources keep referring to al-Qaeda, which is all that counts. Nusra's participation doesn't negate Qaeda's. FunkMonk (talk) 04:45, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

The Syrian government describes those who commit these terrorist acts actually not as Al Qaida. In his interview with Rossia-24 President Assad said in May 2012: "Some of them are religious extremists of the al-Qaida movement. And I mean here not only this organization, but also an ideology; I say that they share the same extremist and terrorist ideology with al-Qaida.". Unfortunatly, I have only a German language translation: "Einige von ihnen sind religiöse Extremisten der al-Qaida-Bewegung. Und ich meine hier nicht nur diese Organisation, sondern auch eine Ideologie; ich sage dass sie mit al-Qaida die gleiche extremistische und terroristische Ideologie teilen." --Dinarsad (talk) 19:46, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

In any case, I agree with FunkMonk. They are mentioning al-Qaeda all the time which warrants a mention in the main article. EkoGraf (talk) 21:02, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Removal of Material from Intro

I really think the following information should be removed from the intro.

UNICEF reported that over 500 children have been killed,[50][51] Another 400 children have been reportedly arrested and tortured in Syrian prisons.[52][53] Both claims have been contested by the Syrian government.[54] Additionally, over 600 detainees and political prisoners have died under torture.[55] Human Rights Watch accused the government and Shabiha of using civilians as human shields when they advanced on opposition-held areas.[56] Anti-government rebels have been accused of human rights abuses as well, including torture, kidnapping, unlawful detention and execution of civilians, Shabiha, and soldiers. HRW also expressed concern at the kidnapping of Iranian nationals.[14] The UN Commission of Inquiry has also documented abuses of this nature in its February 2012 report, which also includes documentation that indicates rebel forces have been responsible for displacement of civilians.[57]

It should be removed because:

• This is not material that is important to the overall picture of the article
• This material will grow more outdated as events progress
• This page already has enough death statistics that are mentioned in isolation.

XantheTerra (talk) 17:36, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

I am against removing it, we can update stats as time goes by. Rebel actions also important to note. The stats are important because people could think its a war and not a crackdown otherwise. It is important to the overal picture of article, I don't get why you think its not. Deaths statistics are a primary reasoning behind the uprising and its wikipedia article. Sopher99 (talk) 17:42, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Update stats surely are not suited for an intro. The intro should rather summarize, along the lines of "NGO monitoring organizations report a steady number of human rights violations". The main article below can then be more detailed and possibly also contain update stats. --Dinarsad (talk) 19:34, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

I think the opposite, some update stats are totaly suitable. For example if the lede says xxx died but then 2 months later we discover that really xxxx died, we update it. Sopher99 (talk) 20:02, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

You are write on the stats angle, they will naturally need to be updated as events progress. However, I just think the paragraph is not needed. It tells how many children have been killed. Given the number of dead mentioned in the section above, I think we can assume they are not immune. Also, given that this is war/revolution/uprising I think it is safe to assume there are human rights abuses. The paragraph just seem unnecessary as part as an introduction.XantheTerra (talk) 20:22, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Children are specifically targeted intentionally. A major concern for aid groups. Its not like Afganistan/Iraq/Gronzy where children are coincidently killed. Its important to note human shields, as well as rebel kidnap of iranians and "displacement of civilians". I think the lede is fine the way it is and contributes a good picture. The lede is fine and was actually created sentence by sentence by me on consensus from all the others.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Syrian_uprising_(2011–present)/Archive_5#My_solution_to_the_Lede

Sopher99 (talk) 20:30, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

main picture

so what happened to the main multi-pictures picture ?