Talk:Bert Bell

Passion for the game

A full text reading of sources shows Bell only to be, at the very least, equaled by Halas in passion about the game of football. Rooney, Mara, Marshall, are not simply in the same league of these two. Halas is a monumental figure in the NFL. This article does not really bring out Bell's passion and devotion to the game. Halas is prolly in a league of his own. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 23:46, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

How would you suggest we change the article to reflect these thoughts?P0PP4B34R732 (talk) 23:57, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Great question. Let me think about it. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 22:22, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

First of all, this article is tremendously remiss in detailing the finanacial sacrifice Bell and his family endured to promote the NFL. Also, and in particular, this article almost completely omits the financial support Bell had from his wife, Frances (the emotional support Bell had from Frances is omitted, not because of me, but because of the lack of support from reliable sources that I have utilized). A full reading of the sources show, (arguably, I have been neglectful in finding more sources with respect to Frances) Frances being, at the very least, a catalyst to his and the NFL's success. Hrmmm...Secondly, really what is not brought out in this article properly is that Bell put his job on the line to ensure that the NFL draft would continue to be a viable part of the NFL - I've discussed this before, see Talk:National Football League Players Association. Thirdly, some of the stuff is not chronologically placed correctly and is stuck in Family Life and Death, this will be fixed eventually. Some of the stuff is avoided because of peacock terms and the like. Generally speaking, Lyons is ultimately dead on in that he and his family sacrificed greatly and, although his greatest chess moves as commissioner were with dealing with the television media, really he was decades ahead of everyone with respect to dealing with the new labor movement of the NFLPA. I think the professional football hall of fame and others attribute too much acclaim to him w respect to dealing with television, and far, far, far too little acclaim w dealing w the NFLPA. But, I can only write what reliable sources say :) 66.234.33.8 (talk) 22:53, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Let me just get a timeline down first.

There's a funny story Lyons relates in his book, which I just think is completely hilarious, someone asks him to sign something about something, and bell basically replies (paraphrasing)Sonny, my father was Attorney General of Pennsylvania and my brother is a Justice on the Supreme Court of Pennsylania, so I don't sign anything but "Happy Birthday"...I'm laughing just thinking about it...but iow, its tough to find some stuff out sometimes. (i click show preview, and I'm still laughing)

Certainly, numerous sources recount Bell openly crying at owners' meetings, but I am not putting in that directly because it's in book after book after book. But I can certainly paraphrase that and I probably will...."became severly emotionally distraught over Marshall's selfish nature in not [thinking league-first]" (Not going to say league-first, it's a cliche used over and over and over again). If I can not find an author willing to say "passion and devotion", then I will do exactly what they do and build up a case, by exhibiting example after example after example after example and let the reader decide what it means 66.234.33.8 (talk) 21:00, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Some of the stuff I have written is really bad. I mean, who cares if the Eagles were 1-9 in whatever year. It reads like a team history article. Yuck. One thing I know I want in this article in the Eagles section is when 20-30 people attended a game on a really cold wintery day and Bell invited them all up to the press box and served them coffee and donuts. That was Bert Bell. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 00:48, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

I am open to suggestions :) 66.234.33.8 (talk) 00:54, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

I have started it thanks to Robert A. Maxwell and the Evening Public Ledger. Too bad, Maxwell died 2 young and looks to have been a great friend of Bell's by all accounts.

I still think Florence was a heavy hitter, but there are no sources on that. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 02:09, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

There's a bunch of things now popping up. First and foremost is his friendship with Maxwell. 2ndly I now have a reason he was so protective of officiating which has not been brought out and must be brought out. What was intended .....the way the violence of the game was described by me was supposed to how even in the adversity of this negative publicity (and this negative publicity extended for decades against the NFL) he still staunchly defended the game.....Maybe my tone was wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.234.33.8 (talk) 22:53, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

keepalive 66.234.33.8 (talk) 23:07, 20 January 2012 (UTC) keepalive 66.234.33.8 (talk) 22:59, 2 February 2012 (UTC) keepalive

Things are relevant. Historically speaking, the gizmo player which Bell utilized in 1938 or 1939, which needs fact checking by me, from Sing Sing, is now relevant to what is going on with the New York Jets in 2012. I can't do anything because my hands are tied by other matters. But, it's an extremely fascinating historical perspective. When you look at the player that Bell brought in against the immortal George Halas and you look at what's goin' on now w the Jets now it's mind blowing. I need fact checking, but the gizmo player brought in - should have been brought in during the worst season in the history of the Philadelphia Eagles. Generally speaking, I have done a pathetic job in showing Bell's passion for the game. So this is a keepalive. This article is suffering because of things that are going on in my life, the utter understatement, imho, by Lyons of Francis' support for Bert. There's got to be some way to get out of this hole. If I had the time I would really like to tackle 1940-1946 from local newspapers. However, I did a respectable job with the bounty stuff which is now (2012) contemporary. This article is all over "bounties" back to 1946-1951 thanks to Ratterman. I am way out in the front on that. I can not do anything, my hands are tied for the next 2 months. Very sad. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 01:01, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

wikipedia is supposed to be a collaboration. Guys, read Ratterman's book. Bounties were not bounties, they were just sophmoric traits or maybe even just some kind of post wwii ptsd thingie. They did not create bounties to injure opponents, per se, they just did it for (this is a talk page so I'll just run and gun) "fun". Sorry. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 01:06, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

keepalive 66.234.33.13 (talk) 00:36, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

keepalive 66.234.33.13 (talk) 04:15, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Criticism of the draft

The draft that Bell implemented was eventually ruled illegal on 2 occassions (Mackey and Yazoo). I absolutely love criticizing Bell because the NFL is just a cheerleading squad. But the Yazoo stuff has to get out of this article because it's not really in context. It has to be explained in the history of the nfl draft. The reason being is that I will have to editorialize in this article. To include that the draft is ruled unconstitutional in this article, 20+ years after he died, is very simply not fair and lacks context which this article can not afford to utilize to explain. Maybe I can come up with a work around and just say it was ruled unconstitutional and then point to a subsection in the history of the draft...But.....that's like really hard to do. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 00:43, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Likewise, its not fair to include Yost saying the draft was the best thing since slice bread in his book because his book was published in 2006. If I include Yost, then I have to include opinions of federal judges. What I can include is Paul Brown, Red Grange and a host of other contemporary witness that keep the discussion in context. Errr...lemme rethink...I can always, always include Lyons and Lyons refers to Yost so...maybe Yost is fair to use. I will have to reevaluate. Anything Lyons says is pertinent; he's the biographer 66.234.33.8 (talk) 21:21, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

keepalive 66.234.33.8 (talk) 02:10, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Keepalive 66.234.33.8 (talk) 23:08, 20 January 2012 (UTC) keepalive 66.234.33.8 (talk) 01:08, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

keepalive 66.234.33.13 (talk) 04:16, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Deleting duplicate citations 20111108

duplicate citations are being deleted and the citations are stored in a copy under (cf. Authorname page number) 66.234.33.8 (talk) 16:35, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

keepalivce 66.234.33.13 (talk) 00:37, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

keepalive 66.234.33.13 (talk) 04:16, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Bert Bell and Phoenixville

I have utterly hammered the idea in this article and the Union article that Bell played for Union. It's not true. He was the head linesman for the game. See the further reading section. Also every single solitary citation in the union article is a dead link. Also, that article has blatant inaccuracies. Bell formed his own team in 1920, but he disbanded it because of the Black Sox Scandal. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 02:04, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

keepalive. I do not want anyone saying Bell played against Thorpe as Lyons suggests. That looks to be inaccurate. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 01:07, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

keepalive 66.234.33.13 (talk) 00:37, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

keepalive 66.234.33.13 (talk) 04:17, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

, Time Magazine (11/29/1954)

Why did I use this as a citation for his name? Ijustreadbooks (talk) 21:30, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

this is a dump of number of television sets because ...long story

Also, although there was only about 60,000 sets in the country,<ref>Powers, 1984, p. 46. (cf. Coenen 153)</ref> he was given the task of approving each TV announcer, before they could be employed to announce a game.<ref name="Lyons, 2010, pp. 132-133.">Lyons, 2010, pp. 132-133.</ref> However, each NFL franchise was empowered to market its own games with television broadcasting companies.<ref name="Lyons, 2010, pp. 132-133."/><ref name="Coenen, 2005, p. 153.">Coenen, 2005, p. 153.</ref> Ijustreadbooks (talk) 03:31, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Archive dump of salary increase of 1951 which is not important

Also, Bell's salary was increased again for the remainder of his contract.<ref>{{cite news | title = Pro Teams End Draft; Give Bert Bell Raise | date = 1951-01-20 | url = http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=KhVPAAAAIBAJ&sjid=K04DAAAAIBAJ&dq=bert%20bell&pg=4372%2C2006981 | work = [[St. Petersburg Times]] | pages = 19 }}; cf. Lyons: 174-175</ref>Ijustreadbooks (talk) 03:11, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

reversed course, no source

<!--missing a source here, clearly someone got to him and said the DOJ's had no case so he reversed course; Judges of that era were always blabbering (it was probably someone to GPM--> blatantly obvious someone got to him Ijustreadbooks (talk) 04:06, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Archive Radovich vs NFL July 12 2012

Furthermore, the Court delineated a disparity in American professional sports which the Court said was "unrealistic, inconsistent, or illogical"; professional baseball was exempt from antitrust laws, but other professional sports were not.<ref name="NYT on antitrust exemption for baseball">{{cite news | url=http://www.nytimes.com/1999/12/19/sports/backtalk-from-hearst-to-stern-the-shaping-of-an-industry-over-a-century.html |title=Backtalk; From Hearst to Stern: The Shaping of an Industry Over a Century |author=Burton, Rick |date=December 19, 1999 |work=The New York Times}}</ref><ref name="Tuscaloosa compares baseball and football antitrust">{{cite web | url=http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=PRsfAAAAIBAJ&sjid=3pkEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7098,6475798&dq=bert+bell&hl=en |title=Pro Football Would Welcome Probe, Says NFL Commissioner Bert Bell |date=February 26, 1957}}</ref><ref name="HJH-0006, 1957, p. 1.">U.S. House Committee I, 1957, p. 1.</ref> The Court suggested it was Congress's responsibility to legislate uniformity across all of professional sports.<ref name="RUCK, p. 293."/> Congress immediately scheduled hearings on the ramifications of the ruling.

The word "Furthermore" indicates off-topicIjustreadbooks (talk) 01:16, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Pittsburgh Steelers section comments

I was asked to perform a peer review for the Pittsburgh Steelers section of this article. My comments are below:

• What is the "Pennsylvania Polka"? Is that a nickname for the team swap Bell and Thompson did? That needs to be clarified in the article, like "In December 1940, in what was called (or "considered") the "Pennsylvania Polka," Bell negotiated..."
• "Bell and Rooney became equal partners in the Steelers after Rooney bought a half interest in Bell's Eagles(REF) before they subsequently swapped franchises with Thompson.(REF)" needs to be reworded in respect to the "after" and "before" in the same sentence.
• The "S" in "Same old Steelers" should be lowercase or lowercase in brackets like this: "[s]ame" ?
• Should "patriots" be in quotations in the article?
• The third sentence of the second paragraph may need to be broken up.

Overall the section is very informative and well-researched, but some areas need to be cleaned up. Eagles 24/7 (C) 05:32, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

I am going to read the whole page over several times and then come bother you again. That's too many mistakes to have in one section. I just chopped 40% bytes of History of the NFL out of this article. I probably went too fast. 66.234.33.13 (talk) 01:28, 16 July 2012 (UTC)