Talk:History of English

Beowulf

While it is probably reasonable to describe Beowulf as the "most famous surviving work from the Old English period", I question the sense of describing it as a "fragment" (of what longer piece is the poem as we know it a "fragment"?) and the statement "it is thought to have been substantially modified, probably by Christian clerics long after its composition" is surely just wrong. Or, well, perhaps someone, somewhere thinks that, though I am sure most reputable sources discussing the issue will observe that Beowulf was in fact composed by Christian clerics (albeit drawing on various earlier materials, the nature of which have been, and are, fiercely debated in the scholarship); see, for example, the famous Tolkien essay, etc. While it is probably worth mentioning the poem itself as a famous example of literature from a particular period of the English language's history, I think it would be wise to remove the description of the poem as a "fragment", and leave the issue of the work's composition for the Beowulf article itself, as neither issue really offers much to the current article on the history of the language. Carlsefni (talk) 19:01, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Hengest'n'Horsa

This article refers to Hengest and Horsa in such a way that the casual reader might well assume there was no question regarding their general historicity -- which, I think, most contemporary Anglo-Saxon historians would agree there is. Admittedly, it does preface the identification of "Angles led by Hengest and Horsa" with the phrase "according to the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle", though that qualification might not be a sufficiently bold caveat to those unfamiliar with the ASC's often doubtful historicity for the more pre-Alfredian entries. Likewise, the statement "We can be certain that Germanic settlement in Britain was not intensified until the time of Hengist and Horsa in the 5th century" suggests more certainty about the historicity of Hengest and Horsa than is perhaps justified. The actual Wikipedia article on Hengist and Horsa itself at least admit in passing these problem with historicity (e.g. perhaps more circumspectly describing Hengest as "semi-legendary"), so perhaps the History of the English language article should likewise be at least so cautious. Or, perhaps better, I suspect that all reference to Hengest and Horsa could be removed from this article without impairing any readers' ability to gain a basic understanding of the history of the English language. That might actually be simpler. Carlsefni (talk) 13:41, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

These figures are quite obviously mythical, and I know of no modern scholar specializing in this area that sees them as anything more than a reflex of twin horse deities directly stemming from Proto-Indo-European religion. :bloodofox: (talk) 12:34, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Use modern language =

Please see Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#Feedback request and Wikipedia:Use modern language.
-- Wavelength (talk) 04:15, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Huh?? - BilCat (talk) 20:53, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Article title

While "History of English" may be unambiguous to fluent speakers of English, it can be misinterpreted by less fluent speakers. As such' I've reverted the undiscussed move of History of the English language to History of English made in April 2009. Please use the formal move request process if you feel "History of English" is a more approriate title. - BilCat (talk) 20:53, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Milton

May I point out that Milton, with his florid, Latinate syntax whose influence was not greatly felt by subsequent English literature is not the best example of Early Modern English? I know it seems obvious, but why not use a passage of Shakespeare? --Peter Farago (talk) 03:51, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Celtic Hypothesists

There should be a link to the study into Celtic influence in English for which there is a good body of work and plenty of ongoing research. So in the Old English section, following the paragraph on the Norse influence:- Some scholars attribute the simplifications in Old English, in part, to the influence of a Celtic substratum in England. --Fodbynag (talk) 05:57, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

There's this paper called Standard Average European and the Celticity of English intensifiers and reflexives: some considerations and implications by Erich Poppe. It basically discusses about the Celticity of the English language in a big Eurolinguistic picture. Komitsuki (talk) 05:35, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Myres

For the moment I have removed this.

Modern scholarship considers most of this story to be legendary and politically motivated, and the identification of the tribes with the Angles, Saxons and Jutes is no longer accepted as an accurate description , especially since the Anglo-Saxon language is more similar to the Frisian languages (some Frisians emigrated in Britain in the 3rd century) than any of the others.

The reference does not seem to support the text. Myres page 46 Is this just a citation error? Anyway, I'm not sure that all modern scholars discount the description of Angles, Saxons and Jutes. Anyone know what was meant, and how it can be supported? Rjm at sleepers (talk) 08:23, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

60% of the modern English vocabulary from Old French

"About 60% of the modern English vocabulary comes directly from Old French." The source given for this sentence is a joke, isn't it? Moreover, I doubt that 60 % of modern English vocabulary (Which vocabulary? Just the basic vocab or really the entire vocabulary?) comes from French. A big proportion was borrowed from Latin and, to a lesser extent, from Ancient Greek, especially in scientific and elevated language. I will remove this sentence until someone comes up with a more credible number and a more reliable source.--Colomen (talk) 14:49, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

"The English language once had an extensive declension system similar to Latin, modern German or Icelandic."

Modern German doesn't have any noun-declension to speak of. Old English's declension was richer than modern German's, less rich than Latin's. 'similar to that of Icelandic' should be enough. 78.49.198.25 (talk) Wojciech Żełaniec —Preceding undated comment added 09:15, 12 January 2012 (UTC).

Gildas

Gildas wrote that the Saxons were eliminated from Britain 44 years and one month before he wrote. He does not mention any other Germanic invasions having happened after this one. He is dated to the early 6th Century. No successful Germanic conquests of Britain therefore until after he wrote. The "Hengist and Horsa" attempt failed miserably. This is a well-known fact among scholars of Gildas.

Bede is the first to mention Hengist and Horsa, which he tacks onto Gildas' story of the Saxon invasions of Kent, which he otherwise in the main plagiarizes/retells. However, he changes the story so the Saxons are not wiped out, and instead of being wiped out, they bring over their other German friends from all over the North Sea, and flood Britain with colonists. Bede does not specify in any way how this was done. He does not list any names, dates, or events associated with the spread of the Anglo-Saxons outside of Kent. Anyhow, it is Bede who tells us that the Germanic settlement of Britain happened mostly after the Hengist and Horsa event, and not Gildas.

Dominant Language of Sub-Roman Britain was Latin and not Brythonic

Gildas makes it clear that Latin is the language of the Britons. He calls it "nostra lingua." Brythonic was no longer was the language of the majority or dominant group by his time.

Latin was the language of commerce, politics and religion however it is wrong to suggest that Latin replaced Brythonic. Brythonic words were used for towns, rivers, forts and islands (see The Place-names of Roman Britain by River and Smith for example). Also Brythonic survived into the middle ages in parts of England(see Coates, et al. Celtic Voices English Places Studies of the Celtic Impact on Place-Names in England). Peoples names also continued to largely be Celtic or a Latin/ Celtic hybrid. Even in the Saxon period several of the kings of Wessex had Anglicised Celtic names.Wilfridselsey (talk) 17:47, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

For the South-East this is an assumption, Latin is not an assumption for this time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kozushi (talk • contribs) 01:00, 15 June 2012 (UTC) Of course Brythonic was spoken still in Britain, but the evidence for its prevalence in the South East in the Late Empire is weak or non-existent. It was of course much more widespread than today, or in the later Middle Ages. Latin was the main culprit initially in displacing Brythonic. Then, German displaced Latin. Then Danish and Norman French almost displaced English but ended up not doing so. If Brythonic were so prevalent, Gildas would have left some kind of hint of it, but instead he calls Latin "Nostra Lingua." Compare this with Bede who is very clear on what language is the language of the English - English! :)

No it is not an assumption, it is a theory based on the evidence I have already outlined above. I don't think anyone can be sure what language was spoken at home by the British but the amount of Brythonic loan words floating about during Roman times supports the theory that it could have been Celtic. As far as the SE is concerned, remember that most of it initially was a client Roman state headed by the Celtic chief, Cogidubnus. Do you think that he would have been speaking Latin at home? Gildas was believed to have come from northen Roman Britain and possibly moved to the west country at some stage and therefore had no first hand knowledge of the SE, he was probably making a few assumptions to support his sermon. Wilfridselsey (talk) 09:05, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Cogidubnus lived and died 400 years before our time in question! Sure, he spoke some kind of Celtic language, but were the people living in the Southeast of Britain still speaking a Celtic language after 400 years of Roman domination? Maybe, but there is no proof of it. There is, however, lots of proof for Latin. The Gauls were still speaking their Celtic languages in 46 AD too (Cogidubnus' time) but not a lot were in Gildas' time - they were speaking either Late Latin or Frankish. The Romans did quite a number on the Celtic cultures they conquered. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kozushi (talk • contribs) 14:00, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

This is not a forum where you can argue about this. We would need modern sources for this meeting our criteria at WP:RS - not blogs, for a start. Dougweller (talk) 16:05, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out Doug. However, if people actually read what I wrote I was actually agreeing that Latin was the Linga Franca, and it is up for debate what extent that Brythonic continued to be used at home or elsewhere. Scholars are divided on this so we should reflect that and not push a specific POV. Wilfridselsey (talk) 10:39, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Germanics in the Roman Empire (Including Britain) in Roman Times

There is lots of evidence for German speakers all over the late Empire in the West. Their numbers are estimated at millions. There was an entire Roman province, Germania, which was fully German speaking. Much of North and East Gaul was German speaking. Germanic graves are found starting in the 2nd Century A.D. in Britain. Contact between German and Latin speakers was most intense within the Empire and not without it. It is misleading to state that the Latin borrowings were only as a result of contact by non-Roman Germans trading and fighting with the Romans. While this could have been the way some words arrived, many more were undoubtedly due to the Germans living within the borders, many of whom had some Latin fluency.

I'm sure you are aware that we rely upon sources that are considered reliable by the criteria at WP:RS, and those must directly discuss the subject of the article. You may be right but we'll need sources. Dougweller (talk) 16:08, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Start here with other Wikipedia pages: Germania Inferior; Germania Superior. These are pretty large areas, filled with German tribes, inside the Roman Limes. It's common knowledge stuff - here was the most intense interaction between Germans and Romans. The guys in Sweden and Denmark were not learning their Latin up there. They were learning it from the guys who learned from the Romans. These guys learned it from the Romans where they lived with the Romans.

Please read WP:INDENT and indent your posts, and sign them with 4 tildes, eg ~~~~. We don't use our own articles as sources. Dougweller (talk) 09:13, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Paradise Lost

The text of Paradise Lost being used to illustrate Early Modern English was actually from a modern edition with punctuation, capitalization, and spelling changed to fit modern usage standards. This may be appropriate if our goal is to read the poem, but is clearly inappropriate if our goal is to illustrate Early Modern English. I've replaced it with the actual text of the 1677 edition from Wikisource.