User talk:Maria0333

Clue Bot commons

Hi Maria0333, I saw your message at ClueBot Commons and had a look at your edits to Rawalpindi. I can see you are breaking up paragraphs and consolidating info, but the edit that ClueBot NG reverted removed some references, which may have been what triggered the bot, and also had a line starting with a space, which renders as typescript in a grey box and with no line-wrapping, and you had one picture of a market appearing twice (you appear to have wanted to reposition it but to have forgotten to remove the original line). Please use the preview button so you can see and fix the format problems before saving the edit. I suggest not removing references; fit the info and the ref into your new version. And as someone else pointed out in an edit summary after you resumed working on the article, you have been breaking templates; avoid changing material that appears between {{ and }}, especially removing one of those two or making a paragraph break. Again, the preview button would have shown you the resulting red text indicating a problem. The other editor also asked you to leave edit summaries; this helps others to see what you are trying to do so they can help. I hope this helps explain why you've been reverted and that you will now be able to improve the article. Thanks for your effort to do so! Yngvadottir (talk) 18:49, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

BLOG OF FRIENDS BY KYRSTEN

Bold text For hailey..... sup? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kikiiscool1234 (talk • contribs) 23:38, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

A kitten for you!

=

Pervaizish (talk) 21:31, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

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Siraiki

Hi Maria,

Re: Siraiki language, the dialects are from Masica (1991). Is the one you changed the same as Jhangvi dialect, do you think? It would be nice to get a citation for that. — kwami (talk) 06:57, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Thalochi

Thanks for your great contributions to Wikipedia Language Articles. You being a true professional referring Mascica. But there is an aspect we should give due consideration is what the locals feel about their dialect because the are better Judge of how much their dialect approximates with any Language. So please check various district local web sites and give them as a reference on those articles. That will be a graet help. Please tell me your email because I will send you some important Microsoft excel data. sheets if u like. Maria0333 (talk) 07:06, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Sure.

How locals feel about their language is only relevant to sociolinguistics. I had a friend, a native speaker of English, who insisted that English was a Romance language, and that I was ridiculous for thinking it was Germanic. Just because someone speaks a language doesn't mean they know anything about its classification.

I am concerned about Jangvi, as Masica doesn't go into detail. — kwami (talk) 07:15, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

You are talking about one individual (Your Friend) but I am talking about Million of locals. Can we ignor them. You are reverting and trying to engage me an edit war but I will not revert them now. But I expect that you will realize and will do some research on Local web sites. Linguistic books present new theory after every few years but we need to check ground realities through local resources. You are a professional so I respect you.Maria0333 (talk) 07:23, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Local opinion is only a source for local opinion. For a linguistic claim we need a linguistic source. That's just how an encyclopedia works. People can be extraordinarily ignorant about their language, and millions of people just means millions who can be ignorant. Similarly, we wouldn't use local opinion for the nutritional value of the food they eat, nor about the mineral composition of the soil they till: what they believe may be very different from what is demonstrable. (In the US, for a long time people thought the soil in the Midwest was poor, when it's actually quite rich.) The basics our our sourcing policy is at WP:RS.

Also, what you're calling "edit warring" is me reverting you when you say the same thing twice, or moving minor detail out of the first sentence. — kwami (talk) 07:37, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

I agree with basics of sourcing policy at WP:RS thats why i am asking you to please help these articles by adding local reliable sources. People could be confused about Food/ Soil contents but when a local can visit Lahore or Multan he can easily assess about the mutual intangibility of his dialect with language spoken in those cities because it is not a rocket science. Hope you will buy my point. Maria0333 (talk) 07:49, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Maria, I hope you understand that "local" and "reliable source" are actually contradictory for almost any linguistic topid under WP:RS guidelines. To take your example at face value, I could drive to the airport, catch a couple planes, and end up in Scotland tomorrow, where I can find individuals who are completely incomprehensible to me, even though they are speaking the English language. In that case, my subjective assessment that the Scotsman is speaking another language is completely erroneous, we just speak such vastly divergent dialects that we can't understand each other, even though there are many dialects with which both of us would be able to communicate with absolutely no reduced comprehension. Locals are, in fact, incredibly stupid about their language, largely because a person's experience of their language is so prejudiced towards their local dialect. An example of the last would be for me, as a speaker of Pacific Northwest English, I would say that /t/ is not allowed in the coda, even though this is demonstrably false in almost every other English dialect. VanIsaac_{WS Vex}^contribs 08:50, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Actually fault lies with us (linguistics) because we ignore the difference of definition of Language and definition of a dialect...Language means a totally incomprehensible for example English and Urdu. Although Urdu is actually a mix of many languages including English and lexical similarity is nearly 25% but it is of no use because there is no mutual intelligibility that why URDU is a different language from English. But when Geirision or Masica try to classify Chateesgarhi as a separate language then local people like us use to laugh because these are 80% comprehensible to us (Urdu/Hindi Speakers) and in fact a dialect with around 65% lexical similarity. Similarly Northern most Punjabi dialect Dogri is mutually intangible and comprehensible with southern most Derawali dialect of Punjabi. But out of blue moon in 1920 here comes Sir Geirison in India Pakistan and conduct a survey and divide Hindi/Urdu in to ten languages and Punjabi in to 2 languages one Eastern Punjabi other western Punjabi for which he just for seek of his self connivance uses the Punjabi word 'LAHNDA' which means Western. At the sudden LAHNDA emerges as a Language ignoring the fact that people of eastern and western dialects have no problem of calling them selves Punjabi and can easily communicate with each other. They failed to convince others what they are doing out of 200 words comparisons that's why every other person is not accepting these fake classifications. Examples Dhani, Pothohari, Shahpuri, Jhangvi, Jaangli, Chenavari, Thalochi People never accept these research and claim themselves as punjabi. Few exceptions are Southern dialects Multani Dera wali and Riasti (Bahawalpuri) who in 1964 after reading these researches under an political agenda (The wish to DEGRADE lahore The Capital Of Punjab against MULTAN because its older city then Lahore). So agenda was a separate identity creation with the name of Saraiki (Suddenly emerged in 1964) and to create a separate province (which could not be made till date). So Saraiki is claimed as a separate language not on the basis of Mutual intangibility but a matter of SOCIO POLITICO GAME. Similarly Hindko is extremly close to Punjabi of Lahore. But again the socio political game (Hindko is spoken in a Punjab's rival province KPK where Pashto speakers are in majority who call hindko as Punjabi and ask them to leave KPK, that's why Hindko people Claim and say NO NO we are not Punjabi we speak a separate language and they put forward Geirison research forward. So Hinko and Saraiki people today agree with these research but all other Punjabi Urdu/Hindi dialect people do not accept fake classifications. I call it fake because in Gerison research he says LAHNDA as separate language on the basis of 3 grounds. Number 1. Phonology. Punjabi 'B' 'D' with breath going out LAHNDA 'B' and 'D' breath going in. 'Bh', 'Gh' (Lahnda) = 'P', 'K' (Punjabi). QUESTION ARISES ARE THESE MAJOR DIFFERENCES? Number 2. Future and Past Tense. In Punjabi all the structure of Future is same as LAHNDA, only difference is the 'GA' in the end is replaced by 'S' in the middle. example KHA AN GAA= KHA S AN. In the past tense 'S' in the start is replaced by 'H' in the end example Mea Saan= Mea Haan. QUESTION AGAIN ARISES ARE THESE MAJOR DIFFRENCES? Number three: 5% Verbs/vocabulary minor borrowings from neighboring languages (Punjabi from Urdu and Lahanda from Sindhi) which is a natural practice by every language different dialects i.e. . Examples To Go= Vnj in sindhi and lahnda= Ja in Urdu and Punjabi. So we (Linguists) fail because we ignore the basic concepts of what is a language and what is a dialect. we are more calculators rather then real world ground reality analyzers. Thats why Govt of india recently rejected gierison work as not reliable one and has announced a fresh Language Research. U can search it on internet for ready reference. HOPE 2 CONVINCE YOU BECAUSE I HAVE SOUND GROUNDS FOR ALL THIS Maria0333 (talk) 17:56, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

The lang/dialect question is a problem all over the world, not just in India. When that research is out, we can cite it as well.

BTW, Ethnologue divides up Indian dialects into an ever larger number of languages. Where I have linguistic sources that merge them, I've been doing that, which is why we sometimes get a dozen ISO codes for a single language. On the other hand, in many cases we have a single ISO code for a dozen languages which people insist are the same, despite not being able to understand one another. It' very difficult to apply the same criterion to all the languages of the world, because no one source evaluates them all.

Masica notes that no-one has ever enumerated Indian languages on the basis on mutual intelligibility. People have tried, but there are three problems: There are few dividing lines in a dialect continuum like Indic (but I doubt most people would accept that Sindhi and Bengali are the same language); there is a lot of unidirectional intelligibility; and there are a lot of cases where people insist they can understand each other, but that's only because of passive bilingualism. These problems have defeated past attempts at determining languages based on true mutual intelligibility. — kwami (talk) 21:58, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

You are very right. I am a young professor in NUML (National University of Modern Languages). I dont say any one wrong or correct but in my humble opinion whenever a situation like Indo Pak arises we should follow a two step approach. Step 1. Determine lexical similarity of Morphological, and syntactical similar dialects on the basis of larger vocabulary (800-1000 Words ) comparison and if it is above 65% then Step 2. Conduct a survey of nearly 300-500 less mobile rural people with a definite question CAN YOU COMMUNICATE WITH LAHORIS (FOR EXAMPLE) IN YOUR OWN LANGUAGE? If Survey result is more then 50 % as YES then those dialects are not separate languages. And you trust me Hindko and Punjabi are nearly 95% same because when i see a hindko drama on TV I try to locate the differences and I end up with nearly nothing. People of Hindko area watch APNA a punjabi channel as their first choice over other channels. For Saraiki its also nearly 90% to Punjabi. I am telling u because I am a local and In my opinion being a linguist and local I am the best person to Judge these things which a foreign Linguist or A local Lay man can not Judge. Potowari-Pahari is how ever is the most divergent Punjabi dialect as compare to two above because it involves Dardic (Kashmiri Vocabulary injections but still it is easily mutually intangible with Majhi. Interestingly foreign Linguistics classify URDU and HINDI as different languages on the basis that there writing system is different and Hindi has SANSKRIT VOCABULARY and URDU has PERSIAN and ARABIC vocabulary. But THEY ignore the same rule for BENGALI (INDIA vs BANGLA DESH) and Punjabi (INDIA vs PAKISTAN). For Dhani Shahpuri,Jandali,Riasti Jaangli, Jhangvi, Thalochi very very important aspect which is being ignored. Gerison came before IRRIGATION SYSTEM was set so the area was known as Jungle baar or Thal/Choolistan desert with sparse population but in 1930's land was converted to cultivated area by Majhi settlers so demography changed so the dialects got to a closer and adjusted to a hybrid form. 1947 Post partition of indo Pak. Hindu and Sikh locals (Jhangvi/Jaangli/Thalochi...) shifted to India and they were replaced by Muslim Standard Punjabi settlers so demography again changed and further hybridization took place. Thats why these dialect people are now very close to Majhi and consider them self as Punjabi. Even today the land in Thal and Choolistan deserts are being allotted to Majhi farmers. So slowly the things are even further closing down. Another fact is that it is a modern era of mass transportation so as the mobility between LAHORE the capital and Locals is increasing the language through out Pakistani Punjab is in a process of uniformity. Last but not the least Punjabi is derived from Name Punjab. The name "Punjab" means "five waters" in Persian (punjab) and refers to Indus River and its tributaries. So Had Only Majhi been the Punjabi then shouldnt it be called DOabi because Majhi is restricted to 2 rivers. Today the ground reality is that Punjabi has two Major groups; 1. Eastern Punjabi dialects (Malwi, Powadi , Doabi etc) spoken in India with different culture, religion, writing system and Sansikrat and Hindi vocablary. 2. Western HYBRIDIZED Punjabi which comprise of modern Majhi (which has injections of old LAHNDA dialects) and Modern Hybrid Lahnda dialects (Potowari, Dhani, Shahpuri, Multani, Riasti, Derawali, Jhangvi, Jaangli etc) spoken in old Lahnda areas. All these dialects are spoken in Pakistani Punjab area and have common culture, religion, writing system and Persian and Arabic vocabulary. Today all Pakistani Punjab is as close as never in terms of mutual understandably. A very fresh survey will show this fact i am dead sure. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maria0333 (talk • contribs) 17:05, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

It seems to me that the official language of India is Urdu. They just don't like calling it that. And we do have a single article on Hindustani language. The problem with accepting the opinions of local editors, however, is that tomorrow we may get someone who insists just the opposite. It would be great if you could locate some support for this, and not just for Punjabi lects, but for Bhili, Sindhi, Gujarati, Hindi, Bihari, Oriya, Bangla-Assamese, etc. I'd have no objection to merging their dialects into the main articles, but I'd want to be sure we don't just end up splitting them up again in a year.

You speak of mutual intelligibility of Siraiki and Majhi, but wouldn't the same be true of Siraiki and Sindhi? Of Sindhi and Gujarati? There are intermediate dialects between all the major languages, so yes, you can take a Panjabi-centric view, but if you took a Sindhi-centered view you'd end up with different "languages", with no good way to decide between the two results. — kwami (talk) 20:47, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for sharing such useful thoughts. Actually I can speak almost all Pakistani Major Languages i,e, Urdu, Punjabi (All dialects including So called languages Hindko Saraiki and Pothohari), Sindhi, Pashto (North and south dialects), Brahvi (A Dravidian language spoken in Baluchistan), Little bit Balochi and Persion. I am good in English and in child hood i have hobby of learning languages so i learnt little bit Arabic, French, German and few others . I have a collection of more then 50 different language's learning books in my library. Because I know Sindhi very well so let me tell u that Saraiki is actually the word of sindhi which means Head side dialect. Throughout history the northern 10 District of Sindh Province were called Saraiki. which was in fact Sindhi Saraiki. THe punjab's saraiki emerged in 1964. Punjab's Saraiki is very different from Sindhi. Although it have some vocabulary sharing with sindhi. If you see the map u will be clear why i am saying this because First major Sindhi settlement in North is Ghotki on east side of indus river and Last major settlement of Riasti Saraiki/punjabi had been Rahim yaar khan (Before new settlement of Majhi Punjabi people in saqidabad near Sindh border). The distance between Ghotki and Rahim yar khan is 120 KM with very less population because of Desert around. So historically the space between Riasti and Sindhi Saraiki never allowed a common transitional dialect. But on west side of River Indus Dera wali of Rajan pur is bit more closer to sindhi saraiki. Dera wali is spoken in three districts (Rajan pur,D G Khan and Muzzafargarh) NOTE this division is the only division where Majhi settlers (15%) are least in population and ethnically Balouch tribes are living. So Derawali is not hybridized much. Thalochi and Riasti are so much hybridized with Majhi due to new settlements and cultivation of Thal and Choolistan that Riasti and Thalochi people has rejected to be part of Proposed new Saraiki Province. Multani the standard dialect of Saraiki is in fact closest by distance and in terms of closeness to majhi and Multan division has in fact Majhi majority as per 1998 Census. Ratio between Punjabi,Saraiki and Haryanvi in Multan division is 51:36:13 Respectively. So very obviously hybridization taking effect on multani. You are right Hindustani is Urdu but typical Indian ego. U marked Jhangvi/Jaangli/Chenavari/Rachnavi as unclassified dialect but actually it is the source of punjabi heritage for example it is credited with the creation of the famous epic Punjabi romance stories of Heer Ranjha and Mirza Sahiba. As i told u about the continuous hybridization These dialects in 2013 are very much close to Majhi as compare to 1920's and these are going to get more closer because of the fact that most of people of these dialect work in factories of Lahore and Faisalabad. Inter provincial transfers has also changed the demography that's why Sahiwal Okara and Pak Pattan district people opted out of Multan Division in to a new Division. when ever saraiki nationalist try to claim the areas above multan as saraikistan they are out rightly rejected by Khanewal Vehari Jhang Toba Tek singh Chaniot Sahiwal Okara Pakpattan Sargodha Khaushab Chakwal and Mianwali's people. Their language was niether part of Southren Lahnda (Saraiki) but the standard Lahnda and today's Hybridized forms of Standard Lahnda (Jhangvi/Jaangli/Chenavari/Rachnavi/Shahpuri) are even more divergent from so called Saraiki Language. You know when ever Majhi vocabulary is different from Lahnda dialects. it is basically due to urdu borrowings. Today Urdu is effecting all Pakistani local Languages so that process is also converting Lahnda dialects vocabulary in to Urdu so ultimately more closer to Majhi. IN MY OPINION clear cut indo aryan languages are Bangali, Punjabi, Sindhi, Gujrati, Marhati,Hindi/Urdu, Oriya, Nepali, Kashmiri and Assamees. Other minors and dialects claimed as languages are neither recognized officially in india nor in Pakistan.Maria0333 (talk) 18:58, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

As a linguist, I could care less what's official. That's simply political fashion. Officially, Urdu and Manak Hindi are different languages. What I'd be interested in is which of these minor unofficial varieties are unintelligible to others. You could have a village of 100 people who insist their variety is a mere dialect of something else, but if you're a speaker of that something and move to that village and after a couple weeks of osmosis still can't understand it, then it's a different language no matter what people say. There's also the matter of history: two languages may have separated long ago, but due to mutual influence are now seen as being quite similar. Yet to the historical linguist their differences may be substantial. Anyway, it would be nice to get some better research on this. Ethnologue tends to go overboard, but relying on official status is also inadequate. — kwami (talk) 21:55, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

I actually said that in my opinion after comparing and listening to various indo aryan dialects i can easily judge that Actual Language Level could be given to above mentioned list.Dravidian and others not included by me because i am not in a position to compare and understand them. Bhilli however could also be in this list but not bahari. As far as Punjabi and relevant dialect articles are concerned I am very clear about it and it should be grouped as I am making edits on relevant pages. Please Check them and we can discuss and readjust them.Maria0333 (talk) 03:32, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with that, since you appear to be relying on objective criteria. However, there's a potential problem: We have lots of language activists at the Indo-Pakistani articles, so how do we defend your changes when they start edit warring with you, insisting that Siraiki (or whatever) is a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT LANGUAGE ITS NOT RELATED TO PANJABI AT ALL STOP CULTURAL GENOCIDE OF THE SIRAIKI PEOPLE!!!!!!!!! Okay, maybe a milder version of that that isn't so obviously whacko. How do we justify treating Siraiki as a dialect of Panjabi, to editors or admins who know nothing of the topic, when people insist that it's a separate language, and use references to Ethnologue or Masica to support their argument? — kwami (talk) 03:40, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for treating me objective. I actually understand the Nationalist and Socio political editors so i will do it in a way in which It will present two way picture for example Saraiki is a language as per this this and this however it is also considered as Punjabi dialect as per this this and this. So that all the contrasting views could be covered effectively. Please give me 24 hours so that i can work out appropriate and objective edits. Then you review them because your professional guidance is very important for me. I believe in true professionalism which I could only achieve with a stronger coordination with professionals like you. Maria0333 (talk) 04:14, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Well, I don't know the languages, and I don't know the lit, so I'll trust your judgement. I've been trying to get at least schematic coverage of all the world's languages on WP, but had kept away from Indic because there were such obvious problems. Finally this past week I came back; Lahnda was the last real mess within Indic to clean up since I tackled Bhili a couple months ago. (Now, AFAICT, the only family that still needs an overhaul is Austronesian.) But I'm operating largely out of ignorance (I don't know much about Indo-European), so your knowledge is invaluable. I'll try to leave the articles alone unless you need my input on something. — kwami (talk) 04:25, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for trusting my local knowledge. Unfortunately I was suffering with fever for one and half day so I was not able to make valuable editing to the related articles, but i have tried a bit. Hope to make more useful inputs. Your efforts for world languages are incredible and your critical reviews are very important and valuable for me. BEST REGARDS Maria0333 (talk) 18:13, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Please move the article, as you did to Lahnda (Western Punjabi). Don't cut & paste: that loses the article history. — kwami (talk) 18:47, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

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March 2013

Hello, I'm Faizan. I wanted to let you know that I undid one of your recent contributions to Baloch nationalism and Balochistan, Pakistan because it didn't appear constructive. First of all, Language has nothing to do with nationalism, and it does not tell about any aspect of nationalism in Balochistan. Secondly, the image should be in the language section, and don't make it too large. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Faizan Faizan (talk) 07:46, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Hello, Maria0333. You have new messages at Faizan Al-Badri's talk page.
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Baloch Nationalism

Yes behna ye hui na baat! Urdu: شاباش You did a good edit here!. Anyway sister, mein ne image ka size thora kam kar diya hai! Buhat Buhat Shukriya! Faizan (talk) 10:55, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Request is for this and here Please! If you have made an image, then very good! But please! Don't violate Wikipedia priority and Article rules, First of all, language is not more Important that other things such as History, etc. Secondly put your image in lanuage ethnicity section only. Hope you understand, and we can save our time. Regards. Faizan (talk) 15:06, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Try to understand. You should read message of Samar also upside. Faizan (talk) 15:08, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Notice of Edit warring noticeboard discussion

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion involving you at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring regarding a possible violation of Wikipedia's policy on edit warring. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Faizan Al-Badri (talk • contribs) 11:58, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

You have been blocked from editing for a period of 24 hours for edit warring. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make useful contributions. If you think there are good reasons why you should be unblocked, you may appeal this block by adding below this notice the text {{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}, but you should read the guide to appealing blocks first.

During a dispute, you should first try to discuss controversial changes and seek consensus. If that proves unsuccessful, you are encouraged to seek dispute resolution, and in some cases it may be appropriate to request page protection.  ~Amatulić (talk) 12:09, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Also, edit summaries like this suggest a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality that has no place on Wikipedia. Use the talk pages, not edit summaries, to resolve disputes. That's what talk pages are for. You haven't been using them. ~Amatulić (talk) 12:09, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Please see my further comment at the edit warring report. You may be blocked again if you continue to insert your own personal point of view into article text, as you did here. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 16:18, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

WP objective is to provide true information. It is your perception that I was not neutral but truth should be weighted on reliable references. For reliable references you may use internet searchs to thousand of BSO blogs, Face book pages and other forums and web sites where BSO leaders clearly acknowledge the indian support as friendship gesture to help against common enemy Pkistani government Maria0333 (talk) 16:40, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Web forums are not a reliable source for Wikipedia articles. See WP:Reliable source. You should be looking for books, scholarly articles, newspapers or magazines that might have published something about the Baloch Students Organization. The edit of yours that I cited above is also not clearly worded and it is hard to even understand what you are saying. What does it mean to 'spoil Baloch youth politically for terorism in Balochistan?' India wanted to increase terrorism? Decrease terrorism? And terrorism against whom? EdJohnston (talk) 16:58, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

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Request reason:

I am surprised that I have been blocked but the other party to edit war Faizan Al Badri is un blocked for the same offence. Go to history of Baluchistan Article to see that Faizan first started reverting and he did it 4 to five times up till last one that also from him.I have only twice reverted. I also warned him for edit war that can also be checked in history but he kept teasing me by messaging again and again and also through his sock pupet SAMAR. I think being a girl is inviting such attention seeking editors for petty issues like positioning of a image in an article to such a large scale actions. Justice requested Maria0333 (talk) 17:02, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Decline reason:

WP:NOTTHEM. — Daniel Case (talk) 17:37, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

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If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

Yes, "they're doing it too!" is not generally accepted as a reason to unblock. However, you can nominate them for blocking as well, if they also violated 3RR. — kwami (talk) 20:10, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

I believe in Good Faith edits. I want to follow WP rules but The way things are going I am afraid i will have no option but to leave Wikipedia because I am feeling dejected, how the people doubt my credibility and hurt my dignity Maria0333 (talk) 06:39, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Map image - for your reference

Hi, I am sorry about the timing of this, given that you are currently blocked with regard to warring about another image, but I am currently removing File:Map on Dialects Of Punjabi Language.jpg from the Wikipedia articles where it is currently shown. I will be inserting the following message on all related talk pages

There is currently a deletion discussion taking place at Commons regarding File:Map on Dialects Of Punjabi Language.jpg, which can be viewed here. Regardless of whether the map image is deleted at Commons, I think that it needs to be removed from all English Wikipedia articles because it breaches our synthesis policy. The image creator has provided a long list of sources in the deletion discussion and it is evident from those that none contain all of the information shown in the image, nor is it a simple task to work out which bits of information were gleaned from which source(s). We simply do not permit people to aggregate information in this way. It should also be noted that the chances are very high that the various sources did not even adopt the same methodology in compiling their data, which makes the analysis of the creator even more suspect.

I have removed the image because the Commons discussion may end up as something other than "delete" and yet the thing is still invalid on English Wikipedia.

I realise that you will not like this but we have policies for a reason and I can seen little chance of this image even being modified to be compliant. You may want to consider whether this rationale affects any other maps that you have created: if it does then they, too, are likely to be removed by someone. - Sitush (talk) 18:46, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Well, No one has objected on English Wikipedia so why you not being professional linguist taking extra Head ache and interest. It is not digesting. You better focus on something productive. Additionally who told you that I have synthesized it. I just referred you to books where you can read and verify my map because unfortunately you neither a local nor a linguist so its my duty to guide you through. BEST RegardsMaria0333 (talk) 08:09, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

I objected and I am fairly sure that I've seen someone else object a while before me. The point is, none of the sources you provide contain all of the information and working out which bit comes from which source is a nightmare. I do not think Commons has a policy against synthesizing content and so perhaps this is ok here, but English Wikipedia does and even if the image survives here it will be removed from all the articles on English Wikipedia that currently use it. Whether that leaves it with any value is a matter for this community to consider. My remarks were intended as a "heads-up", a comment on what is going to happen regardless of this deletion discussion. - Sitush (talk) 18:29, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Oh, and I am not sure that all of the various sources have used the same method to arrive at the conclusion that you have aggregated from them. - Sitush (talk) 18:52, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

I again advise you to stay away from an area where you are not an expert. I am a linguist and this work belongs to me as I have indicated in my up load. In my Masters times I read all these books so I referred you to them. You should understand the Fact for example an accountant has his own competence although when ever his Chief executive asks him something about accounting he refers his CEO to books like Maigs and Meigs and Tax ACT etc because those books provided him a base. His own vision or work could not be out rightly rejected because he made a base from such books as a new learner. Applying to my case you cant out rightly reject it. The only option available to some one who thinks that there is a wrong representation in the map which I up loaded ..for example Thalochi dialect in the map then I well come to any changes he proposes as an professional in the areas of Thalochi in the map based on valid arguments Maria0333 (talk) 06:26, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

While welcoming your expertise, I reject your arrogance. I mean, even at the most basic level, your response above is crude because you have absolutely no idea in what, if anything, I might have expertise myself. I could be the world's foremost academic in the field of linguistics for all you know. - Sitush (talk) 16:09, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

By the way, you appear to have copied a prior thread from somwhere else after my opening message in this section. It is really confusing when you do that but do not make it clear. For example, it looks as if I am repeating myself in the same thread and that I have posted the initial message in the wrong place. Please do not do this: you could instead have linked to the other discussion or provided diffs, or you could have made judicious use of some fancy markup to make it clear. Thanks. - Sitush (talk) 16:41, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

You felt me crude and arrogant but you forgot the back ground. You first Proposed maps deletion on Commons and started voting with out a genuine reason. Then before arriving at any consensus. you just started deleting it from Pakistani district pages ignoring the fact that you belong to rival country india. adding fuel to proceedings you by your own self concluded that I have synthesized map which i proved wrong through valid argument again and again. You started editing my Talk page with out professionally discussing on the Commons page the areas of map which in your opinion are wrong representation. I again well come you on professional discussion on the commons page if you are a linguist. Thanks Maria0333 (talk) 17:03, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

You see, here you go again. I do not come from "rival country India", I did not make a proposal "with out a genuine reason", and if you cannot see that you have synthesised that map after reading the policies that I and another have linked then I think your command of written English might make it difficult for you to contribute effectively on this particular version of Wikipedia. Furthermore, I have explained here why the Commons discussion is actually irrelevant to what happens to the maps on Wikipedia: the image could be kept at Commons but would still appear to be inappropriate here. Sorry, but that is how it is. - Sitush (talk) 17:56, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Some thoughts to ponder

Maria, you wrote above "I am feeling dejected, how the people doubt my credibility and hurt my dignity."

It may come as a shock to you, but you have no credibility on Wikipedia. Zero. None. Nor do I, or anyone else. My own expertise isn't relevant, even if I'm editing in my area of expertise.

Simply asserting you're an expert in a field doesn't make it so. Wikipedia has had cases where people claimed expertise and then were exposed as false (an example that comes to mind is a college student posing as a PhD in history). What people say about themselves doesn't matter. Their contributions speak for themselves. So don't be surprised when assertions you make about your own expertise are doubted or ignored.

You gain credibility on Wikipedia not by asserting your credibility, but by demonstrating it through constructive editing, civil discourse free of personal attacks, and compliance with Wikipedia's established policies and guidelines.

So, how have you fared? Let's look at those three points I made in the preceding sentence:

• Constructive editing: You have been edit warring. Read Wikipedia:Edit warring. You seem to be drifting into WP:TENDENTIOUS behavior territory also.
• Civility: You have not been civil, instead you come across as arrogant, choosing to attack others in your unblock request, and even suggesting that those who disagree with you are sexist — those are personal attacks. See Wikipedia:Civility and Wikipedia:No personal attacks.
• Policies and guidelines: You have not been compliant with policies and guidelines, specifically WP:SYNTHESIS as has been pointed out to you; instead you fall back on your self-asserted expertise and order others to stay away, as if that would convince anyone. This behavior is unconvincing and will never achieve your aims.

While expertise helps, expertise is not a requirement to be constructive and productive here. As Wikipedia's founder, Jimmy Wales, has stated: "[I am] perhaps anti-credentialist. To me the key thing is getting it right. And if a person's really smart and they're doing fantastic work, I don't care if they're a high school kid or a Harvard professor...." Expertise is not required because "getting it right" means (among other things) referring to reliable sources without synthesizing conclusions from them.

I urge you to read the policies and guidelines I linked, and I hope to see your continued contributions. ~Amatulić (talk) 16:29, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks a lot. but one thing i want to assure you that I have not synthesized any thing in both of my maps and I have done good faith work very professionally and with good spirit. I would like to follow the rules with my utmost effort in the future. Thanks for giving me courage to again feel as a use full contributor to WP Maria0333 (talk) 17:09, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Your reply above does not sit well with your comment on my talk page of around the same time. - Sitush (talk) 17:47, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Do not edit while logged out

Please log in before editing. The contributions of 39.47.138.143 look remarkably similar to the actions that you threatened to carry out in your recent note on my talk page. Operating in this manner can make it appear that you are trying to avoid scrutiny even if, in fact, you have merely forgotten to log in. - Sitush (talk) 18:08, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

As I told you again and again that I dont want to engage in verbal irrelevant nik nok, you in good spirit better focus on writing valid grounds on common page. If you proved some thing wrong in map then I will accept it with open heart but it appears to me that you lack knowledge about Punjabi dialects and trying to engage me in to verbal war. I never threatened you, I object such wordings. I am reverting your deletions until you develop a consensus on commons for your desired actions. Maria0333 (talk) 18:26, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

No, you are technically violating our policy regarding sockpuppets.

With regard to the map, please could you tell me which source you used. Not a list of sources, as you have already provided, but rather the single source from which you obtained the information that is shown in the map. - Sitush (talk) 18:33, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Discretionary sanctions under WP:ARBIPA

The Arbitration Committee has permitted administrators to impose discretionary sanctions (information on which is at Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions) on any editor who is active on pages broadly related to India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan. Discretionary sanctions can be used against an editor who repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, satisfy any standard of behavior, or follow any normal editorial process. If you continue to misconduct yourself on pages relating to this topic, you may be placed under sanctions, which can include blocks, a revert limitation, or an article ban. The Committee's full decision can be read at the "Final decision" section of the decision page.

Please familiarise yourself with the information page at Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions, with the appropriate sections of Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Procedures, and with the case decision page before making any further edits to the pages in question. This notice is given by an uninvolved administrator and will be logged on the case decision, pursuant to the conditions of the Arbitration Committee's discretionary sanctions system.

Your recent edits suggest a nationalist focus in this topic area and a willingness to insert your personal views into articles, for example at Baloch Students Organization. Please be aware that any administrator may sanction you under WP:AC/DS if your edits appear to violate this Arbitration Committee decision. If you edit in such a way that nobody can discern from your article edits which side you favor, you should be on safe ground. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 18:38, 20 March 2013 (UTC)